Carrying Guns On Campuses For Defense

[Lakemonster]

The VT shooting thread has leaped over into a gun carry debate. So to give that thread its own identity I opened this one to air out everyones thoughts on allowing people to carry a weapon at college campuses for defense of themselves and fellow classmates and faculty.

I made a point that if the RA had been carrying a firearm, then the shootings could have been limited to at least one death.

If a professor or fellow student in the classrooms had a firearm, the death toll could have been ended after 2 deaths.

We have a problem here people, crazy people know that an unarmed area is an easy target. One by one, the security measures that get implaced are easily defeated. What real recourse do we have as citizens seeking an education to adequately defend themselves other than allowing them a fair chance to shoot it out with an attacker if they have to?

[LuxOR541]

keep in mind that there is nothing in VA law that prevents the legal carrying of firearms on university property. the University has enacted it's own rules that allow for expulsion of any student with a weapon, legal or not. The students are de-facto prohibited from carrying.

Legislation that was recently attempted in VA would have prevented the university from enacting such a rule, but it failed.

[KillZedKill]

students should be allowed to carry chain saws for self defense. Now that would be liberating.

[Scheetz]

Well, Ill put it as blunt as I can.


I would not carry concealed if I could fit a police officer in my pocket.

[sabsz]

I think only certain people should be allowed to carry guns...

[Scheetz]

Virginia's Concealed Laws

Where Unlawful to Carry

§18.2-308 (J.3.): No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

§18.2-308 (O.): Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.

§18.2-283: To a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason.

§18.2-283.1: Courthouse.

§18.2-308.1: School property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.

§18.2-287.01: Carrying weapon in air carrier airport terminal.

[Scheetz]

and my homo ass schools rules.

Firearms Policy

Statement
The possession, storage, or use of any kind of
ammunition, firearms, explosives, air rifles, or air pistols
on University owned or operated property is prohibited,
unless authorized in writing by the President upon
recommendation of the University’s Director of Public
Safety. Appropriate sanctions for violations of this policy
will apply.

[.cOLt.45.]

students should be allowed to carry chain saws for self defense. Now that would be liberating.

QFT


Id never attack a muthafucka with a chainsaw

[newsman]

I don't think allowing people to carry concealed weapons is the solution. I think the problem lies in the fact that there was no effective way to allow for a proper background check on Cho Seung-Hui. Cho Seung-Hui was detained and evaluated in a psychiatric facility after several complaints were filed against him. His detention order states; "Pursuant to 37.2.809, [Cho Seung-Hui ] is mentally ill and in need of hospitalization, and present[s] an imminent danger to himself or others..."

Unless I'm mistaken, the law in Virginia states that no one that has been ordered to undergo psychiatric evaluation should be issued a firearm. But that is exactly what happened in the case of Cho Seung-Hui. The problem is, that fact did not turn up in his background check. While the state of Virginia has many centralized databases, psychiatric facilities are not among them. Cho Seung-Hui was able to slip between the cracks, so to speak. By allowing even more people to carry weapons you don't solve the problem.

[Scheetz]

Well, now things like this happen. It's nice to know how safe we are........


SECURITY ALERT FROM OLD DOMINION UNIVERSITY
Late Wednesday afternoon, Old Dominion University received a telephone threat, which the university is taking seriously. The caller threatened a shooting on campus. The university has increased security on campus and our police are working with the Norfolk City Police to ensure safety for students, faculty and staff. Please exercise caution and report any unusual activity to the campus police at xxx-xxxx. Students who choose not to attend class tonight will be accommodated.

[Lakemonster]

Newsman,

The fact that the perp "slipped through the cracks" does no the negate the effectiveness of those that might slip "up" through the cracks to achieve a carry licence.

We've tried everything but more guns on campus.... just how far fetched in beyond the idea of that shall we go to provide ourselves with a real solution?

[newsman]

Newsman,

The fact that the perp "slipped through the cracks" does no the negate the effectiveness of those that might slip "up" through the cracks to achieve a carry licence.

We've tried everything but more guns on campus.... just how far fetched in beyond the idea of that shall we go to provide ourselves with a real solution?

I don't know that I fundamentally disagee with you. I guess I'm worried that a world in which everyone that was allowed to carry a gun would devolve into a scenario in which any arguement could be resolved by a shootout in the streets. It probably is a basic lack of faith in human nature; that and an inability to decide if I'm, at heart, a libertarian or or a liberal. (the two aren't always at odds with one another).

[LuxOR541]

newsman...

you fail to realize how many people LEGALLY carry guns everyday right now. We are not talking about something that doesn't already happen in jurisdictions around the country. How many unlawful shootings do you hear of that involve people who have legally gone through the process of applying for and being granted a CHL? People who go through the process usually have a respect for firearms and the power that accompanies them.

Cho was carrying his gun ILLEGALLY. The law did not stop him. Just as it will fail to stop anyone who is intent on breaking the law. That is a no-brainer. Where there is a will there is a way. If he didn't shoot up the place he would have blown up the place or drove a car into a cowded area, etc. If you want to cause carnage, theres not much to stop you other than the first person to respond with the ability to do so.

Someone fucked up royally in not allowing the NICS check to show his mental health record. Here in Oregon, that would have shown up. I have purchased firearms while someone at the other end of the counter has been denied, and can vouch for the fact that the system works. This is a case not of having lax laws, but of not enforcing the laws and regulations already in place.

This is a tragedy, but it is not the fault of having firearms available. It is the fault of a person. Blame the shooter.

Also, I'm not a war veteran, but i'm not stupid. a little basic tactics would have allowed me to take the guy out. Just because your not a combat vet doesn't mean you're going to stand there and let the guy shoot at you. Again... if you choose to exercise the right of carrying a gun, exercise the obligation to know how to use it properly.

Nick

[newsman]

newsman...

you fail to realize how many people LEGALLY carry guns everyday right now. We are not talking about something that doesn't already happen in jurisdictions around the country. How many unlawful shootings do you hear of that involve people who have legally gone through the process of applying for and being granted a CHL? People who go through the process usually have a respect for firearms and the power that accompanies them.

Cho was carrying his gun ILLEGALLY. The law did not stop him. Just as it will fail to stop anyone who is intent on breaking the law. That is a no-brainer. Where there is a will there is a way. If he didn't shoot up the place he would have blown up the place or drove a car into a cowded area, etc. If you want to cause carnage, theres not much to stop you other than the first person to respond with the ability to do so.

Someone fucked up royally in not allowing the NICS check to show his mental health record. Here in Oregon, that would have shown up. I have purchased firearms while someone at the other end of the counter has been denied, and can vouch for the fact that the system works. This is a case not of having lax laws, but of not enforcing the laws and regulations already in place.

This is a tragedy, but it is not the fault of having firearms available. It is the fault of a person. Blame the shooter.

Also, I'm not a war veteran, but i'm not stupid. a little basic tactics would have allowed me to take the guy out. Just because your not a combat vet doesn't mean you're going to stand there and let the guy shoot at you. Again... if you choose to exercise the right of carrying a gun, exercise the obligation to know how to use it properly.

Nick

I guess that's the problem. It comes down to individual responsibility. Maybe I don't have enough faith in the ability of people to excercise their freedoms responsibly. That's why I'm saying that it is the fault of the system in not providing the means of red flagging an individual who is not capable of excercising his second amendment rights.

[Scalliwag]

I don't like the idea of students carrying firearms to class. It sounds like and accident waiting to happen. But I am all from the profs carrying them. Even if not all profs carry them there would always be one at least in a reasonable distance so if something did go down they could get there before the cops.
When that crazyass crashed his truck into the Luby's here in Texas and calmly walked around executing people it would have been nice if someone would have put a bullet in the guys skull before he shot all of those people.

To me guns are a pandoras box that was open a long time ago. In a perfect world there would not be any. But in the real world criminals will always have access to them. That is just a sad fact of life.

[girlgeek]

I enjoy my time at the range and if I lived alone I would have a lab and a gun. On the other hand an acquaintance of mine, let's call her unstable-shit-for-brains girl, has a long-arm almost bigger than her and that frightens me.

I suppose if everyone could be taught and evaluated in small classes I would feel better about people carrying concealed weapons.

If I sound confused it's because I remember running from gunfire in a mall looking for cover because all of stores closed their gates to keep people out. I also remember being taught to handle and fire a gun by my best friend to help me get over my fear of loud noises. (btw it didn't work )

Thanks for the rant space, i thought y'all might like to hear the views of someone smack in the middle of the issue.

[Blue Midnight]

Well, being a former university instructor, I have a few opinions on this. Here they are:


1. When we think about this incident, it is important to remember that life is full of all sorts of risks. The real question is not the risk itself, but the probability that something bad is actually going to happen. For example, there are horrible drivers who are quite dangerous on the road each and every day who can kill you. Does this mean that we all should drive around in frieght trucks? No. Living means dealing with calculated risks. While what happened at VT was tragic, going to school each day is about the safest thing you can do in your life. People have been doing it for decades, and quite safely I might add. Your odds of getting killed at school are no better than you winning the powerball jackpot. It just isn't going to happen. So let's not get all crazy and pretend like this is some sort of common event that applies to our everyday lives.

2. The idea that more guns in classrooms is somehow the answer is just absurd. While 18 year olds might be legal to own a gun, fight in wars, and so on, I sure the hell wouldn't want most of my university students to have a piece on them when they walk into class. I really don't think I am alone here. Also, would any of you students really want a professor teaching you who has a pistol strapped to their belt? Not very conducive to learning, I wouldn't think.

3. I also want to say that I don't like the how the politics of gun control have gotten involved in this debate. This incident says nothing about gun control, one way or the other. People who try to use this incident to prove some sort of political point are just wrong. These deaths should not be used as some sort of political talking point. It makes me sick just thinking about that...

All my love to the family and friends of those who were lost...

[Akkbar]

if everyone was strapped, people would begin to realize that their life is not worth throwing away. Most muggers and rapists don't have a death wish, but they'd never know if that woman walking down the alley has a revolver in her purse.

Human nature is to gravitate towards the path of least resistance, just as water runs downhill. You think anyone's going to go on a rampage on the White House lawn, or in front of Fort Knox? No, those places have people with guns. Many shopowners and homeowners have guns... I'd say it's pretty risky to attempt a robbery on a 7-11. But, I'm sure the vast majority of schools have NO guns.

How many times does it need to happen before people realize that the weakest parts of society are always the prime targets? I'm totally for arming at least the professors, and maybe even building attendants.

And to answer the above post, Freud said that a fear of weapons is a sign of immaturity. Guns are nothing special. I wouldn't care if my prof had a gun. Edited April 19, 2007 by Akkbar

[Blue Midnight]

if everyone was strapped, people would begin to realize that their life is not worth throwing away. Most muggers and rapists don't have a death wish, but they'd never know if that woman walking down the alley has a revolver in her purse.

Human nature is to gravitate towards the path of least resistance, just as water runs downhill. You think anyone's going to go on a rampage on the White House lawn, or in front of Fort Knox? No, those places have people with guns. Many shopowners and homeowners have guns... I'd say it's pretty risky to attempt a robbery on a 7-11. But, I'm sure the vast majority of schools have NO guns.

How many times does it need to happen before people realize that the weakest parts of society are always the prime targets? I'm totally for arming at least the professors, and maybe even building attendants.

And to answer the above post, Freud said that a fear of weapons is a sign of immaturity. Guns are nothing special. I wouldn't care if my prof had a gun.

Well sir, I am a trained marksman and certainly not afraid of guns. However, there is a place for guns and the classroom is certainly not such a place, IMHO. If you want to live in a country where every man, woman, and child is armed at all time then you are free to feel that way. I am going to respectfully disagree that every person is responsible enough to carry a gun, and pray that such a situation never, ever comes to pass.

[Akkbar]

i should have stated that i too am not advocating every last person carrying around guns. there are lots of people who shouldnt ever. And i wasnt saying you were afraid of guns; i was saying the vast majority of sheeple have some illogical fear of them.

it comes down to this: if criminals can have guns all the time, as a law-abiding citizen, I also should be able to have guns. I am not the scum of society, and look at the privileges the real scum get, while i have to call the police when im being shot at and hope they get there in time. that didnt work at vt. personally, while i have respect for cops, i wouldnt trust them with my life in that sort of situation.

[LuxOR541]

I don't think anyone is saying "arm everyone". That's not the problem. The problem lies in that everyone is unnecesarrily disarmed.

If the state of Virginia allows people the ability to carry firearms in their everyday lives for the defense of themselves and others, why should schools be any different? Even the federal government acknowledges that CHL holders are held to a higher standard than the rest of society when they excepted CHL holders from their "gun free school zones" act. However many state laws enact tougher restrictions than this.

Mine however does not. In Oregon I can carry just about anywhere with my permit. The state forbids any local or county entity from enacting firearms more strict than the states. There's never been a problem here with CHL holders causing problems with their guns in a school. Being able to obtain a CHL, which requires a safety training class, and a background/reference check (not just the 10 minute NICS check, but an actual inquiry conducted by the Sheriff's department, and requiring character references, means that you have been examined and found to be qualified to carry a concealed handgun for the defense of yourself or others.

Also, to the question of how would you feel if you knew your fellow students were armed, or if the professor were armed, etc. One of the first thing that you learn about carrying a gun, is that it's nobody's business but yours that you are carrying. One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to advertise the fact that you are armed or not. The only thing that gives you the upper hand is knowing something the other guy doesn't. If you tell your friends, classmates, neighbors, teachers, etc. that you carry a gun, they make you a liability. People who do not have the soundness of mind that you do may act more cocky and confrontational knowing that you've got Mr. Glock and his 13 friends to back them up. Also, if a situation erupts and you are not carrying, those around you may look to you to protect them. they've just made you an instant target.

These are all things that you learn in the class you take to get a CHL. Any good instructor will not pass you and recommend you for a CHL if you don't understand these things.

So basically, we're not saying give everyone a CHL, we're saying allow the people who have earned one to exercise that privilege wherever they may be. They aren't the problem. The criminals are.

[Scheetz]

Well, being a former university instructor, I have a few opinions on this. Here they are:

1. When we think about this incident, it is important to remember that life is full of all sorts of risks. The real question is not the risk itself, but the probability that something bad is actually going to happen. For example, there are horrible drivers who are quite dangerous on the road each and every day who can kill you. Does this mean that we all should drive around in frieght trucks? No. Living means dealing with calculated risks. While what happened at VT was tragic, going to school each day is about the safest thing you can do in your life. People have been doing it for decades, and quite safely I might add. Your odds of getting killed at school are no better than you winning the powerball jackpot. It just isn't going to happen. So let's not get all crazy and pretend like this is some sort of common event that applies to our everyday lives.

While the odds of being killed at school is low. My odds of being robbed are much much greater. I do not carry because I fear for my life. I am not a paranoid person by any means.

2. The idea that more guns in classrooms is somehow the answer is just absurd. While 18 year olds might be legal to own a gun, fight in wars, and so on, I sure the hell wouldn't want most of my university students to have a piece on them when they walk into class. I really don't think I am alone here. Also, would any of you students really want a professor teaching you who has a pistol strapped to their belt? Not very conducive to learning, I wouldn't think.

From my standpoint, if a professor is carrying openly I would have much more respect for them. Not because I love guns, but because he expresses his rights as an American. It also means he is not a professor who is going to sit around and bash this country like our left wing nuts have been doing. Think I enjoy sitting in class defending my rights as an American to a close minded professor. College kids are at their peak in learning, everything professors say is taken in. This is why most college kids are Democrats.

3. I also want to say that I don't like the how the politics of gun control have gotten involved in this debate. This incident says nothing about gun control, one way or the other. People who try to use this incident to prove some sort of political point are just wrong. These deaths should not be used as some sort of political talking point. It makes me sick just thinking about that...

All my love to the family and friends of those who were lost...

Agreed. This should never have blown to what it is. Unfortunately thats how our media works with their agendas. First it was Duke lacrosse, then Anna Nicole, then Imus, now we have moved on to a bunch of finger pointing back and forth over this and nothing will change. Nothing should change, except the law should be passed that schools can not set firearms laws for concealed carry.

I tell you what though. After the VT and now the copy cat asshole at my school, if you wanted to carry to school you could. Well you can now, but if the school caught wind of it expelled you, any lawyer could easily turn that over and the court system would give the school a good slap. Trust me, if you fear for your life like alot of kids did when this call came in yesterday, the school can not do shit if you carry to protect yourself.

[Akkbar]

alas, i argue a moot point. i live in Kanada. no ccw. for anyone. ever.


ironically, its not illegal here in alberta to walk down the street with a shotgun over your shoulder. and ive seen people do it in small towns.

[Scarecrow]

For those whow think more guns in the classroom will add to the problem, I'd like for you to notice the guns are already coming in the classroom, and leaving over 30 people dead, wether you like it or not. Getting CCW takes the same level of scrutiny and education that a police officer has, and if a CCW holder shouldnt be armed, what does that say about police?

Gun bans have been tried over and over, and the only places not getting shot up are those where the people are armed.

[newsman]

When that crazyass crashed his truck into the Luby's here in Texas and calmly walked around executing people...

Was that the one that took place in Killeen back in the eighties? If so, do you remember what year that was? We were talking about that and couldn't remember when it was.