Carrying Guns On Campuses For Defense

[HarryTheHookaMaster]

I don't think kids should be carrying guns on campus for security. First of all, most college kids are Liberals and would not carry a weapon if their life depended on it...most of the college students cannot compehend firearms.....Second, how can a society allow just certain segments (IE: students, judges, lawers, etc...) but not everyone??? The Second Amendment applies to ALL of us, not just a few who are afraid....

We need to realize, as a society, we are going to have these incidents from time to time. The VT shooting was not about a nutjob with a weapon, it was about a nutjob who fell through the cracks in the system. This moron raised many red flags...and nobody stopped this person before he bought a weapon and started shooting. The weapons become an easy scapegoat for an over-zelous media who refuses to dig deeper and find the REAL problems in society IE: mental helth issues of the shooters, over prescribing anti-depressants...ETC. Just for the record, the weapons were purchased legally.

On the other hand, allowing all COMPETENT citizens to carry weapons would reduce crime, NOT become the "Dodge City" that the fatcats in DC want you to believe. Keep in mind, the DC fatcats want you stupid and disarmed...

I carry a gun for my job. I have had the same 40 hour course in firearms training that law enforcement is required in my state. I take a refresher class and re-cert on my weapon every year at my expense.

Please keep in mind the Constitution. Read it! It was written for a reason! Every citizen of the US needs to decide if they want security or Freedom....you can't have both.

Just my rambling rant...

Harry

bronc6@hotmail.com if you want to discuss this further...

[insidius]

Is it any surprise that the US leads the richest nations in gun deaths? About 85 people per day (8 of which are children) are killed by firearms in the US.

Why such a hard on for guns in this country? It's obviously linked with the United States Bible, I mean the US Constitution; you can't even look at it funny without someone complaining that their rights are being violated. Maybe it's time for an ammendment or two (but that'll never happen).

2004 Gun Deaths in the US: 29, 569 (Source: Center for Disease Control Injury Prevention and Control)

2004 Gun Deaths in England & Wales: 78 (Source: Home Office and Statistical Bulletin 02/07)

The UK has a ban on handguns, as a result of an ammendment.



Worldwide:

The following data were prepared in the wake of the shooting in Erfurt, Germany, 26 April 2002.

In the 14 deadliest mass shootings committed in wealthy nations during the past 35 years:

• 79% of the victims were shot with lawfully held firearms (185 of 233 victims)
• 86% of these mass shooting (12 of 14) were committed by lawful gun owners

Many killers, like the 19-year-old who shot 16 people dead at his school in Germany, were previously law-abiding sporting shooters or pistol club members - men whose legal ownership of guns was not questioned by authorities until after the tragedy.

86% of mass shootings are committed by lawful gun owners.



Putting more guns on the street is NOT the solution. Violence begets violence.

There IS a correlation between NOT having a gun and NOT shooting someone, and HAVING a gun and shooting someone with it.




Just to reiterate, the US has more gun deaths in a day than the UK has in an entire year.

Something has to change. Edited May 15, 2007 by insidius

[Lakemonster]

yeah.

The mindset.

If I were to want you dead, I'd kill you. Be it a hammer.. a knife... or if I wanted to kill thousands, a box cutter.

[Lakemonster]

The UK also has a much smaller population than the US.

You arent telling us how how gun related CRIMES in the UK have been on the rise since the handgun ban.

Armed burglaries are way up. Robberies are way up.

Gotta keep it in perspective.

[The King]

Yes, without a gun you can't shoot someone...congradulations for figuring that out...problem is, people can get guns who have ill intentions...so making good people be unarmed and vulnerable makes it impossible to be safe...

[L'Oignon]

yeah.

The mindset.

If I were to want you dead, I'd kill you. Be it a hammer.. a knife... or if I wanted to kill thousands, a box cutter.

why not carry a box cutter then?


I like that you keep bringing the box cutter up. Do you REALLY want people to be able to bring guns onto airplanes? Locking the doors to the pilots wasnt enough? You figure we should pepper the seats with civlians with handguns so they can take pot-shots at badguys in small areas filled to the brim with people? Oh ya, and maybe they can shoot out a bunch of the windows and doors while they're at it.
God damn, does the sound of cabin pressure rapidly dropping ever remind me of freedom and security.

[The King]

No, absolutely not should people have weapons on an air plane... Yes, if everyone had no weapons on these places such as on campus and on airplanes, no one could do the damage. Problem is...are you going to set up searches around the entire campus??? No, you can not stop the kids who sneak guns in... If they are wanting to commit a gun crime, they don't mind to the gun rule... These innocent good kids who follow the rules do not bring their guns... Because there GOOD PEOPLE who FOLLOW THE RULES.... with these no gun on campus rules it is only stopping the people who do not have bad intentions

[The King]

No, absolutely not should people have weapons on an air plane... Yes, if everyone had no weapons on these places such as on campus and on airplanes, no one could do the damage. Problem is...are you going to set up searches around the entire campus??? No, you can not stop the kids who sneak guns in... If they are wanting to commit a gun crime, they don't mind to the gun rule... These innocent good kids who follow the rules do not bring their guns... Because there GOOD PEOPLE who FOLLOW THE RULES.... with these no gun on campus rules it is only stopping the people who do not have bad intentions

[L'Oignon]

It seems all the time though that terrorists are devising new ways to smuggle explosives onto planes (incl. shoe bombs and drink bombs). So they're getting weapons on the plane, but all of the good law-abiding citizens are weaponless. Why shouldnt I be able to bring my gun onto an airplane then? Isnt it my right to have a weapon on me always? Edited May 16, 2007 by L'Oignon

[The King]

It seems all the time though that terrorists are devising new ways to smuggle explosives onto planes (incl. shoe bombs and drink bombs). So they're getting weapons on the plane, but all of the good law-abiding citizens are weaponless. Why shouldnt I be able to bring my gun onto an airplane then? Isnt it my right to have a weapon on me always?

Airplanes is understandable...because your somewhat garaunteed that noone has a weapon... They do their best to search everyone... and no one is forcing you to fly... SO i understand the no weapons on airplanes, but not on campus

[insidius]

I keep forgetting that it's impossible to sway someone's opinion on the internet.

I'll bow out of this one.

Guns are present in an estimated 39% of American households. Maybe if we double the number of guns out there to 80%, we'll be safer. Let's just start selling houses that come with guns already in them. Same with cars, each glove compartment contains a gun from now on. Then we'll be safe.

[L'Oignon]

I keep forgetting that it's impossible to sway someone's opinion on the internet.

I'll bow out of this one.

same

[HarryTheHookaMaster]

I knew we would see the boogie man mentioned: TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems to me, Bush would have everyone (except the rich) give up their rights in the name of "Safety".... Hell, I would like to know how many people are killed in car accidents every year? Maybe we should go after the TERRORISTS in Motor City...those bastards are killing millions of people all over the world!

Sound stupid????...its is. Just as stupid as sueing a gun maker for their product. Goes to show you how messed up this country really is. What next? my 9 year old getting in a fight at school and being arrested for "acts of terror"?????

Bush has us right where the politicians want us: scared shittless. We, as a society, are afraid of our own shadows. Our rights are being taken from us everyday. The right that aren't being taken, we are giving up.

Back to the point... the weapons did not cause the VT shootings. The fu*ked up, loser who pulled the trigger killed those people. The media is am arm of the government and wants you to believe that all guns are bad (yes, even your grandaddy's shotgun!) and wants to ban them.

Maybe if our schools would do a better job of keeping an eye on the students, they could have helped prevent this shooting. This moron raised flags at VT on more then one occasion but yet no one intervened. Why???? Because they are AFRAID!!!! Afraid of getting sued by some assh0le lawyer....

Again, sorry for the rant.....it just pisses me off when we run from our own shadows and refuse to face the real issues in this country.

Harry

PS. I think it's 82% of households have a gun according to the NRA.....

[The King]

I keep forgetting that it's impossible to sway someone's opinion on the internet.

I'll bow out of this one.

Guns are present in an estimated 39% of American households. Maybe if we double the number of guns out there to 80%, we'll be safer. Let's just start selling houses that come with guns already in them. Same with cars, each glove compartment contains a gun from now on. Then we'll be safe.

No one said give guns out... Just don't take away people's right to bear arms and leave them vulnerable...

[AinSophAur]

The chances of you getting shot in school is so small its almost absurd to arm teachers or students. A couple of armed police officers for large enough schools sounds reasonable, but still a little uneccesary.

[The King]

The chances of you getting shot in school is so small its almost absurd to arm teachers or students. A couple of armed police officers for large enough schools sounds reasonable, but still a little uneccesary.

Your not arming anyone, your just not unarming them...

[Lakemonster]

Why shouldnt I be able to bring my gun onto an airplane then? Isnt it my right to have a weapon on me always?

Great point. I personally say "why the hell not?"

Brazil began allowing passengers to carry on their domestic flights right after 9/11.

Havent heard any trouble with Brazilian airline shootings, hijackings... or terrorist actions involving flights.

[insidius]

Why shouldnt I be able to bring my gun onto an airplane then? Isnt it my right to have a weapon on me always?

Great point. I personally say "why the hell not?"

Brazil began allowing passengers to carry on their domestic flights right after 9/11.

Havent heard any trouble with Brazilian airline shootings, hijackings... or terrorist actions involving flights.

http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/s.../arbz091701.htm

[Lakemonster]

ahhhhhhhhh...

[Scheetz]

Oh My God ---- this is not going to be pretty.


I can not believe these past two pages I just read. We have a Canadian telling us how our country should be "fixed" when your own country is more fucked then ours. You guys up North have bans on guns and try and keep people from owning them. But yet you still have murders because of failure on YOUR COUNTRY'S behalf and they turn and blame the U.S. Must be those illegal guns that Candians are buying in the U.S. then coming back North with them.

This is the same issue with Bloomberg in NYC. Its not Virginia's fault that they fail at upholding their laws and their city. But according to Bloomberg "Oh my, everything that happens in NYC is because of everyone else. Let me point the finger at VA and every other state outside of NY." Its a cop out, be a man, mount up to your state and (for you Canadians) your Country's fuck ups.



Now lets take a look at you Anti-Gun people. Your issue here stands that you think when guns are allowed on campus that "EVERYONE" will own one. Hmmmm, thats some logical thinking right there, maybe you should run for Office! This fight is for the fact that the 4% of people who Conceal Carry everyday want to be able to carry on campus. How about we take a look at Utah. Utah allows CC on campus. Go run a search and see about shootings or any issues on campus. You will not like what you find, but I sure will. You say if people were allowed to have a gun on campus that VT would have had more deaths because people would have started shooting each other since, again "EVERYONE" would have a gun. So, after that first gun shot from Cho, apparently everyone on that floor of the dorm would open up their doors guns a blazing? Seems pretty logical if you ask me.

Now lets take a look at what Concealed Carry means. Wait Wait, do I need to define what concealed means?? When you apply for your license you take on more responsibility then most people will ever have to deal with. You can no longer get into verbal or physical fights with people. You have to man up and swallow your pride and walk away. You are carrying more power on your hip (left or right side) then anyone else in that area. You are carrying a weapon that will end someones life with just one trigger pull. On top of that you are a walking lawsuit. Every round you fire in self defense is your responsibility. On top of this, even if the judge/magistrate feels you were within your rights you now have a civil lawsuit coming your way. So you may not have to worry about your murder charge because it was in self defense but now that family has a 1 million dollar lawsuit on your ass. Now its up to 12 to figure out how much if any you will be paying that family. (I have turned anyone away from carrying yet?) Lets move on to after the fact. Now, you probably need counciling. You just shot and killed a man/woman who was coming to harm and or kill you. 1% of the population can sleep well at night after this occurs, the other 99% need help.

Why did I just break down concealed carry. Maybe for the fact that those who would be carrying on campus are not going to be running around with their handgun in hand. Concealed Carry is used for the element of surprise. Besides, if there is a shooter on campus, you know police are looking for him. Running around with a firearm in hand is the worst thing you can do. CC'ers know this, hell thats why they meet the requirements to do so.


So on a 3 mile campus 4 security guards with 9mm Glocks are enough to keep everyone safe. I assume you trust that if someone is attacking you and you phone the police that they will respond within seconds and save you?? You need to rethink your stance son. If police did not take 15 minutes to respond then I would gladly leave my guns at home. But since I can not carry a police officer in my pocket I'll continue to carry my firearm. Now lets take a look at these 4 security guards with guns. I do not know about you, but if I am a security guard and there is a shooting on campus I sure as hell will not run head first into a building where I have no idea of the where abouts of the shooter. Why do you think they waited so long to enter. Officers already have one of the toughest jobs in the U.S. their lives are on the line everyday. To expect them to say "Fuck my life, my kids, my significant other, my family. I'm running head first and shooting that person before he gets me" is pretty damn loony. But like all the other Anti-Gun nuts they want the officers reprimanded for not bull rushing the building and the Chief of Police to be fired for not forcing them in. God, you guys just amaze me with your though process.



Final note: Yes, chances of being attacked at school are slim, so are the chances during every day life. My line of work has a higher chance then most civilians.

But lets leave you thinking with this.

The chance your house will catch on fire is slim to none also. Since its so low, whats the point in having a smoke detector?



Stay Safe------

Scheetz


p.s. I am all for banning of guns. But until you can make sure that no guns exist in this world I suggest the country quits bitching about the select few who choose to protect themselves, their family, friends and those who we pass that are in need.

[kornkitten42]

scheetz- i agree 100% with what you said.

i think it's also funny that people from other countries are trying to tell us about gun control when like you said, they can't get their own government to control their gun issues correctly.

i do have to say a couple of things.

1. I am ALLLLL for CC.

I have always wanted it since i was younger and my parents instilled in me that a guy is not a toy, it's not to play with, it's all business and you'll one day understand and possibly be in a position where you need one to protect yourself. My parents were all about having fire arms in the forefront, not on the back burner, so i never felt the need to look at it when my parents left me alone, or show anyone, or play with it. if i had questions they would answer and even took me out to learn how to shoot it properly from a young age. We've got several and i love them.

2. I work for the police department here and as a dispatcher i know what our response time is. For any high intensity call we have an officer there within 3 minutes 97% of the time. and 100% ALWAYS within 5 minutes. If I send them code 2 or higher. I'm not saying even then that we shouldnt' have handguns, because there are instances where you can't get to the phone quick enough and have to defend yourself before you can get the police to you. I am just happy that my area fits within scheetz acceptable range of response woot woot

3. ..........run head first into a building where I have no idea of the where abouts of the shooter. Why do you think they waited so long to enter. Officers already have one of the toughest jobs in the U.S. their lives are on the line everyday. To expect them to say "Fuck my life, my kids, my significant other, my family. I'm running head first and shooting that person before he gets me" is pretty damn loony. But like all the other Anti-Gun nuts they want the officers reprimanded for not bull rushing the building and the Chief of Police to be fired for not forcing them in. God, you guys just amaze me with your though process.



and scheetz this isn't against you- i know you were making a point....

Like i said before.... the officers HAD NO CHOICE but to wait outside that building. They had direct orders from their CHIEF to stand down and not enter the building. Only SWAT was allowed to enter the building. The officers , had they wanted too (which 95% of my force says that they would have entered the building.....that it makes them angry when they can't do their job, and are made out to look like idiots....) so all those ANTI -GUN nuts can suck on a lemon and sit down and rotate because they had NO CHOICE.......... they couldn't do anything....... cant they see that in high intensity moments like that the SWAT team is what does all the tactical stuff? think of it.... bank robberies..... hostage situations....shootings.... bombings.... WHO IS THE FIRST TO ENTER THE BUILDING? SWAT.... AND WHO'S WAITING OUTSIDE SECURING THE AREA... THE LEO......So what made people believe that they could go around orders on this one?

bah Fucking ignorant if you ask me. Even Hollywood actually has this scene right in most of their movies.......

ok i think i'm done. Edited May 21, 2007 by kornkitten42

[Big Boss]

I think that if a student is concerned he/she should invest in a bullet resistant vest or some sort of armor. IMO carrying a gun is the last resort. There have been a few situations where I was glad that I DIDNT have a gun because I would of lost my cool and done the wrong thing. Students need good security in place to be safe, not guns or weapons. Thats just my two cents...

[ghostofdavid]

Bullet armor?

Kevlar vests don't protect things like your head. Nor does it assist you in fighting BACK, which is the point of the thread. Self defense is not taking bullets to your face.

[Big Boss]

Do you seriously think you're more likely to take a bullet to the face or to the chest? Is that why cops only wear kevlar vests? Yeah, carrying guns would protect you from that one, lone gunman. But don't you think that more people would die from arguments or disputes if everyone carried a gun?

[ghostofdavid]

Do you seriously think you're more likely to take a bullet to the face or to the chest? Is that why cops only wear kevlar vests? Yeah, carrying guns would protect you from that one, lone gunman. But don't you think that more people would die from arguments or disputes if everyone carried a gun?

Well, since we are talking about the VA Shooting where an armed man is holding several unarmed people captive and ordered them to turn around so he could murder them execution style, by your argument of unarming the masses, which one do you think I mean? How often did the VA Tech kids get shot in the head?