Can You Take Any More God?

[[LB]]

After reading a couple of these threads and hearing the arguments from some of you 'god believers' calling evolution and atheism ridiculous, I ask you explain to me why the concept of god isn't equally ridiculous, if not more ludicrous. And if you can really provide me with empirical evidence, then explain to me who created god? And why should there only be one god? because the bible said so? If YOU think your right because your a Christian and my good friend Ali thinks hes right because hes a Muslim, and some guy in Greece thinks hes right because hes a pagan, doesn't that make all three of you wrong? I think that is the most logical explanation. And don't try and tell me "O i don't believe in the bible or scriptures but I believe in god". Don't think that sitting on the fence about god is going to guarantee you a passage to heaven. Better to make up your mind and live your life rather than let your fear control you and force you into believing a ridiculous concept just cause your scared you might go to hell. God is not watching over you, he is not controlling this earth and he is not in your head! sorry to not be objective but this is my whole hearted opinion after being a zombified Christian for 15 years. Edited November 7, 2007 by [LB]

[newsman]

"O i don't believe in the bible or scriptures but I believe in god".

Actually, the bible makes no mention of GOD being the ONLY god. Exodus 20:2-14 states: " I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; You shall have no other gods before me." It is implied in that statement that there are OTHER gods. That leaves a lot of room for different faiths (aside from the fact that jews, muslims and christians basically worship the same god).

As far as the ludicrousness of the existence of god goes, to me it can go either way. No one, and I mean NO ONE can explain why the universe exists in the first place. It defies logic and our ability to scientifically examine it. Given that, it is equally reasonable to argue that god exists as to argue that god doesn't exist. Either way, we all find out eventually when we enter, as Dylan Thomas put it, "that good night." John Lennon may have put it best: "Whatever gets you through the night..."

[The King]

I was raised in a catholic family, and never really got into it...then a few years ago I started questioning it and now Im an atheist... I think the concept of god was put into place by the earliest civilizations to do two things. First, Its a way to explain all the mysteries of the world... Second, Its a way to control the public with the intimidation of consequences of your actions. In the past, they had to worshiop the sun to keep it rising every day. Now, its the theory of hell vs heaven. But even though I don't belive in it, there is nothing wrong with religion... It is good for society to keep people in check by believing in a higher power

My 2 cents

[insidius]

My beliefs for those who care to listen:

I believe in god and evolution. I believe that god 'set the wheels in motion' and evolution did the rest. The Bible is symbolism, written in a language in such a way to convey ideas that otherwise would be indescribable.

I believe that all religions are valid, I believe that there is only ONE god, and that ALL gods are different iterations or facets of the same idea. For example, if you asked 10 people to draw an apple, you would have 10 unique drawings of an apple, none of which were the same drawing, but they could all be called 'an apple.' When someone says "My god is the one true god," they are, in essence, correct. It's when you start claiming that your friends' god is a false god that you fall into error. God is. God encompasses all.


I do not believe in hell. I think "original sin" is a manmade fabrication to gain converts.

That said, I also do not believe in "heaven" for the same reason. I believe we are on this earth to overcome our own evils in our own way. "We are put upon this earth to turn darkness into light." We are here to gain experience of the physical, because in essence, we are spiritual beings first and foremost.

I don't believe that "god controls the earth," quite the opposite, in fact. We have our own free will, which is very important in the scheme of things. What we do with that will is up to us (obviously) and I think that is the point. Look what we're doing with it. Killing each other. We're here to 'turn darkness into light,' we're here to evolve and transcend our murderish ways. We're here to be better people than we were when we came.

I'm saddened that you've become so jaded because of religion. That should in no way hamper your ability to be spiritual on your own terms. You don't need religion to have god, nor do you need religion to tell you what or how to think. If you're so inclined, you may wish to revisit the idea of god without the biased views you seem to have picked up along the way. Ego is useless; it should be overcome at all costs. Try to view things with an unbiased heart; your rant on religion was anything but objective. Contemplate god with a virgin mind, without the anger and resentment you've become so comfortable with. I think you'll see god in a different light.

[T.rue]

The Bible is symbolism, written in a language in such a way to convey ideas that otherwise would be indescribable.

That's the problem of most religions, the holy books have been written by men. Men are not perfect so neither those books are. That gives you many possibilitys to use it for your advantage.

We have our own free will

And that'S the biggest problem. All this "God doesn't want you to do these and that" doesen't work. If god gave us the power to make our own decisions, we shouldn't let the religiong take that right (witch they often tryed).

Basicly all Religions have a good basic idea(love your next and stuff), but then it got out of controll. It reminds me to the book "the Wave" of Morton Rhue, where a highschool class starts a National Socialism class whithout noticeing it. Religion is, if you consume it carefully, realy a good thing, but if you dedicate you life to a book or even worse ,to a power-obsessed person, you are fucked anyway.


btw. this is a very good song:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wHjsaEK4vnw Edited May 16, 2007 by T.rue

[djbomberto1]

So who wants to die first and see if their is a god or not?

[freepain]

I was raised a baptist from when i was born till 8
then my mother was remarried to a muslim man and after a while i converted to Islam
The other half of my family is Catholic

SO trust me ive had my exposure

i have spent the last 3 years of my life studying every religion i could get my hands on in my free time.

From Russian orthodox to satanism ive learned what they all try and show you

and ive honestly come to the conclusion that i really dont want any part of any relgion out there.

Maybe that makes me a bad person for "sitting the fence" but i do believe in something ,I believe in people. I dont believe that there is a big angry guy up there running the show.

But i do believe we cant just run around. I do believe in carma in a sense but not in the literal way. Its hard to explain but the point being

We are all just on a journey here who are you to say who's right and who's wrong

[james]

I'm bored, so I'll give my opinion.

After reading a couple of these threads and hearing the arguments from some of you 'god believers' calling evolution and atheism ridiculous, I ask you explain to me why the concept of god isn't equally ridiculous, if not more ludicrous.

Not everyone that believes in God doesn't believe in evolution. As far as I'm concerned, evolution is fact. That doesn't prove that there's no God. It only proves that there's no fairy-tale-esque God to be taken literally from religious writings and teachings. My God created the world. God and science go hand-in-hand.

Atheism isn't ridiculous in any way. Nor is it inferior to believing in something.

And if you can really provide me with empirical evidence, then explain to me who created god? And why should there only be one god? because the bible said so? If YOU think your right because your a Christian and my good friend Ali thinks hes right because hes a Muslim, and some guy in Greece thinks hes right because hes a pagan, doesn't that make all three of you wrong? I think that is the most logical explanation.

I don't like the argument of "There has to be a God. Where else did all this come from?". It doesn't work. You can just as easily say "Well, where did God come from?". The answer I always got was "God has always been." That answer sucks. Truth is, there is no evidence of God. But, there isn't any evidence that there is no God. God is a metaphysical concept. Just because there is no physical evidence to touch and see does not rule out the possibility of there being a God. Saying that the concept of God is impossible is just as close minded as saying the concept of there being no God is impossible.

Funny thing about world religions. Basically, they're all the same. Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah are the same God. That's not even up for debate. It's amazing to see televangelists refer to Allah as a "Demon God". It's the same God, idiots. Muslims even believe that Jesus was one of Allah’s most beloved prophets. Mohammed was visited by the angel Gabriel. Same story, told a little bit different. But, that doesn't stop everyone from killing each other. It's ridiculous.

The Hindu faith is quasi-polytheistic. While there are different deities, there are all part of the whole. That is, one God, representing him/her self differently. Same could easily be true for and pagan or polytheistic faith. Zeus and his lesser deities? Each of the lesser Gods usually represented some specific state of human nature, or nature itself. These could easily be different facets of the larger whole.

There's a Hindu and Buddhist parable that illustrates who is "right". Sorry if I don't get the context exactly right. Several blind men come across an elephant. Having never seen an elephant, they must rely on their sense of touch to define exactly what an elephant is. One man feels the elephants leg. He then proclaims "An elephant is tall and strong like a tree." Another man, feeling the elephants trunk, says "No, and elephant is long and slender like a snake." Yet another man, feeling the elephants ear, says "You're both wrong. An elephant is thin and flat like a leaf." And so on and so forth. The elephant is God, and the men are different faiths. Although they all are describing the same God, they are all describing God differently. God says "I do not care how men come to me, so long as they do." There is no right path to God. And there never will be, because we don't know God through our current existence.

And don't try and tell me "O i don't believe in the bible or scriptures but I believe in god". Don't think that sitting on the fence about god is going to guarantee you a passage to heaven. Better to make up your mind and live your life rather than let your fear control you and force you into believing a ridiculous concept just cause your scared you might go to hell.

I don't believe in the Bible or scripture, but I believe in God. I believe the Bible and scriptures are two things: 1) a way of conveying complex concepts to simple people through stories, and 2) a way of swaying political points through personal agendas of the writers.

I'm not looking for passage to heaven. If I die and the worms eat me in the ground because there is no God, I don't mind. I'll be dead, and won't know the difference. I spent most of my life completely sure that that would be happening. Not so much anymore, but not out of fear.

If there is a God in some form, and I die and am taken away to be judged only to find out that I was part of X denomination so I get to spend eternity in hellfire, I'll gladly go. Any God who requires you to blindly follow a certain faith without any guidance or evidence, with the consequences being eternal damnation, is an unjust and malevolent God whom I do not care to meet. I don't think that there is a hell. Or a heaven, for that matter. I think it's a scare tactic to get people act a certain way, and a reward system for following their moral compass. I think there is an afterlife existence, but not mansions on clouds. I don't need fear or a reward to be a good person. I don't follow any religious tenets out of fear. Steal? Kill? Nope. I would be harming myself emotionally and psychologically, as well as others. Drink/smoke/eat in excess? No, because it's harmful to me. Adultery or other being "overly promiscuous"? No, it would make me unhappy to cheat. And, when I use to sleep around more than I should have, it made me feel bad emotionally. Anyone that has slept around too much knows that it stops becoming fun, and starts becoming something painful used to cover up emotional problems. If you don't believe me, try it out, or think about how emotionally distressed the girls you think are "whores" are. Give to the poor, la la la, list goes on an on.

Religious teachings are things to help you, not rules to follow. They should accompany your human nature and physical well-being, not go against it. If they do, then don't accept them.

God is not watching over you, he is not controlling this earth and he is not in your head! sorry to be so objective but this is my whole hearted opinion after being a zombified Christian for 15 years.

I agree. God isn't the Santa Claus persona that he's/she's made out to be. Everything happens because of human actions and environmental occurrences. God put everything in motion, but isn't pulling strings.

If you don't mind me asking, what denomination were you? I hold no prejudice against anyone. My wife is a Mormon for Gods sake (oops). I'm just curious. I was drug to Baptist churches when I was younger. I'm 100% sure that the hypocrisy and illogical dogma turned me atheistic. I've found my beliefs on my own, even though I didn't need to. I didn't have some void in my life that needed filling.

[Theophage]

That was a well-written and thoughtful post, james, I see we agree on many things.

I don't like the argument of "There has to be a God. Where else did all this come from?". It doesn't work. You can just as easily say "Well, where did God come from?". The answer I always got was "God has always been." That answer sucks. Truth is, there is no evidence of God. But, there isn't any evidence that there is no God. God is a metaphysical concept. Just because there is no physical evidence to touch and see does not rule out the possibility of there being a God. Saying that the concept of God is impossible is just as close minded as saying the concept of there being no God is impossible.

Good points, and I'll agree with you that lack of evidence does not necessarily mean evidence of lack. Though, I'd like to point out one distinction between atheism and theism. Atheism (in general) is only the lack of belief in any deity, whereas theism makes a positive claim: "God exists." This makes atheism the logical "default" position, putting the burden of proof on the theist. Besides, proving a negative is hard enough anyways. For the record, I consider myself an agnostic atheist. While I don't believe in any gods, I don't reject the possibility completely, however improbable it may be.

For the most part, I don't have any beef with moderate religion, but it seems that too many theists out there subscribe to a "god of the gaps" philosophy. The supernatural has been invoked in the past to explain many things: the movement of celestial bodies, disease, the origin of the universe and life, weather, etc. Our explanatory power has increased exponentially over the past few centuries, and we now understand the actual causes behind many of these phenomena that were once attributed to deity. Though our knowledge of the universe will never be complete, there are admittedly fewer and fewer gaps that can be filled with God. This is exactly why, for example, not being able to completely explain the origin of the universe is not a good reason to believe in God. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable and intellectually honest answer. Who knows what discoveries will be made in the next hundred years?

My two cents.

[tkato]

Look i don't belive in god, but if im not mistaken in the Bible it is beeing said that humans cannot understand the doings and the operations of the god, meaning you can guess away all you want but can you ever understand why and when and who? possibly not...
it's not clear how all of this was created, but insted of making questions on why i think it's better togo ahead and put this god stuff aside since who ever he is we cannot understand his knowledge or grasp his vision.

[james]

Good points, and I'll agree with you that lack of evidence does not necessarily mean evidence of lack. Though, I'd like to point out one distinction between atheism and theism. Atheism (in general) is only the lack of belief in any deity, whereas theism makes a positive claim: "God exists." This makes atheism the logical "default" position, putting the burden of proof on the theist. Besides, proving a negative is hard enough anyways. For the record, I consider myself an agnostic atheist. While I don't believe in any gods, I don't reject the possibility completely, however improbable it may be.

Makes good sense. But then again, I'm not viewing God as a perceivable entity. In the dizzy Kantian world of metaphysics, who is to say what proof is? Sensory perception? You're most definitely right in that it's more logical to be very Rand in assuming an apple is an apple, because there's no sensory proof that it's not. In our physical world, there is no evidence of God. Can't be proven. People who try are just grasping at nothing. But, the concept of God is a very complex one. God isn't a physical concept to begin with, and most likely would not be perceived through physical means. To me, trying to prove that God does or not exist on the basis of our environment is kind of an apples to oranges situation.

But why do people need to know if God exists? I would be terrified if through scientific means we are able to perceive some kind of complex whatever that could be billed as God. Not terrified that God exists, but terrified to how people would react. Can you imagine the religious wars that would break out? We'd destroy the planet in a couple decades.

For the most part, I don't have any beef with moderate religion, but it seems that too many theists out there subscribe to a "god of the gaps" philosophy. The supernatural has been invoked in the past to explain many things: the movement of celestial bodies, disease, the origin of the universe and life, weather, etc. Our explanatory power has increased exponentially over the past few centuries, and we now understand the actual causes behind many of these phenomena that were once attributed to deity. Though our knowledge of the universe will never be complete, there are admittedly fewer and fewer gaps that can be filled with God. This is exactly why, for example, not being able to completely explain the origin of the universe is not a good reason to believe in God. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable and intellectually honest answer. Who knows what discoveries will be made in the next hundred years?

Exactly. The supernatural was a nice fill-in when people didn't understand something. And it still is. So many people use "God's will" to explain occurrences in their lives, positive or negative. It also makes for a nice comfort tool when our loved ones die. People also need supernatural events to provide them with what they view as "proof". People need to accept that science is not out to destroy religion. You shouldn't need miraculous stories to believe in a higher being. Come to it logically, and with an open mind and heart.

I once had a conversation with my wife when a relative was talking about the Garden of Eden that went something like this:

Wife: "Is she being serious? I mean, she thinks that happened in the literal sense?"
Meh: "Yeah. Isn't that what most people do?"
Wife: "I didn't know people did that. I always assumed those things were parables. I had no idea people actually believed them. I guess I never had anyone tell me it was a parable. I just assumed it. Huh."



Off topic, but why can a bunch of hookah smokers have a civilized debate over religion while heads of religious and non-religious organizations want to rip each others throats out? That's mostly the religious side, too. Edited May 16, 2007 by james

[[LB]]

My beliefs for those who care to listen:

I believe in god and evolution. I believe that god 'set the wheels in motion' and evolution did the rest. The Bible is symbolism, written in a language in such a way to convey ideas that otherwise would be indescribable.

Sounds like your a deist. Very interesting perspective, and well thought out and stated i might add.

That was a well-written and thoughtful post, james, I see we agree on many things.

I don't like the argument of "There has to be a God. Where else did all this come from?". It doesn't work. You can just as easily say "Well, where did God come from?". The answer I always got was "God has always been." That answer sucks. Truth is, there is no evidence of God. But, there isn't any evidence that there is no God. God is a metaphysical concept. Just because there is no physical evidence to touch and see does not rule out the possibility of there being a God. Saying that the concept of God is impossible is just as close minded as saying the concept of there being no God is impossible.

Good points, and I'll agree with you that lack of evidence does not necessarily mean evidence of lack. Though, I'd like to point out one distinction between atheism and theism. Atheism (in general) is only the lack of belief in any deity, whereas theism makes a positive claim: "God exists." This makes atheism the logical "default" position, putting the burden of proof on the theist. Besides, proving a negative is hard enough anyways. For the record, I consider myself an agnostic atheist. While I don't believe in any gods, I don't reject the possibility completely, however improbable it may be.

your absolutely right. Are you a pastafarian by chance? Edited May 16, 2007 by [LB]

[[LB]]

I don't like the argument of "There has to be a God. Where else did all this come from?". It doesn't work. You can just as easily say "Well, where did God come from?". The answer I always got was "God has always been." That answer sucks. Truth is, there is no evidence of God. But, there isn't any evidence that there is no God. God is a metaphysical concept. Just because there is no physical evidence to touch and see does not rule out the possibility of there being a God. Saying that the concept of God is impossible is just as close minded as saying the concept of there being no God is impossible.

interesting. The only reason i side with atheism, though, is simply because to believe in a god is a more ludicrous idea than to not believe in anything. There is something in the human mind that forces us to make decisions, and move it out of the way, and thats why agnostics never stay agnostics forever. But saying that the concept of god is impossible is less close minded than saying the concept of god is possible because it leaves room for error, for science, for progress- for proof other than some supreme being that cannot even begin to be explained or described , or will never be witnessed, yet is so staunchly worshiped without question (I know many of you may not be worshipers).

And as far as scriptures and organized religion is concerned, as long as man is behind the operations, or writings or in some position of power, there will always be pandemic corruption. There will always be manipulation, in the past as well as the present of 'divine' words. Maybe Jesus and Muhammad were crazy, who knows?

EDIT:

BTW i think all of you make really good points Edited May 16, 2007 by [LB]

[Theophage]

your absolutely right. Are you a pastafarian by chance?

I see you aren't the only one who's been touched by His noodly appendage...

[insidius]

If you want "proof" of god, enflame thyself in prayer. Meditate. Contemplate god. Get educated about the methods of conversing with god. It's not an easy road, but if you want to truly know, and not speculate, it's the closest you're going to get in this incarnation.

I suspect you won't bother, and that's ok, too. But the tools and methods are there for you to try should you choose.

Seek and ye shall find. It's not just a dusty old saying. If you never expect to hear or feel god, you won't. If you're absolutely convinced god doesn't exist, for you, he doesn't. There are as many different universes as there are souls. We all experience differently. You have to be open to the concept of god or it will forever be a mystery to you.

[Hookah_Bob3]

"For the record, I consider myself an agnostic atheist. While I don't believe in any gods, I don't reject the possibility completely, however improbable it may be."

I completely agree, and that's how I am. I just combine the two and say agnatheist

[Theophage]

If you want "proof" of god, enflame thyself in prayer...

Oh god, it burns!!

[Theophage]

Off topic, but why can a bunch of hookah smokers have a civilized debate over religion while heads of religious and non-religious organizations want to rip each others throats out? That's mostly the religious side, too.

I'm an active member at several other forums, and I've been lurking here for months. This forum is by far the most civil I've ever had the pleasure of perusing... coincidence? Edited May 17, 2007 by Theophage

[[LB]]

Off topic, but why can a bunch of hookah smokers have a civilized debate over religion while heads of religious and non-religious organizations want to rip each others throats out? That's mostly the religious side, too.

I'm an active member at several other forums, and I've been lurking here for months. This forum is by far the most civil I've ever had the pleasure of perusing... coincidence?

yes i think youll start to enjoy this forum. But to put it in a more relative light, do you think you would ever get in a heated argument with a bunch of friends while smoking your hookah? i think not

[[LB]]

"For the record, I consider myself an agnostic atheist. While I don't believe in any gods, I don't reject the possibility completely, however improbable it may be."

I completely agree, and that's how I am. I just combine the two and say agnatheist

no thats agnostic sorry buddy.

[OrangeLazarus]

After being a pretty hardcore atheist for most of my life I have resigned to the infinitesimally small possibility that a god or gods might exist. I really don't care one way or the other because I will continue to live my life as I choose. People should be able to believe or do whatever they want so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others or cause a detriment to society.

I think people take the whole religion thing too seriously anyways... Life is too short to waste time speculating what goes on besides becoming worm-food.

[[LB]]

People should be able to believe or do whatever they want so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others or cause a detriment to society.

I think people take the whole religion thing too seriously anyways... Life is too short to waste time speculating what goes on besides becoming worm-food.

your so right. the only real problem with religion IMO is when it is forced upon people who are
A. too scared to believe otherwise
B. too young to think for themselves
C. already involved in another religion

[ezie]

I respect all religions in this world. Doesn't matter who you worship Budda, Jesus or Hindu Gods. All religion have a good purpose and no religion want their follower to do bad things but people just do stupid mistake and this is just normal because human are not perfect. All we have to do is to forgive that is what every religion taugh their follower. The only thing that i hate is the radical they just mess things up.

[Scheetz]

People should be able to believe or do whatever they want so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others or cause a detriment to society.

I think people take the whole religion thing too seriously anyways... Life is too short to waste time speculating what goes on besides becoming worm-food.

I agree with that. But the issue at hand is this: There are not enough Chiefs in the world many if not 95% of people are just followers. They can not live their life without someone telling them how to live it. Hence why religion is so prominent. They tell you how your life should be lived.

[insidius]

I agree with that. But the issue at hand is this: There are not enough Chiefs in the world many if not 95% of people are just followers. They can not live their life without someone telling them how to live it. Hence why religion is so prominent. They tell you how your life should be lived.

Made up statistics for the win.

The government tells us how our life should be lived too, so what? Do people always listen? No.

Hell, if half the people who were religious followed their beliefs to the T, we'd have a lot less problems in this world.


Religion isn't prominent because people need to be told how to live. You're wrong. Leave your bitterness at the door.