Can You Take Any More God?

[sm5sfe]

I would like to know exactly how you know there is a god and please don't say the Bible, because that is just a book written by many human beings. And when I say god is a "man in the sky who looks down on us" I don't mean that necessarily literally. I understand that concept of a god existing and being around us at all times. But like I said earlier, I am a realist, things have to be proven to me for me to believe them. And why do you think it is sad that I don't believe in a god? I feel people who believe in god are just lying to themselves trying to justify life, death and the morality of things in life. So please, do not feel sad for me. I have had far too much of that just in the past two or three years.

[Johnny_D]

Well first of all it wasn't a near death experience. It was a death experience, I know that sounds dumb however if you knew all the facts, it truly was a death experience. It humbled me, although once again, has led me to realize there is no after life. And who is it that determins if/when we are meant to "see the light"?

I don't want to get into a pissing contest. However I think the definition of death is a "dead brain stem".
If your brain stem was dead, then you would not be here. [Probably!!!!]

I think the point being made above is that you wern't dead dead, just maybe very close to it?

An Interesting Article recently on the bbc. Link

JD

[Johnny_D]

I would like to know exactly how you know there is a god and please don't say the Bible, because that is just a book written by many human beings. And when I say god is a "man in the sky who looks down on us" I don't mean that necessarily literally. I understand that concept of a god existing and being around us at all times. But like I said earlier, I am a realist, things have to be proven to me for me to believe them. And why do you think it is sad that I don't believe in a god? I feel people who believe in god are just lying to themselves trying to justify life, death and the morality of things in life. So please, do not feel sad for me. I have had far too much of that just in the past two or three years.

Very Complicated for sure. It would take pages and pages for me to detail why i have faith.
And I'm not sure i want to detail it in public fora to be shot down and ripped apart.

Feeling sad was the wrong expression I guess.

JD

[anathema]

How can you prove that there are no higher beings? What if I believe that there are invisible squirrels walking around that cannot be detected by any forms of detection that humans have because they have the power to not be detected and choose to do so? You can't prove me wrong and I can't prove myself correct.

Choosing a religion is the same as choosing a way of life, Islam for example(assuming you guys know some basics). But the thing is that you are free to choose how to live and what to live by. These are just morals or inhibitors that we all have, except for really really bad people like Decepticons.

What I don't like is the people who tell me how to live. Is it because they don't want me to turn into a criminal? Or is it entirely because they want to save me from going to hell? I mean, do those people who come to my doorstep really believe that I'm on a path to Hell and are trying to save me from eternal torture?

Zensilk:
Well, you can't have everyone believing in the same religion. Religious were created as it saw fit for the society and people believed different ones according to their situations. They just choose what is best fit and makes them feel better about their actions, and have a just explanation to their actions according to what they think.

And to answer the thread topic; no, I cannot take any more God or god(s). If I worked in a bookstore, I'd file the religious works under the "fiction" section.

[sm5sfe]

You're right, that was an interesting article. And I agree that I don't want this to become a pissing match, however I just feel very strongly about what I've gone through because my recovery was so all inclusive and took so much work that even some of the surgeons who performed some of my operations cannot believe how well I am doing compared to when I entered the hospital on what everybody thought would be my last day on the planet. And you're right, my brain stem was not totally dead, although it was about 65% of the way there, and my brain sustained massive, and I mean MASSIVE, trauma. So when people see me walking down the street, they do not realize how amazing it is that I am alive, and not bedridden. Hell, at times I am amazed I'm not bedridden or bound to a wheel chair. Oh and sorry if I came off as an asshole about this, but I feel very strongly about this event, because it dramatically changed my life.

[Gaara]

I would like to know exactly how you know there is a god and please don't say the Bible, because that is just a book written by many human beings. And when I say god is a "man in the sky who looks down on us" I don't mean that necessarily literally. I understand that concept of a god existing and being around us at all times. But like I said earlier, I am a realist, things have to be proven to me for me to believe them. And why do you think it is sad that I don't believe in a god? I feel people who believe in god are just lying to themselves trying to justify life, death and the morality of things in life. So please, do not feel sad for me. I have had far too much of that just in the past two or three years.

Your lack of faith is unsettling.

Do you have any faith or do you always have to see something in order to believe it in your heart?

[ZenSilk]

God = Religion = War = Death.

That's how i see. This is my own opinion though. Freedom of religion is in the constitution. The forefathers didn't want us to be like Rome!

It says "Under God" everywhere. There really isn't a seperation of church and state, although there should be. And i know somehting about a Church owning the state, i live in fucking Utah. .

[Theophage]

Your lack of faith is unsettling.

Do you have any faith or do you always have to see something in order to believe it in your heart?

I can't speak for sm5sfe, but here's my take on it. Why would you consider a lack of faith "unsettling"? Personally, I don't have any faith, because I think it's intellectually dishonest to accept a belief that cannot be supported with evidence.

[sm5sfe]

Your lack of faith is unsettling.

Do you have any faith or do you always have to see something in order to believe it in your heart?

I can't speak for sm5sfe, but here's my take on it. Why would you consider a lack of faith "unsettling"? Personally, I don't have any faith, because I think it's intellectually dishonest to accept a belief that cannot be supported with evidence.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Bulldog_916]

I find your experience to be a bit unsettling, not your lack of faith, I'm with you there.

I think that to ask someone to prove God DOESNT exist is like trying to prove that your computer isnt currently on. Well, it's getting power, using power, 1s and 0s are flowing through the processor alright....hmmm your display says HookahForum....OH the sound isnt on! Therefore, your computer isnt on. Wouldnt that be a bit weird to you? EVERYTHING points to a certain truth being true, but someone is asking you to disprove this truth's existance. That's a double negative, and impossible to prove. Good luck trying to pass that one off on ANY science teacher with credentials.

I HATE WHEN PEOPLE CALL SOMETHING A THEORY NOT KNOWING WHAT A TRUE SCIENTIFIC THEORY IS!!! A theory in science is about as close to a fact as you can get while still leaving barely a smidgeon of a possibility that some sort of extraeneous circumstance could happen (like a black hole could appear and swallow the earth before a circumstance happens).

When someone tells me "you have to have a personal relationship with god to know his true glory," I tell them that if god wanted me to have a personal relationship with him, he created the damn universe, he could get to me if he really wanted to. Yet, nothing has happened.

Forcing your religion upon somebody means not asking their permission before you merely mention god or give them something of your religion. You are crossing a line without being permitted to do so.

[ZenSilk]

I have stupid religion forced on me literally every day of my life. Actually, one lady went so far as to ask "Shouldn't you be in church?" while i was helping dry off her car at the carwash on a Sunday. I lifted my shirt, to shoe my upper hip, tot he right of my belly button.....[1]

[1] It has gotten so bad in Utah, that the same missionaries come to my house almost everyday (On days they don't come, other ones come), to try to convert me to Mormonism. The last thing any eductaed person wants to be is Mormon. So i discovered a very clever way of warding off Evil (or good, depends on how you see missionaries). There is at all times a Pentagram henna-tattooed to my right hip. It's almost like taking off your shirt and sporting a swastika, it has the same effect on over-religious mindless drones of the Church. The missionaries only come to my house now if my car isn't present in my parking spot.

And the most hilariously grotesque look came over her face that i have ever seen. I don't think Ted Bundy would have even killed her if he saw that face. It was the funniest experience of my life.

Fuck Religion. It's for squares.

[LilTank13]

While I absoulutely detest institutionalized religion, I have these thoughts:

1. Everyone should be able to believe what they want to believe, until it infringes on anyone's right to pursue happiness.
2. The Church, Catholic or otherwise, is the most corrupt thing ever. When you have the heads of your supposed religion (Yes, popes) being 11 years old, or calling for little boys to be sent to them, the line needs to be drawn. You shouldn't have to speak to an "ordained" hierarchal figure to be close to the diety of your choice. Also, if one chooses to attend church, they shouldn't be thrown out or dropped from the member list due to the fact of not paying the upped price.
3. The Old Testament, specifically Exodus, has a slave law established in it. Why would a people who are fleeing slavery implement a slave code on thier own people?
4. The Bible, ie the New Testament, was formed in the presence of Emperor Constantine around 300 ad. Why should an emporer have any say what gospels make it and what don't. St. Augustine was a non-Christian, had an illigitimate child, sent his wife back to Africa, and finally created predestination to suit himself. New Christianity is far too self righteous, and in my opinion, lost its roots.
5. Paul, arguably the earliest writer of Jesus, was once a Jew named Sol, who persecuted Christians. Paul wrote about Jesus 50 some odd years after Jesus died. This could arguably be oral tradition-meaning, I have trouble following anything he has to say.
6. Before anyone believes anything anyone says on religion, perhaps they should analize for themselves. Islam, or more specifically, the Koran, was fought for, and is arguably based around women (the struggle between Ayisha and Muhammad Ali-leading to Sunnis and Shi-ites) Women are now very persecuted by radical Islamic factions. Also, in the Koran, specifically in the Cow, it says that one is allowed to defend oneself if challenged, however, one may not start the fight. Jihad is seen as spiritual perfection, not necessarily war.

I have a HUGE problem with institutionalized religion, even down to the Bible. Do I believe in a god? Yes. It is the same god that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in. All accept the idea of Genesis, and see this god as the true god, which is why the Koran states that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are accepted religions and not thought to be infidels. The infidels in the pure sense were pagans. I dislike that people interpret religion to suit their life and to find their way out-basically to seek peace of mind. I find the human race as a whole to be far too arrogant, and see this as the plague of religious, theistic, (or whatever you wish to call it) thought. Emperors, and people in power for that matter, should have no say in a person's view on religion. In my opinion, it shouldn't be group based, it should be faith from within.

Religion shouldn't necessarily be going to church and doing what your pastor, father, priest, or whatever tells you to do. Any religion has ideas to live by. What happened to being a good person for the sake of being a good person?

[[LB]]

Your lack of faith is unsettling.

Do you have any faith or do you always have to see something in order to believe it in your heart?

what is faith my friend? pretending something is there that is not, it is a statement "I will believe in this although it is not true or unprovable, I will swallow this lie and not question". I find it incredibly unsettling that so many people buy into the lies of religion. It spills over into real life where we have faith in a president, who abuses our faith and launches into a war on a lie. Faith is ridiculous, and the word itself is an abomination and should never be glorified.

Hell, if half the people who were religious followed their beliefs to the T, we'd have a lot less problems in this world.

Actually, I would think the opposite to be true. Fundamentalists seem to be causing a lot of the problems -- you don't see religious moderates flying airplanes into skyscrapers or blowing themselves up in crowded marketplaces.

Just a thought...

most people believe that fundamentalists practice a perversion of their faith (I can speak for the Muslims on this one). They have a preconcieved agenda and find a way to demonstrate it through their religion, transforming a regularly 'evil' idea into a 'holy and righteous' idea. Edited November 4, 2007 by [LB]

[[LB]]

Let's say an alien came down to the planet one day and stumbled upon Scientology, which we think is ridiculous, why wouldn't he feel the same about Christianity? Here is what he would define Christianity as in his book (and so should we, but because we are raised Christian we are prejudice and have that thing called 'faith').

Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Religion in my opinion is just the lazy man's way of understanding the world. Just say it's god and move on. Edited November 4, 2007 by [LB]

[shisha fan]

religion is just a tool invented by men to surpress people and tell them what to do. Edited November 4, 2007 by shisha fan

[Bulldog_916]

religion is just a tool invented by men to surpress people and tell them what to do.

SHISHA FAN FTW!!!

Religion still is the same tool that it was hundreds of thousands of years ago. It helps people who otherwise would not go out and find the answers to the questions they have. They attribute these happenings to god and whatever powers he possesses. It's less work to just read the bible or the koran or your book of choice than it is to read hundreds of books on science and how the world actually works. Philosophical and mental laziness, IMO.

[Sonthert]

Well, as one author/commentator put it, "faith is the suspension of reason." To have faith that something is true, you have to turn off the reasoning center of your brain. Put more specifically, reduce our mental processes to the level of lower animals.

LB. Walter, you know you and I see eye-to-eye on the subject, I would like to change your three reasons that people can be talked into religion into D. Emotional Dependence. Each of your three reasons could be explained by a common thread, emotional dependency or perhaps intellectual dependency.

The "light" at the end of the tunnel can be seen by pilots and test subjects subjected to high-G forces...the blood drains out of their head and heads for the extremities...causing the light at the end of the tunnel syndrome associated with close death experiences where people's bodies are dying and the blood-flow slows and leaves the head.

Lets deconstruct reality. First, I accept myself as real. If I'm not, then the rest of the process is irrelevant. Lets pose a question "Does the Earth exist?" I would critically reject it without some proof. By definition, the Earth IS real...I'm walking on it. What is it shaped like? I don't know...yet. I define the Earth as the thing I am standing on. I believe in nothing until I can reasonably fail to reject the premise that it's true. You can't reasonably demonstrate god(s) exist. Isaac Asimov, I think, pointed out:"Why is it that when people see an Unidentified Flying Object, they assume its from another world?" Likewise, the religious people of the world, when confronted by something unexplained explain it using god. Its the height of arrogance.

[[LB]]

Lets deconstruct reality. First, I accept myself as real. If I'm not, then the rest of the process is irrelevant. Lets pose a question "Does the Earth exist?" I would critically reject it without some proof. By definition, the Earth IS real...I'm walking on it. What is it shaped like? I don't know...yet. I define the Earth as the thing I am standing on. I believe in nothing until I can reasonably fail to reject the premise that it's true. You can't reasonably demonstrate god(s) exist. Isaac Asimov, I think, pointed out:"Why is it that when people see an Unidentified Flying Object, they assume its from another world?" Likewise, the religious people of the world, when confronted by something unexplained explain it using god. Its the height of arrogance.

well said , as always Edited November 5, 2007 by [LB]

[ZenSilk]

In response to the OP...

Yes, i can take everyone's "God" bullshit.

BUT...

Not when it's being forced on me every single fucking waking hour of my fucking life.

I DON'T WANT TO BE MORMON! I DON'T WANT TO GO TO YOUR HORRIBLE CORRUPT CHURCH!

Leave me ALONE. If someone wants to listen to your bullshit they will come to you you fucking pieces of SHIT!

So, anyway, I work at a Car wash. It was slow for about... an hour. I go in and sit and start reading my book...
Now, get this, i was reading Tao: The Watercourse Way, a book on how Water is the perfect example of the Philosophy of Taoism.

I'm minding my own business. Reading my own book. Guess who decides to join me.

Yup, you guessed it, the motherfuckin missionaries from the church either half a block tot he left, 2 blocks to the right, 5 blocks to the left, 1 street down... I'm not sure. There are so many... And it was Saturday...They like Saturdays... they are always on the attack on that day... Vicious bastards....

But they came right in. Sat down next to me. Private property, the Army can't recruit here, so neither should the LDS church. Ohh, but they are above the law here. At this point in time i wished i was a Vampire so i could viciously rip there throats out and turn them into my mindless zombies.

One of them puts a pamphlet in my book I'm reading. IN MY FUCKING BOOK! IN THE BOOK ABOUT TAOISM I AM SO VERY MUCH ENJOYING WITHOUT THE HELP OF THE FUCKING LDS CHURCH!

And then they start to explain their beliefs. Their obsessive, pathetic, God-loving (Fearing?) beliefs.

Too cut out a long story of yelling and my boss calling the police... I'm buying a Desert Eagle. I think that would be the best gun to pistol whip a Missionary with.

I bet i could get away with "God told me to do it."

EDIT: Ohh, and they defiled my book with their garbage!!!! For that i say Death Penalty. Edited November 5, 2007 by ZenSilk

[Johnny_D]

I feel for Zen for sure. And i've only come across something similar with those idiots from
the Jehovah's witnesses [Easy to get rid of those ass holes]

However some of the comments suggesting that religion is just suspension of belief or being scientifically lazy is horse hockey.

There are many religious scientists. There have been many technological advance from religious places.

The two subjects are not mutually exclusive.

JD

[lemmiwinks]

I'm buying a Desert Eagle. I think that would be the best gun to pistol whip a Missionary with.

Best quote ever. I'm writing this one down.

[dude3516]

I'm a philosophy major and there's two trains of thought that support a theory of there being a "higher power, being, plane, etc." The first is the standard "If he exists you're screwed, if he doesn't then it doesn't matter" argument, I'm not really a big fan of that one, but I do enjoy the "live and let live" found in the background. The other states that humans by nature are imperfect, and the fact that we are able to perceive and imagine perfection means that perfection exists.

I also agree with JD that Science and Religion are not mutually exclusive, thank Einstein for the "Science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind." quotation

[Bulldog_916]

Ok, I agree that there ARE scientists who are religious. They come at it from the whole "science is just god in action, we're just trying to figure out the processes that HE/SHE/IT put into place." A LOT of religious people have tried to come at me from that angle. My argument is that....IF god exists then he/she/it must exist OUTSIDE of the known universe, because if it DID exist IN the known universe we would somehow be able to fit god into the scientific model. The thing about that is that there is no OUTSIDE to the known universe. It doesnt have a border. No beginning, no end. Humans as a species cant wrap our minds around this concept. It's hard to imagine that when you think you've gotten next to the border of the universe, it goes out 100 million more miles and then more, and then more, never ending. So god must exist INSIDE the known universe if he/she/it exists at all. That means that god is bound by the known laws of physics. We will never, as a species, deny god's existence, no matter how well it is argued that god doesnt exist. No matter how long we search, we will never find god because it is a construct of the human mind, therefore, it will ALWAYS exist as long as there are humans.

[dude3516]

Unless you believe in string theory....then there is a boundary to our universe, and there is in fact a form of "multi-verse", very interesting stuff...too much will make you have a nose bleed though.

[ZenSilk]

I love that stuff. Multi-Verses is my favorite universe theory.

But if you think about it, nobody knows what's right or wrong. There most likely will never be a way to tell. James Lovelock (basically the discoverer of global warming) says the world's population is expected to drop from 6 billion to 5 million by 2100. We don't even need an apocolypse, we're setting one up for ourselves. The world is it's own living thing, everything living on it needs The World, and the World needs all of it's inhabitants. But it also needs to get rid of some of it's inhabitants that are doing it harm, and afetr it does so, they will have learned a valuable lesson, and can live along WITH the Earth without interference of any beings beyond our comprehension.