Whats Wrong Here?

[Sonthert]

First off, I usually don't care, but anything in this thread that is off-topic, personal, simply to instigate or constitutes a Thread Hijack is going to be deleted. Keep your comments on topic.

Additionally, for the sake of argument, lets say at least one person was banned from the Forum unfairly. Who it is will be considered irrelevant. Don't say shit like "Dude, Sonthert shouldn't have been banned. He didn't do anything wrong." I don't know who it is, it doesn't matter...

This thread is to be considered off-limits to rude, personal and obnoxious comments. I will ban people who are repeat assholes on this thread from the Forum until the discussion on it is concluded. Once this thread has run its course, it will be locked and hidden.

It might be best to not refer to individual people or moderators. Just say "users" or "moderators".

A simple question...is there anything wrong with how the moderators, as a group, run the forum?

What needs to be changed about the Forum?

What else can you suggest about making the Forum a better place, especially when it comes to users and moderators.

I think we need to clean up and tighten up our rules including set punishments.

Thanks for your orderly participation in this thread. Edited August 25, 2007 by Sonthert

[Sonthert]

Sorry, I hit return and sent the thread in...please just revote.

Edit: well, you can't revote...for the four of you who voted and your votes aren't there any more, PM me and I'll edit them into the thread. Edited August 25, 2007 by Sonthert

[Rani]

First off, I usually don't care, but anything in this thread that is off-topic, personal, simply to instigate or constitutes a Thread Hijack is going to be deleted. Keep your comments on topic.

Additionally, for the sake of argument, lets say at least one person was banned from the Forum unfairly. Who it is will be considered irrelevant. Don't say shit like "Dude, Sonthert shouldn't have been banned. He didn't do anything wrong." I don't know who it is, it doesn't matter...

This thread is to be considered off-limits to rude, personal and obnoxious comments. I will ban people who are repeat assholes on this thread from the Forum until the discussion on it is concluded. Once this thread has run its course, it will be locked and hidden.

It might be best to not refer to individual people or moderators. Just say "users" or "moderators".

A simple question...is there anything wrong with how the moderators, as a group, run the forum?

I can only speak for myself..... This is not my house - I'm a guest in it. Premium membershhip or not. As a guest in someone else's house, I don't make the rules, they do. It is my responsibility to act like a grown up, not throw tantrums in their living room, not abuse the hospitality, and try to act like a guest who's going to be welcomed back. If I decide I don't like the rules of someone's house then I have no reason to complain about it - I just shouldn't come back. I'm free to go elsewhere where the rules are more to my liking. There are some battles you should wage again cruelty, tyranny, child abuse, and the hundred thousand other things wrong with our world. Starting or joining a battle over something that will not improve even your own personal piece of the world strikes me as vain, superficial, self-centered and short sighted. Especially since you're waging war against the way someone else runs their household. Personally I'd rather be that welcomed guest and put my valuable time and energy into doing something to make the world a better place. Even if it's only my little piece of it.

'Rani

[Sonthert]

First off, I usually don't care, but anything in this thread that is off-topic, personal, simply to instigate or constitutes a Thread Hijack is going to be deleted. Keep your comments on topic.

Additionally, for the sake of argument, lets say at least one person was banned from the Forum unfairly. Who it is will be considered irrelevant. Don't say shit like "Dude, Sonthert shouldn't have been banned. He didn't do anything wrong." I don't know who it is, it doesn't matter...

This thread is to be considered off-limits to rude, personal and obnoxious comments. I will ban people who are repeat assholes on this thread from the Forum until the discussion on it is concluded. Once this thread has run its course, it will be locked and hidden.

It might be best to not refer to individual people or moderators. Just say "users" or "moderators".

A simple question...is there anything wrong with how the moderators, as a group, run the forum?

I can only speak for myself..... This is not my house - I'm a guest in it. Premium membershhip or not. As a guest in someone else's house, I don't make the rules, they do. It is my responsibility to act like a grown up, not throw tantrums in their living room, not abuse the hospitality, and try to act like a guest who's going to be welcomed back. If I decide I don't like the rules of someone's house then I have no reason to complain about it - I just shouldn't come back. I'm free to go elsewhere where the rules are more to my liking. There are some battles you should wage again cruelty, tyranny, child abuse, and the hundred thousand other things wrong with our world. Starting or joining a battle over something that will not improve even your own personal piece of the world strikes me as vain, superficial, self-centered and short sighted. Especially since you're waging war against the way someone else runs their household. Personally I'd rather be that welcomed guest and put my valuable time and energy into doing something to make the world a better place. Even if it's only my little piece of it.

'Rani

True, true, but are the hosts being unfair? Within reason, we can change the rules. They're not written in stone.

[The King]

I think mods do a good job on most things
-spam, never seen any
-people who are here to ONLY start trouble, curse and start fights
-drug reference
and others


They're are some unfair things though
-i think threads criticizing a company, or even a moderator should not be deleted if adressed correctly. If someone posts something vulgar delete it, otherwise let them tell their side of a story

you know its really just dealing with post deletion that bugs me... I've ran clan forums a lot of times and we had someone who deleed any complaints about him, and well he lost his privileges. People should be allowed to complain, or report something freely. it doesn't matter if nothing is done about it, they can leave the forum then... but its fair to give them an opportunity to voice their opinion.

just my 2c... might be written shitty lost my train of thought when i answered my phone

[Calcartman]

I voted, but personally i believe the mods here do a great job. They cant be everywhere at once, and they do great where they are

I do think a vendor post section isn't a bad idea, and forcing them to put all advertisements there would certainly simplify things; however stopping any member, especially a vendor who theoretically has a least some usefull knowledge, from posting in the hookah discussion section, seems like overkill.

A vendor section, with a ban on posting advertisements in any other section (a sig - text only, with link should be allowed) would be a great solution to me.

As for discussing bans, etc, i think its sometimes pointless, but usually its done for a good reason. ESPECIALLY people who post comments, etc in the review section.


Mushy, Eric, Yash, and all you other mods/admins/staff/etc do a great job. The rules here are fair, and as long as they're followed we'll all have a good time.
I know from time to time some of us old folks can be jerks to the new punks, but generally i try to be nice, and im sure the same is true for everyone else.

Length of bans is perfect. 1 day for a first offense, longer for secondary/etc, and permanent for Smiley/OPD/etc is perfect.


And as for post deletion, etc ^^ i think if nothing else, having a hookah forum member discussion section, or at least a place to report your opinion (i dont think thats the purpose of the report this post button?) might be helpfull.
But the biggest issue here, to me, is people failing to be civil. And uncivilized posts should be deleted/hidden/edited, so long as the postee is informed. Edited August 25, 2007 by Calcartman

[The King]

oh about the vendor section

i think it should be a section that vendors each get one thread apiece specifically for them to post their promotions. but they should be able to post in other sections, just keep it ad-free.
i don't think they should jump at every chance to recomend their hookahs in all those threads asking for some advice, but hell there's a thread right now that said where do i find that combo bowl...if a vendor says hey, i have that it shouldn't be considered an ad. Hookah vendors have a fair amount of knowledge let them join in

[Muhammad]

The mods are fair and in some cases have to ban people who they like which I applaud them for, as far as I've seen the mods have never been biased towards anyone. Their are decisions made which are beyond the controls of the mods and I don't think they should be blamed for it.

Regarding the issue about vendors I would suggest having another memberhsip option i.e.

Free Membership
Premium Membership
Vendor Membership

The vendor membership would allow vendors to advertise within their own "official threads" just it they do now, howver the price they would pay for the vendor membership would help keep each vendor in control as I'm sure none of them want to lose any money so most likely each one will follow the rules more closely.

I haven't thought that through very well and probably explained it really badly but that's just my suggestion.

For punsishment, their was a good system running on another forum I used to go on, which consisted of giving members infractions for any error they made i.e.

Discussions on review section = 1 infraction
Talking about illegal substances = 1 infraction

etc etc

When the member reaches 10 infractions a ban is given howveer the ban is usually quiet lengthy, a whole month or two. Obviously, if the member does something really bad an immediate ban is given.

Can't think of anything else right now so that's it for now.

[The King]

The mods are fair and in some cases have to ban people who they like which I applaud them for, as far as I've seen the mods have never been biased towards anyone. Their are decisions made which are beyond the controls of the mods and I don't think they should be blamed for it.

Regarding the issue about vendors I would suggest having another memberhsip option i.e.

Free Membership
Premium Membership
Vendor Membership

The vendor membership would allow vendors to advertise within their own "official threads" just it they do now, howver the price they would pay for the vendor membership would help keep each vendor in control as I'm sure none of them want to lose any money so most likely each one will follow the rules more closely.

I haven't thought that through very well and probably explained it really badly but that's just my suggestion.

For punsishment, their was a good system running on another forum I used to go on, which consisted of giving members infractions for any error they made i.e.

Discussions on review section = 1 infraction
Talking about illegal substances = 1 infraction

etc etc

When the member reaches 10 infractions a ban is given howveer the ban is usually quiet lengthy, a whole month or two. Obviously, if the member does something really bad an immediate ban is given.

Can't think of anything else right now so that's it for now.

I dont think vendors should have to pay, no company is going to want to pay money which ends up in their competitors hands...

also if some idiot actually makes the mistake of having 10 different incidents of mentioning drug use they don't care about the rules.... 1 warning is enough, then a short b an, then a perm ban if it persists

[john_smith]

Although I believe the moderators have been doing a good job, there HAS been a lot of bannings lately, which is somewhat concerning whether they are justified or not. Maybe the in the future make a "Banned Members" section of the forum, where you list the members name, what they've done, how long they are banned. No discussion, just simple information (lock the threads I guess would be a good idea). If people don't think that is enough, TFB it is more than most forums do.

[buttpintoo]

I've been here a short time but I think this forum is as well ran as any forum I've seen. I have no problem at all at the recent bans; instigators deserves to be banned, as are those that who starts making demands from a free site.

[Sariél]

I would like it better if the rules were relaxed. I liked it a whole lot better when we all just dogpiled on the offenders. With a few notable exceptions, it seemed to work out in the end. (anyone remember Mathazar, Richard, hookahforum.net? Smiley was not exactly popular around here when I first joined)

I am very much against deleting posts, locking them, and especially editing other peoples' posts. I think it creates more arguments when someone is banned, and the reason for the banning has been deleted. While technically the moderators/admins do not owe an explanation to the participants, I believe it takes away from the sense of community when we are told. "Just because, that's why. Now shut up and sit down."

On a side note, before anyone takes this personally, I also think that the mods should have a moderator account, to separate the official actions from the personal actions and opinions. Mush takes a lot of heat, as he is usually the one making the announcements. As I understand it, the ban hammer is wielded only after the moderators discuss it as a group.

How about the vendor reviews section becoming the vendors section for reviews and announcements?

I do support immediate "vacations" for L337 speak, improper use of "their", "they're" and "there", and such. xd

Just my point of view, and a few suggestions. I could make more, but its starting to cut into my drinking time...

[MechAnt]

I think the mods are doing a fantastic job. Sometimes there are things that are out of he control of the mods and things can be blown out of proportion. At times, it is the users' fault for somethings but in relation to JUST the mods, they are doing excellent. I encourage them to keep up the great job.

[malakas]

I've been here for more than one year now. However, I was on hiatus for a good....6 months until recently.

Looking back in the past, the forum was a really easy place to talk.Not just about hookah, but about anything really. I recall that people really were open to each other's opinions on various subject matters. I really looked forward to checking the forum everyday.

That isn't to say that every one was free to do as they pleased. Mods made sure that everyone was behaving appropriately. When someone wasn't being a productive member or was being, well, a douchebag to everyone in the forum or was peddling wares through improper means,it was isolated. They were either warned, suspended or banned.

Much like how it is today. The forum is still a great place to converse with peers. Yes, vendors have become a little more aggressive. Yes, people have been acting the wrongway and yes, they were dealt with accordingly and appropriately.

However, there was one big difference I noticed from back then and now: As far as I can recall, bans weren't made public or announced in the manner that they are now. Now, I'm not saying that banned or suspended members shouldn't be examples as how to NOT act on these forums, but in the end I think that it isn't productive. All that happens is that members get really heated and debate or criticize either party.

To put it in familiar terms: you're adding an extra coal to some burned shisha.

It isn't an enjoyable experience when you come to a forum and the first 3 topics you see are about a ban or some drama topic. Overall it detracts from the forum itself. It takes away time from discussing new Myas, flavor combos, neat finds and tips for noobs.

All in all, the mods do a great job keeping everything in order, but, at least in my opinion, they can create disorder easily too.

[hookah hippie]

I feel that the moderators do a good job keeping the forum in a hookah related direction the best that they can. Unfortunately sometimes the forum gets bombarded with nonsense and pointless threads. I also believe that the vendor section would be ideal.
I will give the mods a thumbs up because someone has to keep this forum in line or else it won't help anyone and that would defeat the purpose

[Johnny_D]

The Vendor issue is a bloody difficult one to resolve given the hosts.

I also think that the hosts should do a better job of intervention. The only time they appear then problems arise. However I actually agree in principle.

Who are other vendors target customer audience? US - WE. The Royal We! The Users on this forum. Certain recent new vendors claimed to have over 1000 new orders in 48hrs. I would put down serious cashola that 85% of those sales came from here. The only vendor who does not push his/her products is, in fact, our hosts.

Personally I would encourage our hosts to offer international. I would order from them as it would also be adding to keeping this forum going [1]

To the moderators.... Yes they do a good job. How anything in recent memory can be attributed to them is beyond me.

The biggest thing I hate more than anything is users that post-whore with comments like 'yer +1 lol' and other total pointless crap. But that is just my own pet hate! [2]

edit :- I said it in another post a certain recent departee from the forum, both times around, was here to harvest customers. I don't really remember any posts of substance or helpfullness outside of advertising there own company. I think [as someone suggested in regard to mods] that Vendors have both personal & Paid-for Vendor accounts. And are clear on the lines between the two!

JD

[1] This is only my very very own personal opinion.
[2] Again, my own. Occasionally it's ok - but from some it's a never ending tirade

[john_smith]

The Vendor issue is a bloody difficult one to resolve given the hosts.

I also think that the hosts should do a better job of intervention. The only time they appear then problems arise. However I actually agree in principle.

Who are other vendors target customer audience? US - WE. The Royal We! The Users on this forum. Certain recent new vendors claimed to have over 1000 new orders in 48hrs. I would put down serious cashola that 85% of those sales came from here. The only vendor who does not push his/her products is, in fact, our hosts.

Personally I would encourage our hosts to offer international. I would order from them as it would also be adding to keeping this forum going [1]

To the moderators.... Yes they do a good job. How anything in recent memory can be attributed to them is beyond me.

The biggest thing I hate more than anything is users that post-whore with comments like 'yer +1 lol' and other total pointless crap. But that is just my own pet hate! [2]

edit :- I said it in another post a certain recent departee from the forum, both times around, was here to harvest customers. I don't really remember any posts of substance or helpfullness outside of advertising there own company. I think [as someone suggested in regard to mods] that Vendors have both personal & Paid-for Vendor accounts. And are clear on the lines between the two!

JD

[1] This is only my very very own personal opinion.
[2] Again, my own. Occasionally it's ok - but from some it's a never ending tirade

I agree on most of these points, and most specifically on the post whoring. Seeing the acronym FTW (for the win) makes my blood boil, and any post that contains it is usually of little substance e.g quoting someone, taking the subject of their post (Nammor Hoses for instance) and adding 'FTW' to the end of it.

I kinda doubt that HF advertising could account for such a large amount of sales. I don't know the kind of traffic this site gets or any sale statistics, but I stil
l find it hard to believe. 

Also, at the risk of sounding ignorant, who are the hosts of this forum?

[Johnny_D]

I kinda doubt that HF advertising could account for such a large amount of sales. I don't know the kind of traffic this site gets or any sale statistics, but I still find it hard to believe.

Also, at the risk of sounding ignorant, who are the hosts of this forum?

Thanks John Smith

I base my assumptions on a recent vendor who returned to Hookahforum, promptly told everyone he was setting back up in business, and done exactly that. From his 'return' to his 'departure' was probably 2 months.

From him formally opening his store to his departure was probably a week.

I am told that he had in the region of 1000 sales worth $15,000. I cannot confirm or deny any of this data. But that is why i assume 85% sales from here. I do not know of anywhere else that hookah advertising goes on![1]

As for Hookahforum traffic - We have had our 'most users online @ 760' within the last 2 months. As I type this [Sunday afternoon] we have 15 users online. This site gets more traffic, I think, than most realise.

The owners of this forum are hookahkings.


JD

[1] - When reading this please remember I am in the UK. There are two ways to find out about online shisha. Word of mouth & Google. That is it. Period.

edit :- I am not trying to re-hash a recent issue. I am just trying to demonstrate the reasons behind my own belief's and my opinions.

[Zerodynamic]

Here is my synopsis on the whole thing:

I pretty much stopped posting here because I felt like there was nothing new here. I felt as if the same questions were being asked over and over, and you have this new guy with 100 posts thinking he's hot shit/ Mr. know it all. Whatever. I think that a lot of the people that come on here are childish, immature, and self-centered. With that said, I do believe that a lot of the older crowd (not just in age, but in experience on the board) maintains their composure, even though the typical "Search noob" response is all too common here. Perhaps thats changed, maybe not, I haven't posted here in a couple of months.

As for the mods, I do believe that most of them are doing an awesome job. But I feel that they are feeling like they are babysitters. (Reference to the childish/immature part above) I think that this board isn't completely open for this discussion as it is owned by a vendor, and if we talk about something that a particular mod doesn't want to talk about, then we get slapped with the ban stick like I did a few month back. It was only Sonthert and GoD that really stood up for me and Kornkitten, and if it wasn't for you two, I'd still be banned today.

But hey, life goes on. I've met quite a few of you guys offline to have a nice smoke and a chat, and that's really all that matters. To be completely honest, this board isn't perfect, nor will it ever be perfect, but atleast its something.

Just my 2 cents.

[ASUSEAN1]

zerroo!!! wow its been awhile..


anyways.. the mods are doing fine, for the most part. There have been a few banning that were unnecessary but it was probably HK fault in the first place. it is just unfortunate tht this board is owned by hookah kings. i guess there isn't much we can do about it so we have to listen to what they tell us to. obviously they didnt make it past business 101 because their business ethics are making us, their once faithful customers, angry at their actions around the board. I remember when i joined this forum, about 1 year ago, everyone liked HK and would recommend their products when someone asked. Now after the "smart" business moves they have made, I don't know one person on this forum that would recommend buying from them.

With that being said, mods keep doing a good job. There is nothing you guys can do to make this forum any better. It is still a great place, otherwise I wouldn't be here. Everyone lets just try to be happy, talk hookah, and enjoy this place as much as we can!

[The King]

The biggest thing I hate more than anything is users that post-whore with comments like 'yer +1 lol' and other total pointless crap. But that is just my own pet hate! [2]

yeah, +1 to that!

haha

but really I don't know if it its just me but now it seems like every thread like 1 out of every 3 replies are either "+1" "FTW" or shit like " me too"

Then with what zero said, i agree with a lot of the fact that even tho i started coming here again, its only cus I'm in South Dakota, and well its either look at forums or look at corn. A few months ago there were always a lot better topics and discussions it seemed like, now if you look in the section the posts consist of either "reccomend me a hookah", "My shisha burns", or "phunnel bowl help"

I understand people have questions and fuck i know i asked my fair share when i started.... but I just wish people would search a bit so we didn't have so many of the same threads around...idk could just be me

I'd love this place so much more if 1. not so much FTW, +1 replies..... and 2. people used the search

[Sonthert]

Here are my opinions, after carefully reading each person's post.

I am undecided about the moderator's performance, how could I honestly evaluate that?

I believe the moderators balance each other out to fairness. We counterweight each other. I take an aggressive position, Mushy takes a conciliatory position. GOD takes an aggressive position, I take a amiable one. It isn't a Nazi youth rally in there, there is always one moderator who takes the opposite position. It makes us check our own sense of "moral outrage". Sometimes, there is a position that we all agree with and we know its time to move. I don't think a group of seven people can be fair all the time, but we end up being that way.

Here is the current ranking of statements, so we know what we are all thinking:

There should be a vendor section 73%
We like each other and the information is good 70% (both hit with 44 votes out of 63)
The moderators are doing a good job and there were users being assholes on here 57%
The Forum is run well 49%
The moderators banned someone unfairly 41%
People are using too many personal attacks and people are instigating trouble ~37%
Vendor threads should be banned in the User discussion area, bans should be private and bans are given out too frequently ~33%

The rest of the responses, although important, don't seem to be prevalently held.

The vendor section, we will bug Adam about, again (Adrock, not Mushy!).
The second result is good, but Zero-D contested it, so how could we improve the content here, Zero-D? I think we have discussed everything, really, except when new items come out.
Just about half the people thought the Forum was run well...what else could be changed around here so that the Forum would be "run better"?
Without making too big a deal about it, who was banned unfairly? What were they banned for?
People are using too many personal attacks and/or instigating trouble. What can we do about that, as a Forum?
Should we stop publicizing the bans, as we do them?
Should we ban those vendor threads?
Do the moderators give out too many bans? Should we, as moderators, start giving out more warnings and less bans?

Several people expressed concerns over mods deleting posts...I don't see that we do that all that much, we do edit them occasionally. The moderators do hide posts which makes them "disappear" seemingly deleted, but they are still right there (They're shaded in blue, to us). I rarely see a "Edited by" unless it was requested by the user themselves or a ban is about to happen...do you guys (And gals) think it would be better to just hide all inappropriate posts or what do we do with them? Should the moderator who hides a post put a reply down there saying the effect of "I hid a post in this thread for the following reason:" and put an appropriate response?

A better question...how many of you people have personally had one of your posts edited/disappeared by a moderator?

I like to think of myself as fair and somewhat objective, and I believe that Hookah Kings does a great job leaving their feelings out of this Forum unless its direly critical. I don't see a commercial bias, by any means. You wouldn't be able to make a post with a link to a competitor's website if they did. AdRock only acts when he feels its important a couple of guys getting free advertising doesn't bother him too much.

So, give me some more input, so I can collate this all and then come up with some narrower questions.

Thanks,

Eric

[The King]

Should the moderator who hides a post put a reply down there saying the effect of "I hid a post in this thread for the following reason:" and put an appropriate response?

I'd rather posts not be deleted at all unless really vulgar, but this is a pretty good idea

I don't think this whole thing is really a big deal... but thanks for handling it so well

[Hearsay]

I don't think you guys should publicize bans in separate threads. If you want to let the community know why someone was banned, try a sticky thread with updates. I think it's best to let the banned why they were banned and the rest just go on without them, however. You can't really make people use search, but I'm fairly certain comprehensive explanations for the questions that usually pop up already exist on the forum, so another sticky thread for that with an explicit title might work well too.