Useing Copper In Your Home Made Hookah

[Stealth]

Ok, So Ive been looking through some of the hookah how to-s and I have noticed a couple small debates on the use of copper. I personally have used copper in a home made hookah and would like too again, its easy to work with and you can do some interesting stuff. On one of my old hookahs I used copper tubeing for the stem going right up to the steel bowl. It got hot, but not really hotter than the copper water pipes comeing from our water heater. Not to mention the fact you put a torch too them when creating joints to the entire water system in your house. That to me makes no sense then that there is any danger to use it in a hookah. So doese anyone have any comments about this? Was the "copper is dangerous" thing just some side-note about unrefined copper in a chemistery class?

[SafeSearchOff]

copper is a poisonous metal. i forget which threadi t was in, but i quoted a bunch of articles. even a small dosage of copper in food you eat or water you drink can be extremely detrimental to your health. as far as inhaling fumes of said toxic metal, i'm not sure about that since there were no references i could find. but it seriously doesnt seem safe at all.

[Stealth]

copper is a poisonous metal. i forget which threadi t was in, but i quoted a bunch of articles. even a small dosage of copper in food you eat or water you drink can be extremely detrimental to your health. as far as inhaling fumes of said toxic metal, i'm not sure about that since there were no references i could find. but it seriously doesnt seem safe at all.

Yes, but my question is does this matter for this purpose. Your body can take a cirtain amount of copper (in fact its in some supliments), and you take it in regularly with tap water. Just because it gets hot doesnt mean the copper suddenly vaporizes and you are inhaleing it. I presume that if any amount of copper is absorbed by your body from a hookah containing that material it is an insignificant amount. If your worried dont do it, but I'm just wondering if there is an expert of sorts that can tell us that this spacific use is likely to expose up to dangerous amounts of the material. I hate to take a useful building material off the table for people without understanding how these things work.

[anathema]

Copper pennies? Pennies used to be made entirely out of copper.

And I saved the best for last:
So has cookware.

So I'm pretty sure smoking from copper is fine but if you find that the copper has vaporized and suddenly disappeared then you have a problem. Btw boiling point of copper is 4643 degrees F.

[FURsAKeN]

Copper is a toxic non-ferrous metal and is very tempermental when exposed to heat. When it is heated and creates a toxic vapor; the vapor has a higher PPM of the metal in the air. Thats why it is bad. Copper piping isn't used in water pipes.. Nickel-Copper tubing is; 45% Nickel 50% Copper, 5% various alloy, Typically. I've also seen Copper-Nickel tubing used in water pipes, but only in colder climates. Copper intake though water is very slight if any; Unless you have an aged house or a recent house fire.
Its actually the oxides your worried about vaporizing then the copper itself. Oxides are continusly building up in the copper, and the heat is what releases them.
Heavy-metal poisoning can occur overtime, and once it has built up enough in your body your screwed.
Bottom-line those who dont' have any signs of heavy-metal poisoning, will have it soon. Just because your not getting sick right now doesn't mean its not killing you. Stop using it. But since you think its such a great metal for smoking, keep using it. You'll see what I'm talking about eventually. Have fun.

[Stealth]

Copper is a toxic non-ferrous metal and is very tempermental when exposed to heat. When it is heated and creates a toxic vapor; the vapor has a higher PPM of the metal in the air. Thats why it is bad. Copper piping isn't used in water pipes.. Nickel-Copper tubing is; 45% Nickel 50% Copper, 5% various alloy, Typically. I've also seen Copper-Nickel tubing used in water pipes, but only in colder climates. Copper intake though water is very slight if any; Unless you have an aged house or a recent house fire.
Its actually the oxides your worried about vaporizing then the copper itself. Oxides are continusly building up in the copper, and the heat is what releases them.
Heavy-metal poisoning can occur overtime, and once it has built up enough in your body your screwed.
Bottom-line those who dont' have any signs of heavy-metal poisoning, will have it soon. Just because your not getting sick right now doesn't mean its not killing you. Stop using it. But since you think its such a great metal for smoking, keep using it. You'll see what I'm talking about eventually. Have fun.

Again, I was hoping for someone who could tell us that copper used in this particular situation poses a health threat and perhaps how they have this understanding. Like so many other things that are "poisonous" we intake amounts of it every day and there is no problem. In fact I just took a look at a Centrum multivitamin box and guess whats in it? Yes, Copper. I think that just contradics everyone else who has said, "Don't use copper! Its Poison!!!1" If you dont want to use it fine, but I dont think its right to tell someone what if you really dont know what your talking about. Again, I'm not an expert on metal, or a chemist or anything, and thats why I'm asking. But simple logic useing other uses of the material tells me that there is no danger.

[blacklabelqlewis]

well throwing copper pipes in a campfire causes the flames to turn green. i once had a butane torch lighter that had a small piece of copper in the hole the flame came out of so that the flame would turn green after a second. that and everyone elses testimony about the dangers of copper is enough to steer me away.

[oggie505#2]

use copper if u want, its not like you are heating to copper to a gas state. Also I agree copper vapor is bad, but I would doubt that your hookah even get hot enough to melt metals. If you do see a vapor it proally just burning off dust or other crap, like using aluminum foil it smoke a bit but itys burning of crap thats on it Remember probably all of you house water lines are copper.

[FURsAKeN]

In fact I just took a look at a Centrum multivitamin box and guess whats in it? Yes, Copper. I think that just contradics everyone else who has said, "Don't use copper! Its Poison!!!1"

You have copper in your body naturally and through foods you eat. But just like anything if you have much of it it becomes toxic. Thats where heavy-metal posioning comes from; an excess of copper in your blood. Your body will naturally and slowly remove excess copper from the body, but when smoking from a copper metal the oxides vaporize and contain traces of copper. Eventually it will build up into an excess of copper in your body. Just like vitamin C, calcium, and other various vitamins and nuritents. You think drinking water with high lead isn't going to hurt you, just beacuse its in your multi-vitamin? Also there are traces of copper in your water, just not high enough to cause a build up in your system. Heating the copper causes the increase of oxides to burn/wash off with a extremely higher PPM.

Again, I'm not an expert on metal, or a chemist or anything, and thats why I'm asking.

Yes, its obvious. If you like I will send you copies of pages from my Welding and Allied Processes manual, Hull Maintenance Tech manual, NSTM 777 Vol.1, also my books on Metalurgy that I got from college; explaining the dangers of various non-ferrous metals including copper. Ever wonder why you dont see copper cored hookahs? Copper is partly safe if you don't use it on the stem and away from the bowl itself, with no direct heat.

Edit: I'm retarded. Edited September 11, 2007 by FURsAKeN

[SafeSearchOff]

Copper is a toxic non-ferrous metal and is very tempermental when exposed to heat. When it is heated and creates a toxic vapor; the vapor has a higher PPM of the metal in the air. Thats why it is bad. Copper piping isn't used in water pipes.. Nickel-Copper tubing is; 45% Nickel 50% Copper, 5% various alloy, Typically. I've also seen Copper-Nickel tubing used in water pipes, but only in colder climates. Copper intake though water is very slight if any; Unless you have an aged house or a recent house fire.
Its actually the oxides your worried about vaporizing then the copper itself. Oxides are continusly building up in the copper, and the heat is what releases them.
Heavy-metal poisoning can occur overtime, and once it has built up enough in your body your screwed.
Bottom-line those who dont' have any signs of heavy-metal poisoning, will have it soon. Just because your not getting sick right now doesn't mean its not killing you. Stop using it. But since you think its such a great metal for smoking, keep using it. You'll see what I'm talking about eventually. Have fun.

Again, I was hoping for someone who could tell us that copper used in this particular situation poses a health threat and perhaps how they have this understanding. Like so many other things that are "poisonous" we intake amounts of it every day and there is no problem. In fact I just took a look at a Centrum multivitamin box and guess whats in it? Yes, Copper. I think that just contradics everyone else who has said, "Don't use copper! Its Poison!!!1" If you dont want to use it fine, but I dont think its right to tell someone what if you really dont know what your talking about. Again, I'm not an expert on metal, or a chemist or anything, and thats why I'm asking. But simple logic useing other uses of the material tells me that there is no danger.

if your just going to bat away everyones comments and continue to be belligerent and hold to your own opinion even though you ASKED for others, just don't post. as for why copper is safe for water pipes - copper isnt water soluble, so thats not a problem unless you heat the copper to a couple thousand degrees as you drink some water.  i'm no scientist, but i know basic chemistry.

so if you don't like people telling you its unsafe, thats fine.  just dont post "is it safe to use copper"? and when people say no, dont go "your wrong! your wrong! its fine!".

[FURsAKeN]

Hell, I'm just gonna start saying to use galvanized sheet metal as a coal screen.. its whole lot cheaper and will last longer, cheaper is better right? ITS SAFE!
Everyone would rather do what they feel is logical. I think glavanized metal is perfectly fine to smoke from, they use it in roofing and fences. Hell why not...

Note: It's not safe, don't try it. Edited September 12, 2007 by FURsAKeN

[Stealth]

if your just going to bat away everyones comments and continue to be belligerent and hold to your own opinion even though you ASKED for others, just don't post. as for why copper is safe for water pipes - copper isnt water soluble, so thats not a problem unless you heat the copper to a couple thousand degrees as you drink some water. i'm no scientist, but i know basic chemistry.

so if you don't like people telling you its unsafe, thats fine. just dont post "is it safe to use copper"? and when people say no, dont go "your wrong! your wrong! its fine!".

Actually Fursaken's second post was much better and I think its worth a read for those interested in using the material (not his last post though, that was pretty dumb.) I will hold my own opinion as long as I please, I just merely thought that all the current comments throughout the forums regarding this matter lacked any sort of information. Forgive me for not feeling confident enough to let some fragmented quotes from wikipedia made by 1 or 2 users to change the way I build hookahs. The goal of this post wasnt for me to hopefully get someone to respond to and "foolishly try to prove me wrong," It was to have a thread to have multiple people discuss it.

If I can post my opinion here without getting barraged with sarcasm, I still believe that though excess copper can be detrimental to your health, the way I have used it, and I see others use it in the forums that have been scowled for it, is acceptable. Keep in mind how you might react if someone were to come in the forums saying smoking a hookah will kill you! Dont smoke hookah!

[OBY]

I too use copper in my homemade hookahs. Copper is a poisonous metal when large amounts are consumed. It's not like hookah smokers are chewing on the tube... Water, drinking water I might add would carry any metal easier than water filtered smoke. Metal is heavy so more than likely most of the poison once hit the water would detach from the smoke.

I noticed on one of my hookahs I bought, Was made out of copper, the outside was polished whatever, but still the inside tubing was copper.

I say unless you are chewing and actually ingesting the copper than you are fine... smoking with copper is totally safe. (more so than walking)

Personal Opinion

[FURsAKeN]

Actually Fursaken's second post was much better and I think its worth a read for those interested in using the material (not his last post though, that was pretty dumb.)

Yeah, it was out of frustration.. I agree it was very lame..

Forgive me for not feeling confident enough to let some fragmented quotes from wikipedia made by 1 or 2 users to change the way I build hookahs.

Actually, my information comes from naval tech manuals and publications, information I have attained through college, various naval schools, and experience. I dont trust the ol' wiki.

[SafeSearchOff]

if your just going to bat away everyones comments and continue to be belligerent and hold to your own opinion even though you ASKED for others, just don't post. as for why copper is safe for water pipes - copper isnt water soluble, so thats not a problem unless you heat the copper to a couple thousand degrees as you drink some water. i'm no scientist, but i know basic chemistry.

so if you don't like people telling you its unsafe, thats fine. just dont post "is it safe to use copper"? and when people say no, dont go "your wrong! your wrong! its fine!".

Actually Fursaken's second post was much better and I think its worth a read for those interested in using the material (not his last post though, that was pretty dumb.) I will hold my own opinion as long as I please, I just merely thought that all the current comments throughout the forums regarding this matter lacked any sort of information. Forgive me for not feeling confident enough to let some fragmented quotes from wikipedia made by 1 or 2 users to change the way I build hookahs. The goal of this post wasnt for me to hopefully get someone to respond to and "foolishly try to prove me wrong," It was to have a thread to have multiple people discuss it.

If I can post my opinion here without getting barraged with sarcasm, I still believe that though excess copper can be detrimental to your health, the way I have used it, and I see others use it in the forums that have been scowled for it, is acceptable. Keep in mind how you might react if someone were to come in the forums saying smoking a hookah will kill you! Dont smoke hookah!

all i'm saying is, like you said "it was to have a thread to have multiple people discuss it", but your not actually discussing it, your arguing it. i said copper isnt safe to use, i'm not a scientist, but i can tell you that copperi s a toxic metal. you just replied "In fact I just took a look at a Centrum multivitamin box and guess whats in it? Yes, Copper. I think that just contradics everyone else who has said, "Don't use copper! Its Poison!!!1" If you dont want to use it fine, but I dont think its right to tell someone what if you really dont know what your talking about.".   i could have sworn you said it was to have people discuss it... so whet
her you listen to my non-scientific advice or not, i don't care. just don't ask for people's opinions, then be like "no seriously though, i don't care what you think.  i can look at a centrum box."

tell me if i'm not being clear in how your obviously contradicting yourself.

[VDDZ]

I don't think he is contradicting himself, just countering other's points.

Claim: Copper is toxic.
Rebuttal:Then why is it in multi vitamins?

Claim: Heated Copper is toxic.
Rebuttal: Why is it used in cookware?

Claim: Heated Copper (regarding hookah) gives off toxic fumes.
Rebuttal:How is that possible when it's BP is over 4500F, and hookah peaks around 650F?

Claim: What I'm saying, as a professional, is true cause of *various info*.
Rebuttal:Then why can I, a novice, poke holes in your argument?

Not to be a dick, but this topic seems to be riddled with fools; those who give advice, and those that won't accept it.

[SafeSearchOff]

I never said I was an expert. All im saying is if hes just going to rebut every post, why post in the first place? This is the last out of me.

[cubemastaj]

It is true that copper is in a constant state of oxidization at normal temperatures. And so having a copper hookah will increase the ppm of copper-oxide that is being inhaled. Due to the fact that heating copper will expedite the oxidation process. However there are two major unknowns in this situation; 1) how much copper-oxide is released at normal hookah temperatures and 2) at what point (concentration) in the body does copper-oxide become detrimental to ones health. Both of which I believe require more research.

Does smoking a copper hookah increase the amount of inhaled copper-oxide? -- Yes.

Is the amount of copper-oxide I inhale in a copper hookah dangerous? -- Maybe.

Should I risk it and keep smoking a copper hookah? -- I wouldn’t.

Here is a link to an article that details the effects of copper exposure that may help in your quandary of whether or not the malleability and usefulness of copper is worth the potential health risk.

[BallentineChen]

A lot of pots for cooking are copper too, they distribute heat very well. I'm kind of curious whether that poses any health risks.

[Dr. Atkins]

A lot of pots for cooking are copper too, they distribute heat very well. I'm kind of curious whether that poses any health risks.

Most copper pans are coated with some other material. That said, the heat that reaches the copper is going to be effectively insignificant when smoking hookah.

[guyt]

The main reason not to use copper is that it is a very very reactive metal. It only needs one electron to fill it's d orbital which makes it react with oxygen and rust. (statue of liberty is green because the copper rusted). When copper rusts it has an extremely thin layer of dust like particles. They are to small to actually notice but are there. Just breathing the dust is borderline OK, probably not good for you, but won't kill you. The problem is once the air is heated the copper oxide solubility rises. You can easily start smoking significant amounts of copper dust that will result in health problems.
The rational that eating copper is OK makes smoking it OK is flawed because the organ in your body that is charged with dealing with copper is the small intestine, which is not connected to your respiratory track.

For the cooking pots argument, you can eat copper residue from the pots, you can eat quite a bit. but once you bypass the small intestine your body cannot remove it so it stays there for a very very very long time.

And why would you want to make a hookah that is going to be partially submerged in water out of a metal that can rust.

On the flip side of all that copper CAN be safe once it is in an alloy form that stabilizes the electrons of the metal. copper with zinc, copper with nickel, those are safe. Just don't use pure copper.

[Dr. Atkins]

Copper oxide is going to be far more stable than raw copper for exactly the reason that it has a stable valence shell. And again, the heat that it will be exposed to is really minor.

[FURsAKeN]

Claim: Copper is toxic.
Rebuttal:Then why is it in multi vitamins?

If you would of read the previous post you would of seen that this was already covered.
You have copper in your body naturally and through foods you eat. But just like anything if you have much of it it becomes toxic. Thats where heavy-metal posioning comes from; an excess of copper in your blood. Your body will naturally and slowly remove excess copper from the body. An excess of copper in your body just like vitamin C, calcium, iron, and other various vitamins and nuritents are toxic. You think drinking water with high lead isn't going to hurt you, just beacuse its in your multi-vitamin?

Claim: Heated Copper is toxic.
Rebuttal: Why is it used in cookware?

Copper is an excellent conductor of heat, especially good for top-of-range cooking. Cooks often prefer copper cookware for delicate sauces and foods that must be cooked at precisely controlled temperatures. However, copper cookware is usually lined with tin or stainless steel.
Also FDA did research on copper cookware.

Claim: Heated Copper (regarding hookah) gives off toxic fumes.
Rebuttal:How is that possible when it's BP is over 4500F, and hookah peaks around 650F?

It's not the melting point or boiling point you have to worry about; its the burn off or heating of oxides in the metal. As stated previously..

Claim: What I'm saying, as a professional, is true cause of *various info*.
Rebuttal:Then why can I, a novice, poke holes in your argument?

You might need to do homework, instead of spining a gun. Edited October 1, 2007 by FURsAKeN

[TheScotsman]

Almost every metallic element is toxic in sufficient quantity, and Cu is no exception.

However, when taken into the grand scope of possible alternatives it's not all that bad!

Want to avoid Cu?
step 1... quit eating vegies... especially dark green leaf species. (A bowl of spinach has more Cu than licking every inch of your hookah for hours on end.)
2 Quit eating chocolate... it is amazingly high in Cu, and Cu salts (usually as copper sulphate pentahydrate)
3 No more crab, yeast, grapes, avocado, mushrooms
4 stay away from most micro brews, scotch, Irish, and most Canadian whiskies

Cu build up can be countered with zinc, B6, and selenium. Both Vitamin C, and folic acid are Cu chelators, and very effective in removing Cu from the body.

Most of all, if you are REALLY worried about Cu toxicity, be sure you are a man, estrogens and xenoestrogens block copper secretion.

I would think the list of "bad" compounds to find in your hookah would begin with Pb in solder, and Vinyl chlorides from some hose materials, cadmium, chromium, and nickel salts from questionable plating... and just what is in that glaze on the bowl?

[Scheetz]

Make life simple. Use brass.