Why Democracy Fails

[TheScotsman]

So, while some epoxy sets up I have a minute...

Yesterday was an election day. Anyone else notice?

Who went?
The answer to that was painfully obvious in my precinct. Granted, we are in the far end of no-where, but that is no excuse for the lack of participation. There are 700+ people registered in this precinct, but at 10 minutes before closing yesterday I was number 34 to show up. There were 7 election judges/staffers, leaving the total that showed at 27. The whole bloody county had just over 3000.

If you don't go vote, you have NO room to complain later... based on that, this has to be the happiest damn area in the world.

Bunch of plastic patriots, all waving flags in parades, going to fireworks, and having a 4th of july party, yet one day a year, when it really counts they can't spend 15 minutes to actually turn the gears of democracy.

[lemmiwinks]

So, while some epoxy sets up I have a minute...

Yesterday was an election day. Anyone else notice?

Who went?
The answer to that was painfully obvious in my precinct. Granted, we are in the far end of no-where, but that is no excuse for the lack of participation. There are 700+ people registered in this precinct, but at 10 minutes before closing yesterday I was number 34 to show up. There were 7 election judges/staffers, leaving the total that showed at 27. The whole bloody county had just over 3000.

If you don't go vote, you have NO room to complain later... based on that, this has to be the happiest damn area in the world.

Bunch of plastic patriots, all waving flags in parades, going to fireworks, and having a 4th of july party, yet one day a year, when it really counts they can't spend 15 minutes to actually turn the gears of democracy.

I blame the media. lol but seriously. It was local elections though, right? Can't say I was paying much attention, but I would've had to go back home to vote anyway...

[Bulldog_916]

I noticed, but nothing was sent to me in the mail. No information regarding the measures that were up for vote. I only found out last night what happened with those measures. I'm with Lemmi on this one, the media is the main means that we get information. When media isnt sent to us or even disseminated on tv, there's a problem. I even drove by our polling place and NOTHING was posted saying where to go to vote. I've voted in every election California has had since I was 18, I've never missed a single one. This would be my first, unfortunately.

[Geiseric]

I didn't go, but I don't even believe in American democracy. If it comforts you to believe your vote will change anything policy-wise in America, go ahead. I am of the opinion that those little slips aren't worth the paper they are printed on. There are rare occasions on the local level that the policy may change according to the official that is voted in, but most of the time it doesn't mean a damn thing for anyone under the $30,000 a year income bracket. Call me a cynic or lazy, but I just haven't seen anything get better for the working class or lower class since I have been aware of politics. Why should I believe it would now?

[Estariol]

It's the citizen's duty to be attentive and active in having the election information, if you ask me. I think compulsory voting is a step higer in the evolutionary scale than voluntary.

In reference to the flags and happiness of your area. Isn't it a more important duty of the citizen to vote regularly than to fly a plastic flag for years on end? That's my take on it anyway.

[garykainz]

It's the citizen's duty to be attentive and active in having the election information, if you ask me. I think compulsory voting is a step higer in the evolutionary scale than voluntary.

#1 - i'm pretty attentive (not uber, but still) and i had absolutely zero idea what was going on. and even on "the big" election, i think there needs to be an easier way to get information on what the candidates stand for/what the measures on the ballot actually mean

#2 - compulsory voting would turn most people in to blind voters. i would rather have people who know about something have an opinion on it that leave it up to random chance

[Estariol]

It's the citizen's duty to be attentive and active in having the election information, if you ask me. I think compulsory voting is a step higer in the evolutionary scale than voluntary.

#2 - compulsory voting would turn most people in to blind voters. i would rather have people who know about something have an opinion on it that leave it up to random chance

If you look at most commonwealth countries they have compulsory voting (not necessarily for municipal elections). The key to it is having each party truly campaigning for each vote. In Australia we have a large number of debates on set policy issues between different MP's who are aiming for the same position. For instance you have the Prime Minister Debate, The Treasurer debate, the Industrial Relations Minister, the Health Minister debate etc. Policy statements are compulsory on parties from the very outset of the election. Anyone can request a free policy statement from a party whenever they like. It will be sent to them, free, by mail. Its very comprehensive and the way it's set up you'd have to be a social reclusive living up in a cave in order to not have a clear idea of each party's policy.

Sure, if only a small majority of the population has an idea about the party's policies then I can sort of understand voluntary voting. But in a truly modernised country with a well-educated, well-informed general population compulsory voting makes clear sense. If it is compulsory you give people an incentive to find out more about the election and each party's policies. Voting is empowering and it gives a certain feeling of worth each time you do it, in my opinion.

I lived in America for years and I grew up here in Australia. There are certain aspects of each system which are preferable to the other. Compulsory voting is definitely a strength of the commonwealth's Westminster system. Edited November 7, 2007 by Estariol

[lemmiwinks]

You know what we have to do? Make lobbying and the campaign contribution shit illegal. Then politicians would consider more in their decisions than where their next vacation is coming from, and people in the lower income brackets would get their say in the government back.

However... We can't just do that, because now campaigning for a presidency, senate office etc costs a shit ton of money, and if we got rid of funding only the rich would be able to run effectively.

That's why we also have to reform our media system, either by creating a much bigger public access network a la BBC, or force commercial news outlets to provide equal coverage for all candidates...

However... All this crap is not in the best interests of the super rich which line our politicians' pockets, nor is it in the best interests of the media...

Thus... Politicians don't push the issue of blatant corruption, and the people never hear about it because the media doesn't do its job as the watchdog of those in power...

And if a politician pushes the idea of reforming the system (think Ross Perot) the media either won't give him/her coverage or will give lots of negative coverage (like in the 2004 elections... that's right, the one where John Kerry's service record came under fire and it was all over the news for ages... whereas when it ocmes out that our cokehead president's rich daddy paid his way out of the war, you hear one report... and it's never brought up again)

Our entire system of checks and balances is out of wack, our government is corrupt and our president is dismembering our constitution... and no one hears about it because of our shit media... and people become less politically involved (e.g. Geiseric) because our media takes the words out of our government's mouth and reports them as fact, and they get sick of the bullshit...Yet it feels like there's nothing one can do... because there is nothing one alone can do... I believe the only thing that can save us, dig us out of this rut we're in, is mass communication through the common people; a giant grassroots movement calling out against corruption and government reform... after all, the less than super rich represent like 90% of the population... but hope seems bleak, as it would have to spread almost entirely by word of mouth... it's not impossible though... there are such movements started today, though not nearly big enough... it's really horribly upsetting when you think about it, because the main hope for political involvement is reporting on government/media corruption, and the only real hope for that would be after the movement already started... the media would report on it at least a little because it is something that is happening, but until then they have no excuse to anger the corporations that fund them... and the people remain uninformed... a public outcry remains to be heard...

Wow got a little carried away there, I do believe I may have set the record for most ellipses used... not about to go back and change all of them though, lol.

[Duffer]

I planned to stay out of this forum. I really did. I don't much care for debate as such and I sense that the average age here is fairly low & naive. So just a few comments. Take them as you will.

1) Low voter turn-out? GOOD! I don't want uninformed citizens participating. If you care enough, you'll research the issues and pedal yer azz down to the ballot box. Or register to get an absentee ballot in the mail like I did.

2) If you didn't vote, dust off the ol' hookah and smoke a big bowl of SHUT THE HELL UP!

3) Rigged system? Never changes? Ask the ghost of FDR about Social Security! Ask your granny about sufferage? Heard of Roe vs Wade? Ask Washington staters about the initiative that just passed forcing its Legislature into a 2/3s vote before it can raise taxes..FINALLY! pompous bastages. Every one of these issues was driven by votes. Votes for issues or votes for the people involved.

4) Didn't like how Kerry was treated? (as an example) Did ya go work for his local campaign? Knock on a few doors for him? Send him a couple bucks maybe? Or did you sit on the couch in yer moms basement, regurgitating all of the latest web-spiracies you've read on theywillbelieveanything.com

5) Don't like the entire structure of our system? MOVE AWAY! There are hundreds of other political systems on this planet. Find one you like and join it. or just tune it all out. I don't mind. Really. The system will be there for you whether you participate in it or not. Watch Jackass for the 23rd time. Power up the Nintendo. Sleep. Some more.

That's part of what it means to be living in a free country.

[Geiseric]

Oh, great. Wonder what social class this guy is from. Take a look around you. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere (which you may, come to think of it), you will see signs of poverty in every direction you look. Amongst the other "wealthy" countries in the world, we have the highest rate of child poverty (20%, UNICEF). The system is not built for us. The system is built for the top 5%. I'm not going to argue about the failings of democracy with you. I am going to say that if you have issue with us young folks speaking of issues in the world around us... No one gives a shit! This is not your world, this is our world, and I for one don't want to grow old in a world where my children are starving and I have long since been cast away because I fail to generate funds for the machine.
We always get assholes in conversations like this that want to keep things the way they are because it works for them. Stop gazing in the mirror and look out your window. Look past the Olympic-size swimming pool, too.

*Edit*
Also, you assume too much when you say naive. Naive has nothing to do with age. I have known far more selfish, close minded, stubbornly fixated people over 30 than I have ever even began to know amongst my peer group. Many of us have or are in the act of pursueing a post-graduate education. I am 1 year away from finishing a double major. So watch your tongue.

*Edit#2* Lemmiwinks: When the revolution comes, I'll share my grenades with you. I promise. We will have to get one of those sniper hookahs so we can smoke on the go. Edited November 8, 2007 by Geiseric

[lemmiwinks]

The intelligence of someone who posted in this topic resembles that of a semi-retarded ostrich. I'm sure you know who you are. How was Fox News tonight? Any idea what is going on in the world, or your own country for that matter? Any idea why most of the rest of the world hates us? No, it isn't because they're jealous...

This isn't some web conspiracy, why don't you do some research? Disprove what I said.

And move away? People like you are why our freedoms are slowly being taken away by the people in power. "Oh, you don't like what our elected officials are doing? Get out of America!" Thank you for exemplifying exactly why democracy fails. Our government was built on the idea of power to the people, not that whatever the people in power do is right.

And the average age here is low and naive? Honestly? Again, I challenge you to disprove what I said.

Oh, and yes, the issues in Washington are addressed by votes. Votes of the people in power, put there by the rich. Do you really think that the poor are represented as well in our government as the rich?

Wake up. Why are most of our citizens uninformed? Think it has anything to do with there being more coverage of stuff like why Paris Hilton is a whore than politics, what we are doing in the world, corruption in government, etc?

People like you are why our government is slowly going down the toilet.

edit: Ah, you beat me to it

edit2: nice. I was thinking of combining a hookah with one of those Army hydration packs, ideally powered by the blood of my enemies. The sniper is cool too, though Edited November 9, 2007 by lemmiwinks

[BrotherBuford]

I worked the polls on Tuesday. Turnout was pretty awful. I was a Libertarian candidate on the ballot in a three-way race and pulled 7%. Kinda crap, but the incumbent owns the county and the other opponent used to work for his campaign.

About the only people voting were old folks. Not middle-aged, I mean seniors. Considering that both of my opponents were also old guys and have been around long enough for people to owe them favors, it wasn't much of a contest. Edited November 8, 2007 by BrotherBuford

[Foos]

Lemmiwinks dude you better read the rules and maybe edit the first part of your post before you get the ban hammer.

[lemmiwinks]

Thanks for the tip... In the immortal (or at least amusing) words of Dave Chapelle: I...didn't know you couldn't do that. Edited November 8, 2007 by lemmiwinks

[Bulldog_916]

edit2: nice. I was thinking of combining a hookah with one of those Army hydration packs, ideally powered by the blood of my enemies.

I wonder how that would taste with some raspberry Al Fakher or double apple starbuzz....

There will invariably be people who dont like the way we live as people of this democracy.

The way to change things is to sink money into them, votes dont get it done. How do you think political pet projects get done?

[Foos]

Thanks for the tip... In the immortal (or at least amusing) words of Dave Chapelle: I...didn't know you couldn't do that.

lol no problem BUT if I where you I'd take that first sentence out completely, not because I dissagree but because "Keep Topics Civil. There is no need to start name calling" happens to appear in the rules. Not trying to sound like a rule nazi Id just hate to see people get banned for silly things.

[lemmiwinks]

Ah yes, I spose I should've actually read the rules after you posted that...

edit2: nice. I was thinking of combining a hookah with one of those Army hydration packs, ideally powered by the blood of my enemies.

I wonder how that would taste with some raspberry Al Fakher or double apple starbuzz....

There will invariably be people who dont like the way we live as people of this democracy.

The way to change things is to sink money into them, votes dont get it done. How do you think political pet projects get done?

Like the sweet air of freedom.

I understand that the way to get things done is to essentially bribe the politicians, my point was that it is a problem, and certainly antidemocratic. You said it yourslef, "votes don't get it done." Doesn't that go against the entire idea of democracy? In fact, doesn't it mean that the system is really not democratic at all?

edit: While I'm thinking about it, I'd just like to address another point of Duffer's argument; that uninformed citizens shouldn't be participating. I agree. But everyone's vote should matter equally. Politicians shouldn't be influenced by anything other than what the people want, but they are because of lobbying. It defeats the entire idea of democracy and our elected officials representing the views of the public. The only way someone can say we have a democracy is if politicians represent the general public, and lobbying undermines that and in doing so undermines the idea that America is a democracy itself. Edited November 9, 2007 by lemmiwinks

[Bulldog_916]

In essence, unfortunately, yes. BUT, we cant say that good things dont come out of it. We're one of the best off nations in the world. About 80 percent of the world wishes they could have what we have. There are areas that are corrupt, but I still cant help but be proud on election day when all the candidate's and measures appear along with the percentages. Even being screwed up, they still work better than what most nations have in place. I'd rather live here than Mexico, any middle eastern nation, any African nation and any Asian nation. We have it damn good.

[lemmiwinks]

Absolutely, I'm not saying that we have the only corrupt government in the world, but wouldn't our country be better if we got rid of that corruption? And I'll agree that we do have a great standard of living, but we have problems, too. For example, we work a hell of a lot more on average than most Western European countries, and our workers (on the lower tiers, anyway) do not have the same rights as other countries either. For example, in many countries an employer can't just fire someone because they feel like it like they can in America, and thus job security is significantly higher. I just don't like where our country is heading. And we're basically a modern day empirical nation, but I don't really feel like getting in to that (think a little less than 800 military bases stationed in countries around the world; how would Americans react to, say, a German air base built here? Why does the rest of the world hate us?...)

[Duffer]

Absolutely wonderful day, ya'all! From one fellow American to all.

This thread got infinitely more civil since I looked at it last night! Very cool indeed.

I'll try to reiterate my original points, which were only trying to address the "voter participation" part of this thread. I think some initial responses may have been tainted with anger instead of clear, rational communication.

The larger conversation about our governing system, which is a Representative Republic and not a Democracy, can wait for another thread.

I stick by the "I'd rather that uninformed people just not vote" line. Stupid people shouldn't breed OR vote.

I stick by my "If you don't vote, don't bitch" line. If you don't at least TRY to participate, stop whining.

My examples clearly indicate that voting does matter. Issues do change. The U.S. governmental system is like an oil tanker in molasses. It takes FOREVER to change course! But that has it's good aspects as it slows rash decisions. So don't tell me "votes don't count" because they do. Every last one. I believe it, even if you don't.

I apologize if one of my points sounded like, "Love it or leave it". My whole thread was an attempt to just point out all of our options in this freest of nations.

One option is to leave. Lots of folks have done it. Requests for Canadian citizenship have skyrocketted (sp?) since the war began.

One option is to be active in the system. Make a wave. Start a movement. Participate.

One option is to just check out. Half of our population already has. I don't like that option any more than leaving, but it IS a valid option and citizens are taking them.

Notes:
I DO like Fox News. That Neil Cavuto is one handsome dude!
GENERALLY, Age correlates much better than education level when it concerning ones wisdom. (not a personal dig at anyone, just a truism)
A wise man once noted that it's natural for our youth to be seriously Liberal. With age comes Conservatism. Email me in 40 years and tell me it's wrong.
Nobody's called me a "F-ing Idiot" since.... Oh wait... my wife did just last night!

I really DO commend you'all for having such fervent beliefs! Fire in the belly! It's good. I don't expect you'all to consider anything I say, but I'll say it anyway: When trying to convert the non-believers to your side, ease up on the "we're all doomed" line. It sells well to the choir, but makes ya look like the phycho on the street corner waving the "The End of The World is Near" sign. Also, starting your augument with an f-bomb insult just shows lack of self-control. Once again, sells well to the choir, but advances no further discussion.

Intelligent, rational, calm, communication works wonders. Oh yeah... it's also a sign of wisdom.

[Geiseric]

I could run through and refute every single statement you have made, but I don't have the time, and it would achieve nothing, for it really is a matter of how you perceive the state of happiness here, and in reality, it boils down to own thing: economics. You see the system as functional because you have a decent lifestyle, and you assume everyone else can too. I can, but only because I have the financial backing the makes it possible for me to enable myself to achieve relative stability. This is not true for (depending on whose statistics you use, and how you qualify stability) 20-40% of the population.

As to the whole free country thing: Freedom? Freedom is meaningless. Freedom is an abstract idea people use to give concrete form to the desire for equality, but it really has little to do with equality. Freedom means you are free to kill whomever you wish to achieve whatever you want and take whatever you need. Society and government take this away, and give order. I'm sure some of you octogenarians out there had some form of sociology back in college (if you went, post-high school education for lower middle class is a fairly new thing, and before you even latch on to that as a sign of progress, think of how many people have college degrees in America: about 20%) the role of government is to create some form of equality and social stability. That is it. Its role in economics depends HEAVILY on what economic system that it enforces.

One last thing: Leave? Excuse me, but why the FUCK should I have to leave? What makes this piece of land yours? What gives you the right to say your way of life, your economic system is best for the people here? Again, please refer to the statistics of poverty here. Economic stability in this system is not the norm, therefore happiness and equality is not the norm.

*not going to waste any more time here arguing, I already spent more time than I intended, and I have a wicked hunger on. Stupid AF always gives me the munchies*

*Edit, hasty post, had some sentence issues.* Edited November 9, 2007 by Geiseric

[HookahReviews]

In this day and age, although we do not like to admit it, our vote counts less and less each year. Although the vote of the masses do count, they are votes from uninformed citizens. What percent of americas citizens can call themselves truely informed on any situation regarding the united states or its foreign policy. If you think you are, and your main source for information is mass media, CNN, FOX, SKY NEWS, BBC, any major print newspapers than you are seriously mistaken.

What really matters in this day is one thing, and one thing only.

Money: Being able to have a lobby in congress, be affilated with a corporation who owns a major news outlet, Westinghouse, GE, Disney, etc.

The sad fact of the matter is that the more money you have the more actual 'votes' you have. We sure do live in a representative democracy, however, it is representing those with the most money.

Sure, grassroots movements are changing this, however, in reality, they mereley allow the average citizen to band together (which includes their pocketbooks) and merely is allowing them to concentrate wealth and have some sort of say by weilding said wealth.

[Duffer]

I don't want to argue, so I don't. I discuss. Civilly.

Fast facts from Census.gov:

2006 poverty level for all families = 9.8% (agreed way too high)
2006 poverty levels only married couple families = 4.9% (telling numbers about the benefits of marriage, eh?)

Current unemployment = 4.3% Has been steadily falling since 1993.

Civilian compensation this year = 3.3% increase
Private Industry Comp this year = 3.1% increase
State & Local comp this year = 4.3% increase.

The belief that "I am doing pretty well, but a huge % of others are not" is quite common. Zogby polling finds especially high numbers amongst our more Liberal population. I think it's a good thing. Shows compassion. Empathy for your fellow man. But that's where it falls apart.

The same polling finds year after year that by far, it's the Conservative populous which opens their wallets to charity. Donates time. Helps those in need. Truth.

Oh yeah.... I didn't say "We are free". I said that we are the freest nation on this planet.
Total freedom is anarchy. Total athiestic freedom doubly so.

[Geiseric]

Oh yeah.... I didn't say "We are free". I said that we are the freest nation on this planet.
Total freedom is anarchy. Total athiestic freedom doubly so.

Yes, you did.

That's part of what it means to be living in a free country.

...

Also, US statistics = useless. All state run statistics including the UCR are questionable, if not deserving absolutely no regard. This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of pretty much every academic I have run into who has anything to do with social issues. Self reporting is interesting to see, but absolutely meaningless when it come to cold hard factual numbers. One could find far more meaningful data using a related, but third party source; say, surveying cases of malnutrition in state hospitals as compared to private practices. The issue with all studies in this regard is that poverty is a completely objective term. If one were to define it as the state of being unable to survive at the the level of comfort that is considered to be the standard in the target society, the % would be considerably high. As to unemployment... again: See: Living Wage. You can justify your comfort at the expense of the rest of humanity, or you can visit any major city and see for yourself how well our rising economy is treating the other half of our population.

As to the whole arbitrary conservative\liberal line: Who do you think has time and money to expunge their guilt on our suffering and poor. Hmm.... thats a real toughy.

*Sigh* Again, I waste time in a thread that is going nowhere fast. This time, I am done for real. Really!

[Duffer]

Your are correct that neither one of us is going to change our opinions. I don't consider a discussion like this just for us two. Many folks lurk these discussions, but may be afraid to jump in as they don't want to get violently flamed by some hyper-lib.

You took my "free country" quote out of context, but I would expect nothing less. Predictable. I meant "free country" as it applies to voting participation options. The topic of that thread. Nice try tho. At least I know you ARE reading these comments. Thank you for that.

"As for poverty level", I ask the lurking masses, "which numbers sound more subjective?" "20 to 30% -or- 9.8%?" Ask yourselves, "Do a quarter (25%) to A THIRD! (33%) of everyone I know live in poverty?" When 95% of all households have a two TVs, a computer and a phone? Having no first-hand knowledge of The Great Depression, you have no idea what REAL poverty is.

In one sentence, you expound that the poverty level is huge, and in the next breath you chastise me for trying to help them. Typical hyper-lib?

I find it most interesting that you condemn an overwelmingly Liberal press, totally Liberal controlled education systems, unions & news organizations AND this current Government is under Liberal control of both House & Senate. Your winning and you're upset about it! That IS the definition of a hyper-lib. They never allow themselves to be happy. Content. They can never see the silver lining. It makes me sad.

Higher education has it's merit, but the Socialist brainwashing is frustrating to the rest of us.

To Geiseric: Thanks for having this calm, rational discussion with me. I know you're done with this thread and so am I, but I'm sure we'll chat again. Try to enjoy your day. It's not that bad out there.