Canada: Man Dies In Airport From Taser, Now You Want Them Banned.

[manntis]

I understand the disliking of one or two police officers due to possible dick things they do, but If you disrespect them as a whole entity, then I hope when you truly need them, they take their sweet ass time getting to your house.

That's counter to the ideals of why one should be on the line between the public and potential danger. I was in the Canadian Military during the "decade of darkness" when Paul Martin's budget cuts meant I couldn't carry a sidearm for want of ammunition, and Maclean's Magazine ran monthly articles on how having a military was a waste of taxpayer's money. In some cases I was literally egged by strangers while walking to work in uniform, and when I returned from my overseas tour instead of a heroes welcome I was treated to lectures from knowitall university students telling me I shouldn't have been in Yugo / Bosnia in the first place.

Did that piss me off? You bet. But did it cause me to hope those same ignorant civilians experience the horrors of war? No. My main reason for being was to go overseas and, together with my brothers in arms, diffuse the conflict over there so it doesn't reach over here. If the people who pissed me off here were in danger, it meant I wasn't doing my job.

Think about your last sentence and ask yourself if you really wish that on any civilian, even those who rag on your profession out of ignorance. If you truly feel that way, it's time for you to ask yourself why you wear the uniform at all.

[booya]

....Dudly Doright....

Nice reference!

anyways.... the story from leeds...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yo...ire/7096456.stm


the story states the following....

"Armed police were called to the bus depot in Headingley and when he failed to respond to their challenges he was shot with the Taser.

He said as this was happening, another officer was pointing a real gun at his head. He was restrained and eventually came round in the police van. "



really? really the cops shot him because he was passed out and could have been a security threat? even after they tased him once? pardon me but FUCK THAT. cops are overzealous in the most tame of moments, give them something to freak out about, especially since 9/11, and you've got a serious problem.

he was RESTRAINED while he was passed out. who the fuck does that? i'll tell you ,a cop who has lost his ability to apply critical thinking to a situation.

i dislike cops. i've been in some serious situations with them all over mistaken identities, lack of reasoning on the police officers part etc etc.

bottom line is that police training should be reevaluated.

so in the famous words of Elton John "don't shoot me, i'm only the piano player!"

[kornkitten42]

QUOTE (kornkitten42 @ Nov 17 2007, 06:30 AM)
I understand the disliking of one or two police officers due to possible dick things they do, but If you disrespect them as a whole entity, then I hope when you truly need them, they take their sweet ass time getting to your house.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Did that piss me off? You bet. But did it cause me to hope those same ignorant civilians experience the horrors of war? No. My main reason for being was to go overseas and, together with my brothers in arms, diffuse the conflict over there so it doesn't reach over here. If the people who pissed me off here were in danger, it meant I wasn't doing my job.

Think about your last sentence and ask yourself if you really wish that on any civilian, even those who rag on your profession out of ignorance. If you truly feel that way, it's time for you to ask yourself why you wear the uniform at all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh good god. I'm not saying put the people out on the streets to defend themselves. What I want is for them to sweat. I want them to beg for them to get there faster. I want them to RESPECT the officers for what they do everyday. You act as if I wish the officer would just drop the call and make them handle it on their own. I said take their time, not , not at all......

I'm not an officer.. I'm a dispatcher/ 911 operator. It gets old, and you stop having as much compassion for the people that call me screaming into my ear one minute and then think they have the phone covered when they tell their buddies all pissed off ,the cops are coming and to hide whatever and yadda yadda.

BTW- If anyone were to throw shit at our soldiers, yeah, I wish they were tried with treason, arrested for assault, and "be forced to walk a mile" in that soldiers shoes to see what our boys go through so they can remain here with the freedoms they have and then get their asses kicked . I'm sure a lot of soldiers wished that and my dad was one of them

I'm pretty much an eye for an eye type of person. If you abuse animals, then you deserved to be abused. etc

Do unto others and you would have them do unto you.....



**** this is just my personal observation***
I think for the most part, people who don't like officers are scum bags. They are the ones that usually have something to hide, or have criminal histories. Or their punks/ thugs who have a bad ass image to uphold.

Just to clarify- it's fine to dislike an officer because he's a douche, or if an officer "harrasses"you or tail gates you and slows down traffic you to get upset or annoyed. It's different to hate all cops. Hell we dealt with a guy just tonight who said he would kill any pig that got close enough to him. I bet you can't guess where this "upstanding citizen" is now? Edited November 20, 2007 by kornkitten42

[Johnny_D]

Hell we dealt with a guy just tonight who said he would kill any pig that got close enough to him. I bet you can't guess where this "upstanding citizen" is now?

The City Morgue?

I think your living in a bit of a bubble - probably created by your occupation. It's without doubt you do not see the more unpleasant side of the police force.

Look at what happened to Charles DeMendez in london. Shot 7 times in the head because he ran. 7 fucking times. Shot inside a tube car [very very close enviroment]. 7 Times.

Not one officer, or senior has faced any kind of punishment.

When I was a kid the police were great and a friendly local force. Today they appear to be over zealous idiots who are on some kind of power-trip. Eagerly encouraged by our goverments idiotic rules.

In the UK you cannot argue with the police. Even when they are wrong. Look at your fellow hookah smokers who are harangued by ignorant police.

And your final comment was nothing short of argumentative and quite nasty to boot. The Police are a public servant, paid for by the public Purse. Something they appear to have forgotten.

JD

[kornkitten42]

After last night, This guy is in now in the mental health ward because the guy is insane, Completely off his rocker. Then this guy is going to jail.
He was not beat on or tased, they got him to the ground arrested him and threw him into the squad car.

JD- Where I work has not caused this bubble. I've always had this bubble of reality. I was the smart kid that made friends with EVERY cop i could while i was in high school. While all my other friends and people in school were getting busted for stupid crap, or getting tickets, guess who didn't get into trouble?! -That's right. Me. I never got taken home to my parents, I never disrespected an officer and there fore, I was trusted when I said who what where when and Why I was doing whatever I was doing. (I didn't abuse this btw, i was a pretty good kid)

When it came to my hookah, the officers enbraced it with open arms. Why? Because they knew I didn't do drugs and if I was smoking hookah it must be legal.

I'm not sure how it works in england, and for that and the harrassment you guys face, I'm sorry. I hope you get nicer cops!!!

Trust me- my department has had it's share of bad cops, asshole cops, crooked cops, etc and the like. Our department isn't free of drama or bad apples. I just make sure i'm liked by everyone. It makes the day, and my life a lot easier.

EDITED* to change the first sentence. It made NO sense what so ever lol! Edited November 20, 2007 by kornkitten42

[erufiku]

Well, more than a year has rolled by but I decided to bump this thread.

It is too often that the same scenario is repeated: an instance of violence causes a spark in the media, countless questions and speculations, and the promise of an "official inquiry". The inquiry then takes a year (or, preferrably, more than that) and the commision quietly releases the results (usually favourable for the police or other government agency). Of course, the media has already gone through another shitload of horror stories and the regular Joe never gets to hear the whole story.

So, the first post says "dies to a tasor for an unknown reason". The reason was, as the autopsy yielded, a cardiac arrest. Furthermore, the "official inquiry" has since ended and all four police officers involved were acquitted without any charges, continuing "to serve" the Greater Vancouver Area to this day.

Despite the evidence that the police officer's testimony was "inconsistent" (ie., he was lying), nothing more is being done about the case of the man who was killed (as opposed to a man who "dies in airport from taser"). Some of the said inconsistencies are:

• He [the officer] deployed the Taser four times; records show it was used five times.
• Dziekanski [the victim] was still standing after three shocks and had to be wrestled to the ground; video shows Dziekanski fell after being shocked the first time.
• Dziekanski waved a stapler wildly at the officers; video appears to show Dziekanski only waved his arms after being jolted by the Taser, at which point he staggered backwards and collapsed.

This is not to mention the fact that there were four police officers in bulletproof vests, with guns, batons, tasers, and the victim was in an enclosed, heavily guarded building (ie., the YVR). The police officer stated that he thought he recalled a stapler in the man's hand (there was none seen in the video) and was afraid for the other officer's safety. Wow, a guy with a stapler. Oh noes, call backup, we can't contain his special Stapling Powers.

Anyway I know this might seem like beating a dead horse, but then again I think it is worth re-examining the news every once in a while from a perspective of time. Maybe then people will learn the art of critical thinking and see that the media, for the most part, is only interested in sensationalizing and brainwashing people. Just like in this case, the real problem are not the tasers but the police officers themselves. But to divert attention from the police institution and prevent uncomfortable questions from being raised, the media started a shitstorm about tasers. What I find most unsettling is that most people bought it and came back for seconds without even trying to put two and two together.

In other news, the man who beheaded another passenger on a Greyhound bus in Winnipeg pleaded "not guilty". Here's the scoop: the guy who was trying to catch some sleep while listening to some tunes at the back of the bus was stabbed repeatedly, killed, and beheaded. The aggressor then proceeded to mutilate the body... like quartering it... they actually had to look for the body parts later (and they haven't found the eyes nor a part of the heart).
So, now the lawyers plead that he was mentally unstable and should not be charged. If this flies, he will be admitted to a mental institution and when deemed sane enough to society, released. No criminal record.

Great. Lesson to learn from this: if you're planning a violent crime, start acting weird now so that you can use the insanity clause.

On the other side of the world, in Europe, people serve years in prison for posessing trace amounts of illegal substances (not the hard ones either). In other parts of the world they are killed for the same offence.

How's that for living in the postmodern age?

[An1m]

I don't think just everyone should be able to get a taser though. Too many people think it's a toy right now. They don't take a taser seriously like they would a gun and like to discharge it on their friends or when it's not really needed. I think above a certain watt/ volts per second, the should have a certian license on who can carry them. That or like a gun, have to take a course in order to carry it.

Side note********

I understand the disliking of one or two police officers due to possible dick things they do, but If you disrespect them as a whole entity, then I hope when you truly need them, they take their sweet ass time getting to your house.

I dislike the police as an entire entity, as do I the military. This is not because I am a punk and have a badass image to uphold, it is because I think critically that society chooses to label me as a badass and sees my image as something that needs to be upheld. I do not work to be who I am, who I am is a product of my unique life experiences and my worldview. That said I dislike police and the military because of their cultures which have a deeply engrained disrespect for the people who they are supposed to protect (especially the police and military when used in police situations) and the fact that once you sign up for a profession in the police or military you are no longer useful in protecting the public or defending this country.

This is because the government uses police and the military however they see fit. The police and military are used to break up strikes, break up protests, intimidate people practicing civil disobedience and to harass dissidents. People who sign up to protect other people, with the best of intentions must be wary of the local, state and federal government who can, will and does abuse these "civil servants". This is not the role of the protectors of the people, this is the role of people employed to pacify and intimidate the masses.

Killing Iraqis, Afghans and vaarious south American people throughout recent decades does not keep America safe. It does however serve to solidify and expand America's empire. Harassing kids that are skateboarding, racially profiling, trigger happy, tazer happy police don't keep ANYONE safe. They only endanger the entire population and create a climate of fear. A climate where the average person doesn't speak up for themselves when being harassed by cops, a climate where the average person actually believes that whatever the United States military does is to "keep americans safe!."

Thanks for bringing this thread back from the dead, I appreciated reading through it.

[An1m]

Oh and by the way I did call the police once. I was about 8 years old and there was some drunk belligerent person in my apartment building. I could hear them arguing and fighting someone in the hall way. I called the cops, the fighting went on for about 10 minutes. The cops never came, and so five minutes later I looked out my window and saw a squad car. It was parked at the Dunkin' Donuts that I just so happened to live next door to. The cops showed up about half an hour after I'd originally called, presumably the same cops from Dunkin' Donuts though I admit I do not remember now. One of the most ridiculous things I have ever witnessed in my life.

Cops acting like just about every bad caricature of cops that I have ever seen or heard of:

- Donut Crazy
- Lazy
- Out of shape
- Uncaring and slothful when responding to calls

[Will_Evo]

My personal opinion about the taser issue is this ; If you effectively eliminate non-lethal means of calming down or apprehending a person(Whether it was for a criminal act or the cop misusing it) what do you have left but lethal defense or action? If you leave cops nothing but lethal action, who is to say the cop wasn't in right to use it? The guy is dead. I think people will try to put bans or rules on anything that scares them. In not only my personal opinion...but personal experience...non lethal means of warning or apprehending someone, are crucial in upholding a state of authority as well as sparing as many lives as possible. Here in Iraq we have been using many non-lethal means in order to make death a last resort. We have tasers, paintballs, nerf 203 rounds, lasers, and loud speakers that are all used before we pull out our gun. I have seen what happens when your only form of warning is a gun(before the non-lethal craze)...a soldier here in Iraq followed all of is ROE procedures to the key (Shout, Show, Shove, Warning shot, shoot to kill.) but ended up killing an innocent civilian...if he would have been equipped with a taser or a nerf 203 round..it would have never happened. You people have to remember that you are the ones who want police...and yes they may abuse tasers...but its either that or a gun. People who have never been put into a kill or be killed situation can easily point the blame finger, and criticize police and military for something they did...but put in the shoes of the guy with the gun...put in responsibility of someones life...wouldn't you want to taser someone before killing them? Accidents happen, and so does abuse..but you gotta remember you are the ones that want police...if you want them to do their job, then you have to enable them.

My personal opinion on police...I wish they weren't needed...but in today's society...they are a necessary evil.

-Evo

[Will_Evo]

I don't think just everyone should be able to get a taser though. Too many people think it's a toy right now. They don't take a taser seriously like they would a gun and like to discharge it on their friends or when it's not really needed. I think above a certain watt/ volts per second, the should have a certian license on who can carry them. That or like a gun, have to take a course in order to carry it.

Side note********

I understand the disliking of one or two police officers due to possible dick things they do, but If you disrespect them as a whole entity, then I hope when you truly need them, they take their sweet ass time getting to your house.

I dislike the police as an entire entity, as do I the military. This is not because I am a punk and have a badass image to uphold, it is because I think critically that society chooses to label me as a badass and sees my image as something that needs to be upheld. I do not work to be who I am, who I am is a product of my unique life experiences and my worldview. That said I dislike police and the military because of their cultures which have a deeply engrained disrespect for the people who they are supposed to protect (especially the police and military when used in police situations) and the fact that once you sign up for a profession in the police or military you are no longer useful in protecting the public or defending this country.

This is because the government uses police and the military however they see fit. The police and military are used to break up strikes, break up protests, intimidate people practicing civil disobedience and to harass dissidents. People who sign up to protect other people, with the best of intentions must be wary of the local, state and federal government who can, will and does abuse these "civil servants". This is not the role of the protectors of the people, this is the role of people employed to pacify and intimidate the masses.

Killing Iraqis, Afghans and vaarious south American people throughout recent decades does not keep America safe. It does however serve to solidify and expand America's empire. Harassing kids that are skateboarding, racially profiling, trigger happy, tazer happy police don't keep ANYONE safe. They only endanger the entire population and create a climate of fear. A climate where the average person doesn't speak up for themselves when being harassed by cops, a climate where the average person actually believes that whatever the United States military does is to "keep americans safe!."

Thanks for bringing this thread back from the dead, I appreciated reading through it.

And just so you know...I do understand that I am not fighting for your, or any other Americans freedom over here in Iraq...but I do know we are changing lives in a good way over here. I did not sign up to become a federal bully nor am I. My boss so happens to be the President of the United States...and I do what he says. Why don't you become a soldier..why don't you hold this gun I have been for 365 days and see if it doesn't change your mind...it is easy to criticize someone from behind a desk and a computer..but its much harder to prove me wrong because in order to do that...you'd have to be here. Don't you dare say the military isn't needed or that we are not useful in protecting our country! Would you have said that 60 years ago, when the world was at war..were we not necessary then? Or would you rather be speaking German right now, and not have the privilage to say the things you have been in this post. Until you carry on the responsibility of a soldier..you have no right to say what I do or what we don't do..if it had been one of your family members killed in the attacks in 2001, and the country had not reacted...had just sat back and done nothing..how would you feel? That your country doesn't give a damn about you, that apparently the life of a civilian in your country means nothing to its government..or would you of wanted them to act, go to war against the very thing that killed your relative....before you say something so offensive check yourself. I am soldier..and I do what I am told, no matter what..just like the soldiers before me, and the ones that fought for this country's sovereignty. The difference between then and now is a much more drastic ratio of people who have seen death, and those who havn't. Like I said before...it is easy to criticize from your dorm room and much harder to be the person you ciritcize.

-Evo

[An1m]

And just so you know...I do understand that I am not fighting for your, or any other Americans freedom over here in Iraq...but I do know we are changing lives in a good way over here. I did not sign up to become a federal bully nor am I. My boss so happens to be the President of the United States...and I do what he says. Why don't you become a soldier..why don't you hold this gun I have been for 365 days and see if it doesn't change your mind...it is easy to criticize someone from behind a desk and a computer..but its much harder to prove me wrong because in order to do that...you'd have to be here. Don't you dare say the military isn't needed or that we are not useful in protecting our country! Would you have said that 60 years ago, when the world was at war..were we not necessary then? Or would you rather be speaking German right now, and not have the privilage to say the things you have been in this post. Until you carry on the responsibility of a soldier..you have no right to say what I do or what we don't do..if it had been one of your family members killed in the attacks in 2001, and the country had not reacted...had just sat back and done nothing..how would you feel? That your country doesn't give a damn about you, that apparently the life of a civilian in your country means nothing to its government..or would you of wanted them to act, go to war against the very thing that killed your relative....before you say something so offensive check yourself. I am soldier..and I do what I am told, no matter what..just like the soldiers before me, and the ones that fought for this country's sovereignty. The difference between then and now is a much more drastic ratio of people who have seen death, and those who havn't. Like I said before...it is easy to criticize from your dorm room and much harder to be the person you ciritcize.

-Evo

Edit: Something I wrote accidentally turned up as a smiley

Police may or may not be a necessary evil, police in their current incarnation are definitely unnecessary and ineffective. I would never want to hold a gun in Iraq because it is antithetic to all that I am. The things that you take pride in as a soldier are many of the reasons that I have such a great amount of disdain for soldiers and for military cultures. I am not a nationalist, I am anti-nationalist. Just because "my country" goes overseas and kills hundreds of thousands of random brown people, does not make me safer, it does not make me feel safer and it certainly does not make me feel proud.

When Papa Busch went into Panama and killed tens of thousands of civilians, dismantled the Panamanian armed forces and secured the Panama canal as U.S. property for all eternity this did not make me safer or prouder either.

Fighting fascism was a worthy cause and I applaud anybody who stood up and fought during that time, however the problem isn't with the fact that there are soldiers, the problem is with the institution of the Standing Army. Standing armies, like police forces, are liable to abuses, do not think independently, and follow orders to their grave. This is useful for defending one's homeland as well as whatever those in charge want.

Today those in charge would like to depose regimes in the Middle East, to clear the way for American dominance over the next 91 years. Those in charge have been planning this for over a decade, these people belong to a conservative think tank called the Project For a New American Century, and many of the founding members of that think tank just so happened to become senior ranking Bush administration officials, including Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz. They tried to get Clinton to go to war in Iraq in 1997, under similar, false pretenses and Congress laughed them out of the capitol building, but with a willing president who usurped the power to go to war at any time he pleased, from congress and with congress' approval, it was much easier to invade Iraq.

I have some names and terms for you, maybe you should look them up:

Mossadeq
Allende
Roldos
Aristide
Torrijos
Attack on Pearl Harbor
Lusitania
Gulf of Tonkin Incident
Attacks of September 11, 2001

You have to accept that as a soldier, you can be used for whatever, whomever is in charge at the time wants. In this day and age, where the democratic checks on executive power have been rolled back and 2 generations of Bush's have successfully planted the idea of a president declaring war in the minds of the people in this nation, as standard operating procedure, you also have to accept that your actions as a soldier no longer hold the same validity as they once did. United State's soldiers are no longer United State's soldiers when they carry out the plans of a few men's grandiose visions of continued American hegemony and dominance in the face of insurmountable odds. American Soldiers in Iraq, Nazi soldiers in Poland are not carrying out the will of the masses. Most people in this country either -A- Blindly support any military action because they believe it "patriotic" and would like to think of themselves as "patriots" or -B- Do not blindly support the actions of the government and military but "support the troops."

I support the troops insofar as I realize it is not their decision to go to war and that they are merely following orders and signed up to protect their homes, their loved ones, their families and provide a safer future for their children. The average soldier in Iraq isn't there because they enjoy killing people or are getting some of the action from those no bid contracts that are flying around like dust in a Northwestern Iraq sandstorm. Those soldiers are there because they got sold a line about protecting America at sometime in the past and they bought it. Their existence, imperils the world, it does not serve, usually, to protect anything except for the interests of the few. However, they are there and they have had a hand in the deaths of somewhere between 350,000 Iraqi deaths to upwards of 1,000,000 Iraqi deaths depending on which estimates one uses.

Yes you may be doing some good in Iraq, but from a utilitarian standpoint how much evil has been done? Are the Iraqi people better off today than they were under Saddaam? Perhaps. I will even go so far as to say that they are, unequivocally better off. Then my next question to you would be was that the intention of the American Government's military action? Or was it to set up a Standing military presence in the middle east, with bases and forts and supply lines to establish American dominance in the region and to displace Iran as a regional hegemon. Was it for the good of the American people? Was it for the good of the Iraqi people? or is any good to come out of this just a happy coincidence? It is clear that the emphasis was not on preserving sites of cultural significance, restoring law and order, preventing looting or providing vital human services.

Just because I live in a country that affords me the freedoms of thinking critically, which most choose to eschew, how in the world does that mean that I should sit quietly and digest whatever garbage the government attempts to feed me? It is because I live in such a place that I have a responsibility to stand up to perceived injustices and to use my voice. There is no use in having freedoms if you sit idly by as they are stripped away, as every president for the past 100 years or so has been doing. You think yourself a patriot because you are willing to kill people for whatever reason a superior officer tells you to. These two things are not mutually inclusive, and even if they were what would it matter? What good is it to be a patriot in a country which is not worth your patriotism. In a country where a president purposefully implements a healthcare policy based on depriving citizens of healthcare, as Nixon did. A country where people are still denied equal protection under the law. A country that turned our monetary system over to private banks without true oversight. A country that has over 730 military bases in 63 countries )as of 2005 I believe).

The worst part about soldiers is that they can execute their jobs perfectly, defeat a clearly defined enemy and the government will still exploit the fruits of their toils, just as they did after WWI (which helped to cause WWII) and after WWII, the Korean war and the Vietnam war. The United States government, since the war of 1812 has been primarily interested in one thing and one thing only: Empire. Edited March 5, 2009 by An1m

[Will_Evo]

You know what...as much as you say it and believe it..I am not a mindless fool..I was not sold some line, I did not become a soldier because I had nothing else...I am the exact opposite, I was in college, I had two scholarships and a grant..I was getting paid to show up to school...but you know what made me leave...wasting 4 years of my life to earn a piece of paper that says I am qualified for a job, now that is some idealistic bullshit.

You think you have all the answers. You think, therefore you know...I bet my life, that had this topic come up between you and I during World War 2, your attitude would be 100% reversed...know why? Because all of a sudden its your life at risk..not some soldier you don't know who has to follow orders. If you have such a problem with our country and the way it is ran, why the fuck are you still here? LMAO how old are you? like 22? And you think you have all the answers to every conflict the US has ever been involved in... I admit I don't know, but I do know given the chance, I would have fought in every single one of them, because whats the point of being patriotic to a country if it gets wiped off the earth because you didn't believe in the military? You know what, you aren't even worth the time to reply, I could sit here and argue your points...but I wouldn't be accomplishing anything. Kid..you are pathetic.


-Evo

[An1m]

You know what...as much as you say it and believe it..I am not a mindless fool..I was not sold some line, I did not become a soldier because I had nothing else...I am the exact opposite, I was in college, I had two scholarships and a grant..I was getting paid to show up to school...but you know what made me leave...wasting 4 years of my life to earn a piece of paper that says I am qualified for a job, now that is some idealistic bullshit.

You think you have all the answers. You think, therefore you know...I bet my life, that had this topic come up between you and I during World War 2, your attitude would be 100% reversed...know why? Because all of a sudden its your life at risk..not some soldier you don't know who has to follow orders. If you have such a problem with our country and the way it is ran, why the fuck are you still here? LMAO how old are you? like 22? And you think you have all the answers to every conflict the US has ever been involved in... I admit I don't know, but I do know given the chance, I would have fought in every single one of them, because whats the point of being patriotic to a country if it gets wiped off the earth because you didn't believe in the military? You know what, you aren't even worth the time to reply, I could sit here and argue your points...but I wouldn't be accomplishing anything. Kid..you are pathetic.


-Evo

Nice try at an ad hominem argument in which you attempted to invalidate my points on the grounds that I am pathetic and not worth the time to reply. I am NOT patriotic to this country or to any other. I have never said the pledge of allegiance in my 21 years and I do not believe I have all of the answers to anything. I do, however, believe that the "answers" are not to be found in blind allegiance to anyone or anything and certainly not in submission to any entity which claims authority over me and my person.

You claim that you aren't a mindless fool yet curiously you state: "I admit I don't know, but I do know given the chance, I would have fought in every single one of them, because whats the point of being patriotic to a country if it gets wiped off the earth because you didn't believe in the military?"

Though I never called you a mindless fool this statement seems to contradict what you have said.

"I am the exact opposite, I was in college, I had two scholarships and a grant..I was getting paid to show up to school...but you know what made me leave...wasting 4 years of my life to earn a piece of paper that says I am qualified for a job, now that is some idealistic bullshit"

What does this have to do with anything? College is now a place where critical thought goes to die. The protruding nail is hammered down in the collection of yuppie factories that America calls its university system. You may be intelligent, you may be a genius, you do seem to show a lack of respect for critical thought and judging from your posts you lack the ability to think critically about certain things. There are hundreds of thousands of intelligent people in this world, not all of them are thinkers however. The world needs accountants, engineers, doctors, lawyers, and bureacrats. That is what universities are for. The world also needs thinkers, people willing to challenge the world's own notion of itself and these people are not molded in today's unversities.