Zeitgeist

[btuner]

Please watch the whole thing before you post, and please do not make assumptions or post remarks regarding other videos you have seen
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=71...h&plindex=0

Very powerful video about 911
Thoughts? Discuss... Edited December 14, 2007 by btuner

[gaia.plateau]

Synopsis please?

Someone suggested that I watch this 6 months ago or so, but I semi-consciously associated it with Spare Change which was a joke, so I didn't invest 33 minutes in it.

[btuner]

It's Pretty much the most compelling 911 video ever made, the others don't even come close. It goes through every aspect of 911 and lays it out for you. pretty hard not to believe after seeing this. Edited December 13, 2007 by btuner

[gaia.plateau]

But what is it about? What are its arguments? What evidence does it use?

Edit: okay, nevermind, watched the first 45 seconds...

"It looks like a building being dynamited, being purposely blown up".

9/11 was not a controlled explosion. It just isn't remotely possible. What you're suggesting is that thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of average Americans including construction workers, contractors, firemen, police officers, politicians, and soldiers, most of whom would have nothing to gain, collaborated in an incredibly elaborate web of conspiracy. Do you really think that the Bush administration, or any administration in history, could have pulled this off? Laughable.

Now what is possible, is that a certain few elites, perhaps or perhaps not including Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz but probably not George W. Bush, enlisted or encouraged Osama Bin Laden to carry out the attacks, to regain geopolitical and economic power in the Middle East.

Evidence for this theory, and I'm not saying that I subscribe to it, can be found in...

1. Theoretical motive. It's no secret that many Western leaders, and the current US administration especially, view the world as a zero-sum, self-help system. From a realist perspective, arranging for Islamic fundamentalists to attack major US economic and military symbols makes perfect tactical sense. It a allows for justifiable, though illegal entry into the Middle East, and b facilitates the proliferation of fear among the American populace, allowing those in power to easily manipulate public opinion.

2. Exploitation of this entry into the Middle East and proliferation of fear. The invasion of Iraq was undertaken through pretenses which were almost certainly intentionally false, and rhetoric has been intensely tactical and adaptive. I won't elaborate on these unless requested to. The suspension of Habeus Corpus, the MCA, and the Patriot Act are direct and deliberate exploitations of the fear which has proliferated among many Americans, and unless the current US administration, not to mention defense corporations, got extremely lucky, the 9/11 attacks were intended to enable these exploitations.

To reiterate, I do not necessarily believe that this is the case, but it does make sense, and even though I was only 15 in 2001 I remember thinking that the 9/11 attacks were a stroke of luck for the US hegemonic imperative. It makes a hell of a lot more sense that 5 or 6 extremely elite and powerful people might be in on a conspiracy, than tens of thousands of average Americans with nothing to gain.

Now, to undermine everything I just propounded, in a way...

9/11 has changed nothing. 9/11, and the subsequent Global War on Terror, are merely symptomatic of a very long process which has been going on for many decades. The only things that 9/11 has directly effected are a sharp increase in civilizational ignorance and fear among lay Westerners, and a sharp increase in the Zeitgeist among many Muslims that their civilization and religion is under attack. These beliefs are not tangible changes, and likely will not survive this decade. Edited December 13, 2007 by gaia.plateau

[Johnny_D]

Oh no, not again.

More conspiracy rubbish?

There was a conspiracy - it was with a bunch of camel herders who got lucky. Plain & Simple [1].
Most goverments can't find there ass with two hands and a torch, let alone the kind of rubbish
loose change was peddling. Not to mention the Pod People[2].

JD

[1] - No pun intended.
[2] - You know the 'the plains were remote controlled and had super pods underneath!11!!!!!!111!!'

[nicayotte]

I don't know why people keep looking for answers, its not like a game where when we solve it all the people who are dead come back and the buildings can be reset up. We should just work on getting our asses through this so called war and worry about toher important ideas such as gas prices and the currency value...

[btuner]

did anyone actually watch the whole thing? or are you just basing what you say off other stuff you have seen?

and speaking of currency value: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=49...h&plindex=0 Edited December 13, 2007 by btuner

[Akkbar]

JD said it best.
I have nothing more to add.
Nailed it, JD did.

[btuner]

JD said it best.
I have nothing more to add.
Nailed it, JD did.

If you haven't watched the whole video, please keep remarks to yourself

Thank you gaia for an actual response that was on topic! Edited December 14, 2007 by btuner

[ASUSEAN1]

yea the whole move is 2 hours long

[btuner]

actually its only 33mins the part i wanted everyone to watch

[gaia.plateau]

There was a conspiracy - it was with a bunch of camel herders who got lucky. Plain & Simple

First... nice pun, intentional or not.

Second... I wouldn't call it simple. It's more important to understand why the 9/11 attacks happened, than how they happened.

A century of Western oppression against Muslim civilizations in the Middle East, of Florida-printed textbooks in Afghanistan teaching how many bullets it takes with how many guns to kill how many Soviets, and numerous American and British operations to overthrow democratic regimes, replacing them with brutal warlords and dictators...

As I posted, 9/11 was symptomatic of the times... the only unnatural aspect of the attacks was our surprise. Edited December 15, 2007 by gaia.plateau

[Bulldog_916]

Johnny, I wouldnt be feeling that way in the UK either. London was train bombed by that same set of people. Yea, it wasnt nearly as devastating as the 9/11 attacks but it struck fear where it was supposed to. Before saying they got "lucky" think about the level to which it was planned, oversimplifying it far underestimates the attackers.

[TheScotsman]

More stupidity.

It's like a bad version of Art Bell's "coast to coast"... wait, I think he did this same crap.

Of course there were gov't contingencies based around the WTC, There were previous attempts to drop it.

Trying exonerate OBL is so insanely stupid I can't believe I wasted time/bandwidth on that rubbish.

That stupidity about it not being a jet that hit the pentagon, ever see a ground-zero crater from a jet? Bloody little left, even at landing speed, much less WOT into a hardened structure.

The video does not take the unique construction of the WTC in consideration, they show a low grade animation of a column-core structure, but the WTC was an external load bearing wall structure. The concrete "shell" is what held it all up. There were trusses supporting the floors, once one cooked, and failed it was all over.

Kerosene couldn't melt steel? Who the hell would believe that? When Iron ore is smelted, or steel was made in early Bessemers they "melted" steel with coal! (not really a true melting, but more on that later) All it needs is a good healthy draft, Since the structures, once the initial overpressure blew windows out, and doors off their hinges, was a good flue, I don't think there was any lack of draft! There were citizens reporting extreme wind going INTO the underground. (feeding into the WTC basement... further creating a flue through the elevator shafts. ) We have all seen Aluminium, and even steel cans melt in the intense heat of the coals of a nice campfire. I seem to remember an overpass that collapsed after a fuel tanker fire "melted" the steel superstructure. (and that was an unconfined fire, not intensified by draft, nor containment.)

Moreover, once heated to chery-red steel will begin an exothermic reaction, (Bessemer conversion process) The steel will literally burn itself. Now, remember that big hunk of Aluminium/magnesium alloy called an airplane? There is no doubt the impact, and resulting explosion melted huge portions of the craft. The Exothermic reaction of iron is intensified by Aluminium. That is EXACTLY what thermite is! http://www.metacafe.com/watch/599982/how_to_make_thermite/ (great video. don't try, you will hurt something... like yourself.) Did you see a red bull can melt a 1/2" steel plate? imagine 250,000 pounds of thermite and igniter.

Aye, there were bombs, the most powerful non-nuclear bombs in the world are thermobaric devices. The temperatures in a thermobaric weapon explosion can top 2800C, (steel is yellow-hot at about 1050C, and it's fluid at 2500C) well more than enough to melt any steel. As the fuel atomized upon a 450knt impact the fuel tanks became thermobaric devices. The destructive effects of a large thermobaric device are compounded by the intense vacuum that follows the overpressure. That alone would have compromised the structure beyond survival.

That "movie" just more of rossie o'donnell's (I refuse to capitalize that name) blabber-mouth BS. Meant to try to instill some conspiracy suspicions in the entirely uninformed.

[entrailsgalore]

I watched the entire 2 hour movie. It is very interesting. Everything in that video is presented with a non radical theory backed up by evidence. A lot of evidence. There are too many things in that video to be labeled as coincidence. I am not going to debate politics or religion but I will say that everything shown in that video makes sense. The beginning, the middle and the end. If I had to sum this up in one word it would be = Scary.

[Bulldog_916]

Here's the thing. Most of the people in that movie and all the other "9/11 Truth Movement" films who present the theories are not physicists, engineers, or government experts. They are film makers. When the film makers (non experts) look at the "evidence" they've collected, their questions seem valid by what they are seeing. In their minds, their theories makes sense. In the mind of the lay person (also non-experts without any real valid experience), the "evidence" points the way the film makers want it to point, which is to a "conspiracy." Plus, we dont know if the actual experts presented in the movie were edited to have the contexts of their language twisted. The media's job is to sensationalize a story to sell a story. Film makers are just as much a part of the media as Fox News or CNN. Let's be real here, there are so many people inside government with big mouths. If they cant keep the identity of an active CIA operative (aka Valerie Plame) secret, what the hell makes you think they could keep a massive conspiracy the caliber of 9/11 a secret? Something would give. In this case, it isnt giving. Our government may be incompetent or borderline moronic at times, but they wouldnt do something so stupid as to kill 3000 people and think they could keep it a secret for eternity.

Edit to add my opinions as I'm seeing the film again:

So far, I hear a voice (dont know who it's from) talking about seeking the "truth" and that we've been "lied to."

Then George Carlin talking about religion being bullshit, more namely Christianity. Granted, I agree with this opinion, it doesnt in any way explain what is going on with the movie. So far, not impressed with the chronology of the items presented.

Primitive man's understanding of the sun and the stars, the Zodiac and the way the sun interacts with the Zodiac constellations. Using this, the personification of the constellations is explained. Horus, the Egyptian god of the sun and his story are told in his battles against Set.

So far, the stories of Egypt's Horus and Christianity's Jesus stories are paralleled. The date of birth (12/25), being born of a virgin, having of 12 desciples, being crucified and ressurected in 3 days are the parallels in the stories. (Somehow trying to explain that the Jesus story is a myth/astrological story.) Ok. Hopefully this stuff is going to be tied together later in the film.

They explain that the sun's cycle and the stories of the sun gods Horus, Jesus and others are related.

Ok, this religious/sun parallel makes sense. Granted. Human culture is abound in stories like this.

They are talking about the "ages" in terms of the Zodiac. From 3400 to 2150 BC is Taurus. 2150 BC to 1 AD is Aries age. New age sheds old age. Pisces represents the new age, the one we are in right now, 1-2150 AD. Aquarius will be after Pisces, do the math you know the age. Now it goes into the biblical "Endtimes" section. That's where I'm going to leave it for today. 26 minutes into it. To the lay person (aka me) it makes sense, but I'm not supporting this presentation because I havent done the research myself and cant trust that the narrator has either. Do some scouting and see if he's right. Edited December 28, 2007 by Bulldog_916

[uttahnuttah]

That part of the movie goes through the pagan origins of Christianity. These were all concepts that Paul innovated, to make the pagans more attracted to Christianity. Prime example is the Trinity. The pagans had a trinity so Paul made this a part of Christianity. Then at the council of Nicea all the books in the Bible that didn't talk about trinity were thrown out. It should be called Paulianity, lol, he twisted the true teachings of Jesus up big time....they're basically all lost today. He composed all of the new testament, thats why you find its got many contradictions.

Peace

[r1v3th3ad]

Does anyone ever look at the pentagon vid? A boeing 747 is roughly two stories tall, what hit the pentagon from what the vid shows? Certainly not a boeing, it was like five feet off the ground. What punches a perfect hole and leaves no airplane parts behind?...Or what about one of the U.S.'s top fighter jets that just happened to be caught on film flying over just as the "boeing 747" hit the pentagon. O ya, what about the other vids of the crash that the FBI took and will not release? I'm sorry, but something smells fishy.

Sorry, I've watched most stuff on 9/11, I don't have the patients at this moment to watch that clip, I strongly believe it wasn't terrorists from Al-Queda. Edited January 15, 2008 by r1v3th3ad

[Gold Wing Gunner]

I just watched the video, and I still dont belive that the US Govt was responsible in anyway; and if the government had jumped on anyone, or done anything drastic like shut down airports then the american people would have made such a fuss over them getting shut down over 'nothing' when nothing happens because preventive action was taken, everyone gets mad and says nothing was going to happen.

If anything has anyone even put anything into the thought that perhaps another country had set it up? Maybe another country like Russia, who has a Very Very Very strong interest in the US' military, investigative, and economic power; could have set it up? Russia is very powerful, and has ties everywhere but noone seems to give them much attention any more? For instance did anyone hear about how Russian fighter jets keep flying into American airspace and give the reason that they 'want us to know that they are still a growing world power'? Russia started doing this a week after 9/11 and has still been doing it! No one wants to find a problem with Russia because we know that if anything happened between the US and Russia it would mean WWIII and possibly the end...

Thats my opinion, I dont believe in following what the government tells me, just like I dont believe in following what all of the anti govt movements tell me. I look for answers with an open mind. So many people see one piece of evidence and follow it to a 'truth' rather than look at Everything as a whole.

In the end it dosnt truely matter wether terrorists did it, the govt did it, or Russia did it. It happened, and even if it was used as a reason to start our 'War on Terror' this war was called for and I support it 110%! I believed action was needed before 9/11. In iraq just a little more than a week ago 'Army day' was celebrated (A day that Iraqi soldiers hold parades and have a good time) Several terrorsts straped bombs on their chests and walked into the middle of parades and celebrating soldiers. Why? Because they believe it is the right thing to do. What do you think about that? Why wasnt that all over the media? I didnt see one thing on the news about it, but so many innocent Iraqi soldiers and citizens died for no reason.

So why cant we move past 9/11? I know that there were so many lives lost, but there is nothing we can do to bring them back, just like there is nothing we can do to bring back the Iraqi police officers who before we invaded had an average lifespan of 3-6months due to terrorist attacks! What would the US be like if our officers only lived for 6months at a time? as of 2006 Iraqi police lifespans had grown to a year+!

but we are doing no good, all we are doing is killing innocent people in a place that we shouldnt interfere right?

Whatever the World is a place that we all must share and sory but I think its our job to make the World a better place. So are we the 'World Police' no but we are and should be good neighbors!

And that is my opinion on the matter...

[gaia.plateau]

I think the reason that many people are not "moving past" 9/11, is that the currently increasing suppression of civil liberties in their country have been justified and catalyzed by an event (9/11), which they feel for various reasons was orchestrated by the same people implementing the suppression (Bush Administration).

[Johnny_D]

I think it might be fair to say that it's unlikely that the actual events of 9/11 were down to the US Goverment...

But that does not mean they have not captilised on said event.

Even the UK government looked to bury some bad news in the immediate days after knowing that any other story
would end up on page 67.

A government would not miss a trick like 9/11 to bring about changes they wanted. I think it's too much of a stretch in reality to consider that a government would actually bloody their nhands to gain the changes they wanted however.

JD