Hezbollah Declares War On Israel...

[oolatec]

I just want to add I also do not like to join these kind of debates. There is no right side or wrong side here. As someone posted, everyone is at fault here. There is a lot wrong in our World now and it is because everyone is away from God. No hard feelings here, I hope I did not offend anyone. I know what I see live on the news and what is out there. I read many things about the World and not just from one resource. Just a question though to throw out there. Does anyone know who controls the major part of the Media? News, TV, Newspapers etc...? How about where you phone bill is generated if you live in the States? I have a clip from Fox news about it, and I was shocked to see they even played it.

Also, could this be a start to WWIII if there is a war on Iran? Could be.

No offense taken on my part! And you are indeed correct about the world these days.

Hmmm... did the Fox News special blame Rupert Murdoch? lol

Hmmm... WWIII with an inevitible war against Iran? I doubt it. And in an attempt to get back on topic re: consequences of Hezzy delcaring war (again? seems like they always declare war every day)... The same will happen that happened recently. Hezzy will start launching a ton of shit into Israel from populated civilian areas, turn tail and run, leaving the civilians to take the brunt of a response from Israel. Same shit, different day.

WWIII will come when someone *cough* has to rescue Europe again... from a "creeping, unforseen evil" that everyone turned a blind eye to. Happens every 30-50 years it seems.

[Johnny_D]

I had a response typed but what's the point. I'm out of this discussion, rather worse off from reading it.

[TheScotsman]

rescue Europe? You mean France... again.
By the time the USA actually showed up in GB Germany was halted, and for the most part beat. Germany had given up it's plan to invade the islands of greater Britain. Bomber Command had already begun raids against targets on the continent.

If there was saving going on, it was the UK saving a landing spot for US troops, and aircraft. After all, the USA was pretty frantic GB would fall, and came ups with the silly B-36 Peacemaker in hopes of flying from the USA to Europe.

Save my arse. In the end the Soviet Union would have beaten Germany, with or without America "saving" Europe.

England ended up owing billions to the USA while the USA spent billions to rebuild France, Germany, and Italy. GB paid over 10 billion to pay off a 4.3 billion bill. (Which she DID pay off.) What about the costs/reparations from France, Italy, Germany? How about the massive lend lease bill from the USSR? Hmmmm...

Damn American history books seem to think they were published in the center of the known universe.

I can't resist quoting GB Shaw..."The 100% American is 99% idiot" (Putting on flame resistant suit before pushing Add Reply button.... )

[oolatec]

rescue Europe? You mean France... again.
By the time the USA actually showed up in GB Germany was halted, and for the most part beat. Germany had given up it's plan to invade the islands of greater Britain. Bomber Command had already begun raids against targets on the continent.

If there was saving going on, it was the UK saving a landing spot for US troops, and aircraft. After all, the USA was pretty frantic GB would fall, and came ups with the silly B-36 Peacemaker in hopes of flying from the USA to Europe.

Save my arse. In the end the Soviet Union would have beaten Germany, with or without America "saving" Europe.

England ended up owing billions to the USA while the USA spent billions to rebuild France, Germany, and Italy. GB paid over 10 billion to pay off a 4.3 billion bill. (Which she DID pay off.) What about the costs/reparations from France, Italy, Germany? How about the massive lend lease bill from the USSR? Hmmmm...

Damn American history books seem to think they were published in the center of the known universe.

I can't resist quoting GB Shaw..."The 100% American is 99% idiot" (Putting on flame resistant suit before pushing Add Reply button.... )

lol

I meant "Saving Europe" in the generic sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I wonder how the Soviets would have faired against Japan though... or if they could have even made it over the pond...

[gaia.plateau]

lol

I meant "Saving Europe" in the generic sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I wonder how the Soviets would have faired against Japan though... or if they could have even made it over the pond...

They wouldn't have been as successful militarily, but I would surmise that they would probably accept their surrender, instead of needlessly nuking hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

And not only would they have beaten Germany without British/American help, they did. Stalingrad, as well as the preceding battles, were what crushed the Nazi armies, ~70% of them in fact, and Russia received exactly zero support from the Brits, Canucks and Yanks while we were fighting ~12-15% in Europe. Edited February 17, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[TheScotsman]

And not only would they have beaten Germany without British/American help, they did. Stalingrad, as well as the preceding battles, were what crushed the Nazi armies, ~70% of them in fact, and Russia received exactly zero support from the Brits, Canucks and Yanks while we were fighting ~12-15% in Europe.

A motivated people, in a total-war, something Hitler never thought possible from the USSR, after all, he thought they were sub-human.

Japan was already beaten, there was no need to nuke them, except to "war test" an atomic warhead, mainly (IMNHO) as a statement to the rest of the world. The incendiary bombing had already destroyed most of the war production. The emperor was looking for a way to surrender, and save some face.... and his life from war-monger generals. 2 months time, and there would have been the same results without shadow-images of children permanently burned into concrete walls as they were incinerated.

[oolatec]

lol

I meant "Saving Europe" in the generic sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I wonder how the Soviets would have faired against Japan though... or if they could have even made it over the pond...

They wouldn't have been as successful militarily, but I would surmise that they would probably accept their surrender, instead of needlessly nuking hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

And not only would they have beaten Germany without British/American help, they did. Stalingrad, as well as the preceding battles, were what crushed the Nazi armies, ~70% of them in fact, and Russia received exactly zero support from the Brits, Canucks and Yanks while we were fighting ~12-15% in Europe.

Japan wouldn't have surrendered without the nukes, unfortunately. And the war would have most likely cost even more lives.

Not so sure if the Soviets would have defeated Germany without our help... at least not in 1945. They only attacked Hitler on one front basically. From the East. When the US got involved, Hitler had to shuffle his resources around, and that spread him too thin.

And I shudder the thought of the Soviets occupying post-WWII Germany/Japan to the present day. Ack.

Ever see the Ken Burns film "The War"? A remarkable accounting of WWII. Highly suggested.

http://www.netflix.com/Movie/The_War_A_Ken...d=836514268_1_0

Also, Downfall is another fantastic film... not quite a documentary... but a great re-enactment of the final days of Hitler and his regime none the less.

http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Downfall/7002...=1660248821_0_0

[gaia.plateau]

A motivated people, in a total-war, something Hitler never thought possible from the USSR, after all, he thought they were sub-human.

Ironically, it's because he thought that they were sub-human that they became a motivated people. Hitler lost because of Russia, but more accurately because he began to believe his own propaganda. The Russian people had been unsupportive of communism, and most of them hated Stalin... if Hitler had handled them diplomatically he could have gotten the Russians to outright lay down their arms, or even overthrow Stalin and join the fascist movement- this would have most likely garnered a Nazi victory in WW2. Instead he treated them like parasites and insects, and openly so, creating a nationalist movement in Russia that had never before happened in history, galvanizing the population into their victorious battlefield fervour and effectively doubling Russia's industrialization.

[gaia.plateau]

Japan wouldn't have surrendered without the nukes, unfortunately. And the war would have most likely cost even more lives.

Not true at all, Japan surrendered numerous times during the summer before the war, nearly unconditionally. Their only condition was that the emperor remain in power- and after the nukes, the US allowed the emperor to stay in power, effectively accepting the exact surrender that was offered numerous times before the nukes.

Sources
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=016...3E2.0.CO%3B2-V
http://books.google.ca/books?id=WGQL...mbnail#PPP1,M1
http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogu...sbn=0521862442
http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/singl...sact/27/8.html
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...ch&plind ex=1

The Scotsman is correct, though in my studies most scholars believe that it was not so much a "war test" as it was an intimidation effort against the Soviet Union, which is why they chose Hiroshima as the primary target; it was surrounded by mountains, which amplified the effect of the bomb through the "echo effect".

Japan was already beaten, there was no need to nuke them, except to "war test" an atomic warhead, mainly (IMNHO) as a statement to the rest of the world. The incendiary bombing had already destroyed most of the war production. The emperor was looking for a way to surrender, and save some face.... and his life from war-monger generals. 2 months time, and there would have been the same results without shadow-images of children permanently burned into concrete walls as they were incinerated.

[oolatec]

Japan surrendered before the war? Not sure I'm following you...

For surrendering, the Japanese had a funny way of showing it... literally training old men, women, and children how to fight with pitchforks, shovels, sticks etc...

An invasion of the mainlands of Japan would have been disastrous for all sides, and it would have only made the war longer... casualties astronomically higher

Hell, we lost an average of 1600 soldiers a day just taking Iwo Jima alone.

Read up on Operation Downfall.

[gaia.plateau]

Did you not click on any of those links I sent you? If you're not in the mood to read, watch between minutes 16 and 20 of the last link, it's a video featuring the children of Eisenhower, John McCain, Gore Vidal, and many senior officers from the defense department.

Second link is Eisenhower's memoirs, two others are academic journal articles, and one is a personal entry.

It's fact that Japan tried to surrender months before the bombing, repeatedly.

[Texico]

I just want to say. Britain "created" Israel after WWI. It wasn't an official country at the time, but they supported Zionism as part of their plan for the Middle East after the war. Also, even if the Central Powers had won the war Germany was in support of Zionism, too. Germany included in their post-war plans for their ALLY to allow Jews to settle in Palestine. I think, either way, this was going to happen.

Now, both sides are equally responsible for what is happening.

I don't think that this will result in WWIII. Israel has already proven that it can handle an open conflict, and they are doing fairly well against terrorism in their country. However, they are also fomenting the terrorist movement by their own actions. It is a self-perpetuating conflict. And, since I have no love for my fellow man (nor do I have a hatred toward my fellow man. It's more like ambivalence toward them) I don't really care what they do to each other. The sooner we destroy ourselves the sooner the world will become a better place.

[NoPeace]

I support Israel. Im a converted Jew so of course im somewhat biased but everyone else is on this forum too. Im not gonna go into why i support them because whatever i say, someone will just come out and say that im wrong and that im just giving into propoganda and ill end up saying just about the same thing back. the reality is tho is that the majority of news stations out now like BBC, CNN, and of course FOX (big surprise ) are EXTREMELY anti-semitic and will do just about anything to make the israeli's look bad. of course some things that the israelis have done have been stupid but in my opinion the palestinians have done WAY worse and pretty much started this whole mess. just in my opnion.

[Snoopy1966]

CNN and Fox anti-semitic? You are kidding right? They are owned by the Jews. All 3 off the stations you have stated are against Islam and do their best to to 'try' and drive Islam into the ground. In fact as I asked before, and nobody has responded. The major News, newspaper, etc are owned and operated by the Jews.

Tell me RPG's can do this? Palestinians have done worse?? It is an onslaught of killing there everyday. Israelis killing Palestinians.

Palestine has tanks?? I do not think so. How would you like 30 seconds to evacuate your house before it is blown up? I have seen it LIVE.


How would you like to get you water like this if you dont get killed in the process?



There is a terrorist















So show me the Israelis living like this? I could show more but just seeing these pictures make me ill. The Palestinians have fought back because of what has been done to them. You live like this for 40 years and tell me what you would do? Would you fight back? I think so.

I forgot to add this propaganda here. Sheesh

[Johnny_D]

I notice how you conviently avoid all the counter arguments made Snoopy. I rather fear it is you who is brainwashed. You refuse to see this as a two sided issue. For every house bulldozed another 20 rockets his Israel. And thus another house is bulldozed.

Oh - How's farfour the mouse doing these days anyways?

JD

[Snoopy1966]

Counter arguments of what..... Sandmonkey? They are talking about Japan now and then this post slipped in. I am not brainwashed my friend. I know both sides of the story better then you do. I have a very open mind and you show your lack of seeing both sides. I am surprised at you JD. You lived in Jerusalem, and lived with Muslims and your are showing you lack of understanding and it is you that does not see both sides.
The mouse thing, that is uncalled for. I did not know anything about it until now and I just googled it. If you decide to ban me. Plz delete my account in the process also.

I have not avoided anything. Show me what I avoided and I will spell it out for you so you can understand.

I am sorry you lived in Israel somewheres.

[Johnny_D]

Let's not be martyr here with the self deleting rubbish.

And Farfor is a perfectly valid point. It sums up the national conscious. Problems both side of the fence. Read Oolatec's posts fully - They are well balanced and add some excellent points which I am happy to fully admit far outstrip my abilities to argue.

JD

[Snoopy1966]

What did I delete?? Yes there are problems on both sides of the fence, duh.

[Johnny_D]

The mouse thing, that is uncalled for. I did not know anything about it until now and I just googled it. If you decide to ban me. Plz delete my account in the process also.

your talking abouts bans and deleting?!?!? Christ only knows why.

I may disagree with you - I may even disagree with you fervently. But no one is going to ban or delete.

[Snoopy1966]

No you said I deleted something? what is it? Yes here is a good part of oolatecs post. Must not have read the whole article. That is why I did not respond. He shot himself in the foot many times with his own stuff

Gaza is no longer approaching economic collapse. It has collapsed. Given the intensity of repression Gaza is facing, can the collapse of its society - family, neighborhood, and community structure - be far behind? If that happens, we shall all suffer the consequences for generations to come.

Yes you are right JD that was a great point. Thanks.
Just so you do not think I am lying here now
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editoria...lehold_on_gaza/

No I do not want to be banned, but that is how I feel what the forum will do. I did not delete anything I have only added to my posts.

[Johnny_D]

No you said I deleted something? what is it?
Just so you do not think I am lying here now
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editoria...lehold_on_gaza/

No I do not want to be banned, but that is how I feel what the forum will do. I did not delete anything I have only added to my posts.

No one said you deleted anything - I said don't be a martyr with all the 'delete my account' rubbish.

No one said anything banning. There are 4 people here that would do that. And I don't really appreciate the slight that I might do such a thing to win a discussion. I will not deal with this point again.

[--]

Yes that report shows that someone made a dumb decision. Politicians do this a lot. Just today the PM of England made a really dumb decision in regard to one our banking insitutions.

What about all the money that the Palestian goverments spend on arms and the like? If you want to hate Israel that is fine - But Palestine is hardly without blame?

[r1v3th3ad]

I support Israel. Im a converted Jew so of course im somewhat biased but everyone else is on this forum too. Im not gonna go into why i support them because whatever i say, someone will just come out and say that im wrong and that im just giving into propoganda and ill end up saying just about the same thing back. the reality is tho is that the majority of news stations out now like BBC, CNN, and of course FOX (big surprise ) are EXTREMELY anti-semitic and will do just about anything to make the israeli's look bad. of course some things that the israelis have done have been stupid but in my opinion the palestinians have done WAY worse and pretty much started this whole mess. just in my opnion.

I don't think that its that the news are anti-sematic, its that they are anti-zionist. Zionism is a topsy turvy issue these days. I've seen the anti and the pro sides. Hell, I've seen pictures of marches of rabbis united against zionism. As for Fox, that is controlled by U.S. gov. considering Bush's cousin owns it. That shows support to Israel in my eyes considering how much money the U.S. hands them every year.
I don't support either side in this. I think that land should be peacefully shared by all, it is homeland to three major faithlines in the world, but yet I know there will never be peace there until one group eliminates the other. That is why I would rather see the fighting continue, because I think the only outcome, the only victory would really be genocide, and no one wants that(especially because that, in my eyes is a despicable, horrid victory). We all know that know no one is gonna sit down with a hookah and be be civil, say "Hey, this is rediculous. We are wasting our resources and that that is most precious to us, human life. Why don't we just co-exist in this land, maybe form a joint government?" I doubt there will ever be an end, we all need to accept this, they know this, they just buy time with these peace treaties. But who knows, maybe my hypothetical situation there will one day go through one of their future leader's heads and there will be a savior, a peace keeper. Until then, the rest of the world just has to accept what is going on, even with how unacceptable it may be. This is the only way we can keep from having another war, or to keep from going back to the way things were when there were the "great empires". Edited February 18, 2008 by r1v3th3ad

[NoPeace]

CNN and Fox anti-semitic? You are kidding right? They are owned by the Jews. All 3 off the stations you have stated are against Islam and do their best to to 'try' and drive Islam into the ground. In fact as I asked before, and nobody has responded. The major News, newspaper, etc are owned and operated by the Jews.

Tell me RPG's can do this? Palestinians have done worse?? It is an onslaught of killing there everyday. Israelis killing Palestinians.

Palestine has tanks?? I do not think so. How would you like 30 seconds to evacuate your house before it is blown up? I have seen it LIVE.


How would you like to get you water like this if you dont get killed in the process?



There is a terrorist















So show me the Israelis living like this? I could show more but just seeing these pictures make me ill. The Palestinians have fought back because of what has been done to them. You live like this for 40 years and tell me what you would do? Would you fight back? I think so.

I forgot to add this propaganda here. Sheesh

dude the palestinians started suicide bombing israel!!! has everyone fucking forgotten that? what about how hezbollah was trying to shoot those ghetto rockets into israel in CIVILIAN areas. how about when israel was attacking lebanon because the lebanese government was allowing hezbola groups to stay in civilian households and the israelis wouldnt drop the bombs in the area because the civilians where HELPING the hezbola by standing where they were located!!!! am i losing my mind or are these facts somehow ignored? how about when my israelis friends sister was blown up at a LIBRARY by some fucked up little palestinian terrorist. yep its those dirty jews who are going around killing all those starving poor palestinians.

Maybe if the palestinians wanted peace so fucking badly then they could possibly try to institute peace with the israelis instead of supporting the group that the israelis fight against!!! does the name Yitzhak Rabin ring a bell??? the Israeli prime minister who attempted to make peace with the palestinians who, when he sadly died, the palestinians went on a fucking rampage because the radical palestinian terrorists started preaching of a new palestine where all the jews would be dead and all this shit started happening. Ever since the country of Israel was established the Israelis have been trying to make peace with the palestinians when all the palestinians have been doing is helping the terrorist groups and suicide bombers who the Israelis are fighting against! How can you attempt to institute peace when the people you attempt to make peace with are helping the group you are fighting against. Now i know and i acknowledge israel has made mistakes and i do not believe that all palestinians are bad in any way, whereas im sure you believe every israeli is evil. i have MANY neighbors who are palestinian both in support of israel and not in support, do i think they are evil people who are trying to support hezbollah. Not at all. do i think their relatives in Israel and the Gaza strip are in helping hezbollah, i know they arnt, ive met many of them.

Now let me ask you this question. If israel ceased fire and attempted to give everyone complete equality and everything do you think that the war would be over and there would be no more killings? heres my answer. NO WAY IN HELL! the radical palestinians would do everything in their power to try to claim whatever they can for themselves and kill the israelis. why? because the Radical Palestinians want EVERYTHING and leave the Israelis with nothing.
Now let me ask you another question. WHat do you propose israel do? Edited February 18, 2008 by NoPeace

[Snoopy1966]

The point is why did the Palestinians start suicide bombing? For all the reasons I posted. Is is right? no of course not. I did not bother to read the rest of your post yet, they did not just start for no reason. Remember? Do some reading and get back to me. You are totally unaware of this situation. When you are oppressed like they have been, what would you do? What is your response to the map? None I am sure. Israel has taken over a land by force, period. No ifs ands or buts.


No I do not hate Israel. That would be dumb. I am a man of religion, not hatred.

Now let me ask you this question. If israel ceased fire and attempted to give everyone complete equality and everything do you think that the war would be over and there would be no more killings? heres my answer. NO WAY IN HELL! the radical palestinians would do everything in their power to try to claim whatever they can for themselves and kill the israelis. why? because the Radical Palestinians want EVERYTHING and leave the Israelis with nothing.
Now let me ask you another question. WHat do you propose israel do?

First question is yes, most would stop, but as you said there are extremists on both sides, Israel would not stop either. Well the land is theirs....(Palestine)so I would fight for my land. Just think what would have happened here in the US is they did not abolish the Squatters rights law?? Same thing that is happening in the Middle East. No documents of land ownership, just many many generations living and working the land. So you think Sharon's killing or thousands and thousands of Palestinians is OK? Remember when he drank and danced on their dead bodies? That man destroyed thousands of innocent Muslims for no reason. This is some of what started this fight you see now.

What should Israel do, look at the map and tell me? Give some land back and stay the heck out of it!
Give them the State they deserve. That map speaks thousands of words. So that is nothing to you? Is it right they took over the land like that? No reasons hey, I think you are wearing rose colored glasses. As I have said before, both sides are wrong here, and it does take 2 to fight.

The same goes for the radical Jews, they will not stop killing either.

[NoPeace]

The point is why did the Palestinians start suicide bombing? For all the reasons I posted. Is is right? no of course not. I did not bother to read the rest of your post yet, they did not just start for no reason. Remember? Do some reading and get back to me. You are totally unaware of this situation. When you are oppressed like they have been, what would you do? What is your response to the map? None I am sure. Israel has taken over a land by force, period. No ifs ands or buts.


No I do not hate Israel. That would be dumb. I am a man of religion, not hatred.

Now let me ask you this question. If israel ceased fire and attempted to give everyone complete equality and everything do you think that the war would be over and there would be no more killings? heres my answer. NO WAY IN HELL! the radical palestinians would do everything in their power to try to claim whatever they can for themselves and kill the israelis. why? because the Radical Palestinians want EVERYTHING and leave the Israelis with nothing.
Now let me ask you another question. WHat do you propose israel do?

First question is yes, most would stop, but as you said there are extremists on both sides, Israel would not stop either. Well the land is theirs....(Palestine)so I would fight for my land. Just think what would have happened here in the US is they did not abolish the Squatters rights law?? Same thing that is happening in the Middle East. No documents of land ownership, just many many generations living and working the land. So you think Sharon's killing or thousands and thousands of Palestinians is OK? Remember when he drank and danced on their dead bodies? That man destroyed thousands of innocent Muslims for no reason. This is some of what started this fight you see now.

What should Israel do, look at the map and tell me? Give some land back and stay the heck out of it!
Give them the State they deserve. That map speaks thousands of words. So that is nothing to you? Is it right they took over the land like that? No reasons hey, I think you are wearing rose colored glasses. As I have said before, both sides are wrong here, and it does take 2 to fight.

The same goes for the radical Jews, they will not stop killing either.

but you dont realize that if israel tried to give palestinians more land, which they have tried to do, the palestinians just demand more. also you dont realize that this is a religious war and the palestinians hate the jews for being jewish and therefore want them out of the land. also, it was an israeli (not called that at the time) area before palestine. this goes back way before palestine and many people fail to realize that. they think that it has always been palestine when it reality it hasnt and for the most part we dont know who originally had it. also when you look at any map of a take over that is what it looks like. also look at how much land the jews had and that was decreasing until the jews started to acquire land! they were killing off their jewish population. if you look at the map sequence in reverse that would be what would happen if the jews let their guard down and tried to make peace! Edited February 18, 2008 by NoPeace