Castro Resigns!

[raytrace]

Umm... yeah Cuba is so great that people are still trying to escape there to come to America.

Of course, Cuba does have a source of external income (I know this for a fact) in the area of selling sex slaves.

If it's a fact, present a source like I did.

Googling Cuba + "government sanctioned sex trade" yields no results.

So yep, Cuba is so great.......... wait, why aren't you beating down the doors trying to get into Cuba yourself if it's so great?

There's no doors to beat down, Canadians can travel to Cuba freely. I've spent time in 5 villages there, as well as Havanna, and met some of the most compassionate, jovial people I've ever encountered, not to mention fantastic cigars, mojitos, and some of the most beautiful beaches I've ever seen (hard to beat the Bay Islands).

You asked for it, you got it.

Castro's Trade Policy: Sex Slaves, Illegal Drugs, and Trademark Theft

Leftist Supporters of Cuba Rewarded with Child Sex Slaves

Cubanology has a post up on how European supporters of the communist nation really spend their time when visiting the workers' paradise. It links to a video that is a bit risque, but starkly shows the exploitation of young Cuban girls by tourists. The video comes courtesy of Abajo Fidel, a great blog to read if you're interested in freedom in Cuba and Latin America. It's hard to watch, but you'll come away understanding why European and American defenders of Cuba are so unseemly, especially the men who go there any chance they get.

Not that I'm implying that Moore, or this high school teacher from the upper west side who took his kids to Cuba (and rumor has it enjoyed the night life while he was there) necessarily purchased children for sex. There are, after all, adult women for sale there as well. But child prostitution in Cuba is a problem that has been noted by human rights investigators before yet still thrives driven by greed and the sex tourism industry.

Don't expect leftists to decry this abuse of human rights though. Abusing women is only wrong if it's done by capitalism.

[gaia.plateau]

The only reason I brought up Michael Moore is because you are quoting straight from his movie Sicko, yes I have seen it, and just wanted to point out to you that he can't be trusted in his "documentaries".

No I'm not?

I only saw Sicko this year, and I've been studying Cuban education and healthcare for nearly 3 years, but nice try I visited Cuba in the Spring of 2006.

[gaia.plateau]

Leftist Supporters of Cuba Rewarded with Child Sex Slaves

Cubanology has a post up on how European supporters of the communist nation really spend their time when visiting the workers' paradise. It links to a video that is a bit risque, but starkly shows the exploitation of young Cuban girls by tourists. The video comes courtesy of Abajo Fidel, a great blog to read if you're interested in freedom in Cuba and Latin America. It's hard to watch, but you'll come away understanding why European and American defenders of Cuba are so unseemly, especially the men who go there any chance they get.

Not that I'm implying that Moore, or this high school teacher from the upper west side who took his kids to Cuba (and rumor has it enjoyed the night life while he was there) necessarily purchased children for sex. There are, after all, adult women for sale there as well. But child prostitution in Cuba is a problem that has been noted by human rights investigators before yet still thrives driven by greed and the sex tourism industry.

Don't expect leftists to decry this abuse of human rights though. Abusing women is only wrong if it's done by capitalism.

An editorial is not a source, especially one that, to make its argument, suggests that Michael Moore and his entourage likely paid for sex services in Cuba, and one that uses Rupert Murdoch owned tabloid reports as factual information.

[raytrace]

Oh, and Cuba is so great that....

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.a...261873285465105

One thing we know is that Cuba is a hostile regime. Its agents have infiltrated U.S. society — not just government. Just this year, Carlos Alvarez, a Florida professor who sent confidential records of Cuban exiles to Havana for blackmail purposes, was convicted of spying. Illegal trips such as Beacon School's can be recruitment aids.

Child Sex Tourism in Cuba
http://www.ecpat.org.uk/downloads/Cuba05.pdf

Furthermore, the US Department of State Trafficking Report (2005) states that the Cuban Government, while not condoning underage prostitution, does not act to prevent it. The report notes that child prostitutes may also be victims of trafficking who are exploited by foreign tourists and that those complicit in their sexual exploitation include, “workers at state-run hotels, travel company employees, taxicab drivers, bar and restaurant workers, and law enforcement personnel”.

[raytrace]

Leftist Supporters of Cuba Rewarded with Child Sex Slaves

Cubanology has a post up on how European supporters of the communist nation really spend their time when visiting the workers' paradise. It links to a video that is a bit risque, but starkly shows the exploitation of young Cuban girls by tourists. The video comes courtesy of Abajo Fidel, a great blog to read if you're interested in freedom in Cuba and Latin America. It's hard to watch, but you'll come away understanding why European and American defenders of Cuba are so unseemly, especially the men who go there any chance they get.

Not that I'm implying that Moore, or this high school teacher from the upper west side who took his kids to Cuba (and rumor has it enjoyed the night life while he was there) necessarily purchased children for sex. There are, after all, adult women for sale there as well. But child prostitution in Cuba is a problem that has been noted by human rights investigators before yet still thrives driven by greed and the sex tourism industry.

Don't expect leftists to decry this abuse of human rights though. Abusing women is only wrong if it's done by capitalism.

An editorial is not a source, especially one that, to make its argument, suggests that Michael Moore and his entourage likely paid for sex services in Cuba, and one that uses Rupert Murdoch owned tabloid reports as factual information.

Oh wait, from a UK source. I guess this is owned by Rupert Murdoch, Cheney, and Bush as well. Which happens to be the last link.... guess you made a conclusion before checking all the links.

Child Sex Tourism in Cuba
http://www.ecpat.org.uk/downloads/Cuba05.pdf

Furthermore, the US Department of State Trafficking Report (2005) states that the Cuban Government, while not condoning underage prostitution, does not act to prevent it. The report notes that child prostitutes may also be victims of trafficking who are exploited by foreign tourists and that those complicit in their sexual exploitation include, "workers at state-run hotels, travel company employees, taxicab drivers, bar and restaurant workers, and law enforcement personnel".

Prostitution in Cuba is unlike that in other wealthy nations, as it is not organised, controlled by pimps or a pay-for-sex transaction. Instead, it is often an exchange of sexual favours for food, clothing or other basic needs. However, there are intermediaries, who for a small fee, may translate between the tourist and the woman or may tell the tourist where they can find a prostitute. In relation to underage prostitution young girls find it hard to negotiate with tourists and are 'hyper-exploited', both sexually and financially. One of the reasons for this is because young girls, in particular, are not multi-lingual and therefore unable to negotiate the terms of costs and sexual services with foreigners. Research also shows that girls are made to perform sexual acts that they may have refused had they been able to negotiate. Due to age and inexperience, the girls often wait for tourists to approach them rather than initiating contact themselves. Additionally, older girls may help the younger ones with finding clients and negotiating the price, taking a cut of the fee as payment.

[gaia.plateau]

Oh wait, from a UK source. I guess this is owned by Rupert Murdoch, Cheney, and Bush as well. Which happens to be the last link.... guess you made a conclusion before checking all the links.

In 1976 the Post was bought by Rupert Murdoch for $30 million.

I made a conclusion about the source you quoted based upon reading it.

And now you're contradicting yourself.

Of course, Cuba does have a source of external income (I know this for a fact) in the area of selling sex slaves.

the Cuban Government, while not condoning underage prostitution, does not act to prevent it.

Hey isn't prostitution legal in Nevada?

Because it's illegal in Cuba. Edited February 22, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[raytrace]

And if you really got a hard-on about trying to debunk news sources, give this one a whirl.

Florida professor admits he was a Cuban spy.

Alvarez acknowledged Tuesday he had worked as a Cuban covert intelligence agent on behalf of the Havana government for nearly three decades.

Alvarez said he had gathered and transmitted information about Cuban exile groups to Cuban intelligence agents.

The FBI said Alvarez continued his criminal conduct until June 22, 2005, when he admitted his activities to U.S. counterintelligence agents.

[raytrace]

Oh wait, from a UK source. I guess this is owned by Rupert Murdoch, Cheney, and Bush as well. Which happens to be the last link.... guess you made a conclusion before checking all the links.

In 1976 the Post was bought by Rupert Murdoch for $30 million.

I made a conclusion about the source you quoted based upon reading it.

So..... we gonna dance all night or are you gonna respond to Child Sex Tourism in Cuba

[gaia.plateau]

So..... we gonna dance all night or are you gonna respond to Child Sex Tourism in Cuba

I don't know, are you going to respond to

No I'm not?

I only saw Sicko this year, and I've been studying Cuban education and healthcare for nearly 3 years, but nice try I visited Cuba in the Spring of 2006.

or

I never advocated Castro's political decisions, another connection you seem to have invented, I've only said that "democratizing" Cuba, vis-a-vis another puppet dictatorship like the Batistas, will make life far, far, far far worse for Cubans than it is now. And considering that the US oppressed and exploited Cubans for 40 years through the Batista regime, and that following the revolution they imposed embargoes against food and medical supplies, among other things, can you really blame Fidel for being a little bitter?

or

The rest of the world cannot and will never comprehend the plight of those most affected by Castro's actions back in the early 60's.

Hiroshima survivors?

?

Leaving for work now, have fun.

[oolatec]

Cuba has the best healthcare on the planet? Whoa...

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

Can't wait until that's dismissed as some evil "Bush/Cheney/Murdoch" tri-fecta propaganda!

[raytrace]

Oh wait, from a UK source. I guess this is owned by Rupert Murdoch, Cheney, and Bush as well. Which happens to be the last link.... guess you made a conclusion before checking all the links.

In 1976 the Post was bought by Rupert Murdoch for $30 million.

I made a conclusion about the source you quoted based upon reading it.

And now you're contradicting yourself.

Of course, Cuba does have a source of external income (I know this for a fact) in the area of selling sex slaves.

the Cuban Government, while not condoning underage prostitution, does not act to prevent it.

Hey isn't prostitution legal in Nevada?

Because it's illegal in Cuba.

Ya know, I hate to break your heart but there is a distinct difference between prostitution by choice, especially by an adult, and child prostitution because the Great Fidel Castro is providing for your every need.

I can see you are having a hard time here, but please stick to the topic. Creating logical fallicy by trying to detract from the topic at hand by saying it's legal in Nevada but illegal in Cuba......... I could really care less. As a matter of fact, I could care less if adult prostitution is legalized or not. However, I do care about the fact that child prostitution seems to be going on, even at the knowledge of government officials, in Cuba and Cuba is supposed to be this great place. I just don't buy it.

Now, care to answer about your thoughts on child prostitution in Cuba?

Oh here, I'll make it even simpler for ya so you can follow and possibly even respond.

1. If Cuba is so great with its government controlled social programs, then how is it that prostitution in Cuba isn't necessarily in exchange for money but "Instead, it is often an exchange of sexual favours for food, clothing or other basic needs." I was under the impression that Cuba provided for every basic need of it's citizenry.

2. If the Cuban government cares so much for it's people, then why is it that the Cuban population is Miami is holding a Festival when Castro dies? Especially by Cuban-American officials? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16872448/

3. If Cuba was so great, then how can this be? "It has been observed that there are more black prostitutes than 'mixed' or white in the known sex tourism destinations and that Black Cubans face discrimination on the basis of their race." http://www.ecpat.org.uk/downloads/Cuba05.pdf

and... Based on various pieces of research, evidence shows that children and adults are forced into prostitution in order to support their families.

and... Research has found that "resolving endless shortages in any household has involved gaining access to dollars through one means or another, as hard currency has become increasingly essential in determining one's standard of living and social status".

and... Additionally, renting is illegal so [inner Cuba] migrants may be forced to pay high rents to landlords who illegally rent out their rooms. This can lock migrants into situations of exploitation as they earn money in any way possible to pay for the rent, which may include prostitution. Thus migrant females (girls aged fourteen- and fifteen-years-old) are in a particularly vulnerable position and end up being exploited by both the landlords and sex tourists.

And well.... Finding this causes one to think why you are so adamant about Cuba.... No offense, I could be wrong, it was just a thought.

In July 2003 a fifty-three-year-old Canadian man was sentenced to ten years in prison for the sexual abuse of a thirteen-year-old girl. Another Canadian man was sentenced to twenty-five years in prison for the sexual abuse of a fifteen year old, although he maintains his innocence. Much of the literature points to Canadians as being high on the list of offenders. In research done by O'Connell Davidson et al (1995), out of twenty-four of the men interviewed, twelve were Canadian, two were British Canadian and two Italian Canadian. Another four were British, although two were British Canadian (as above) and one was Swedish British. According to Fernardez, in the late 1990s the majority of tourists came from Italy, Canada, Spain, France and Germany.

[raytrace]

Cuba has the best healthcare on the planet? Whoa...

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

Can't wait until that's dismissed as some evil "Bush/Cheney/Murdoch" tri-fecta propaganda!

Yeah, and Gaia has repeatedly announced that he has been to Cuba several times. As a tourist, walking along the beaches I'm sure.

Yep, Miami beach is one hell of a nice place to be during the summer days. Go in about 20 miles or so to downtown Miami at night might be another story.

[oolatec]

All one has to ask is:

If Cuba is so great, what's with the influx of Cubans each and every year risking their lives on rubber rafts trying to leave?

And Gaia, with all due respect... each and every time you have been to Cuba, I guarantee you only saw what they wanted you to see.

[gaia.plateau]

Yeah, and Gaia has repeatedly announced that he has been to Cuba several times. As a tourist, walking along the beaches I'm sure.

I "announced" it once, that I have been to Cuba once, as you well know (assuming you're literate). But congratulations on another exercise in attempted manipulation. You might recall also that I spent (the majority of) my time in rural villages, not beaches, as you seem to be keeping a tally of my announcements.

And Gaia, with all due respect... each and every time you have been to Cuba, I guarantee you only saw what they wanted you to see.

You guarantee it?

So when I was volunteering, distributing food, toys, and medical supplies amongst dilapated villages, or when I was visiting my friend's fiance, Carlos, at his home amongst downtrodden shacks, many of which lacked roofs... there must have been government agents hiding in the bushes making sure that I didn't see anything unseemly.

What I did notice is that everyone had access to water and electricity, which can't be said for any other country in the global South, the closest would be the famously successful Costa Rica. Not even everyone in Saskatchewan, Canada has access to water and electricity (I've DJ'd on dozens of reservations 7-14 hours north of where I live, and some of the living conditions are appalling... they can go days without access to drinkable water). Edited February 22, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[gaia.plateau]

Oh wait, from a UK source. I guess this is owned by Rupert Murdoch, Cheney, and Bush as well. Which happens to be the last link.... guess you made a conclusion before checking all the links.

In 1976 the Post was bought by Rupert Murdoch for $30 million.

I made a conclusion about the source you quoted based upon reading it.

And now you're contradicting yourself.

Of course, Cuba does have a source of external income (I know this for a fact) in the area of selling sex slaves.

the Cuban Government, while not condoning underage prostitution, does not act to prevent it.

Hey isn't prostitution legal in Nevada?

Because it's illegal in Cuba.

Ya know, I hate to break your heart but there is a distinct difference between prostitution by choice, especially by an adult, and child prostitution because the Great Fidel Castro is providing for your every need.

If you don't think there's child prostitution in other Latin American, democratic countries, and indeed even in the US, Canada and Britain, you need to get reading. I'm not one to defend Castro or any communist political regime, but at least he's made prostitution illegal - that's more than can be said about your country.

I can see you are having a hard time here, but please stick to the topic.

You haven't responded once to a single point I've made on topic, which is the welfare of Cuba after democratization, and yet you ask me to continue posting off-topic in response to your irrelevant, manipulated and misleading misinformation. Sorry, not going to keep doing it.

You know that you have absolutely no ground to stand on in the argument of Cuban living conditions vs the living conditions of other Latin American countries, in the argument of Cuban pluralism (that's another way of saying democracy, if you're slow on the uptake... and it's arguable that there's greater pluralism in Cuba than there is in America, Britain and Canada these days) vs that of other Globally Southern countries, and most importantly in the argument of whether political and/or socioeconomic conditions would improve for Cubans after US "democratization".

You want to stay on topic? During the whole of the Batista reign, Cuba was governed by military death squads, and this still goes on discretely in Guatemala and Nicarauga which are both supported by the West and technically democracies, but are effectively ruled by caudillismo dictators (I've been to both, and spoken with rural villagers about this as well as respected acamdemics). Are Cubans politically free? God no. Are they in a perfect situation? Fuck no. Are they better off than any other population in South America? In my experience and studies, a resounding hell yes.

There are many types of freedom. If you live in a police state, like Nazi Germany, where you could get your door broken down and your chest knifed for speaking out against the government, you are not free. If you have to live every day in fear because you can't afford medical treatment if you get sick or injured, you are not free. If you can't protest against vile military recruitment strategies without getting fined 2 million dollars, you are not free. If you live in a poor Latin American country and have no way of knowing if you're going to have access to drinkable water in the next week, you are not free.

You take away the relatively stable system of socialist socioeconomics and communist political governance, you privatize and deny water, education, healthcare and electricity to the majority of the population, and in less than a decade you are going to see a failed state.

Edit: PS fairly intoxicated writing this, please excuse any spelling/grammar errors. Edited February 22, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[AKammenzind]

If you don't think there's child prostitution in other Latin American, democratic countries, and indeed even in the US, Canada and Britain, you need to get reading. I'm not one to defend Castro or any communist political regime, but at least he's made prostitution illegal - that's more than can be said about your country.

There are many types of freedom. If you live in a police state, like Nazi Germany, where you could get your door broken down and your chest knifed for speaking out against the government, you are not free. If you have to live every day in fear because you can't afford medical treatment if you get sick or injured, you are not free. If you can't protest against vile military recruitment strategies without getting fined 2 million dollars, you are not free. If you live in a poor Latin American country and have no way of knowing if you're going to have access to drinkable water in the next week, you are not free.

Edit: PS fairly intoxicated writing this, please excuse any spelling/grammar errors.

First off, I pretty well agree with a lot of what you said in your post except that which I cut out.

1. Yes, there are all types of prostitution everywhere. If there's a market, there WILL be sellers. However... I don't see why you think prostitution being illegal is a GOOD thing? There is only one reason I can see for it to be illegal, and that is because those in power consider it to be distasteful or morally wrong.

On the other hand, there are a lot of practical reasons why prostitution should be fully legal. Firstly it would allow prostitutes to be protected by the law, instead of hiding from it. It could also be regulated, which would make life for prostitutes safer, and would limit exploitation by pimps, madams, usw. Legalization and minimal regulation could also quite possibly slow the spread of STDs in the same way that the regulation of the food industry helps keep us from having human fingers and contaminated meat in our hamburgers.

Child prostitution is a different story, as children are not adults and as such there are not "two consenting adults" in this situation. However, sex with children is covered by laws other than on prostitution... so child prostitution is no argument whatsoever against the legalization of prostitution in general. But that's an entirely different issue than that which I was addressing




2. Just wanted to add that if you can't decide what is done with your earnings, you're also not free. If you aren't allowed to do what you wish because those in power have decided that it is 'wrong', you are not free.

The big, general one: If the government or some other criminal entity prevents you from living your life as you see fit, regardless of the 'benefits of compliance', and regardless of morality, you still are most definitely not free.

[gaia.plateau]

1. Yes, there are all types of prostitution everywhere. If there's a market, there WILL be sellers. However... I don't see why you think prostitution being illegal is a GOOD thing? There is only one reason I can see for it to be illegal, and that is because those in power consider it to be distasteful or morally wrong.

On the other hand, there are a lot of practical reasons why prostitution should be fully legal. Firstly it would allow prostitutes to be protected by the law, instead of hiding from it. It could also be regulated, which would make life for prostitutes safer, and would limit exploitation by pimps, madams, usw. Legalization and minimal regulation could also quite possibly slow the spread of STDs in the same way that the regulation of the food industry helps keep us from having human fingers and contaminated meat in our hamburgers.

Child prostitution is a different story, as children are not adults and as such there are not "two consenting adults" in this situation. However, sex with children is covered by laws other than on prostitution... so child prostitution is no argument whatsoever against the legalization of prostitution in general. But that's an entirely different issue than that which I was addressing

I didn't express that the illegality of prostitution is a good thing... merely pointing out that the argument that Cuba is a failed country because of lenient sex trade restriction while the US is ultimate in its glory despite legal sex trade in two states, is ridiculous.

You could make the argument that prostitution should be illegal because generally prostitutes do not enjoy their job and are most often forced into it by social and economic circumstances. There isn't much difference from slavery.

That being said, I agree with you that it should be legalized. The most dangerous thing in a prostitute's life isn't the law, but her pimp. Take the illegality out of the equation and the leash goes away. And if you look at it from an economic perspective... they have a product to sell, and there is a market for that product.

Just wanted to add that if you can't decide what is done with your earnings, you're also not free. If you aren't allowed to do what you wish because those in power have decided that it is 'wrong', you are not free.

So in your perception, any government whatsoever fundamentally denies freedom? That's a bit of a quandry then, because without government and rule of law, you aren't free to live without the constant threat of death for your gasoline or what have you

You live in a country that pays high wages, much much higher than other countries in the world. For the enhanced freedom of all, they take some of it from all. You lose a very small freedom, and an anomic and selfish one I will add, to gain a very great freedom.


And wait a minute... if the government regulated prostitution... that would mean more services, and more taxes!!! Oh snap! Can't have legal prostitution and eat it too Edited February 23, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[TheScotsman]

So in your perception, any government whatsoever fundamentally denies freedom? That's a bit of a quandry then, because without government and rule of law, you aren't free to live without the constant threat of death for your gasoline or what have you

Haven't been to E. St Louis, or Detroit, eh?
Threat of death for gasoline? Hell, Gaia, here we call that joining the army!

And wait a minute... if the government regulated prostitution... that would mean more services, and more taxes!!! Oh snap! Can't have legal prostitution and eat it too

BUT if it were legal, what the hell would or purveyors of tele-religion rail against? They would be limited to abortion, and teen promiscuity, you would be taking away 1/3 of their material! The 700 club would be the 466.6 club. Hmmm.... lots of 6's there, I guess that's fitting, they could become their own anti-christ.

[gaia.plateau]

Threat of death for gasoline? Hell, Gaia, here we call that joining the army!

that's the threat of death for brown peoples' gasoline.

I was referring to this sort of scenario.

BUT if it were legal, what the hell would or purveyors of tele-religion rail against? They would be limited to abortion, and teen promiscuity, you would be taking away 1/3 of their material! The 700 club would be the 466.6 club. Hmmm.... lots of 6's there, I guess that's fitting, they could become their own anti-christ.

They'll always find something. They still have the gays, after all.

[Texico]

SWEET FUCKING SHIT IS HTA T MAD MAX?!?!?!?!

RUN FOR THE FUCKING HILLS!!!

i think what the scotsman was trying to say was that pretty much everyone in america agrees taht the police force and such like that are acceptible expeneses by the government. it's other things which people do not want to pay for, such as people paying taxes which go towards universal healthcare (because, believe it or not, the average american (which i have met) does not actually care about the other average americans) or other "socialist" government items.

speaking for myself only, i'm angered that while i was working (i'm a full time college student now and only planning on working during they summers currently) I had to pay for medicare, medicaid, and social security. honestly, i don't want to pay for any of those. that, in my opinion, is the lack of freedom to pay for what you want. i can understand that the underpaid and homeless want us to pay for them, that makes sense. people who are underpriveleged want the priveledged to suffer as they do. I just don't care about these peopple. and I hope you can understand that.

Solution for homelessness and world hunger: feed the homeless to the hungry.

[TheScotsman]

I always figured that if I didn't want anyone with $, cool cars, homes to have the good stuff (wealth) they did have, then I was dooming myself to never have it either. Wealth redistribution is fine if you are getting, and plan to always be such a looser the world needs to float your sorry arse... but if you ever plan on having anything then entitlements are the enemy. If the country is going to go anywhere, then we need to spend the dollars in higher education at a cost people can afford, not in a deluded attempt to turn the losers of the world into a "new middle class" by putting them on the dole.

Or to quote my oldest daughter after she got her first paycheck... "What is this FICA thing, and why am I buying it?"

Who needs housing projects... It's soylent green time! Mmmmm...

[Bulldog_916]

I never hope for anyone to get injured, but if you do, you will finally learn what kind of price is looming over your head every second of your life. When you get slapped with a $50k medical bill for some trivial injury or car accident or some such thing, having to pay that full price for the treatment will help you learn the value of what would be universal health care. If you want to opt out, then opt out, there will be that option available. Quite frankly, its going to be hard to pay off a $50k dollar medical bill working only summers dont you think? I've been working every year of my adult life thus far. Does it pain me to see any amount going anywhere else but my pocket? Of course. But I know that amount serves as a protection, a backstop if you will. Even if it goes to someone else, then so be it. If the money I put into socialized medical care goes to save a life or to treat someone who is less fortunate than I am, then I consider that money well spent. What I DONT consider money well spent is a war that has no end. Levees that arent well made. Money going to technology that pollutes more than it saves. Tax breaks for people who can afford to pay their way. We need to learn how to spend money smarter instead of cracking ourselves in the dome with credit cards, loans that we cant afford, outrageous spending and homes that are way beyond our means. It aint the government screwing us as much as WE are screwing OURSELVES.

[Texico]

And therein lies the fundamental difference between us. You consider your money spent on others as money well spent. I don't. I'm only working summers because I'm a full time student in my first year of college. Yes, I'm only 18 years old, and as such I'm still on my parents health insurance. However, I don't spend excessive amounts of money on anyone, including myself, even now. But I also practiced fiscal responsibility as a high school student, and while I was working in high school I managed to save enough to put the max amount into my Roth IRA each year until I start working again. I agree that others are fucking themselves over, but I don't believe that I am doing so to myself. So, until I've fucked myself over I don't believe that I should pay into a system that I have gives me no currently visible benefit.

And, as I've already said, I have a contempt for my fellow man. I only have the contempt because that is what I have experienced from nearly every person I have ever had contact with. When the world says "fuck you," I say "fuck you" back.

[gaia.plateau]

SWEET FUCKING SHIT IS HTA T MAD MAX?!?!?!?!

RUN FOR THE FUCKING HILLS!!!

It certainly is.

i think what the scotsman was trying to say was that pretty much everyone in america agrees taht the police force and such like that are acceptible expeneses by the government. it's other things which people do not want to pay for, such as people paying taxes which go towards universal healthcare (because, believe it or not, the average american (which i have met) does not actually care about the other average americans) or other "socialist" government items.

speaking for myself only, i'm angered that while i was working (i'm a full time college student now and only planning on working during they summers currently) I had to pay for medicare, medicaid, and social security. honestly, i don't want to pay for any of those. that, in my opinion, is the lack of freedom to pay for what you want. i can understand that the underpaid and homeless want us to pay for them, that makes sense. people who are underpriveleged want the priveledged to suffer as they do. I just don't care about these peopple. and I hope you can understand that.

And that's why you have a democracy. The majority of Americans want to pay taxes for police services, but there are some people who feel that they lose freedom by being forced to. One thing that living in a free country does not mean is the luxury to think of yourself, and only yourself. If you want that, become a wilderman.

If a democratic president is elected in November, it will mean that the majority of your country does care about their fellow Americans, and just like the people who currently don't want to pay taxes for police, you will be forced to like it or lump it.

Solution for homelessness and world hunger: feed the homeless to the hungry.

Simultaneous solution to environmental degradation and global inequality: cars that run on poverty.

I agree that others are fucking themselves over, but I don't believe that I am doing so to myself.

Clearly you were born into a privileged life... the vast majority of Americans are not, and from birth have little to no chance of every getting health insurance. Being born poor does not equate to fucking yourself over.

And, as I've already said, I have a contempt for my fellow man. I only have the contempt because that is what I have experienced from nearly every person I have ever had contact with. When the world says "fuck you," I say "fuck you" back.

I feel bad for you. Edited February 27, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[TheScotsman]

Simultaneous solution to environmental degradation and global inequality: cars that run on poverty.

Are you condoning violence against vagrants?
We will need bigger bumpers!

but I don't see what good tyre tracks across them are going to do to help the situation.