Amtrak Security?!

[HarryTheHookaMaster]

good point.

before you whip out the "America was created..." speech on me, its not all that it seems. America broke away from its overopressive state, but then all the powerful leaders at that time secretly convened, and basically rigged the system to work for them. behind everyones backs. or at least thats what i gathered from history clas while i was awake...

seriously. actually very good point, and i respect that. but it seems to me that we have not yet even come to that line yet. i think right now the intentions of our government are purely good, though its corruption that leads to the problems you presented.
like you said i guess well have to agree to disagree. however thus far, i have yet to see crucial signs to lead me to distrust my government. it will be interesting to see how i feel on this topic in 10 years...

You are right! the powers that be convened and rigged the system to their advantage! ...and the powers that be DO NOT WANT YOU ARMED! AT ALL!!!...it starts with "assult" weapons...then they will work their way to Granddaddys shotgun....

You sound like you learned something in history class. Remember that those who forget history are condemended to repeat it...

..and yes, private companies have the right to protesct their investment (buildings, etc...) I don't... and private security gaurds are NOT trained to the same level as Police Officers-far from it!!!

[Ralleac]

He who trades liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both. That cannot be stressed enough.

/SLAP

Armed guards don't necessarily infringe upon our liberty.

[Balthazar]

The Nazi's talked most of thier citizens to turn in their weapons. They told them that if they wanted a weapon, join the military! I know, its a stretch...but why even step onto the slippery slope!

Godwin's law

[Johnny_D]

Cine... if you do not have anything worthwile to add - don't bother.

That rather stupid 'law' is both pointless and unwelcome. I've edited it from this discussion.

[Balthazar]

Cine... if you do not have anything worthwile to add - don't bother.

That rather stupid 'law' is both pointless and unwelcome. I've edited it from this discussion.

Why is it unwelcome? Please elaborate, what do you find stupid about Godwin's law?

The thing is that 99% of the times people find it tempting to compare something to nazism or communism it is totally not relevant. "Today they won't let us normal folks carry guns - tomorrow they'll probably be slaughtering 6 million jews" Hitler built roads too, and greatly improved the infrastructure of Germany, so I guess building roads is also a "slippery slope", eh? Edited February 20, 2008 by Cinemarxism

[Johnny_D]

Cine... if you do not have anything worthwile to add - don't bother.

That rather stupid 'law' is both pointless and unwelcome. I've edited it from this discussion.

Why is it unwelcome? Please elaborate, what do you find stupid about Godwin's law?

The thing is that 99% of the times people find it tempting to compare something to nazism or communism it is totally not relevant. "Today they won't let us normal folks carry guns - tomorrow they'll probably be slaughtering 6 million jews" Hitler built roads too, and greatly improved the infrastructure of Germany, so I guess building roads is also a "slippery slope", eh?

Because Godwin's 'law' [Who made it a fucking law anyway] is designed to just stop people in there tracks and attempt to subdue the debate. There are a lot of valid parallels with Nazism (not sure that's a word) and if people wish to draw said parallels who are you [Or anyone else] to stop them with some self-styled 'law' ?

Also the use by Harry was probably OK.

JD - Yes godwin's suggestion pisses me off no end.

edit : this has been dragged off-topic enough - if you want to open debate on Godwins suggestion feel free. Edited February 20, 2008 by Johnny_D

[Ralleac]

Many of us normal folks can still carry concealed weapons in the U.S. as that is decided by state law. It is a controversial topic because many citizens not affiliated with the government don't agree with the right to bear arms.

[Oggie505]

and private security gaurds are NOT trained to the same level as Police Officers-far from

Actually some private companies train their security guards to better standards than police forces, Blackwater arms trains private security guards, and they are proally the best trained in the worl. Th US gov even sends some of L.E. people to them to learn new techniques Edited February 20, 2008 by Oggie505

[Balthazar]

Because Godwin's 'law' [Who made it a fucking law anyway] is designed to just stop people in there tracks and attempt to subdue the debate.

The main point of Godwin's law is that misuse of Nazism (yup; it's a word. And from someone who's rocking the mantra: «if you do not have anything worthwile to add - don't bother.» I'm suprised to see this kind of pedantry. I too enjoy my Nakhla Double Apple Standard every now and then, although I sometimes find it a bit harsh) itself is a cheap attemt of underminding the opposition of the debate and «water out» (this one I'm pretty sure is wrong, it's not easy to live in a country where English ain't the main language =/) the term.

If you think it was OK, then I guess we have to agree to disagree. I also agree that there is no need to go any further of the topic.

[AKammenzind]

Many of us normal folks can still carry concealed weapons in the U.S. as that is decided by state law. It is a controversial topic because many citizens not affiliated with the government don't agree with the right to bear arms.

Yes, many people can get concealed carry permits.

The bolded, underlined statement is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if they disagree with our freedom. This is not a democracy, and the majority has no right to infringe upon the rights of the minority which have been given to all of us by our constitution. The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.

Unfortunately our government has gotten into the habit of legislating morality... and in doing such have imposed the morality of the majority upon the minority. They've turned all manner of folkways into mores without any good reason other than 'to protect the populace' (think the war on drugs, prohibition, gun control, the list goes on...). And yet again... He who trades liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both. Both prohibition and the war on drugs increased the amount of illegitimate employment opportunities related to the trafficking of illegal substances. Gun control has disarmed much of the population both via laws, and by changing the law abiding citizen's opinion of gun ownership. It's much easier to rob a house when the owner doesn't have a shotgun, and criminals don't care if guns are illegal... In both cases we traded liberty for security, and in the end we became less secure.

[ZenSilk]

No weapons or anything can be ghetto-ized into a weapon should be on a plane, and they do a great job of keeping those items off. I rather have to fist fight a crazy terrorist than try to disarm him.

But even if the dude did happen to get some nail clippers on board... he's not gonna be able to take out 5 people all coming at him from all angles all at once. Simple logic.

If everyone tries to be a hero then everyone will be a hero. (on a plane atleast).

Beefing up the security on a commuter train is fine, what's wrong with that? The Army was in every security terminal with Automatic weapons right after 9/11 and no one cared. This is just keeping that uptight security up, keeping those murderers off of your train.

Would you want to try to bomb a train with a Guard with a Submachine gun watching your every breath? Probably not. But like i said before, if they are willing to die to kill you, you can't fucking stop them.

[TheScotsman]

No weapons or anything can be ghetto-ized into a weapon should be on a plane, and they do a great job of keeping those items off. I rather have to fist fight a crazy terrorist than try to disarm him.

But even if the dude did happen to get some nail clippers on board... he's not gonna be able to take out 5 people all coming at him from all angles all at once. Simple logic.

If everyone tries to be a hero then everyone will be a hero. (on a plane atleast).

Beefing up the security on a commuter train is fine, what's wrong with that? The Army was in every security terminal with Automatic weapons right after 9/11 and no one cared. This is just keeping that uptight security up, keeping those murderers off of your train.

Would you want to try to bomb a train with a Guard with a Submachine gun watching your every breath? Probably not. But like i said before, if they are willing to die to kill you, you can't fucking stop them.

Invalid for a couple of reasons. Armed (and far better trained) guards fail to stop terrorists in any circumstance where the terrorists are both determined, and organized. When my father was stationed in N. Ireland I lived through terrorists (financed by the USA, thanks you morons, looks like the raven came home to roost!) With some of the elite units guarding every damn corner in town the IRA did everything from point-blank executions, to mortar attacks. I personally saw 2 IRA terrorists take down 2 rovers of the KOSB, and a checkpoint to assassinate a captain. If you think Amtrak's, or blackwater (last I heard they liked shooting up obviously unarmed civilians for no reason) personnel are at nearly the quality of training as the units guarding N. Ireland you are the sheeple you appear to be!

Israel has guard units far better trained than these strutting peacocks, yet terrorists blow the piss out of the place regularly. Chechnya for another example, do you think the Russians are less aggressive at taking down terrorists than our "private" security? Is an armed presence working there?

Again, Tokyo had JDF soldiers guarding subways into the capitol, and government areas... and it failed against less than a dozen fanatics armed with sandwich bags.

Feel safe if you think it's going to help.
enjoy paying for them.
But we all know the USA can't maintain a heavily armed presence anywhere without using it on someone.

Last, but not least... are all the soldiers guarding Iraq putting a stop to terrorists? Hmmmm.... I don't think uniforms help.

[r1v3th3ad]

What's to say something like Air Force One doesn't happen. I don't support weapons on planes, but the security is fucking insane. If I have a flight outta state at 330pm, I have to be at Pittsburgh International by no later than 1230, for security purposes...its bullshit and a waste of my time. Besides the fact that I'm not convinced that it was terrorists in the first place.

[Geiseric]

This is a rare occasion on which I'm going to have to agree with the Scotsman.

[HarryTheHookaMaster]

This is a rare occasion on which I'm going to have to agree with the Scotsman.

I have to agree as well... I must say the Blackwater Security guards ARE THE SHIT! I have personally had my ass covered by these dudes. Smoething about VERY well armed dudes in Hummers (riddled with bullet holes...NO SHIT!) picking you up at the airport in Baghdad... My first thought was "I am NOT in Kansas"

Some security guards are trained at a level slightly higher then retards...you know who I mean. The mouth-breathing mall rent-a-cop?? LOL

anyway...what I really hate in the concealed carry debate is people who have never held a gun telling me that "it will be Dodge City if everyone has guns"...total crap. Some people are so afraid of guns.....

[St. Goodypants]

The bottom line is that if someone is determined and smart, they can and will be able to kill you. No amount of highly trained security guards, gun control, personal firepower, or bomb detectors is going to stop them.

Your security is an illusion so just get on with your life. You should probably be more worried about getting into a car wreck anyway.


It seems to me that giving a private company semi-military authority tends to end badly.

Just an observation. Edited February 21, 2008 by St. Goodypants

[HarryTheHookaMaster]

The bottom line is that if someone is determined and smart, they can and will be able to kill you. No amount of highly trained security guards, gun control, personal firepower, or bomb detectors is going to stop them.

Your security is an illusion so just get on with your life. You should probably be more worried about getting into a car wreck anyway.


It seems to me that giving a private company semi-military authority tends to end badly.

Just an observation.

Agreed.

and I should worry more about getting killed in a car wreck...I drive like a prick!

[Ralleac]

Feel safe if you think it's going to help.
enjoy paying for them.
But we all know the USA can't maintain a heavily armed presence anywhere without using it on someone.

Last, but not least... are all the soldiers guarding Iraq putting a stop to terrorists? Hmmmm.... I don't think uniforms help.

I doubt the armed guards will be using violence on civilians, if that is what you are suggesting. At worst they're an inconvenience. I don't ride Amtrak, but guards have never caused me any trouble in the past, even back after 9/11. I'm not too worried about terrorists, but I'm not worried about the guards, either. Edited February 24, 2008 by Ralleac

[Oggie505]

Well with security there are two types, high-profile which one knows who and where the guards are and low-profile those are the one wearing plain clothes. But I agree if someone want sto do something they can, even airports are not very secure, but there is a big enough presence of security that it deturs most from doing anything.

[Canon]

The bottom line is that if someone is determined and smart, they can and will be able to kill you. No amount of highly trained security guards, gun control, personal firepower, or bomb detectors is going to stop them.

Your security is an illusion so just get on with your life. You should probably be more worried about getting into a car wreck anyway.


It seems to me that giving a private company semi-military authority tends to end badly.

Just an observation.

i have to say this.. what about castro?

[dude3516]

"Blackwater. Shoot! Shoot Again! SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT! Questions are for pussies!"

[TheScotsman]

"Blackwater. Shoot! Shoot Again! SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT! Questions are for pussies!"

Is that those private guards that don't turn their weapons on civilians that a I hear???

[St. Goodypants]

The bottom line is that if someone is determined and smart, they can and will be able to kill you. No amount of highly trained security guards, gun control, personal firepower, or bomb detectors is going to stop them.

Your security is an illusion so just get on with your life. You should probably be more worried about getting into a car wreck anyway.


It seems to me that giving a private company semi-military authority tends to end badly.

Just an observation.

i have to say this.. what about castro?

Be more specific, what about him?

[Canon]

The bottom line is that if someone is determined and smart, they can and will be able to kill you. No amount of highly trained security guards, gun control, personal firepower, or bomb detectors is going to stop them.

Your security is an illusion so just get on with your life. You should probably be more worried about getting into a car wreck anyway.


It seems to me that giving a private company semi-military authority tends to end badly.

Just an observation.

i have to say this.. what about castro?

Be more specific, what about him?

the us gov. tried to assassinate him on many occasions and hes still alive and well.

[HarryTheHookaMaster]

The bottom line is that if someone is determined and smart, they can and will be able to kill you. No amount of highly trained security guards, gun control, personal firepower, or bomb detectors is going to stop them.

Your security is an illusion so just get on with your life. You should probably be more worried about getting into a car wreck anyway.


It seems to me that giving a private company semi-military authority tends to end badly.

Just an observation.

i have to say this.. what about castro?

Be more specific, what about him?

the us gov. tried to assassinate him on many occasions and hes still alive and well.

Thats because, like the rest of our forign policies, we (the USA) fucked that up too!