A Legit Question

[TheScotsman]

it's all an illusion.....but it could be worse.

It is worse. If anyone has any doubts about it, or that country is financially fucked read this.

http://counterpunch.com/whitney03132008.html

It's an illusion... or maybe a poorly written tragic-comedy.

What we are going to get out of all this stupidity is going to be a hot conflict with Iran at this point. Nothing holds off a depression as good as lots of defense spending, right? (read with sarcasm, notice how well it has worked the last year?) Fallon's resignation scares the haggis out of me! That admiral was the one voice of normalcy, He cited opposition to Bush's Iran policy as his reason. He resigned the day the USS Cole left Malta for an unscheduled patrol off Lebanon, Then the Ross arrived with the Guided Missile cruiser-Philippine Sea. Admirals don't bail out over a disagreement about policy, unless... well, since the army has zero reserve, conflict will fall to the Navy/Marines. We don' t have a big need for Aegis boats there, much less the 122 hot-standby tomahawks on the Ticonderoga class unless something is up. When the Tikes carried the UGM109 nuke tomahawk a single boat was the worlds 4th largest nuclear power. Just to make it fun, naval weapons are not fitted with permissive action controls, it does not take a presidential order to fire, only the captain. It looks like we even have Russia looking at us funny over it all.
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080312/101191268.html

Sorry for the thread hijack... I was on a roll, I think old GW is trying to have one last go about in the mid east, and it frightens me that there is so little coverage of it all.

[jayson]

Sorry for the thread hijack... I was on a roll, I think old GW is trying to have one last go about in the mid east, and it frightens me that there is so little coverage of it all.

The true tragedy of it all is that the voices who speak out about attacking Iran in the Republican party are denounced as "liberals", "RINOs" or "traitors/unpatriotic/etc" by mewling news puppets like Bill-O and Sean Hannity.

I'm a Republican and I really don't like what I'm seeing... in fact, it scares the living shit out of me. And whenever I try and bring normalcy back into discussion with Republicans, I get called a whole host of names and disregarded.

[Brownman18]

Its all an illusion, we were fucked from day one anyway, ever since post ww2 politicians stopped serving their true constituents along time ago.


Now its all liberal think tanks, conservative, hell insert politcal party etc that call the shots because they are funded by the big Corp's of this world and the small man can never fight them.


JFK - > Last true patriot, now he's long gone.


Oh and not to thread high jack, but it definately wasn't that idiot navy guy that shot him, his commanders remember him having a shitty shot and well that shot to begin with was impossible unless you were a pro.


it sadly was an inside job/


By who? You'll never probly ever truly know in this lifetime that stuff's well hidden and well this rants over but yea generally speaking, it's Corporate North America now and nothing more.



The bomb's well keep flying, someone has to get hit next, their is no other solution to fixing the economy. It's that simple, all that can be done is prolong the inevitable through fiscal spending by way of army, policing, and jails those are the only true industries that Corporate North America now shines in.



I dunno its just a all around sad state in world affairs.

[TheScotsman]

Its all an illusion, we were fucked from day one anyway, ever since post ww2 politicians stopped serving their true constituents along time ago.


Now its all liberal think tanks, conservative, hell insert politcal party etc that call the shots because they are funded by the big Corp's of this world and the small man can never fight them.


JFK - > Last true patriot, now he's long gone.


Oh and not to thread high jack, but it definately wasn't that idiot navy guy that shot him, his commanders remember him having a shitty shot and well that shot to begin with was impossible unless you were a pro.


it sadly was an inside job/


By who? You'll never probly ever truly know in this lifetime that stuff's well hidden and well this rants over but yea generally speaking, it's Corporate North America now and nothing more.



The bomb's well keep flying, someone has to get hit next, their is no other solution to fixing the economy. It's that simple, all that can be done is prolong the inevitable through fiscal spending by way of army, policing, and jails those are the only true industries that Corporate North America now shines in.



I dunno its just a all around sad state in world affairs.

Now there is another hot button for me. Privatization of jails/prisons, and the # of new laws, cops needed to keep the places full for big gov-erations. Hell, does anyone with a brain actually believe insanely long mandatory sentences have even the mildest deterrent on effect on crime? Rather the opposite is true. Put a fellow in jail for 10 years for some minor stupidity, and once he gets out all support is gone, no family, no job, no home... then people quote high recidivism as the reason we need longer sentences. Makes no sense at all. Look at our prison populations, and compare with any country you can think of.

the people of the USA have been sold off to corporations like a cheap whore.

[jayson]

the people of the USA have been sold off to corporations like a cheap whore.

And we as a people let it happen willingly and happily. We have only ourselves to blame for such stupidity.

[gaia.plateau]

Now there is another hot button for me. Privatization of jails/prisons, and the # of new laws, cops needed to keep the places full for big gov-erations. Hell, does anyone with a brain actually believe insanely long mandatory sentences have even the mildest deterrent on effect on crime? Rather the opposite is true. Put a fellow in jail for 10 years for some minor stupidity, and once he gets out all support is gone, no family, no job, no home... then people quote high recidivism as the reason we need longer sentences. Makes no sense at all. Look at our prison populations, and compare with any country you can think of.

the people of the USA have been sold off to corporations like a cheap whore.

Hmmm... thoughtful... intelligent... coherent... accurate...

What have you done with my Scotsman?

[jayson]

Hmmm... thoughtful... intelligent... coherent... accurate...

What have you done with my Scotsman?

He became an Englishman.

[J-thehookaholic]

Its all an illusion, we were fucked from day one anyway, ever since post ww2 politicians stopped serving their true constituents along time ago.


Now its all liberal think tanks, conservative, hell insert politcal party etc that call the shots because they are funded by the big Corp's of this world and the small man can never fight them.


JFK - > Last true patriot, now he's long gone.


Oh and not to thread high jack, but it definately wasn't that idiot navy guy that shot him, his commanders remember him having a shitty shot and well that shot to begin with was impossible unless you were a pro.


it sadly was an inside job/


By who? You'll never probly ever truly know in this lifetime that stuff's well hidden and well this rants over but yea generally speaking, it's Corporate North America now and nothing more.



The bomb's well keep flying, someone has to get hit next, their is no other solution to fixing the economy. It's that simple, all that can be done is prolong the inevitable through fiscal spending by way of army, policing, and jails those are the only true industries that Corporate North America now shines in.



I dunno its just a all around sad state in world affairs.

JFK was taken out because he didn't want the war in vietnam. There was a coup and people don't even realize. It was the military industrial complex and wealthy bankers. This country is never going to be back in the hands of the people. Especially now with what the Fed is doing, they've essientally nationalized the banks.

[WesleyPipes]

It annoys me that our leaders seem to be chosen because they were bred to be politicians, instead of them being chosen because they are logical decision makers.

Some things I hear make me wonder just how wild the people that thought it was a good idea are.

[J-thehookaholic]

It annoys me that our leaders seem to be chosen because they were bred to be politicians, instead of them being chosen because they are logical decision makers.

Some things I hear make me wonder just how wild the people that thought it was a good idea are.

The problem is that they're chosen to up hold the status quo, why do you think people like Ron Paul recieved like 2 questions at the debate and thus no air time... because people like that make sense and more importantly speak the truth. And honestly... part of me kind of wonders if Obama is the anti-christ... and yes i realize i said I would take him over McCain or Hillary, but the more I think about it the more I wonder......... seeing how the myan calander ends in 4 years I think we missed the chance, it was Ron Paul or Armageddon and so far Armageddon looks like a winner. And honestly I would love to look back at this and say I was nuts and off my rocker as I smoke my hookah in peace. Edited March 20, 2008 by J-thehookaholic

[gaia.plateau]

It annoys me that our leaders seem to be chosen because they were bred to be politicians, instead of them being chosen because they are logical decision makers.

Some things I hear make me wonder just how wild the people that thought it was a good idea are.

The problem is that they're chosen to up hold the status quo, why do you think people like Ron Paul recieved like 2 questions at the debate and thus no air time... because people like that make sense and more importantly speak the truth. And honestly... part of me kind of wonders if Obama is the anti-christ... and yes i realize i said I would take him over McCain or Hillary, but the more I think about it the more I wonder......... seeing how the myan calander ends in 4 years I think we missed the chance, it was Ron Paul or Armageddon and so far Armageddon looks like a winner. And honestly I would love to look back at this and say I was nuts and off my rocker as I smoke my hookah in peace.

You seem to be discarding the very unlikely but real possibility of a President Bush in 2012.

I said it way back in my first year of University, 2004, another terrorist attack this summer, especially one with even arguable ties to Iran, and he's able to declare a state of emergency. Last year he very quietly passed a bill which would absolutely prohibit elections if this happened. I read it on BBC, trying to find the article again but their search system sucks. Here are some unreliable sources for now.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/31/2874/
http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/911/

Although honestly Ron Paul would be more likely to cause nuclear WWIII than ten Bushes. Edited March 20, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[J-thehookaholic]

It annoys me that our leaders seem to be chosen because they were bred to be politicians, instead of them being chosen because they are logical decision makers.

Some things I hear make me wonder just how wild the people that thought it was a good idea are.

The problem is that they're chosen to up hold the status quo, why do you think people like Ron Paul recieved like 2 questions at the debate and thus no air time... because people like that make sense and more importantly speak the truth. And honestly... part of me kind of wonders if Obama is the anti-christ... and yes i realize i said I would take him over McCain or Hillary, but the more I think about it the more I wonder......... seeing how the myan calander ends in 4 years I think we missed the chance, it was Ron Paul or Armageddon and so far Armageddon looks like a winner. And honestly I would love to look back at this and say I was nuts and off my rocker as I smoke my hookah in peace.

You seem to be discarding the very unlikely but real possibility of a President Bush in 2012.

I said it way back in my first year of University, 2004, another terrorist attack this summer, especially one with even arguable ties to Iran, and he's able to declare a state of emergency. Last year he very quietly passed a bill which would absolutely prohibit elections if this happened. I read it on BBC, trying to find the article again but their search system sucks. Here are some unreliable sources for now.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/31/2874/
http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/911/

Although honestly Ron Paul would be more likely to cause nuclear WWIII than ten Bushes.

1) Highly skepitical there would be any one left to vote by the time 2012 elections roll around if the myans are right.
2) Saw those articles awhile ago... scares the shit out of me.
3) Ron Paul is basically the anti-Bush...... so, I don't see it. Advocating a non interventionist policy is far less likely to start WWIII than anything Bush and his cronnies could possibly think up or simply handing everything over to a world government.
4) in case anyone questions my rational for not wanting a world government...... we have enough coruption on every level of every government on the planet.... why add another layer for them to fuck up. Less Government = Less coruption.

[gaia.plateau]

1) Highly skepitical there would be any one left to vote by the time 2012 elections roll around if the myans are right.
2) Saw those articles awhile ago... scares the shit out of me.
3) Ron Paul is basically the anti-Bush...... so, I don't see it. Advocating a non interventionist policy is far less likely to start WWIII than anything Bush and his cronnies could possibly think up or simply handing everything over to a world government.
4) in case anyone questions my rational for not wanting a world government...... we have enough coruption on every level of every government on the planet.... why add another layer for them to fuck up. Less Government = Less coruption.

I meant, like, until 2012, as in from 2000-2012. Also the Mayans never predicted anything... their calendar works on a percentage system and 12/21/2012 is the date when it starts over. The overwhelming majority of Mayans interpret this to mean a global collapse of technology. I've spoken personally with over 100 Mayans on this subject, many of whom didn't even speak Spanish, and I did not find a single person who deviated from this interpretation.

Ron Paul isn't the anti-Bush, he's Bush 2.0, without pretenses to international legitimacy.

[J-thehookaholic]

1) Highly skepitical there would be any one left to vote by the time 2012 elections roll around if the myans are right.
2) Saw those articles awhile ago... scares the shit out of me.
3) Ron Paul is basically the anti-Bush...... so, I don't see it. Advocating a non interventionist policy is far less likely to start WWIII than anything Bush and his cronnies could possibly think up or simply handing everything over to a world government.
4) in case anyone questions my rational for not wanting a world government...... we have enough coruption on every level of every government on the planet.... why add another layer for them to fuck up. Less Government = Less coruption.

I meant, like, until 2012, as in from 2000-2012. Also the Mayans never predicted anything... their calendar works on a percentage system and 12/21/2012 is the date when it starts over. The overwhelming majority of Mayans interpret this to mean a global collapse of technology. I've spoken personally with over 100 Mayans on this subject, many of whom didn't even speak Spanish, and I did not find a single person who deviated from this interpretation.

Ron Paul isn't the anti-Bush, he's Bush 2.0, without pretenses to international legitimacy.

Interesting with the Mayans.
How can you say Ron Paul is Bush 2.0? Have you ever listened to the man or read the speeches he's given in congress for like the past the 20-30 years? Edited March 21, 2008 by J-thehookaholic

[r1v3th3ad]

too bad dr.paul dropped out
+1 to the jfk part I saw posted somewhere

[John Stuart Mill]

The tragedy or beauty of America lies in our cultural mentality. Foremost among our professed beliefs rests the notion of social mobility. It allows the poor to be subjugated without unrest, and the disparity in wealth to grow. In this great country the poor become the willing tools of the rich. They vote to maintain the statuesque, reduce taxes and sabotage programs beneficial to them. Why? Because the American dream is as alluring as the lottery. They hope to one day join the patricians, and reap all the benefits of privilege and wealth. Unfortunately, their chance at social improvement is laughable at best. Perhaps, they should stick with the lottery.

Do we have a democracy? Well, we certainly have a democratic republic. However, it is a liberal democracy dominated by the wealthy elite. Only men with immense resources can effectively run for election and achieve real political power. It remains an effective method of subtle subjugation.

Are there some grandiose conspiracies deciding our fate? Of course not, ultimately men are but men. We are all regardless of position fallible. Our current United States was not forged by a few wishing to control us, but the result of gradual organic change.

As Marx said, “The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.”

[r1v3th3ad]

+1 to Marxism

[J-thehookaholic]

My point is that the founders of this country had a great deal of wisdom in the structure of the government that was laid out in the consitution and the principals this country is supposed to stand for... all of which today is merely paid lip service and has been for the most part discarded. The President is able to circumvent congress with signing statements and executive orders. Congress refuses to accept its responsibility to control the money supply or war powers which were given to the congress specifically so that no one man could decide when, why, how, etc to go to war, conduct war, and end a war. Such things are how tyrranny comes about and liberties get crushed. Since when is it ok to use violated U.N. resolutions as justification to go to war? Since when did it become ok for one man go around congress and the voice of the people? And yet no one cares enough to do anything about. Be glad Washington, Jefferson and the rest are not around, they'd bitch slap us all for allowing what is going on.

And John your wrong on this: "Are there some grandiose conspiracies deciding our fate? Of course not, ultimately men are but men."

Men are greedy, seek to gain power, and keep that power for themselves by whatever means possible.

[John Stuart Mill]

My point is that the founders of this country had a great deal of wisdom in the structure of the government that was laid out in the consitution and the principals this country is supposed to stand for... all of which today is merely paid lip service and has been for the most part discarded. The President is able to circumvent congress with signing statements and executive orders. Congress refuses to accept its responsibility to control the money supply or war powers which were given to the congress specifically so that no one man could decide when, why, how, etc to go to war, conduct war, and end a war. Such things are how tyrranny comes about and liberties get crushed. Since when is it ok to use violated U.N. resolutions as justification to go to war? Since when did it become ok for one man go around congress and the voice of the people? And yet no one cares enough to do anything about. Be glad Washington, Jefferson and the rest are not around, they'd bitch slap us all for allowing what is going on.

And John your wrong on this: "Are there some grandiose conspiracies deciding our fate? Of course not, ultimately men are but men."

Men are greedy, seek to gain power, and keep that power for themselves by whatever means possible.

Men are too incompetent to effectively organize conspiratorial societies. Look at all the information that members of the CSA, NSA and other covert organizations divulge. We make mistakes, and the more complex an organization becomes, the more members and powers it wields, the more likely revealing mistakes are going to be made. Obviously men seek and exercise power, but not through some great veiled apparatus.

Also, the founding fathers really wished to separate from Britton due to impositions on their status. If England hadn’t restricted American merchants do you really believe a revolution would have transpired? They were merchants attempting to establish a pseudo democracy to protect themselves. Originally the senate wasn’t even elected, but rather appointed appointed by the states legislatures (many not democratically chosen). Men like Adams and Hamilton feared a reactionary democratic state. Locke’s “life liberty and the pursuit of property” was altered to “Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Why? Well, many in America didn’t own property, and the landed men and merchants feared populist ferment. Did they honestly believe in the ideals of the enlightenment? Probably, but the realities of their class dictated a less egalitarian approach. All of this was done quite openly, and more out of circumstances than design. Much less then you assume has changed through time. Look at the absurd alien and sedition acts imposed under Adams. Lincoln arrested huge swathes of men after suspending habeas corpus during the civil war. In the early stages of the cold war numerous communists were blacklisted under McCarthy’s direction. It is merely the ebb and flow of time. When the government thinks itself secure your freedoms increase. We have had our gilded ages and foolish wars time and time again.



Marx said, “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.”

As an aside I’m not a Marxist, but have been fascinated with him of late.



Quotes from our founding fathers

Adams

But will you say our Elections are pure? Be it so; upon the whole. But do you recollect in history, a more Corrupt Election than that of Aaron Burr to be President, or that of De Witt Clinton last year. By corruption, here I mean a sacrifice of every national Interest and honour, to private and party Objects.

We are now explicitly agreed, in one important point, vizt. That "there is a natural Aristocracy among men; the grounds of which are Virtue and Talents."



Jefferson

For experience proves that the moral and physical qualities of man, whether good or evil, are transmissible in a certain degree from father to son. But I suspect that the equal rights of men will rise up against this privileged Solomon, and oblige us to continue acquiescence under the {'Amayrosisgeneos aston} ["the degeneration of the race of men"] which Theognis complains of, and to content ourselves with the accidental aristoi produced by the fortuitous concourse of breeders. For I agree with you that there is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents.



Hamilton

I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value.

The voice of the people has been said to be the voice of God; and, however generally this maxim has been quoted and believed, it is not true to fact. The people are turbulent and changing, they seldom judge or determine right.

[J-thehookaholic]

Men are too incompetent to effectively organize conspiratorial societies. Look at all the information that members of the CSA, NSA and other covert organizations divulge. We make mistakes, and the more complex an organization becomes, the more members and powers it wields, the more likely revealing mistakes are going to be made. Obviously men seek and exercise power, but not through some great veiled apparatus.

Really... Ask yourself how hard would it be when like 95% of the media is controlled by 6 companies? How free is the press? How come no one ever went after Bush with the gusto they went after Clinton or Nixon? Lets face it Bush makes Nixon look like a saint, and Nixon got impeached. I digress.... 6 Companies basically run all the media, how hard would it be to distract the mass with bull shit like Britney Spears, American Idol, Big Brother... and no one pays attention to the goverment and whats really going on. Ask yourself why JP Morgan is being back by the Fed in a bid for Bearsterns? Who were the big players creating the Fed? Men like Warburg, JP Morgan, Rockefeller all men of incredible wealth that in early 20th century were getting there balls broken when Teddy Roosevelt sought to break up huge monoplies and clean up government. The biggest fool proof way around this to keep their control and expand it was to control the country's money supply. The Fed was brought into existence in 1913. And our long history of nutrality went to the way side. We got into WWI to "Make the World Safe for Democracy". We funded the Boleshvicks Revolution in Russia. And continually subsidized the Soviets with loans at bellow market interest, just as we are doing with China. We have funded and armed both sides of just about every conflict since WWII, we have troops in 140 countries. "To dismiss terrorism as the result of Muslisms hating us becaue we're rich and free is one of the greatest foreign policy frauds ever perpetrated on the American people. Becasue the propaganda machine, the media, and the government have restated this so many times, the majority now accept it at face value... Do we hear the pundits talk of constitutional restraints on the Congress and the administration? No, all we ever hear are reassurance that the majority supports the president; therefore it must be alright... But what has our answer to the short commings of policies driven by majority opinion manipulated by the powerful elite? we have responded by massively increasing the the federal government's policing activity to hold American citizens check and make sure we are well behaved and pose no threat, while massively expanding our presence around the world. There is no way these moves can make us more secure against terrorism, yet they will accelerate our march toward national bankruptcy with a currency collapse. Relying on authoritarian democracy and domestic and international meddling only move us sharply away from a constitutional republic and rule of law and toward the turbulance of a decaying democracy, about which Madison and others warned about." -Ron Paul Jan. 29, 2003

We have been for the past 60 years and are being kept in a perpetual state of war to slow erode our liberites. We went from being the largest manufacture in the world, to the largest debtor Nation on the face of the planet. You think your taxes go to pay for social security, the military and all that shit? they go to Fed for financing our empire (thats right I said empire), our welfare programs. Whats happening to the dollar? It's been getting shit on, which paves the way for the Amerio.

We don't have democracy when a collection of private banks that make up the Fed control the money supply. Far from it. The fed has stepped way beyond its charter and esseintally nationallized the banks... And no one has said a word. This country cannot afford the cost of both Guns and Butter, we have tried that in past... and the burden was too great. By the time we realized or saw any kind of sign that we were strecthed to thin it was too late. And what Lincoln and FDR did to civil rights is far easier to rationalize, and I want to make very clear that I don't think it was right: With Lincoln the nation was pulling itself apart, the Union was fractured, his plan for the post civil war south shows that things would have returned to normal, as though nothing had happened. FDR b/c we were at war rounded up Japanesse Americans and put them in concentration camps. With Bush and he war against civil liberties and the bill of rights we are all in danger. Some one who loves liberty and the ideals of ths country does not point to the mistakes of the past and use them as justification to take away more freedoms and liberities, no he says: fuck that, its not the road we should go down...... and in case you ask why... look at Germany and the steps taken when Hitler seized power, its that that far off. And everyone says it won't happen, it can't happen, not here... until it finally does happen and its too late. And you know where I'll be if it does? In a fucking concentration camp built by Kellog Brown some where in the midwest b/c I called Shenanigians and b/c no one gave shit enough to realize what was happening b/c they were too busy with frivilous bullshit like Britney spears, American Idol, Big Brother.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney03132008.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03142008.html
http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/911/
http://counterpunch.com/roberts03242008.html
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/31/2874/
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exe...ew.cgi/47/17936


and lets see who takes the time to read a little and comment.......

[John Stuart Mill]

Men are too incompetent to effectively organize conspiratorial societies. Look at all the information that members of the CSA, NSA and other covert organizations divulge. We make mistakes, and the more complex an organization becomes, the more members and powers it wields, the more likely revealing mistakes are going to be made. Obviously men seek and exercise power, but not through some great veiled apparatus.

Really... Ask yourself how hard would it be when like 95% of the media is controlled by 6 companies? How free is the press? How come no one ever went after Bush with the gusto they went after Clinton or Nixon? Lets face it Bush makes Nixon look like a saint, and Nixon got impeached. I digress.... 6 Companies basically run all the media, how hard would it be to distract the mass with bull shit like Britney Spears, American Idol, Big Brother... and no one pays attention to the goverment and whats really going on. Ask yourself why JP Morgan is being back by the Fed in a bid for Bearsterns? Who were the big players creating the Fed? Men like Warburg, JP Morgan, Rockefeller all men of incredible wealth that in early 20th century were getting there balls broken when Teddy Roosevelt sought to break up huge monoplies and clean up government. The biggest fool proof way around this to keep their control and expand it was to control the country's money supply. The Fed was brought into existence in 1913. And our long history of nutrality went to the way side. We got into WWI to "Make the World Safe for Democracy". We funded the Boleshvicks Revolution in Russia. And continually subsidized the Soviets with loans at bellow market interest, just as we are doing with China. We have funded and armed both sides of just about every conflict since WWII, we have troops in 140 countries. "To dismiss terrorism as the result of Muslisms hating us becaue we're rich and free is one of the greatest foreign policy frauds ever perpetrated on the American people. Becasue the propaganda machine, the media, and the government have restated this so many times, the majority now accept it at face value... Do we hear the pundits talk of constitutional restraints on the Congress and the administration? No, all we ever hear are reassurance that the majority supports the president; therefore it must be alright... But what has our answer to the short commings of policies driven by majority opinion manipulated by the powerful elite? we have responded by massively increasing the the federal government's policing activity to hold American citizens check and make sure we are well behaved and pose no threat, while massively expanding our presence around the world. There is no way these moves can make us more secure against terrorism, yet they will accelerate our march toward national bankruptcy with a currency collapse. Relying on authoritarian democracy and domestic and international meddling only move us sharply away from a constitutional republic and rule of law and toward the turbulance of a decaying democracy, about which Madison and others warned about." -Ron Paul Jan. 29, 2003

We have been for the past 60 years and are being kept in a perpetual state of war to slow erode our liberites. We went from being the largest manufacture in the world, to the largest debtor Nation on the face of the planet. You think your taxes go to pay for social security, the military and all that shit? they go to Fed for financing our empire (thats right I said empire), our welfare programs. Whats happening to the dollar? It's been getting shit on, which paves the way for the Amerio.

We don't have democracy when a collection of private banks that make up the Fed control the money supply. Far from it. The fed has stepped way beyond its charter and esseintally nationallized the banks... And no one has said a word. This country cannot afford the cost of both Guns and Butter, we have tried that in past... and the burden was too great. By the time we realized or saw any kind of sign that we were strecthed to thin it was too late. And what Lincoln and FDR did to civil rights is far easier to rationalize, and I want to make very clear that I don't think it was right: With Lincoln the nation was pulling itself apart, the Union was fractured, his plan for the post civil war south shows that things would have returned to normal, as though nothing had happened. FDR b/c we were at war rounded up Japanesse Americans and put them in concentration camps. With Bush and he war against civil liberties and the bill of rights we are all in danger. Some one who loves liberty and the ideals of ths country does not point to the mistakes of the past and use them as justification to take away more freedoms and liberities, no he says: fuck that, its not the road we should go down...... and in case you ask why... look at Germany and the steps taken when Hitler seized power, its that that far off. And everyone says it won't happen, it can't happen, not here... until it finally does happen and its too late. And you know where I'll be if it does? In a fucking concentration camp built by Kellog Brown some where in the midwest b/c I called Shenanigians and b/c no one gave shit enough to realize what was happening b/c they were too busy with frivilous bullshit like Britney spears, American Idol, Big Brother.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney03132008.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03142008.html
http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/911/
http://counterpunch.com/roberts03242008.html
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/31/2874/
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exe...ew.cgi/47/17936


and lets see who takes the time to read a little and comment.......

I wish our government was competent…I truly do. If they could arrange things so expertly I would be content. Content in a delusion, but content none the less. Instead turmoil racks this nation as much as ever. People seem far from sedate in their reactions to our government. Ask yourself if our administration was efficient would we be increasingly in debt to foreign powers. No, we would have expanded our industrial and trade superiority through government measures. Individual short term interests rule the day. A multitude of corporate forces sway government into a disadvantages position. The senator dines and flies in luxury today to relinquish power tomorrow. It is not a conspiracy, but a mentality of immediate gain inherent to our capitalist state. We are selling our future for the present. Why would an intelligent state that wishes to gain power operate in this manner?



Separate comments on some of your statements


The media is dominated by profit not governmental forces. Plus, with the internet any control would be mitigated. The same holds for the entertainment industry.

The fed helped stabilize the market by facilitating the buyout of Stearns. A temporary fix that merely helps delay an inevitable collapse. However, in the immediate the capital infusion allows bears customers to maintain their assets. The defaulting debt from such a large corporation would have been disastrous for the markets. It was not some conspiratorial effort to gain control over the economy.

Sever federal banks existed in the past. This included the national bank established by Hamilton. There is nothing particularly insidious about them. They allow for a certain stability in the banking system. However, current policies have been skewed toward aiding the rich in Wall Street. The Fed and Wall Street's connections are quite clear, again not a conspiracy. They are slaves to immediate profit not some greater conspiratorial organization.

You latter assert the fed makes us less democratic. What? A true democracy can create whatever institutions it pleases. If sanctioned by the people it could create an authority to police our language, which oddly enough the French have. The Fed was created and exists beholden to congress. That makes it as democratically created as anything in this country.

Our involvement in WW1 arose do to a growing number who feared a German victory. It was better for most interests in America to support the British and French. Public outrage over German attacks on shipping coupled with our foreign interests lead us to war.

You're flat wrong about us funding the Bolsheviks. In fact, we aided the white forces along with the rest of Europe. A link to illustrate my assertion. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761584...ssians.html

At least in the short term we generally support a single side. For instance, we unequivocally backed numerous anti-communist leaders, such as Pinochet. There are exceptions to this in cases like the Iran Contra affair, but that illustrates my point of government incompetence. Though we were supporting an avid enemy (Iran) we also were using the arms sales to fund anti-communist rebels. Even in that instance there was some consistency.

We are not in a perpetual state of war. What about the peace in the 90's, and after the Vietnam War until the golf (discounting the joke that was Granada). Vietnam epitomizes the fact that wars don't even always serve as social controls. Look at all unrest that war incited.

By the way Ron Paul shouldn't have mentioned Madison. Madison was a federalist not a foolish libertarian. Plus, a lack of corporate regulations led us to this peril. The hope of immediate profit motivated many of the policies he critiques. Yet Paul believes leaving the invisible hand to operate is wise. Even Adam Smith warned of the evils of corporations. He wished small individually owned businesses would dominate. We'll never know the true application of his ideals do to the advantages of economies of scale.

In terms the democracy Ron Paul certainly isn't a fan. He believes in restricting our actions based on a document written over 200 years ago (constitution). Ron Paul wants controls to limit what has been called the courtier spirit (Tocqueville), the mass man (Ortega), and factionalism (John Adams). These are all terms describing the tendency towards the tyranny of the majority in true democracies. He wants a strictly regulated democratic republic. A democratically elected republic whose powers are bound by the supposed greater wisdom of our founders.

You suggest we are slowly heading to a quasi-fascist state. However, such occurrences do not arise gradually. They are the result of a cataclysmic event. I don't think any democracy has slowly succumbed to a dictatorial state. Let's take a walk through history. The revolution of 1917 came from the disastrous of WW1. Hitler's fascist stat arose from economic turmoil following ww1. Even the emperors of Rome originated from a brutal civil war.

Ultimately, if you want to believe in conspiracies fine, but realize you simply wish to see something greater than yourself. You ascribe these super human attributes to governments and men to fill a hole in your life. Edited March 26, 2008 by John Stuart Mill

[J-thehookaholic]

Men are too incompetent to effectively organize conspiratorial societies. Look at all the information that members of the CSA, NSA and other covert organizations divulge. We make mistakes, and the more complex an organization becomes, the more members and powers it wields, the more likely revealing mistakes are going to be made. Obviously men seek and exercise power, but not through some great veiled apparatus.

Really... Ask yourself how hard would it be when like 95% of the media is controlled by 6 companies? How free is the press? How come no one ever went after Bush with the gusto they went after Clinton or Nixon? Lets face it Bush makes Nixon look like a saint, and Nixon got impeached. I digress.... 6 Companies basically run all the media, how hard would it be to distract the mass with bull shit like Britney Spears, American Idol, Big Brother... and no one pays attention to the goverment and whats really going on. Ask yourself why JP Morgan is being back by the Fed in a bid for Bearsterns? Who were the big players creating the Fed? Men like Warburg, JP Morgan, Rockefeller all men of incredible wealth that in early 20th century were getting there balls broken when Teddy Roosevelt sought to break up huge monoplies and clean up government. The biggest fool proof way around this to keep their control and expand it was to control the country's money supply. The Fed was brought into existence in 1913. And our long history of nutrality went to the way side. We got into WWI to "Make the World Safe for Democracy". We funded the Boleshvicks Revolution in Russia. And continually subsidized the Soviets with loans at bellow market interest, just as we are doing with China. We have funded and armed both sides of just about every conflict since WWII, we have troops in 140 countries. "To dismiss terrorism as the result of Muslisms hating us becaue we're rich and free is one of the greatest foreign policy frauds ever perpetrated on the American people. Becasue the propaganda machine, the media, and the government have restated this so many times, the majority now accept it at face value... Do we hear the pundits talk of constitutional restraints on the Congress and the administration? No, all we ever hear are reassurance that the majority supports the president; therefore it must be alright... But what has our answer to the short commings of policies driven by majority opinion manipulated by the powerful elite? we have responded by massively increasing the the federal government's policing activity to hold American citizens check and make sure we are well behaved and pose no threat, while massively expanding our presence around the world. There is no way these moves can make us more secure against terrorism, yet they will accelerate our march toward national bankruptcy with a currency collapse. Relying on authoritarian democracy and domestic and international meddling only move us sharply away from a constitutional republic and rule of law and toward the turbulance of a decaying democracy, about which Madison and others warned about." -Ron Paul Jan. 29, 2003

We have been for the past 60 years and are being kept in a perpetual state of war to slow erode our liberites. We went from being the largest manufacture in the world, to the largest debtor Nation on the face of the planet. You think your taxes go to pay for social security, the military and all that shit? they go to Fed for financing our empire (thats right I said empire), our welfare programs. Whats happening to the dollar? It's been getting shit on, which paves the way for the Amerio.

We don't have democracy when a collection of private banks that make up the Fed control the money supply. Far from it. The fed has stepped way beyond its charter and esseintally nationallized the banks... And no one has said a word. This country cannot afford the cost of both Guns and Butter, we have tried that in past... and the burden was too great. By the time we realized or saw any kind of sign that we were strecthed to thin it was too late. And what Lincoln and FDR did to civil rights is far easier to rationalize, and I want to make very clear that I don't think it was right: With Lincoln the nation was pulling itself apart, the Union was fractured, his plan for the post civil war south shows that things would have returned to normal, as though nothing had happened. FDR b/c we were at war rounded up Japanesse Americans and put them in concentration camps. With Bush and he war against civil liberties and the bill of rights we are all in danger. Some one who loves liberty and the ideals of ths country does not point to the mistakes of the past and use them as justification to take away more freedoms and liberities, no he says: fuck that, its not the road we should go down...... and in case you ask why... look at Germany and the steps taken when Hitler seized power, its that that far off. And everyone says it won't happen, it can't happen, not here... until it finally does happen and its too late. And you know where I'll be if it does? In a fucking concentration camp built by Kellog Brown some where in the midwest b/c I called Shenanigians and b/c no one gave shit enough to realize what was happening b/c they were too busy with frivilous bullshit like Britney spears, American Idol, Big Brother.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney03132008.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03142008.html
http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/911/
http://counterpunch.com/roberts03242008.html
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/31/2874/
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exe...ew.cgi/47/17936


and lets see who takes the time to read a little and comment.......

I wish our government was competent…I truly do. If they could arrange things so expertly I would be content. Content in a delusion, but content none the less. Instead turmoil racks this nation as much as ever. People seem far from sedate in their reactions to our government. Ask yourself if our administration was efficient would we be increasingly in debt to foreign powers. No, we would have expanded our industrial and trade superiority through government measures. Individual short term interests rule the day. A multitude of corporate forces sway government into a disadvantages position. The senator dines and flies in luxury today to relinquish power tomorrow. It is not a conspiracy, but a mentality of immediate gain inherent to our capitalist state. We are selling our future for the present. Why would an intelligent state that wishes to gain power operate in this manner?



Separate comments on some of your statements



The media is dominated by profit not governmental forces. Plus, with the internet any control would be mitigated. The same holds for the entertainment industry.

The fed helped stabilize the market by facilitating the buyout of Stearns. A temporary fix that merely helps delay an inevitable collapse. However, in the immediate the capital infusion allows bears customers to maintain their assets. The defaulting debt from such a large corporation would have been disastrous for the markets. It was not some conspiratorial effort to gain control over the economy.

Sever federal banks existed in the past. This included the national bank established by Hamilton. There is nothing particularly insidious about them. They allow for a certain stability in the banking system. However, current policies have been skewed toward aiding the rich in Wall Street. The Fed and Wall Street's connections are quite clear, again not a conspiracy. They are slaves to immediate profit not some greater conspiratorial organization.

You latter assert the fed makes us less democratic. What? A true democracy can create whatever institutions it pleases. If sanctioned by the people it could create an authority to police our language, which oddly enough the French have. The Fed was created and exists beholden to congress. That makes it as democratically created as anything in this country.

Our involvement in WW1 arose do to a growing number who feared a German victory. It was better for most interests in America to support the British and French. Public outrage over German attacks on shipping coupled with our foreign interests lead us to war.

You're flat wrong about us funding the Bolsheviks. In fact, we aided the white forces along with the rest of Europe. A link to illustrate my assertion. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761584...e_russians.html

At least in the short term we generally support a single side. For instance, we unequivocally backed numerous anti-communist leaders, such as Pinochet. There are exceptions to this in cases like the Iran Contra affair, but that illustrates my point government incompetence. Though we were supporting an avoid enemy (Iran) we also were using the arms sales to fund the anti-communist rebels. Even in that instance there was some consistency.

We are not in a perpetual state of war. What about the peace in the 90's, and after the Vietnam War until the golf (discounting the joke that was Granada). Vietnam epitomizes the fact that wars don't even always serve as social controls. Look at all unrest that war incited.

By the way Ron Paul shouldn't have mentioned Madison. Madison was a federalist not a foolish libertarian. Plus, a lack of corporate regulations led us to this peril. The hope of immediate profit motivated many of the policies he critiques. Yet Paul believes leaving the invisible hand to operate is wise. Even Adam Smith warned of the evils of corporations. He wished small individually owned businesses would dominate. We'll never know the true application of his ideals do to the advantages of economies of scale.

In terms the democracy Ron Paul certainly isn't a fan. He believes in restricting our actions based on a document written over 200 years ago (constitution). Ron Paul wants controls to limit what has been called the courtier spirit (Tocqueville), the mass man (Ortega), and factionalism (John Adams). These are all terms describing the tendency towards the tyranny of the majority in true democracies. He wants a strictly regulated democratic republic. A democratically elected republic whose powers are bound by the supposed greater wisdom of our founders.

You suggest we are slowly heading to a quasi-fascist state. However, such occurrences do not arise gradually. They are the result of a cataclysmic event. I don't think any democracy has slowly succumbed to a dictatorial state. Let's take a walk through history. The revolution of 1917 came from the disastrous of WW1. Hitler's fascist stat arose from economic turmoil following ww1. Even the emperors of Rome originated from a brutal civil war.

Ultimately, if you want to believe in conspiracies fine, but realize you simply wish to see something greater than yourself. You ascribe these super human attributes to governments and men to fill a hole in your life.

1) The Problem with the Fed:
a) Removal from the gold standard, which means the only thing that is backing the dollar is "faith in government". All that seperates it from the toliet paper I recently wiped my ass with is some green ink, a president's face, and national monument.
The Fed controls the money supply and keeps interest rates artificially low, well below the rate of inflation, which concidentally isn't even calculated right, which is why people on social security, who depend on Cost of living adjustments are fucked and some eat dog food just to get by.
c) By keeping interest rates low it creates speculative bubbles in market. When the bubble burst 2000 and the recession that followed Greenspan recklessly cut interest rates, increasing the money supply, the only way you increase the money is by printing more of it, which in turn led the housing bubble and played a large role, along with the repeal of the glass stegal act, in creating the credit crisis we are now in the midst of. By manipulating interest rates artificially the Fed only serves to exaggerate these cycles and the ill effects of a correction.
d) The Fed is the anti-christ of a a free market. In a free market, the government acts a ref, lays down the rules, makes sure they are followed and does not directly interfer by pump billions of dollars of new printed money into the system mittigate losses. So if I short the market and the Fed decides to step in and dump billions of dollars in, I get fucked, not because of the dictates of the market or where the fundmentals say the market is going but because of outside interferance.
e) Bear Sterns... ARE YOU F*CKING SERIOUS!!! The fed is resposible for trying to manage the money, not step and give mouth to mouth to the dying. They over stepped their charter by leaps and bounds. Again interference in the market.
f) http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03112008.html
g) A collection of private banks (the Fed) given control of a nations money supply is inherently dangerous to democracy, they can literally hold the nation hostage and bring the economy to its knees. So some unelected fruitcake picked from a list given to the president by the Fed is really the most powerful man in the country and arguably the world.
h) "You latter assert the fed makes us less democratic. What? A true democracy can create whatever institutions it pleases. If sanctioned by the people it could create an authority to police our language, which oddly enough the French have. The Fed was created and exists beholden to congress. That makes it as democratically created as anything in this country" ....... The Fed was never "sanctioned by the people". The consitution gave control over money to congress, taking it away would and should require a consitutional amendment. Not a signing statement, not an executive order, and not something simply passed through congress
i) One the largest critics of fiat money Ironically was Alan Greenspan before going to work (or as some might put it selling out) for the Fed.
j) http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2002/tst061002.htm

WWI:
Our involvement was a miscalution by the germans, whose miscalutions started WWI to begin with. As for us fearing germany winning. Why? What threat did that pose to national security of the United States? The war an entire content away, its not like the germans were on our shores blowing up harbours. And yes our ships that were for trade were getting blown up.... buy you know what, its a war zone that shit happens. The Lusitania was carrying weapons, which probably by standards of the current administration would make it a valid target.

Iran Contra:
The CIA dumped cocaine into the United States guy. The war drugs is horse shit, its an excuse for us to meddle in latin america the way meddle and dictate our policies to the middle east, which consequently is why the hate us and why we've been repeatedly attacked.

"We are not in a perpetual state of war. What about the peace in the 90’s, and after the Vietnam War until the golf (discounting the joke that was Granada). Vietnam epitomizes the fact that wars don’t even always serve as social controls. Look at all unrest that war incited. "

I guess the fact that we bombed Iraq just about everyother day between the first gulf war and the second doesn't count, nor the fact that the days in the late 90's that we weren't bombing them we bombing the shit out of the balkans or the sudan. You leave out our involvement in lebanon, Panama, our long standing presence in Korea which still tech, never ended. You leave out our constant involvement and meddling in columbia and latin america.

By the way Ron Paul shouldn’t have mentioned Madison. Madison was a federalist not a foolish libertarian. Plus, a lack of corporate regulations led us to this peril. The hope of immediate profit motivated many of the policies he critiques. Yet Paul believes leaving the invisible hand to operate is wise. Even Adam Smith warned of the evils of corporations. He wished small individually owned businesses would dominate. We’ll never know the true application of his ideals do to the advantages of economies of scale.

You get it wrong. It doesn't matter if you're a federalist, liberal, conservative, libertarian, socialist or communist. That quote was ment to highlight that things are fucked up. He's not laize fair, that suggest government should not be involved, thats inaccurate, He believes that government should not directly interefere in the markets, that government should be a referree, which to me says the fed should not be allowed pump billions of dollars into a market they fucked up in the first place, it doesn't mean an end to regulations. And actually he is a huge fan of democracy. That document thats over 200 years old, laid out exactly what government could and could not do. What good is majority rule if does not respect the rights of the minority.

You suggest we are slowly heading to a quasi-fascist state. However, such occurrences do not arise gradually. They are the result of a cataclysmic event. I don’t think any democracy has slowly succumbed to a dictatorial state. Let’s take a walk through history. The revolution of 1917 came from the disastrous of WW1. Hitler’s fascist stat arose from economic turmoil following ww1. Even the emperors of Rome originated from a brutal civil war.

Actually that economic ruin may be where we're headed. Pray what the fed is doing works. I don't like it, and I don't agree with it, but I'd rather not see economic collapse.

I wish our government was competent…I truly do. If they could arrange things so expertly I would be content. Content in a delusion, but content none the less. Instead turmoil racks this nation as much as ever. People seem far from sedate in their reactions to our government. Ask yourself if our administration was efficient would we be increasingly in debt to foreign powers. No, we would have expanded our industrial and trade superiority through government measures. Individual short term interests rule the day. A multitude of corporate forces sway government into a disadvantages position. The senator dines and flies in luxury today to relinquish power tomorrow. It is not a conspiracy, but a mentality of immediate gain inherent to our capitalist state. We are selling our future for the present. Why would an intelligent state that wishes to gain power operate in this manner?


I wish our government was competent too. Maybe we'd have a dollar that was worth something. Maybe we'd stop being so arrogant to think that we can push democracy with a policy of warmongering. Maybe... just maybe we'd realize just exactly what a bad idea central banking and the fed is. We're increasingly in debt b/c the fed finances our government, and we borrow from other countries for thing we can't afford. If we were so intelligent we would vote everyone out of government, reduce the size of beaucracies, reduce our global commitments, reduce the welfare programs we offer, stop being arrogant enough to think that over throwing democratically elected governments to install dictactors is spreading democracy, the soviets did the same shit and we said it was wrong, we do the same thing and suddenly its ok? I'm not saying the conspiracy theories are right, I'm trying to get people to look and think about shit other than what we've been spoon fed our whole lives, and not to be so quick to dismiss other ideas, scratch a little deeper and see whats there. Sometimes its not about the good intention behind a law, but actually looking at the language and what it says and how it can be perverted. To parapharse Clinton it depends on what your defintion of the word "is" is.

PS. The last time I checked, we were a nation of laws, and the supreme law of the land was the constitution... don't like the restrictions, the checks and balances, the protection of freedoms and liberties either revolt or amend the fucker. Yeah it is over 200 years old, but its been a damn good guide and its served us quite well with a system of checks and balances which was designed against any one branch getting too much power which I believe the excecutive now has too much power. Congress was supposed to be the main organ of our government not the executive office because it was closer to the people. And yes, I'm fully aware that the senate was appointed through the states and not through popular vote. I think signing statements and executive orders are a horrific abombination to the democratic process, they avoid all debate, any vote, any chance for people to have an input, which I believe fits the description of tyrranny or at the very least the possibility of. When executive orders and laws are signed and passed creating detetion centers, the ablity to use the military for domestic purposes and declaring martial law, or that they can't be reviewed by congress for 6 months, it gives me a moment of pause. It makes me wonder WTF is going on? Maybe the freedom we think have is an illusion, while praying its not. I pray to god that there is never a world government b/c my basic assumption works like this: the bigger the gov't, the bigger the corruption and perversion, and lord knows we have enough now on every level (in this country nevermind whats going on in other countries); so adding that global level just seems like a really bad idea. And before you go and trash the consititution, think about the tyranny it was designed to prevent........ unless your into that sort of thing. Its the principles we're supposed to stand for as country, either we stand for them or we don't its not something you simply get to pay lip service to. Being for democracy doesn't give you the right to pre-emptively invade a third world country like Iraq, its wrong on so many levels. Especially the notion of a "just war". My biggest problem is and will always be the hypocracy of our democracy. And wheather you believe the conspiracy theories or not, I think the Federal Reserve, a collection of private banks, as it pertains to this country, is a serious and legitimate threat to the standard of living and democracy of this country. The measurement of inflation and how much money is out there are fuzzy at best, like as fuzzy as Bush's math skills or his recollection of ten years he was drunk and or drugged out on coke (and yes I speak of the happy white trail and not the soft drink). Let me put it this way if Bush decided to turn the control of this nations money supply over to me and a few of my friends, you and the rest of the country would be up in arms. At least with congress we could vote the bastards out.

BTW in case anyone hasn't noticed the whole notion of reality TV and shows like access hollywood digust me, b/c I think people care and pay more attention to that than what is going in government. Really what has more of an effect on you.

PSS. I will get to the Bolschiviks and our supposed funding of them. I also made mention of a certain illegal substance, I know its frowned upon but it was to highlight a point.

[J-thehookaholic]

Men are too incompetent to effectively organize conspiratorial societies. Look at all the information that members of the CSA, NSA and other covert organizations divulge. We make mistakes, and the more complex an organization becomes, the more members and powers it wields, the more likely revealing mistakes are going to be made. Obviously men seek and exercise power, but not through some great veiled apparatus.

Really... Ask yourself how hard would it be when like 95% of the media is controlled by 6 companies? How free is the press? How come no one ever went after Bush with the gusto they went after Clinton or Nixon? Lets face it Bush makes Nixon look like a saint, and Nixon got impeached. I digress.... 6 Companies basically run all the media, how hard would it be to distract the mass with bull shit like Britney Spears, American Idol, Big Brother... and no one pays attention to the goverment and whats really going on. Ask yourself why JP Morgan is being back by the Fed in a bid for Bearsterns? Who were the big players creating the Fed? Men like Warburg, JP Morgan, Rockefeller all men of incredible wealth that in early 20th century were getting there balls broken when Teddy Roosevelt sought to break up huge monoplies and clean up government. The biggest fool proof way around this to keep their control and expand it was to control the country\'s money supply. The Fed was brought into existence in 1913. And our long history of nutrality went to the way side. We got into WWI to \"Make the World Safe for Democracy\". We funded the Boleshvicks Revolution in Russia. And continually subsidized the Soviets with loans at bellow market interest, just as we are doing with China. We have funded and armed both sides of just about every conflict since WWII, we have troops in 140 countries. \"To dismiss terrorism as the result of Muslisms hating us becaue we\'re rich and free is one of the greatest foreign policy frauds ever perpetrated on the American people. Becasue the propaganda machine, the media, and the government have restated this so many times, the majority now accept it at face value... Do we hear the pundits talk of constitutional restraints on the Congress and the administration? No, all we ever hear are reassurance that the majority supports the president; therefore it must be alright... But what has our answer to the short commings of policies driven by majority opinion manipulated by the powerful elite? we have responded by massively increasing the the federal government\'s policing activity to hold American citizens check and make sure we are well behaved and pose no threat, while massively expanding our presence around the world. There is no way these moves can make us more secure against terrorism, yet they will accelerate our march toward national bankruptcy with a currency collapse. Relying on authoritarian democracy and domestic and international meddling only move us sharply away from a constitutional republic and rule of law and toward the turbulance of a decaying democracy, about which Madison and others warned about.\" -Ron Paul Jan. 29, 2003

We have been for the past 60 years and are being kept in a perpetual state of war to slow erode our liberites. We went from being the largest manufacture in the world, to the largest debtor Nation on the face of the planet. You think your taxes go to pay for social security, the military and all that shit? they go to Fed for financing our empire (thats right I said empire), our welfare programs. Whats happening to the dollar? It\'s been getting shit on, which paves the way for the Amerio.

We don\'t have democracy when a collection of private banks that make up the Fed control the money supply. Far from it. The fed has stepped way beyond its charter and esseintally nationallized the banks... And no one has said a word. This country cannot afford the cost of both Guns and Butter, we have tried that in past... and the burden was too great. By the time we realized or saw any kind of sign that we were strecthed to thin it was too late. And what Lincoln and FDR did to civil rights is far easier to rationalize, and I want to make very clear that I don\'t think it was right: With Lincoln the nation was pulling itself apart, the Union was fractured, his plan for the post civil war south shows that things would have returned to normal, as though nothing had happened. FDR b/c we were at war rounded up Japanesse Americans and put them in concentration camps. With Bush and he war against civil liberties and the bill of rights we are all in danger. Some one who loves liberty and the ideals of ths country does not point to the mistakes of the past and use them as justification to take away more freedoms and liberities, no he says: fuck that, its not the road we should go down...... and in case you ask why... look at Germany and the steps taken when Hitler seized power, its that that far off. And everyone says it won\'t happen, it can\'t happen, not here... until it finally does happen and its too late. And you know where I\'ll be if it does? In a fucking concentration camp built by Kellog Brown some where in the midwest b/c I called Shenanigians and b/c no one gave shit enough to realize what was happening b/c they were too busy with frivilous bullshit like Britney spears, American Idol, Big Brother.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney03132008.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03142008.html
http://www.towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/911/
http://counterpunch.com/roberts03242008.html
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/31/2874/
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exe...ew.cgi/47/17936


and lets see who takes the time to read a little and comment.......

I wish our government was competent…I truly do. If they could arrange things so expertly I would be content. Content in a delusion, but content none the less. Instead turmoil racks this nation as much as ever. People seem far from sedate in their reactions to our government. Ask yourself if our administration was efficient would we be increasingly in debt to foreign powers. No, we would have expanded our industrial and trade superiority through government measures. Individual short term interests rule the day. A multitude of corporate forces sway government into a disadvantages position. The senator dines and flies in luxury today to relinquish power tomorrow. It is not a conspiracy, but a mentality of immediate gain inherent to our capitalist state. We are selling our future for the present. Why would an intelligent state that wishes to gain power operate in this manner?



Separate comments on some of your statements



The media is dominated by profit not governmental forces. Plus, with the internet any control would be mitigated. The same holds for the entertainment industry.

The fed helped stabilize the market by facilitating the buyout of Stearns. A temporary fix that merely helps delay an inevitable collapse. However, in the immediate the capital infusion allows bears customers to maintain their assets. The defaulting debt from such a large corporation would have been disastrous for the markets. It was not some conspiratorial effort to gain control over the economy.

Sever federal banks existed in the past. This included the national bank established by Hamilton. There is nothing particularly insidious about them. They allow for a certain stability in the banking system. However, current policies have been skewed toward aiding the rich in Wall Street. The Fed and Wall Street\'s connections are quite clear, again not a conspiracy. They are slaves to immediate profit not some greater conspiratorial organization.

You latter assert the fed makes us less democratic. What? A true democracy can create whatever institutions it pleases. If sanctioned by the people it could create an authority to police our language, which oddly enough the French have. The Fed was created and exists beholden to congress. That makes it as democratically created as anything in this country.

Our involvement in WW1 arose do to a growing number who feared a German victory. It was better for most interests in America to support the British and French. Public outrage over German attacks on shipping coupled with our foreign interests lead us to war.

You\'re flat wrong about us funding the Bolsheviks. In fact, we aided the white forces along with the rest of Europe. A link to illustrate my assertion. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761584...e_russians.html

At least in the short term we generally support a single side. For instance, we unequivocally backed numerous anti-communist leaders, such as Pinochet. There are exceptions to this in cases like the Iran Contra affair, but that illustrates my point government incompetence. Though we were supporting an avoid enemy (Iran) we also were using the arms sales to fund the anti-communist rebels. Even in that instance there was some consistency.

We are not in a perpetual state of war. What about the peace in the 90\'s, and after the Vietnam War until the golf (discounting the joke that was Granada). Vietnam epitomizes the fact that wars don\'t even always serve as social controls. Look at all unrest that war incited.

By the way Ron Paul shouldn\'t have mentioned Madison. Madison was a federalist not a foolish libertarian. Plus, a lack of corporate regulations led us to this peril. The hope of immediate profit motivated many of the policies he critiques. Yet Paul believes leaving the invisible hand to operate is wise. Even Adam Smith warned of the evils of corporations. He wished small individually owned businesses would dominate. We\'ll never know the true application of his ideals do to the advantages of economies of scale.

In terms the democracy Ron Paul certainly isn\'t a fan. He believes in restricting our actions based on a document written over 200 years ago (constitution). Ron Paul wants controls to limit what has been called the courtier spirit (Tocqueville), the mass man (Ortega), and factionalism (John Adams). These are all terms describing the tendency towards the tyranny of the majority in true democracies. He wants a strictly regulated democratic republic. A democratically elected republic whose powers are bound by the supposed greater wisdom of our founders.

You suggest we are slowly heading to a quasi-fascist state. However, such occurrences do not arise gradually. They are the result of a cataclysmic event. I don\'t think any democracy has slowly succumbed to a dictatorial state. Let\'s take a walk through history. The revolution of 1917 came from the disastrous of WW1. Hitler\'s fascist stat arose from economic turmoil following ww1. Even the emperors of Rome originated from a brutal civil war.

Ultimately, if you want to believe in conspiracies fine, but realize you simply wish to see something greater than yourself. You ascribe these super human attributes to governments and men to fill a hole in your life.

1) The Problem with the Fed:
a) Removal from the gold standard, which means the only thing that is backing the dollar is \"faith in government\". All that seperates it from the toliet paper I recently wiped my ass with is some green ink, a president\'s face, and national monument.
(my edit was an attempt to remove the smiley thing over <--- ) The Fed controls the money supply and keeps interest rates artificially low, well below the rate of inflation, which concidentally isn\'t even calculated right, which is why people on social security, who depend on Cost of living adjustments are fucked and some eat dog food just to get by.
c) By keeping interest rates low it creates speculative bubbles in market. When the bubble burst 2000 and the recession that followed Greenspan recklessly cut interest rates, increasing the money supply, the only way you increase the money is by printing more of it, which in turn led the housing bubble and played a large role, along with the repeal of the glass stegal act, in creating the credit crisis we are now in the midst of. By manipulating interest rates artificially the Fed only serves to exaggerate these cycles and the ill effects of a correction.
d) The Fed is the anti-christ of a a free market. In a free market, the government acts a ref, lays down the rules, makes sure they are followed and does not directly interfer by pump billions of dollars of new printed money into the system mittigate losses. So if I short the market and the Fed decides to step in and dump billions of dollars in, I get fucked, not because of the dictates of the market or where the fundmentals say the market is going but because of outside interferance.
e) Bear Sterns... ARE YOU F*CKING SERIOUS!!! The fed is resposible for trying to manage the money, not step and give mouth to mouth to the dying. They over stepped their charter by leaps and bounds. Again interference in the market.
f) http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03112008.html
g) A collection of private banks (the Fed) given control of a nations money supply is inherently dangerous to democracy, they can literally hold the nation hostage and bring the economy to its knees. So some unelected fruitcake picked from a list given to the president by the Fed is really the most powerful man in the country and arguably the world.
h) \"You latter assert the fed makes us less democratic. What? A true democracy can create whatever institutions it pleases. If sanctioned by the people it could create an authority to police our language, which oddly enough the French have. The Fed was created and exists beholden to congress. That makes it as democratically created as anything in this country\" ....... The Fed was never \"sanctioned by the people\". The consitution gave control over money to congress, taking it away would and should require a consitutional amendment. Not a signing statement, not an executive order, and not something simply passed through congress
i) One the largest critics of fiat money Ironically was Alan Greenspan before going to work (or as some might put it selling out) for the Fed.
j) http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2002/tst061002.htm

WWI:
Our involvement was a miscalution by the germans, whose miscalutions started WWI to begin with. As for us fearing germany winning. Why? What threat did that pose to national security of the United States? The war an entire content away, its not like the germans were on our shores blowing up harbours. And yes our ships that were for trade were getting blown up.... buy you know what, its a war zone that shit happens. The Lusitania was carrying weapons, which probably by standards of the current administration would make it a valid target.

Iran Contra:
The CIA may well have dumped cocaine into the United States guy. The war drugs is horse shit, its an excuse for us to meddle in latin america the way meddle and dictate our policies to the middle east, which consequently is why the hate us and why we\'ve been repeatedly attacked.

\"We are not in a perpetual state of war. What about the peace in the 90\'s, and after the Vietnam War until the golf (discounting the joke that was Granada). Vietnam epitomizes the fact that wars don\'t even always serve as social controls. Look at all unrest that war incited. \"

I guess the fact that we bombed Iraq just about everyother day between the first gulf war and the second doesn\'t count, nor the fact that the days in the late 90\'s that we weren\'t bombing them we bombing the shit out of the balkans or the sudan. You leave out our involvement in lebanon, Panama, our long standing presence in Korea which still tech, never ended. You leave out our constant involvement and meddling in columbia and latin america.

By the way Ron Paul shouldn\'t have mentioned Madison. Madison was a federalist not a foolish libertarian. Plus, a lack of corporate regulations led us to this peril. The hope of immediate profit motivated many of the policies he critiques. Yet Paul believes leaving the invisible hand to operate is wise. Even Adam Smith warned of the evils of corporations. He wished small individually owned businesses would dominate. We\'ll never know the true application of his ideals do to the advantages of economies of scale.

You get it wrong. It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a federalist, liberal, conservative, libertarian, socialist or communist. That quote was ment to highlight that things are fucked up. He\'s not laize fair, that suggest government should not be involved, thats inaccurate, He believes that government should not directly interefere in the markets, that government should be a referree, which to me says the fed should not be allowed pump billions of dollars into a market they fucked up in the first place, it doesn\'t mean an end to regulations. And actually he is a huge fan of democracy. That document thats over 200 years old, laid out exactly what government could and could not do. What good is majority rule if does not respect the rights of the minority.

You suggest we are slowly heading to a quasi-fascist state. However, such occurrences do not arise gradually. They are the result of a cataclysmic event. I don\'t think any democracy has slowly succumbed to a dictatorial state. Let\'s take a walk through history. The revolution of 1917 came from the disastrous of WW1. Hitler\'s fascist stat arose from economic turmoil following ww1. Even the emperors of Rome originated from a brutal civil war.

Actually that economic ruin may be where we\'re headed. Pray what the fed is doing works. I don\'t like it, and I don\'t agree with it, but I\'d rather not see economic collapse.

I wish our government was competent…I truly do. If they could arrange things so expertly I would be content. Content in a delusion, but content none the less. Instead turmoil racks this nation as much as ever. People seem far from sedate in their reactions to our government. Ask yourself if our administration was efficient would we be increasingly in debt to foreign powers. No, we would have expanded our industrial and trade superiority through government measures. Individual short term interests rule the day. A multitude of corporate forces sway government into a disadvantages position. The senator dines and flies in luxury today to relinquish power tomorrow. It is not a conspiracy, but a mentality of immediate gain inherent to our capitalist state. We are selling our future for the present. Why would an intelligent state that wishes to gain power operate in this manner?


I wish our government was competent too. Maybe we\'d have a dollar that was worth something. Maybe we\'d stop being so arrogant to think that we can push democracy with a policy of warmongering. Maybe... just maybe we\'d realize just exactly what a bad idea central banking and the fed is. We\'re increasingly in debt b/c the fed finances our government, and we borrow from other countries for thing we can\'t afford. If we were so intelligent we would vote everyone out of government, reduce the size of beaucracies, reduce our global commitments, reduce the welfare programs we offer, stop being arrogant enough to think that over throwing democratically elected governments to install dictactors is spreading democracy, the soviets did the same shit and we said it was wrong, we do the same thing and suddenly its ok? I\'m not saying the conspiracy theories are right, I\'m trying to get people to look and think about shit other than what we\'ve been spoon fed our whole lives, and not to be so quick to dismiss other ideas, scratch a little deeper and see whats there. Sometimes its not about the good intention behind a law, but actually looking at the language and what it says and how it can be perverted. To parapharse Clinton it depends on what your defintion of the word \"is\" is.

PS. The last time I checked, we were a nation of laws, and the supreme law of the land was the constitution... don\'t like the restrictions, the checks and balances, the protection of freedoms and liberties either revolt or amend the fucker. Yeah it is over 200 years old, but its been a damn good guide and its served us quite well with a system of checks and balances which was designed against any one branch getting too much power which I believe the excecutive now has too much power. Congress was supposed to be the main organ of our government not the executive office because it was closer to the people. And yes, I\'m fully aware that the senate was appointed through the states and not through popular vote. I think signing statements and executive orders are a horrific abombination to the democratic process, they avoid all debate, any vote, any chance for people to have an input, which I believe fits the description of tyrranny or at the very least the possibility of. When executive orders and laws are signed and passed creating detetion centers, the ablity to use the military for domestic purposes and declaring martial law, or that they can\'t be reviewed by congress for 6 months, it gives me a moment of pause. It makes me wonder WTF is going on? Maybe the freedom we think have is an illusion, while praying its not. I pray to god that there is never a world government b/c my basic assumption works like this: the bigger the gov\'t, the bigger the corruption and perversion, and lord knows we have enough now on every level (in this country nevermind whats going on in other countries); so adding that global level just seems like a really bad idea. And before you go and trash the consititution, think about the tyranny it was designed to prevent........ unless your into that sort of thing. Its the principles we\'re supposed to stand for as country, either we stand for them or we don\'t its not something you simply get to pay lip service to. Being for democracy doesn\'t give you the right to pre-emptively invade a third world country like Iraq, its wrong on so many levels. Especially the notion of a \"just war\". My biggest problem is and will always be the hypocracy of our democracy. And wheather you believe the conspiracy theories or not, I think the Federal Reserve, a collection of private banks, as it pertains to this country, is a serious and legitimate threat to the standard of living and democracy of this country. The measurement of inflation and how much money is out there are fuzzy at best, like as fuzzy as Bush\'s math skills or his recollection of ten years he was drunk and or drugged out on coke (and yes I speak of the happy white trail and not the soft drink). Let me put it this way if Bush decided to turn the control of this nations money supply over to me and a few of my friends, you and the rest of the country would be up in arms. At least with congress we could vote the bastards out.

BTW in case anyone hasn\'t noticed the whole notion of reality TV and shows like access hollywood digust me, b/c I think people care and pay more attention to that than what is going in government. Really what has more of an effect on you.

PSS. I will get to the Bolschiviks and our supposed funding of them. I also made mention of a certain illegal substance, I know its frowned upon but it was to highlight a point. And while I get to Boschiviks, I\'d like some to comment on this: \"Ask yourself how hard would it be when like 95% of the media is controlled by 6 companies? How free is the press? How come no one ever went after Bush with the gusto they went after Clinton or Nixon? Lets face it Bush makes Nixon look like a saint, and Nixon got impeached. I digress.... 6 Companies basically run all the media, how hard would it be to distract the mass with bull shit like Britney Spears, American Idol, Big Brother... and no one pays attention to the goverment and whats really going on."

Edited March 26, 2008 by J-thehookaholic

[J-thehookaholic]

The way we funded the bolechiviks was by funneling money through the red cross, as a result certain companies on wall st were not siezed and nationalized by the Russians.

[heebo]

Las Vegas slots are more regulated than voting machines.