Hate Of America

[.cOLt.45.]

Ok. To start out this thread I would like to point out that I do NOT support Bush. I would also like to point out I don't support the war in Iraq.

Ok, I was thinking to myself today about how many countries hate America now. I'm in Germany right now and some people act as if Bush is the worst person ever. Many countries are quick to criticize America and talk about how we started a war and how we are so horrible, yet forget to realise that mose countries have had fascists. Italians had Mussolini, Germans had Hitler, Russians has Stalin. When you think about it Bush isn't nearly as bad as most of these people. Why do countries feel the need to criticize America so harshly when they've had their own fascist leaders? Is it a way for them to try and draw attention away from themselves? I just felt the need to say this to someone because it pisses me off how people act like Americans are the worst people ever.

[gaia.plateau]

I personally don't "hate" America or Americans, but as an internationalist I do resent US foreign policy. I can think of a few notions to help you understand the global resentment you're interpreting from abroad.

1) The world isn't angry with Bush, it's angry with US foreign policy over the past 60 years. Yes, you assisted in the defeat of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini, but then you engaged in an economic competition with the USSR and proceeded to trample all over the "third world", much of it democratic, and you propped up fascist dictators in their place. The Bush Doctrine merely represents an acute acceleration of these policies- not their origins. This should answer your question.

2) The regimes of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini were and are now condemned, whereas US illegal military actions have effectively always been condoned internationally. Imagine that your car is broken into by a junkie... the natural course of events would be for you to report it to the police, and they would try to catch him or her. Now imagine that you live in a world of criminals, where it seems like you're the only honest person alive, without anyone to turn to for aid. Which of these two realities seems more difficult? This should answer your question.

3) Hitler and Mussolini took power, Bush was elected. Twice. This should answer your question.

4) We humans of the late post-modern era are chronic amnesiacs... just ask Gore Vidal. Things that happened 60 years ago don't carry the same impact as things that happened 6 days ago. This should answer your question. Edited March 3, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[r1v3th3ad]

^^^ agreed...

on another note, if we are trying to get a tally of nations that hate America/Bush, I am in America and hate America/Bush.

After college and I have a good sum of money saved up(if things don't change for the best), I'm getting the fuck out of here! Canada here I come!

[J-thehookaholic]

gaia is right. They don't like us for our foreign policy and what its become. We meddle in the internal affairs of countries and dictate to the what they should do. How would you feel if the Chinese we over here meddling in our politics and tell us what to do? You'd be a little pissed off too. The ideals the country has held since its inception and our foriegn policy since the early 20th century are two very different things.

[r1v3th3ad]

Instead I'm pissed off that the Chinese is getting away with A. taking all of our business/jobs(even though its our companies letting them do it, primarily by out sourcing to sweatshops) B. getting away with the fucking shit they call a product. Anyone else remember when a pair of shows would last you 4-5 years? I miss those days, now a pair lasts me three months, why? because its sweatshop shit, not even worth the two cents that it took to make it, to wipe my ass... end rampaging rant.
It pisses me off they get away with what they do, but then again, the U.S. gets away with a lot of bullshit too. Face it, the world is becoming so much more advanced and supposedly civilized, but in reality, we are just like the history of humans and empires...its all about personal gain. They will make whatever excuse to justify it. The current systems of the world, IMO, is just evolution of the crap that was going on a millenia ago.

I know this one I'm gonna get some shit for...have fun guys. This shit has just been bothering me too much.

[addicted2shisha]

I'm British and we are just taught to hate the yanks lol

It's definately foreign policy, they tend to meddle in international affairs and fuk up and have no concern for the consequences. A lot of the afghans were trained and supported by Americans inc Osama, and the US also supported Saddam's regime before he invaded Kuwait. Both places are in shambles! US/UK in it together in most things i guess.

[jayson]

1) The world isn't angry with Bush, it's angry with US foreign policy over the past 60 years.

I'm confused. You rightfully resent our foreign policy, but when we finally get a presidential candidate who mentions that our foreign policy sucks, you say that his alternative policy wouldn't work?

So, what is the ideal US foreign policy in a Canadian's eyes?

[gaia.plateau]

1) The world isn't angry with Bush, it's angry with US foreign policy over the past 60 years.

I'm confused. You rightfully resent our foreign policy, but when we finally get a presidential candidate who mentions that our foreign policy sucks, you say that his alternative policy wouldn't work?

So, what is the ideal US foreign policy in a Canadian's eyes?

Are you referring to Ron Paul? Firstly it's a bit of a stretch to call him a candidate... and second, you're talking about the US policy of the last six or seven decades, which is basically "to interfere, intervene, and invade around the world as frequently as possible for economic and geopolitical gain"... compared to Paul's proposed policy of "let's close our eyes, shout LA LA LA LA and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist".

Surprisingly enough, there are happy mediums... like what the rest of the world has been doing all this time

An "ideal foreign policy" for the US would be to try a little foresight... co-operate with other nations instead of dictating to them and invading them... try using diplomacy. We don't want you to be selfless saints, but just stop being suicide bombers. By using a little foresight and common sense, you can avoid destroying the rest of the world and yourselves.

Exemplem gratuitous... arming and training Islamic extremists in the Middle East, including Osama Bin Laden... sending thousands of textbooks to Afghanistan training children from the age of 4 to use violence as the best solution to every problem... and continuing to oppress nearly every person in the nation through the rule of the Taliban... is probably not a recipe for security. This is why the rest of the world shakes its head when we see you building new warships out of 9/11 steel! Or every time we hear the words "freedom fries", for that matter.

It makes me laugh out loud every time, when guys like Tony Snow and Bill O'Reilly bring up the "20/20 Hindsight" defense, as though it is an excuse for having 0/0 foresight. Edited March 3, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[Perrj99]

"Freedom fries" is pretty fucking stupid. They don't even sound appetizing.

[gaia.plateau]

I'm fairly sure that if Thomas Jefferson had been around, he would say that French Fries were renamed to Freedom Fries as a perverse compensation for the increasing suppression of civil liberties at that time (vis-a-vis the Patriot Act, the Military Commission Act, etc.). It's along the same lines as the North American Christian thing... "talk about Jesus a lot, so we don't have to act like him". "Talk about freedom a lot, so we don't notice that it's slipping away."

[Perrj99]

It's a damn shame Jefferson was never able to experience the splendor that is french fries.

[AKammenzind]

I'm fairly sure that if Thomas Jefferson had been around, he would say that French Fries were renamed to Freedom Fries as a perverse compensation for the increasing suppression of civil liberties at that time (vis-a-vis the Patriot Act, the Military Commission Act, etc.). It's along the same lines as the North American Christian thing... "talk about Jesus a lot, so we don't have to act like him". "Talk about freedom a lot, so we don't notice that it's slipping away."

Wow, this is the first time I've agreed with you completely gaia. Pretty well dead on there. One thing I'd add is that they like to talk about freedom, democracy, and christian values a lot not only as a distraction from having the real thing... but as a way to stir up nationalistic feelings.

It works, and that's why I try to stay away from a lot of born-again christians... religion shouldn't be used as a tool to create blind nationalistic fervor, though it all-too-often is.

[TheScotsman]

I'm fairly sure that if Thomas Jefferson had been around, he would say that French Fries were renamed to Freedom Fries as a perverse compensation for the increasing suppression of civil liberties at that time (vis-a-vis the Patriot Act, the Military Commission Act, etc.). It's along the same lines as the North American Christian thing... "talk about Jesus a lot, so we don't have to act like him". "Talk about freedom a lot, so we don't notice that it's slipping away."

Wow, this is the first time I've agreed with you completely gaia. Pretty well dead on there. One thing I'd add is that they like to talk about freedom, democracy, and christian values a lot not only as a distraction from having the real thing... but as a way to stir up nationalistic feelings.

Agreeing with Gaia is a sure sign that you need a drink, a big drink. Maybe an Irish carbomb or 3.



On the other hand, one really has to question the logic of standing in line for the new magical-mystery driver's license, hands full of new documentation... supposedly to prove you are a legal resident/citizen. All the while congress has a verbal pillow fight with the concept of securing the border. Woo-hoo, let's hear it for the patriot act. You know, the only part I can't understand... when does the patriot part come around? Bah, I guess if you wrap it with enough red-white-and blue bunting, then poke a cross on it some jackass will salute it.

Freedom fries, I laughed at that every time I heard it. Americans are so proud to claim to have save the world during ww2... they forget it was the French that saved the colonies from British rule way back in 1776.

What really makes me worry is the possibility of another GW military action starting in the Mid East. With the current Israel/Arab tension getting a whitewash in the press no one has bothered to mention 3 Aegis missile boats have been tasked to Haifa Port. Rare to ever see 2 of them in one place, much less 3. Not a lot of call for AWS/guided missile boats in a port, unless.....

It looks, at least to me, like the USA and Russia are getting ready to start poking each other with Teddy Roosevelt's big sticks again.

[ahwahoo2006]

1) The world isn't angry with Bush, it's angry with US foreign policy over the past 60 years.

They don't like us for our foreign policy and what its become. We meddle in the internal affairs of countries...

Quite right, the US should stop all those pesky foreign aid and humanitarian donations...

Kidding aside... I do not agree with every one of the policies of the United States. At the same time, however, I feel it is very hypocritical for coutries of the world hate the US so much but expect the US to be the first in line with cash and supplies when they get destroyed by an earthquake or hurricane or typhoon or tsunami. Part of the problem certainly is the US interfering when it should not interfere. The other part, that I feel is often conveniently forgotten, is pure jealousy. We have it very good in this country (which many of our citizens often forget), while people in most other parts of the world can only dream of what we have - even most of the poorest people in this country have a house and a car and a television. Look at the people in many pictures of anti-American demonstrations: often they are wearing clothes (e.g. Nike, sports jerseys, blue jeans) espousing exactly what they claim to hate so much. It is pretty much a lose-lose situation for the United States. They are either hated for stepping in to help or hated for not doing anything and it is a very fine line.

[erufiku]

Gaia: the Nazi party was elected. Then Hitler took power. So, the people did give their consent in this case.

[Balthazar]

We have it very good in this country (which many of our citizens often forget), while people in most other parts of the world can only dream of what we have - even most of the poorest people in this country have a house and a car and a television.

Compared to most other Countries of the western world: No, you ("you" as in the vast majority of americans) do not have it that good. Of course "good" is a very diffuse (and certainly arbitrary) word, but I think you get my point.

[gaia.plateau]

Gaia: the Nazi party was elected. Then Hitler took power. So, the people did give their consent in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

They were elected initially, but could not have carried out the actions they are infamous for (invasions of Czech Republic and Poland that sparked WWII, Ghettos/Concentration camps, etc.) without having eliminated political competition and suppressing civil society to a tremendous degree. Recent infamous US actions, however (Iraq war, overthrowing a democratically elected leader in Haiti, bombing the shit out of innocent Kosovo civilians, etc.) have occurred while a reasonable degree of democracy has been in place, which is why they have been largely condoned.

[Bulldog_916]

For the first time I actually agree with Scotsman. The US/Russia tensions are going to escalate soon. The US/China tensions are close to escalating as well. 4 countries in South America including Ecuador and Venezuela are trying to diffuse a possible fight. The Middle East is just barely keeping things from boiling over. China is getting more and more pissed at us for allowing our debt to mount so high, driving the value of that debt lower and lower because it will never really be paid back. They own us. They own the banks that own our financed houses. They own the banks that own our financed cars. Basically, we arent driving "our" cars, we're driving their cars. We are living in their houses. We have to remember that most of this debt was built while the economy was booming, the housing market was fantastic, and oil was considerably less expensive than it is now. If they ask us to pay up, we'll be on the streets, and they can do that, it's called repossession. There will be a war over that, I guarantee it.

Other countries hate ours because we are a nation of excess and we still complain. We try to intervene in battles that arent our business or in our best interest to interject into. We should, instead of forcing our help upon them in disaster, tell them to ask us for help if they need it. This counts in natural disasters, too. Unless the leaders or the governments petition our help, we should stay out of it. If they do ask us to help them (militarily or otherwise), we should take a long hard look at what the consequences might be if we do that. Iraq 1 taught us that, if anything.

[gaia.plateau]

Aaaaw what a great thread, look at it bringing everyone together!

Wow, this is the first time I've agreed with you completely gaia.

Agreeing with Gaia is a sure sign that you need a drink, a big drink. Maybe an Irish carbomb or 3.

On the other hand...

For the first time I actually agree with Scotsman.

Edited March 4, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[r1v3th3ad]

Yes, the nazi party was initially elected, but Hitler was appointed a position of high power, then assumed full power, he was not elected to that position and there was no questioning him of it, or voting against it

[Voski]

you realize that the US was attacked right? Things would be different if 9/11 never happened. I don't want to get attacked again and if you have a problem with bush just sit tight he will be gone soon. And if a democrat wins there should be no resistance getting bills passed through congress.

[erufiku]

Gaia: the Nazi party was elected. Then Hitler took power. So, the people did give their consent in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

They were elected initially, but could not have carried out the actions they are infamous for (invasions of Czech Republic and Poland that sparked WWII, Ghettos/Concentration camps, etc.) without having eliminated political competition and suppressing civil society to a tremendous degree. Recent infamous US actions, however (Iraq war, overthrowing a democratically elected leader in Haiti, bombing the shit out of innocent Kosovo civilians, etc.) have occurred while a reasonable degree of democracy has been in place, which is why they have been largely condoned.

There's just no way of outsmarting you, is there?

[NoPeace]

I also strongly and by strongly i mean like super strongly hate bush. SOOOO MUCH. basically tho the reason they hate american is because they look as it as that we voted for him, whereas ppl need to realize he rigged the elections and by popular majority the majority voted against him. STUPID ELECTORAL COLLEGE. ABOLISH THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE. lol. but also they are to some degree in some fear of the US and to some degree they still are worried a bit about terrorists. However, they feel that the US is the reason for everything and they are pretty much Europes scape goat. They just need to realize that most of us HATE him probably more than they do. My mom was in London 5 years ago on a business meeting and her taxi driver started cussing her out about how she was so rotten for voting for bush and my mom fucking went off on that filthy piece of shit and told him to shut the fuck up cause she hated him more and he needs to stop being such an ignorant fagget.... he shut up. . but yea the Europeans need to realize that it's not our fault, yes there are the people who voted for him of course but they dont understand that with an election there is always the other side of the voters.

Ok. To start out this thread I would like to point out that I do NOT support Bush. I would also like to point out I don't support the war in Iraq.

Ok, I was thinking to myself today about how many countries hate America now. I'm in Germany right now and some people act as if Bush is the worst person ever. Many countries are quick to criticize America and talk about how we started a war and how we are so horrible, yet forget to realise that mose countries have had fascists. Italians had Mussolini, Germans had Hitler, Russians has Stalin. When you think about it Bush isn't nearly as bad as most of these people. Why do countries feel the need to criticize America so harshly when they've had their own fascist leaders? Is it a way for them to try and draw attention away from themselves? I just felt the need to say this to someone because it pisses me off how people act like Americans are the worst people ever.

[r1v3th3ad]

america was attacked alright, by the bush regime...9/11 truth

[gaia.plateau]

There's just no way of outsmarting you, is there?

It involves Jell-O and naked.

I've already revealed too much