Finding a new "low"

[Lakemonster]

Firstly... I still think what the following link falls under free speech.
I personally think theres better ways of protesting a situation than what this person is doing.... but hey... I guess he's got a right to say it.
You gotta have an opinion on this one. My opinion is that if the creator met an untimely demise.... it would not break my heart in the least.
[url="http://www.opposethetroops.com/"]http://www.opposethetroops.com/[/url]

[ahwahoo2006]

Unfortunately our soldiers are fighting and dying to protect the rights
of that miserable excuse of a person to say whatever he pleases. 
I am reminded of a quotation from Voltaire:

"I hate what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it."

[Aggroman]

It's an interesting moral question.

Would you, for example, put blame on Nazi soldiers (let's imagine for a
moment that they are volunteers for the sake of argument) for their
role in the invasion of Czechoslovakia to "liberate" its people and
"protect the freedom" of the German people?

Part of me says no and part of me says yes.  No, because soldiers
are also victims of the stupid/evil policies of their leaders. 
They take part in illegal wars for many reasons, most often because
they are highly nationalistic and truly unaware that their glorious
leader could do any wrong. 

At the same time, do we for this reason absolve them of their
crimes?  No soldiers were hanged at Nurenburg to my knowledge, so
to some extent I think we do.  But should we remain completely
uncritical of their servile obedience to go and murder people at the
behest of tyrants?

I'm not so sure.

[Aggroman]

That said, the trouble I have with this fellows site is that (I may be
mistaken, having not really wanted to read the whole thing...) he
doesn't seem to make a distinction between the role of soldiers in say
WWII where we actually were defending the western world from fascism
and Vietnam (were the U.S. was practicing fascism).

It's an irrational angry knee-jerk reaction to a very rational
concern.  U.S. soldiers are and have done an immense deal of harm
around the world in the name of freedom.  But does this make a
person who signs-up in the sincere belief that he is defending his
country deserving of death?  It's the same as calling for the
death penalty for mentally-handicapped murderer.  He is not
blameless, but he sins in ignorance and does not deserve to die for
this reason.

I think it's equally sad to hear of American soldiers' deaths in Iraq
as it is to hear of Iraqi casualties (insurgent and civillian). 
Every death here is a terrible waste of life. 

This guy's site is equally deserving of criticism as is any site
criticising the insurgents in Iraq... and yet I agree that both are
deserving of their freedom of speech.

[Soup]

I'm all for free speech, but this is rediculous!  People might say that the soldiers are doing what they feel is right when in all actuallity they are just doing what they are told.  I've never been a war supporter but I have never said anything bad against the troops, just the leaders.  The leaders are ultimateley the ones who make the decisions on war.  I found it very arrogant and disrespectful for this individual to use the popular internet phrase "pwned!" on pictures of fallen soldiers.
This may sound cruel, but I hope this guy gets his tounge and hands removed by a ravenous wolverine so he can't spread this sh*t to the masses anymore than he already has.
That being said, I am all for free speech.

[MR Bubble]

[quote name='Soup']This may sound cruel, but I hope this guy gets his tounge and hands removed by a ravenous wolverine so he can't spread this sh*t to the masses anymore than he already has.
That being said, I am all for free speech.[/quote]
I just want to bust him in the cocksucker.
MR Bubble

[Soup]

[quote name='MR Bubble']I just want to bust him in the cocksucker.
MR Bubble[/quote]

[Aggroman]

Leaving aside for a moment that this guy's site is disgraceful in its
celebration of something as awful as the loss of life in war, do you
really think that blame should fall only on leaders?

No question that leaders bear the brunt of the responsibility. 
But the soldiers do not have to follow their orders.  They have
all volunteered to join the army, many of them with full knowledge
their government was at (or soon going to be at) war in an illegal
combat.

The nazi parallel is an easier one to discuss because we're (I hope...)
all in agreement as to the horrible nature of their war. 
Imagining for a moment that these soldiers had the same choices as
Americans do today with regard to joining the military, would you
consider them blameless?

The Nurenburg "just following orders" defense was not enough to keep a
lot of Nazis from being hanged.  Where do we draw the line as to
where blame is to fall?

[Aggroman]

The thing I find interesting here is this:

How is a statement like this:

"My opinion is that if the creator met an untimely demise.... it would not break my heart in the least."

.... any different than the opinions experessed by the guy on the
site.  With full respect, don't you think your views are actually
remarkably similar?

[Aggroman]

Here's an even better modern parallel to think about.

Should we celebrate the death of one of Osama Bin Laden's "soldiers"?

If so, than what makes it morally superior for us to cheer the death of
an Islamic terrorist as opposed to an American terrorist?

[mopower84]

Hey aggroman I feel your modern parallel is somewhat flawed. By that
logic that would mean that U.S. sold1er would have the desire to kill
civ!!ians. I was reading a news story the other about a vet. from the
war in Ir@q who killed himself, he couldn't live with the fact that he
had accedentally killed 2 Ir@qi civi!ians. Do you really think that one
of Os@ma's men or an !nsurgent would be so regretfull of killing 2
@mer!can civilians. That is what makes us morally higher(granted far
from perfect)

Now having said that I will say where I stand on this topic in general.

I am an @mer!can, I am also a /eteran of the Army, I am also Jew1sh.
On the other hand I am very unhappy about where this country and
government is headed. Ir@q will be much better off without S@ddam in
the long run but our !eader lied to us and started an unjust w@r. I
think 9// was an inside job too, but Afgahn@stan is much better off
without the Talib@n, but that is another story all together. We don't
belong in Ir@q, we should get the Ir@qis to take care of themselves,
patch up what we have f@#ked up the best we can, and get our men home
A.S.A.P. I fully support our enlisted men. I am pretty sure none of
them said "oh boy I want to go f!ght an unjust w@r for no good damn
reason for lieing SOB of a le@der" when they signed up. The officers on
the other hand can eat S@#T, choke on it and die for all I care. Pretty
much anyone C@ptan and higher is mostly political anyway. You all can
probably guess how I feel about polatitions.

Now I'm a libertarian and this A$$hat that made the website has the
right to plaster his ignorant bull$hit all over the web. It's the
@merican way and it is what this country is founded on. The day the
go/ernment shuts his site down will be the day we all need to worry.

This @sshat has the right to freely speak his bull$hit.
And I have the right to freely call him an @sshat that is full of S**T.
Granted if I met him I would probably crack his skull open but I don't work for Uncle S@m anymore.
This @sshat also has the right to call the po!ice for me cracking his skull open.
And I have the right to smile all the way down to county jail.

*DISCLAIMER* I was not trying to offend anyone, just speaking my mind.
sorry for the really long post, and the poor spelling, and the poor
grahmer, and for being cryptic(can you tell I just don't trust the
go/ernment anymore)

[Aggroman]

There is no doubt in my mind that there are many American soldiers who
have a conscience and have difficulty with the fact that they are being
used as pawns to murder innocent people.

I also have no doubt in my mind that there are many insurgents who feel the same way. 

Both sides have their share of extremists who place no value on human
life and both sides are willing to sacrifice civillian lives for their
strategic goals.

I happen to know from first-hand conversations with marines stationed
in Kuwait that there are many marines who have no regret whatsoever
over the misery they inflict on civillians.  I was speaking with
one fine fellow who served in Somalia who told me  all the people
there were a bunch of mother#(*@s who deserved what they had coming to
them.  He went further to laugh about how they would put rations
up against the fence at a concentration camp and blow away any N____s
stupid enough to try and get them.

Yes, those are those elevated morals, indeed.

Or perhaps you are referring to the "elevated morals" of the U.S. Army
when they dumped white phosphorus on the population of Fallujah prior
to the seige.

As one American soldier put it:
"I do know that white phosphorus was used... White phosphorus kills indiscriminately."
Here are some of the pictures of the aftermath of that attack (though,
being a Vietnam vet, I'm sure you know what "Willy Pete" does to human
beings...)




Maybe you're referring to the elevated morals of dropping cluster bombs
in Iraq and Afghanistan with full knowledge that women and children
will be maimed along with the "target".  "Collateral damage" I
think is the official term for this "acceptable" result of such actions.

You see, I don't make racist assumptions as to the moral superiority of
one nation over another.  People are people and terrorism is
terrorism, whether it's comitted by an occupying army against. 

No question that an Islamic terrorist who commits an attack with the
knowledge that civillians will be killed is an animal... just as is his
American counterpart.

Should we blindly support the troops on the basis that they were
"following orders"?  I agree that it's a tragedy that many
ignorant young lads have been fooled into going to war for no reason,
but I don't think that completely absolves them of responsiblility for
atrocities like the ones above.

[mopower84]

I just want to say I think the good ones still far outnumber the
bad in my army, but your most recent post just conferms my suspicion
that the american people are not getting the truth about what is really
going on in the world. I'm not saying I agree with you 100%, but point
noted.

[Aggroman]

I agree.  I'm sure there are a lot of decent people in the
American army who sincerely believe that they are "defending their
freedom" or some other such nonsense.  As I said before, I
certainly do not wish any harm to befall them or anyone else.  The
loss of any human life in this pointless conflict is extremely tragic.

I think we agree on more than we disagree.  We need more Americans
like you who are intelligent enough to scrutinze what so many sadly
accept on blind "patriotic" faith.

[Aggroman]

Just a quick question that sort of gets to the heart of my point. 

I would never directly compare the Americans or any other regime in
history to one so horrible as the Nazis, but think it's useful to
consider a parallel in this case.

What would your opinion of a german soldier, tragically mislead into
voluntarily taking up arms in the invasion of continental Europe in the
sincere belief that he is doing the right thing? 

Should we cast no blame upon this individual for his choice, however naive and misguided he is?

My opinion is that we do hold him at least partially accountable, but
it's a difficult question.  And if I hold the Nazi soldier to
account for his crimes, do I then hold someone who was drafted in the
Vietnam war accountable as well?

I'm really not sure where I draw my own line on this one... it's a very tricky moral quesiton.

Being a veteran yourself of the latter war, I'm curious as to your thoughts.

[mopower84]

Well that is a tough one. as a man of jewish heritage I'm sure you can
guess my opinion of nazi's in general. But there is alot to consider
with many variables as to the actions of the individual soldier. There
were plenty of young german men that joined the army simply because
they had no option, join and be a patriot or be labled a trator and
executed. We are free to speak out against the war and we don't really
have to worry about being rounded up by the SS. Was the soldier working
in the camps or on the front line? I think if the soldier had no chose
in joining the army and was nothing more then say and infantymen or a
tank gunner let the poor bastard go. But if he signed up and said "let
me operate the gas chamber" then he has some hell to pay, only a man
with evil in his heart could do that. The placement of blame would
probably need an entire trial for every enemy soldier, hell they would
still be sorting them out today.

[mopower84]

Oh, BTW Aggroman, just wanted to clear this up, I was a peacetime vet. Nam was before my time.