Children's Behaviour

[Bulldog_916]

Wow, I'm with kornkitten on this one. You put it the best way I've heard. I think I'm in between "real man" and momma's boy. I love my mom and generally identify with her. But I very much respect my father. He pretty much raised the outdoorsman in me. My mom raised the respect for women in me. I'm nothing like the guys I see out there that treat women like toys to be used for the night and then discarded just as quickly. That doesnt stand with me. Both parents raised me to be the man I am today and I am very proud of who I am. Society needs a reality check.

I still stand by my closet punishment and will eventually keep a closet clean just for this purpose.

[gaia.plateau]

This is why I say there is something wrong with society.Are you saying that you don't think children worry about what we as their parents, will think? Or how we will act? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? There is something WRONG there.

There is a difference between seeking someone's approval and fearing them.

A child CONSTANTLY seeks approval of their parents EVERYBODY who has a child, or was a child knows this.

I feel genuinely sorry for anyone with this experience... I was raised to pursue what I felt was right, and what was right for me, not what my parents would think is right. Being raised as an automoton replica of your parents is no way to live.

If you are telling me you do not care, then you sir, are the one with issues that need to be resolved, because maybe you don't love your parents enough.. You are telling me that when you were a child you did whatever you wanted? You never thought about what your momma or daddy would say or do to you if they found out!* That right there folks is 100% the reason why society is 100% completely fucked up becase kids no longer think they have to answer to anyone for their actions and that is sickning..*

When I was a child I did what I felt was right, which was a product of how I'd been raised. That meant helping people when I could, putting others before myself, standing up to those that raised themselves up by putting others down. So no, I didn't think about what momma or daddy would say or do, I did what came natural to me, which is what they taught me to do, and is a far greater gesture of love to them than your prescription of obedience.

Again you're trying to make it an issue of black and white. Dualism only hides your intelligence and highlights your ignorance. To quote Obi Wan Kenobi, "only a Sith deals in absolutes" (not a geek I swear).

I'm sorry, but like JD says, up until 50 years ago, the family and home life were better than ever. Crime was lower, and families actually acted like families. Parents were accountable for there kids actions, and if you did something wrong, not only would your parents spank you but your neighbors and your teachers!!! It wasn't until our government started interfering with our children and how we raised them did we start having severe issues.

50 years ago we didn't have an environmental crisis. 50 years ago we didn't swear as much. OMG, SWEARING IS MELTING TEH ICE CAPS!!!

Two coinciding tendencies are by no means necessarily causational. Maybe if the trend of physically abusing children hadn't declined in the last 50 years, things would be a hell of a lot worse now.

Is it a burly redneck that beats his wife and children when they won't shut up (my money is on this one)?

(If you think this is what makes a man , then you and this nation/ world are in a sad state of affairs. You are also closed minded, and don't read.)

Read that again, I said that my money was on that as your pick of the four possibilities I posted.

This is what a man is to me. ******************** In my own words**********

Real men- have declined in this world. The reason I say this, Is i look at my dad. I think my dad is a real man.

He loves his country, fought to protect it. Fended for his family with a ferocity that every man should take care of his family and the people he loves. He protected us. He cared for us. He was firm with his children but had a side that we could melt like butter. He loves my mom with a love that I rarely see anymore.

He didn't stay inside all day and play video games. He hunted, he fished, he taught his boys how to protect their sisters, and all the manors they would need one day to find a loving and caring wife. He Showed them how to be a gentleman. Pull out chairs, open doors, just chivalray (sp) That is also a rarity these days. Taught them how to work with their hands, use tools, work on cars, and do well in school. Have a job, a career and how to be "proud". The ability to know the right from wrong and be able to make a informed decision weither that ideal is wrong or right, but done for the right reason.

The boys grew into men. They now follow in his foot steps. They don't let little whiney things bother them. They don't bitch and moan and complain like these other "boys" do. They don't act the ass and pretend to be bad asses just to run their mouth. They only use force when needed.

I don't know. Maybe I have this whole misconception what a "real man is" versus a "momma's boy". I don't want a momma's boy. Give me a man any day

Not a lot of hunters these days, you should check around the Yukon maybe? I guess that most of the dudes I run into these days fit more into the "momma's boy" category, but I can think of maybe a dozen of my friends that would incontestably fit into the "real man" category. So that's like a ratio of 40:1 momma's boys to real men, which is about the same ratio as skanks to real women. At least it's fair.

You admitted you have been tazed at least once? How many times have you been in trouble with the law? *************** Maybe you should have been spanked more?

Thrice, once I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and didn't even do anything, once I was drunk out of my mind and didn't even realize what was going on, I just wasn't following instructions and sort of wobbling, and once a cop was beating on my friend with a stick for telling him off, and I ran over to him, telling him to stop. Like I mentioned, that last time I arguably deserved it, and that's when I got it in the back of the neck.

You also don't listen to what I type but I will spell it out for you in complete detail. So you will not be confused. You are not smacking your kid around. You are not beating them to a pulp or humiliating them in public. You give several warnings before you spank a child. It is always a last resort. If the child's behavior does not yield, you promptly take them into a private area, the bathroom whatever, and you tell them why they are being spanked. You never yell at the child while you are spanking him or her. And you don't keep spanking a child you pop them once or twice and it's done. and only on the butt. When it is all over you ask them if they understood why they were spanked. They then tell you why, if not you tell them again. You ask them if they are ready to behave they will say yes, and you walk back out.

If you have your child's respect to begin with, it should never get to that point. I guess for some people it's the only option, but that doesn't make it the right one.

Whatever. I hope when you have a kid, and I have a kid, we can have an experiment. I will raise my child to the best of my ability and 30 years down the road we will see who has done the better parenting job.

You're on. bear in mind that I won't be having children until I'm at least 40, so that I have the experience and wisdom to do the very best job I can. So like, see you in about 50 years? (Assuming we haven't died by then from ecological collapse, nuclear annihilation, climate change, or something else). If your kid is a junkie and mine has a masters' degree you owe me a coke. Edited April 2, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[Prince_BlackAdder]

Ignore Alpha. His posting has been severally curtailed. No Further comment needed. Thanks. Continue.
[---------------------------------------]
Gaia,
As ever I'm not exactly sure what your driving at apart to public ally pull someone's opinion to pieces.

KornK is giving an honest account of what she feels is wrong, and for the most part I agree with her.

The problem here is that lots of people have an opinion. However I would suggest that you wait until your faced with your own teenage offspring. I didn't know shit about parenting until I became one.

Sad but true.

(gaia.plateau @ Apr 2 2008, 08:04 AM) *
You're on. bear in mind that I won't be having children until I'm at least 40, so that I have the experience and wisdom to do it properly. So like, see you in about 50 years? (Assuming we haven't died by then from ecological collapse, nuclear annihilation, climate change, or something else). If your kid is a junkie and mine has a masters' degree you owe me a coke.

I take some very serious offence at that [Highlighted]

I had my first daughter at the age of 20, granted unplanned, But I'll tell you something for nothing - age has fuck all todo with experience and/or wisdom.

My brother is 10 years old than me with a kid of the same age - he's doing a great job of screwing her up nicely.

I am rather offended at your statement - Even though I realise it was neither aimed at me, or intended to offend.

Better ?

[kornkitten42]

Again, I don't know how they raise kids up there, maybe they are robots? What kid does not seek their parents approval? Also, I'm sorry but i think we are talking about two different types of "kids" I am talking about elementry school kids. I mean come on. It is in HUMAN nature to seek approval. All kids seek it. Weither you want to admit it or not. They do. And seeking approval is not meaning you are a replica of your parents. Only when you become a teen do you want to rebel and say "screw what my parents think" and try to branch out your own wings. Even then secretly you still worry about what your parents will say or think. If you don't then you probably need to get some help becauseyou are pretty damn selfish.

For example :When you are ready, If you decide to get married, don't you want your parents approval of your future spouse? Not saying if you don't get it you won't marry, but you don't care what they will think? You won't even ask? You wouldn't care?

When I was a child I did what I felt was right, which was a product of how I'd been raised. That meant helping people when I could, putting others before myself, standing up to those that raised themselves up by putting others down. So no, I didn't think about what momma or daddy would say or do, I did what came natural to me, which is what they taught me to do, and is a far greater gesture of love to them than your prescription of obedience.

In elementry school, I was worried if I stole something, my parents would be upset. In middle school I was worried if I got caught cursing, or smoking my parents would be mad. I was worried in highschool if I came home drunk, my parents would be dissapointed. Again, if I got pregnant same thing now!
Just Like I'm worried if I do drugs I'll get arrested. If I Steal a car, i'm going to jail. If I drink and drive, I could kill someone. The thing that is different here is I am worried about the concequences of my actions and the HIGHER power than myself, that I will have to answer to for what I did. I RESPECT authority, and I respect the people in charge.

Kids today don't give a rats ass about authority. Like you, they only answer to themselves, and that is where I believe society has failed us. You are smarter than the average bear gaia. I give you credit for that. But the rest of society is not like you. They are there for the then and now and only for themselves.

Again you're trying to make it an issue of black and white. Dualism only hides your intelligence and highlights your ignorance. To quote Obi Wan Kenobi, "only a Sith deals in absolutes" (not a geek I swear).

Gaia, how are you not doing the same thing??? You are stating in general that spanking is abuse and is bad. I'm stating that it should be used as a tool, and as last resort. How am I being a dualist and you are not? When you want to paint black / white , plain as say
" it is abuse" and it's not different than if you were to punch your wife in the face?

Kids today have a problem with authority. You say you did these things. Yes maybe when you were OLDER. The problem with youth and authority issues usually happens at a young age. I highly doubt you were doing what your heart said and what felt right when you were in 1st grade.


50 years ago we didn't have an environmental crisis. 50 years ago we didn't swear as much. OMG, SWEARING IS MELTING TEH ICE CAPS!!!

Two coinciding tendencies are by no means necessarily causational. Maybe if the trend of physically abusing children hadn't declined in the last 50 years, things would be a hell of a lot worse now.

um. There would still be respect.

Is it a burly redneck that beats his wife and children when they won't shut up (my money is on this one)?

(If you think this is what makes a man , then you and this nation/ world are in a sad state of affairs. You are also closed minded, and don't read.)[/quote]
Read that again, I said that my money was on that as your pick of the four possibilities I posted.[b] * And like I said you don't read. I never ever once advocated to beat your wife. I never once advocated to hit your child for speaking. You sir, try to slam your points home while negating the fact that you have completely taken everything i've said out of context and try to shove words in my mouth.

Not a lot of hunters these days, you should check around the Yukon maybe? I guess that most of the dudes I run into these days fit more into the "momma's boy" category, but I can think of maybe a dozen of my friends that would incontestably fit into the "real man" category. So that's like a ratio of 40:1 momma's boys to real men, which is about the same ratio as skanks to real women. At least it's fair.

As for the skanks, hell I agree. Women are not like they used to be either. Women have no shame. They think they are big bad and awesome and want to assume the mans role. "I can do anything a man can do" ( bo bo beeb bo boooo -pablo fransico look it up) BULLSHIT. Don't get me started on the decline of women as well. I like working as a TEAM Thats another thing that is wrong with society. . Also in general- Women are too bitchy, too moody, and over all too slutty. How quick is it that a guy wants to get a girl out of her clothes and the girl lets him.

As for the decline in manly actions. Yes I know hunting has gone down, I know fishing isn't that popular among teenage boys. WHY? That's the issue. EVERY US state has reported a decline in outdoor activies. Hunting, fishing, camping are at an all time low! That is awful! The men of this country are getting sucked inside. Who will teach our children how to hunt, fish, camp, i mean hell, soon we won't even have boyscouts.....


Thrice, once I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and didn't even do anything, once I was drunk out of my mind and didn't even realize what was going on, I just wasn't following instructions and sort of wobbling, and once a cop was beating on my friend with a stick for telling him off, and I ran over to him, telling him to stop. Like I mentioned, that last time I arguably deserved it, and that's when I got it in the back of the neck.
[b]
I highly doubt you were tazed for no reason. 2nd -You were drunk- seems like a valid reason if you were out of your mind. 3rd time, at least you admit you were wrong.


If you have your child's respect to begin with, it should never get to that point. I guess for some people it's the only option, but that doesn't make it the right one.

How will you have a childs respect at age 2? Age 3? When they are into everything, possibly things that can kill them? Please tell me how you sit a 2 year old down and tell them rationally like an adult they could die if they put something toxic into their mouths? Please tell me how you would raise your 2 year old if you had one.



You're on. bear in mind that I won't be having children until I'm at least 40, so that I have the experience and wisdom to do it properly. So like, see you in about 50 years? (Assuming we haven't died by then from ecological collapse, nuclear annihilation, climate change, or something else). If your kid is a junkie and mine has a masters' degree you owe me a coke.


Well if you aren't going to have a child until you are 40 , You mnight just want to rethink having one then. You would be more like to risk you future child to have some kind of physical or mental deformity if you wait that long. Especially if your wife is 40. That alone is bad parenting from the start man. But seriously. Your kid will be 20, and you'll be 61. My fiance who is 23, just lost his father in July (Don't know why I put may, weird.....???) and he was 60. Don't do that to your kid. He should have had many more years with him.

Ps. you're on about the coke. but by then a coke will be at least 20.00, so to stiffle the cost of inflation, how about you just buy me one now? Edited April 2, 2008 by kornkitten42

[kornkitten42]

oh wow... what the heck happened while I was posting?

*Side note, I am at work, so it's taking me 4x as long to make a reply because I keep getting interupted.* sorry guys!

And I don't have kids either. So I am just going by my own feelings as well.

I mean it's a heavy debate between me and Gaia, but We're not choking each others lights out in the thunderdome yet So it's all good so far.

[gaia.plateau]

You're on. bear in mind that I won't be having children until I'm at least 40, so that I have the experience and wisdom to do the very best job I can. So like, see you in about 50 years? (Assuming we haven't died by then from ecological collapse, nuclear annihilation, climate change, or something else). If your kid is a junkie and mine has a masters' degree you owe me a coke.

I take some very serious offence at that [Highlighted]

I had my first daughter at the age of 20, granted unplanned, But I'll tell you something for nothing - age has fuck all todo with experience and/or wisdom.

My brother is 10 years old than me with a kid of the same age - he's doing a great job of screwing her up nicely.

I am rather offended at your statement - Even though I realise it was neither aimed at me, or intended to offend.

JD

Fair enough, either I mispoke or you misunderstood, more likely the former. I didn't mean that what was proper for me was proper for everyone, I apologize for offending you.

Like I just said 3 lines earlier, it was meant for my situation. I'm going to be traveling in my work frequently at least until I'm 40, no environment to raise a child in. I also want to have enough funds to be able to retire, at least for 6-7 years, and give my child an education involving trips to indigenous villages, deep sea diving, etc. etc. As I originally said, I also want to have the life experience and wisdom to do the very best job possible.

[gaia.plateau]

Kitten: sick as a dog and about to go to bed to wake up and write a 5 page 400-level paper due tomorrow at 6pm... I'll respond to your last post tomorrow night

The coke is in the mail.

[Prince_BlackAdder]

You know what...

I've seen kids raised on baked beans toast in a council flat in a sink estate, but with parents who done there very best and nothing else. And those kids has disciple and principles and turned out to be good people. Very good people actually.

You can take kids to all the villages and deep sea diving and other fancy stuff... But Raise them without principles and discipline and your wasting your money.

KornKitten's analogy earlier about Private school is right on the money.

Discipline my man! Disipline!

JD

[kornkitten42]

Gaia- See you tomorrow, night man.



edited to adddddd********

I'll be waiting with baited breath on that coke It will be flat by the time it gets here. and warm. eew.

( and good luck with your paper) Edited April 2, 2008 by kornkitten42

[ganesha]

I've been sleeping on this issue... I'm by no means a perfect parent (just wanted to throw that out there) afterall, kids don't come with a manual. I also think that this subject goes right up there with politics and religion... People are passionate about this. There's no one right way to be a parent. I have friends that don't spank their kids. They use other methods, and their kids are doing great. I have others that use the same philosophy and they are raising a disrespectful little hellion. I also have friends that spank their children and they are growing up as little hellions as well. I spanked my kids when they were younger and even if I do say so myself, they are turning out pretty damn good.

• If you fear your parents, father or mother, you by necessity believe that they do not love you unconditionally. That's a perverse relationship. Kids shouldn't fear their parents.

I don't think Kornkitten fears her parents.... I'll be honest, I messaged her after the comment "We also don't have any real men in this world anymore." She wrote back a great response that I happen to agree with. After reading her other posts here I think what she is saying is that she Respects her parents. What she is describing is not fearing them. I'm sure she'll set me straight if I am assuming wrong.
Something that keeps coming up in this thread that bothers me is people keep saying you shouldn't beat your kids... I agree but there is a huge difference in beating a kid and spanking a kid.
My kids are a older now, my youngest as I said before is 7. When they were younger the most effective way for them to know they shouldn't do something was a quick swat to their bottom.
Example: (This scenario actually happened with all 3 of my kids at some point.)
My wife was cooking and turned away for a second. My child (somewhere around 2 or 3 maybe) decided that she wanted to "help" cook. So she took it upon her self to go to touch the very hot pan. Luckily I caught her before she got burnt. I said in a stern voice, "No!!! Don't touch that you'll get hurt." (or something on those lines.) She looked at melike I was crazy and went right back to what she was doing. I moved her away from the stove, and continued what I was doing. I saw a little movement out of the corner of my eye and she was right back at it. I then swatted (is that a word or should it be swat??) her on her bottom. Guess what??? She stayed away from the stove because she knew she shouldn't be there... Maybe she was afraid of me at that time, but I honestly don't care... I'd rather her fear me and not get hurt then not fear me and get hurt.
Now that they're older I don't spank them. I have found other ways to discipline, because they are old enough to understand what I am saying to them. My son for example, if he does something wrong and I say, "We're not going to camping this weekend now" or "Son, I can't believe you would do that..do you know how sad that makes me??" He is sufficiently punished... He punishes himself because it hurts him that he upset me. That's not fear, that's love and respect. Are my kids perfect all the time?? No. Do they get in trouble??? Yes. It's part of being a kid. But they know without a doubt that they are loved 100%.
I for one hope my kids turn out like kornkitten... a person that loves and respects her parents, is good in society, and will no doubt in my mind be a great parent... I'm not saying that people with different views won't be great parents...
Anyway, that's just my opinion

Edited to bold - Now that they're older I don't spank them. Edited April 2, 2008 by ganesha

[kornkitten42]

Ganesha- What you are saying is correct. I respect my parents. I think i mentioned that in one of my posts, but if i didn't I'm sorry- working and trying to debate is kind of tedious when you can concentrate fully on what you are trying to get out.

Yes, I respect my parents HIGHLY. When I was saying "fear", I ment it in away that your mom is the ally, the dad is the "punisher". This of the "christmas story". He feared his father becoming upset with him for breaking his glasses when he got into the fight. His mom, the ally, helped him in this situation. I should have said, FEAR THE CONCEQUENCES, instead of fearing the parents. I wasn't afraid of my father. I feared the punishment that was forth coming. Does that make sense?

I guess that is the best way I can think to put it as I am STILL awake

EDITED TO ADD- This of the "christmas story". THIS SHOULD READ- think of the christmas story. Edited April 2, 2008 by kornkitten42

[Johnny_D]

Quiet Ganesha..

Spanking has a limited usefull time-span. I would say from 2 to 7ish. After that it's usefullness is gone and becomes self defeating.
But the point is - it does have a use.

jD

[kornkitten42]

JD- he is saying that he doesn't spank them anymore, there are other ways now that they are older and understand what he is saying. They can understand that their actions will have concequences. as in not being able to camp, or the ever so charming, i'm so dissapointed in you. That one was one of my favorites. That always made me feel like crap, because they were dissapointed and hurt by my actions.

[ganesha]

Edited since JD had a typo and once it was cleared up my post was meaningless...

Edited April 2, 2008 by ganesha

[Johnny_D]

I meant Quite. Not quiet.

[Snoopy1966]

My children are 18, 15 and 14. It is all in the parents on how they learn to act. My kids are very well behaved and very polite. I only had to spank them a couple times in their life. Remember, they do as they see while growing up.

The tazer IMO was justified in this situation from the related thread, but it is scary.

[gaia.plateau]

You know what...

I've seen kids raised on baked beans toast in a council flat in a sink estate, but with parents who done there very best and nothing else. And those kids has disciple and principles and turned out to be good people. Very good people actually.

You can take kids to all the villages and deep sea diving and other fancy stuff... But Raise them without principles and discipline and your wasting your money.

KornKitten's analogy earlier about Private school is right on the money.

Discipline my man! Disipline!

JD

You don't think that taking a child to live in a place with no electricity, water, or roof, teaches discipline?

You can physically discipline a child, there may be some value in that, and I'm sure it builds a certain degree of character. It's a rational backup plan. Teaching self-discipline is infinitely better, by planting the seeds of responsibility and respect very early on, and letting them learn and decide things on their own. It builds a lot more character than mere discipline.

We're the only animal in the world that uses physical violence on our young as a form of discipline... does that not seem perverse to you?

[gaia.plateau]

Again, I don't know how they raise kids up there, maybe they are robots? What kid does not seek their parents approval? Also, I'm sorry but i think we are talking about two different types of "kids" I am talking about elementry school kids. I mean come on. It is in HUMAN nature to seek approval. All kids seek it. Weither you want to admit it or not. They do. And seeking approval is not meaning you are a replica of your parents. Only when you become a teen do you want to rebel and say "screw what my parents think" and try to branch out your own wings. Even then secretly you still worry about what your parents will say or think. If you don't then you probably need to get some help becauseyou are pretty damn selfish.

No, I've only every been talking about elementary school kids, age 5-12 or whatever.

Not worrying about what your parents think is only selfish if they've done a bad job raising you. If you act and think justly and selflessly, you don't need to worry about what your parents think. Developing individual conscience overrides the need. Just as a religious person can love god even if they aren't constantly worrying about what god might think of them.

For example :When you are ready, If you decide to get married, don't you want your parents approval of your future spouse? Not saying if you don't get it you won't marry, but you don't care what they will think? You won't even ask? You wouldn't care?

Because I know that my folks love me, and because I know that I was brought up to value things like integrity, honesty, and respect, I know that anyone I decided to marry would necessarily have the favour of the people who raised me. It's an unspoken understanding, and it's stood the tests of time and experience.

That, in my opinion, is the very definition of having a truly strong relationship with one's parents.

When I was a child I did what I felt was right, which was a product of how I'd been raised. That meant helping people when I could, putting others before myself, standing up to those that raised themselves up by putting others down. So no, I didn't think about what momma or daddy would say or do, I did what came natural to me, which is what they taught me to do, and is a far greater gesture of love to them than your prescription of obedience.

In elementry school, I was worried if I stole something, my parents would be upset. In middle school I was worried if I got caught cursing, or smoking my parents would be mad. I was worried in highschool if I came home drunk, my parents would be dissapointed. Again, if I got pregnant same thing now!
Just Like I'm worried if I do drugs I'll get arrested. If I Steal a car, i'm going to jail. If I drink and drive, I could kill someone. The thing that is different here is I am worried about the concequences of my actions and the HIGHER power than myself, that I will have to answer to for what I did. I RESPECT authority, and I respect the people in charge.

Well, we were raised under different values systems. Drinking and cursing were A-OK in my family, as long as moderation and discretion were exercised. My old man tried to teach me to respect authority, but both my parents and especially my mother taught me to respect what is right. So what I learned was to not respect authority just because it's the authority. If a policeman tells me to stand on one leg and sing I'm a little teapot, I'm going to tell him to fuck right off. If my government tells me that we're in Afganistan to maintain peace and nation build, when I know that we're there for geopolitical and economic purposes, I'm similarly going to tell them to fuck right off.

Kids today don't give a rats ass about authority. Like you, they only answer to themselves, and that is where I believe society has failed us. You are smarter than the average bear gaia. I give you credit for that. But the rest of society is not like you. They are there for the then and now and only for themselves.

I never answered to myself, I answered to my integrity and principles, the only things in this world I know for certain I would die for.

I think that JSM made the best point regarding this, it's a systemic issue. We're living in a dying world, like a blade of grass cut and laying on the soil, slowly decomposing. Religious extremists are leading countries in every continent (well, 5 of them), I'll wager that less than 10% of all humans really know their own culture or their history, international relations are a mess, the nuclear arms race is heating up again, this time among 7+ countries, climate change approaches, our ecological systems in general are on the verge of collapse, over 70% of the world lives in poverty, the richest country in the world isn't even in the top 50 for education or healthcare, people everywhere are getting slower, fatter, dumber, and more complacent, viruses are propogating rampantly...

...so of course society is crumbling.

Gaia, how are you not doing the same thing??? You are stating in general that spanking is abuse and is bad. I'm stating that it should be used as a tool, and as last resort. How am I being a dualist and you are not? When you want to paint black / white , plain as say
" it is abuse" and it's not different than if you were to punch your wife in the face?

You're saying that you can either fear your parents, or you don't love or respect them. There is a gray area, there is a middle ground. Denying the middle path is dualism. It isn't dualistic to take a stand against corporal punishment, it's objective and rational. We can't decry violence in our society when we're propagating it in our homes.

Kids today have a problem with authority. You say you did these things. Yes maybe when you were OLDER. The problem with youth and authority issues usually happens at a young age. I highly doubt you were doing what your heart said and what felt right when you were in 1st grade.

Doubt all you like, in the third grade someone I barely knew in my elementary school was getting their oranges stolen from two older kids in an adjacent school (it was... orange day? we bought boxes of mandarin oranges at school around x-mas time for some charity thing... they were good.), I told them they couldn't do it, to give the oranges back and go home. I put up a half-decent fight, but I got beat up pretty badly. The kid I was helping, Cody, pretty much just stood there with his thumb up his ass, but a teacher or the principal, can't recall which, came out during the fight and stopped it, and I got in huge trouble for fighting and sent home. Cody told them about it at school and I got an apology from the principle, and my parents were damn proud of me. I've got dozens and dozens of stories like these, but this is the earliest and most prominent in my mind.

50 years ago we didn't have an environmental crisis. 50 years ago we didn't swear as much. OMG, SWEARING IS MELTING TEH ICE CAPS!!!

Two coinciding tendencies are by no means necessarily causational. Maybe if the trend of physically abusing children hadn't declined in the last 50 years, things would be a hell of a lot worse now.

um. There would still be respect.

How can you know that? I argue that there would be even less respect. Edited April 2, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[gaia.plateau]

As for the skanks, hell I agree. Women are not like they used to be either. Women have no shame. They think they are big bad and awesome and want to assume the mans role. "I can do anything a man can do" ( bo bo beeb bo boooo -pablo fransico look it up) BULLSHIT. Don't get me started on the decline of women as well. I like working as a TEAM Thats another thing that is wrong with society. . Also in general- Women are too bitchy, too moody, and over all too slutty. How quick is it that a guy wants to get a girl out of her clothes and the girl lets him.

Haha, girl lets him? I don't know about the US, but half or at least a third of the time it's the womens tearing off our clothes. Shit, I'm a pretty burly guy, and I've been raped three times (okay once was by my girlfriend but I was unconscious, I think it still counts).

I have no problem with the women's lib movement, but both my girlfriend and I think that radical feminism is pretty much insane bullshit.

As for the decline in manly actions. Yes I know hunting has gone down, I know fishing isn't that popular among teenage boys. WHY? That's the issue. EVERY US state has reported a decline in outdoor activies. Hunting, fishing, camping are at an all time low! That is awful! The men of this country are getting sucked inside. Who will teach our children how to hunt, fish, camp, i mean hell, soon we won't even have boyscouts.....

I don't know how it is in the US today, but my friends and I go camping at least once a month (when it's warmish), and I'm talking pop-tents, a hatchet, a couple of knives, a pot, a few sticks and maybe a rifle, in the middle of nowhere (usually around Last Mountain Lake, you can usually find it on a map). I go hunting maybe once a year with my uncle and old man, sometimes bows and arrows, sometimes rifles, we make slurry from the brain and turn hides into clothes, blankets, etc. and use every bit of meat. A lot of my friends are big hippies but I have quite a few that do the same, and we fish all the time, it's a great way to smoke hookah and pound a few bottles of rum.

I highly doubt you were tazed for no reason. 2nd -You were drunk- seems like a valid reason if you were out of your mind. 3rd time, at least you admit you were wrong.

I was at a party that was getting broken up, consuming alcohol above the legal age, which is 19 here, and running for a place to hide so I didn't get arrested for some bullshit reason like contributing to the delinquency of a minor. That is not a reason for a cop to independently decide to electrocute someone, and if you think it is, you're insane. Regarding the second time, I am an extremely gentle and passive drunk, I -know- I wasn't being threatening. I barely remember it but yeah, even if I was charging the cops, you do not need to electrocute a drunk guy to bring him down. They probably could have thrown a thick magazine at me and I would have been down for the count. Regarding the third time, I don't admit I was wrong, they were using unnecessary force against my idiotic drunk friend and I still think I did the right thing by trying to talk the cop down.

We now live in a society that has been so pumped up by fear of everything from terrorists to sting rays, that our public security officers have come to very much resemble Tweek of South Park fame.



They're reasonably rational about using their guns, but clearly the temptation to break out their taser is just too much for them to handle. Fortunately for us Canucks, in Canada they're about to be banned altogether.

How will you have a childs respect at age 2? Age 3? When they are into everything, possibly things that can kill them? Please tell me how you sit a 2 year old down and tell them rationally like an adult they could die if they put something toxic into their mouths? Please tell me how you would raise your 2 year old if you had one.

Once they put something toxic into their mouth, and they have to get their stomach pumped (that shit is painful, trust me it will be a deterrent) they won't do it again!

Mostly just kidding. I guess firstly it's probably not good parenting to leave toxic shit around a 2 year old. It really isn't that hard to baby-proof a house. Secondly sure, I'll tell you how. You sit them down, and tell them rationally like an adult. They're not going to understand you or comprehend you, but what will develop in their little brains, somewhere way below the surface, is that talking and reasoning is the way that you solve problems. That's what makes a strong man, a good person, and an effective leader, not someone that uses violence as the first and best option.

Well if you aren't going to have a child until you are 40 , You mnight just want to rethink having one then. You would be more like to risk you future child to have some kind of physical or mental deformity if you wait that long. Especially if your wife is 40. That alone is bad parenting from the start man. wink.gif But seriously. Your kid will be 20, and you'll be 61. My fiance who is 23, just lost his father in July (Don't know why I put may, weird.....???) and he was 60. Don't do that to your kid. He should have had many more years with him.

Ps. you're on about the coke. but by then a coke will be at least 20.00, so to stiffle the cost of inflation, how about you just buy me one now?

Oh my wife will be like 20 Just kidding, if it has a deformity we're just going to throw it in the trash and try again Just kidding. Maybe.

Right now I'm 22, and my father is 61. He's got at least 30 more years in him, both my parents look like they're in their mid forties.

Stupid maximum quote blocks >.< Edited April 2, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[kornkitten42]

I highly doubt you were tazed for no reason. 2nd -You were drunk- seems like a valid reason if you were out of your mind. 3rd time, at least you admit you were wrong.

I was at a party that was getting broken up, consuming alcohol above the legal age, which is 19 here, and running for a place to hide so I didn't get arrested for some bullshit reason like contributing to the delinquency of a minor. That is not a reason for a cop to independently decide to electrocute someone, and if you think it is, you're insane. Regarding the second time, I am an extremely gentle and passive drunk, I -know- I wasn't being threatening. I barely remember it but yeah, even if I was charging the cops, you do not need to electrocute a drunk guy to bring him down. They probably could have thrown a thick magazine at me and I would have been down for the count. Regarding the third time, I don't admit I was wrong, they were using unnecessary force against my idiotic drunk friend and I still think I did the right thing by trying to talk the cop down.

We now live in a society that has been so pumped up by fear of everything from terrorists to sting rays, that our public security officers have come to very much resemble Tweek of South Park fame.


Just going to reply to this for the moment, i'm working on some other stuff at the moment. Yes. You deserved to get tazed. If you are running from an officer of the law, they have every right to detain you in whatever means neccessary. You run, they tell you to stop, you don't , you can actually get shot. Feel lucky you were only tazed, it's a "non lethal way" to keep you from running... and YES 100% YES. you deserved it. I'm not insane. But I also feel that people should be punished for their actions. Don't want to get tazed? Don't Run! Don't Want to get tazed? Don't resist an officer of the law. Don't want to be tazed, don't try raping a woman that has a tazer. I'm not insane, I know the law. Which most people don't feel they have to follow or abide by.

Also- by your actions- I see you don't have respect for the law or authority. You ran. You only cared about not going to jail, Not that you were actually contributing to the delenquency of a minor in the first place. and that right there, is what I'm saying about the moral fiber of this country/ world. You didn't feel that you had to answer to anyone for your actions.


and secondly- yes, i've seen many a drunk get tazed because they get mad, they get rowdy and they get violent. I would rather tazer a drunk to get him to quit resisting, or whatever than to shoot his stupid drunk ass.
Which if he's charging me, beating me, or whatever, I have every right to do. As a citizen and more so if I was a police officer.

Again, just making a point - If someone tried to rape me, I'd shoot them in the head w/ a gun if I had the chance. If I only had a tazer he'd get it right to the johnson if I could and i'd keep pumping him full of it until he was smoking and medium well and the officers got there. Edited April 3, 2008 by kornkitten42

[kornkitten42]

Once they put something toxic into their mouth, and they have to get their stomach pumped (that shit is painful, trust me it will be a deterrent) they won't do it again!

Mostly just kidding. I guess firstly it's probably not good parenting to leave toxic shit around a 2 year old. It really isn't that hard to baby-proof a house. Secondly sure, I'll tell you how. You sit them down, and tell them rationally like an adult. They're not going to understand you or comprehend you, but what will develop in their little brains, somewhere way below the surface, is that talking and reasoning is the way that you solve problems. That's what makes a strong man, a good person, and an effective leader, not someone that uses violence as the first and best option.


Hunny, I have bad news.. I'm sorry to let you know this. But if you sit a 2 year old down and tell them that, they won't even pay attention to the sounds coming out of your mouth, let alone the actual words.

Genesha- had a valid story, Mine is the same with the actual POISON. My house WAS child proofed. The lysol was in a cabinet that had baby locks on it. I still got into the cabinet and drank it. I guess I was a smart damn kid. I could have died. What if you don't get to your child fast enough for your speech to work? How many times will you give that same speech?

Again, I don't know if you have any experience with kids. Have you ever baby sat, watched a toddler for extended periods of time? For some reason I don't think you have. I have at least done that much. I have taken care of children though every stage from newborn to middle schooler. Talking rational to an infant/ toddler is difficult because they don't understand what is happening.



-------------------------------------------------------------
You've been raped 3 times? If you were actually being raped, would't you lose your semi? (the one where you were a sleep, I can see "technically being raped" don't understand how you slept though it though.)
I thought unless it was a man on man thing or something is being inserted into your rectum, a man could't be raped (I'm just kidding) But seriously. You are much stronger than a girl. How come you didn't overpower her and make her stop?

If you were able to, or had one, would you have tazed her to get her off of you? If not, then no, I don't think you were actually raped. You may not have been all that into it. But being "raped" is 1000000000 PERCENT something where you would have done anything and everything to get them off of you.


Ok, seriously I have stuff to do.
Don't take this as me attacking you, but that last part is something I feel super strongly about and wayyyy to many people abuse that word, and use it under false pretense Edited April 3, 2008 by kornkitten42

[gaia.plateau]

Just going to reply to this for the moment, i'm working on some other stuff at the moment. Yes. You deserved to get tazed. If you are running from an officer of the law, they have every right to detain you in whatever means neccessary. You run, they tell you to stop, you don't , you can actually get shot. Feel lucky you were only tazed, it's a "non lethal way" to keep you from running... and YES 100% YES. you deserved it. I'm not insane. But I also feel that people should be punished for their actions. Don't want to get tazed? Don't Run! Don't Want to get tazed? Don't resist an officer of the law. Don't want to be tazed, don't try raping a woman that has a tazer. I'm not insane, I know the law. Which most people don't feel they have to follow or abide by.

Also- by your actions- I see you don't have respect for the law or authority. You ran. You only cared about not going to jail, Not that you were actually contributing to the delenquency of a minor in the first place. and that right there, is what I'm saying about the moral fiber of this country/ world. You didn't feel that you had to answer to anyone for your actions.

1) They didn't tell me to stop.
2) I wasn't breaking the law, I used the contributing to the delinquency as an example of some bullshit charge they might have hit me with. I didn't care about not going to jail, I knew that I wasn't going to jail. I cared about going to another party or a bar or something instead of wasting an hour or so being accountable to some dipshit cop's biases and predjudices, and possibly even spending a night in a drunk tank.
3) A cop can't shoot you for no reason, and I'm pretty positive that they can't shoot you in the back as you run even if they do tell you to stop, if they don't even have a shred of evidence to show you were posing a threat. Think about it, you're suggesting that a cop can approach a person who is running, tell them to stop, and immediately shoot them for not stopping.

And civilians can't carry tasers here, they never have been allowed to, male or female.

and secondly- yes, i've seen many a drunk get tazed because they get mad, they get rowdy and they get violent. I would rather tazer a drunk to get him to quit resisting, or whatever than to shoot his stupid drunk ass.
Which if he's charging me, beating me, or whatever, I have every right to do. As a citizen and more so if I was a police officer.

We're not talking about someone getting tased because they were mad, rowdy or violent, we're talking about people who get tased for asking a question, being Muslim, being young, having dreadlocks, for knowing their rights, or for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time in the presence of an ignorant, power-abusing redneck with a badge and a chip on his shoulder.

Again, just making a point - If someone tried to rape me, I'd shoot them in the head w/ a gun if I had the chance.

I can't be certain, but I'm pretty sure that if you did that in Canada you'd be going away for manslaughter or even premeditated manslaughter. Alternatively, you could always move to Florida and legally shoot people for winking at you the wrong way.

Do you think that men should be able to shoot women in the head with a gun, for trying to rape them? In the 10th grade I half-woke up at a party in a strange room getting blown by a strange girl, are you arguing that I would have been perfectly justified to blow her brains out? And if not, isn't that sexist?

[gaia.plateau]

Hunny, I have bad news.. I'm sorry to let you know this. But if you sit a 2 year old down and tell them that, they won't even pay attention to the sounds coming out of your mouth, let alone the actual words.

Which is what I said... but what they will do, as voluminous studies have shown, is make the connection between verbal communication and problem resolution, as opposed to making a connection between physical violence and problem resolution. It shouldn't be a life-or-death situation anyway, unless you carelessly leave toxic shit around the living room.

You've been raped 3 times? If you were actually being raped, would't you lose your semi?

If a girl was actually being raped, wouldn't her vagina stop lubricating itself? Point to gaia

What our bodies want and what our minds want ain't ever hardly but similar.

(the one where you were a sleep, I can see "technically being raped" don't understand how you slept though it though.)
I thought unless it was a man on man thing or something is being inserted into your rectum, a man could't be raped (I'm just kidding) But seriously. You are much stronger than a girl. How come you didn't overpower her and make her stop?

Have you never passed out from tequila? A little sex isn't going to wake you up FFS, a rocket launch next door isn't going to wake you up. If you're sleeping, and your boyfriend fucks you and doesn't wake you up, is that not rape?

Regarding the other times, once it was a girl I hardly knew and I did throw her off of me, that was rape. Another time it was a girl I kind of knew and thought was pretty cute and she was doing a good job and I was blitzed out of my mind, so I just went with it. Still, if I'd been sober it wouldn't have happened, if it happened to a girl, it would be rape, there's no difference in the semantics. I accept that women are in a societally submissive position to men in most countries and have been for millenia, and that women are more emotional creatures, and that these things make rape much more serious and traumatic for you. That's a difference in the implications of rape though, not the reality of it.

If you were able to, or had one, would you have tazed her to get her off of you? If not, then no, I don't think you were actually raped. You may not have been all that into it. But being "raped" is 1000000000 PERCENT something where you would have done anything and everything to get them off of you.

In the one scenario, if I couldn't have thrown her off, and there was no other way that I could have gotten her off of me? Yeah, I probably would have tased her. But that would have meant that she was like 500 pounds, and the implications for my reputation that I was raped by a 500 pound chick would have been far worse than the implications for my reputation that I tased a bitch for sucking my dick.

And I disagree with you, at least if we follow the socially determined definition of rape. Women are winning court cases all over your country just because they bone somebody and regret it, or because they were too drunk, or because they got an STD, etc. etc. It's a double standard that I think is just wrong.

Ok, seriously I have stuff to do.
Don't take this as me attacking you, but that last part is something I feel super strongly about and wayyyy to many people abuse that word, and use it under false pretense

I happen to agree with you, but as long as society defines rape as any non-consensual sexual action, I'm sticking to my position

Edited for typo. Edited April 3, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[kornkitten42]

ok. I respect wanting to debate other topics. But we have let this topic go astray from child rearing.

I hada whole big thing typed out and said WOW this has 1 thing to do with children and how to raise them and felt bad that we were thread jacking our own thread. lol.

I'll try and pm you my responses or I will open up a new topic / one that is already on the subjects and continue in there.

[gaia.plateau]

I'm afraid that this thread may already be jacked beyond recognition and repair.