China And Tibet

[Shakes]

I've been following the civil unrest in Tibet in response to Chinese encroachment. Though the area has been a source of conflict since '59, thing have escalated with the approach of the Olympic games in China. Being a communist country, it is expected of China to censor news of the events from the rest of the world, but I stumbled upon an article that suggests much, much worse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/02/china.tibet

Does China genuinely believe that the rest of the world will buy into such absurd allegations against the Tibetan people and the Dalai Lama?


edit: can a mod please put the "h" in my thread title? it would be much appreciated Edited April 2, 2008 by Shakes

[r1v3th3ad]

I think China has no right to trespass in that holy land...
on another note, I was in DC on Sunday at the Smithsonian Museum for a class. Whilest outside smoking, I had an asian women around 80yrs old, that only knew how to say "Sign this" in english, try to get me to sign a petition against the games being held there. She was demanding and couldn't explain why. Maybe if she would have taken the time to explain things to me so I would know whether or not I support it, as well as if she was not demanding, I might not have signed with the fake name I put on there...I might actually have given my support

so whats the deal with that, I'm guessing it runs hand in hand eh?

[erufiku]

Unfortunately it all comes down to politics. Nobody buys the bs that China is trying to push regarding Tibet, including the Chinese government itself. Unfortunately, as you might have noticed, everything these days is made in China, so the world economy is pretty much dependent on the steady flow of crappy products (Dollar stores anyone?) coming from China, therefore nobody really does anything to change the situation. This is a simplified version of what's actually happening, of course, but delving any deeper is beyond my knowledge at the moment.

[AlphaJuno]

This topic is perfect for liberal college students.

By the way, isn't Tibet a region of China? What does China want from Tibet that upsets everyone?

Give us some background info here, people!

[gaia.plateau]

I think China has no right to trespass in that holy land...

I don't think that Tibetans consider their land to be 'holy'... spiritual, perhaps. A minority of Buddhists consider Buddha to have transcended to diety status, but to my knowledge the Vajrayana do not.

[gaia.plateau]

Unfortunately it all comes down to politics. Nobody buys the bs that China is trying to push regarding Tibet, including the Chinese government itself. Unfortunately, as you might have noticed, everything these days is made in China, so the world economy is pretty much dependent on the steady flow of crappy products (Dollar stores anyone?) coming from China, therefore nobody really does anything to change the situation. This is a simplified version of what's actually happening, of course, but delving any deeper is beyond my knowledge at the moment.

I agree with you to a point, but I think it's more that Tibet offers no geopolitical or economic advantage to the other powers of the world, which is their disincentive to act, moreso than a fear of trade consequences with China. For example, the US government recognizes and has friendly diplomatic relations with the Dalai Lama, which I believe they do for purposes of domestic public opinion, at the cost of potential trade consequences with China.

Conducively to this example, the US already has a strong geopolitical position against China in Taiwan, which is even more offensive to China than would be greater Western support of Tibet.

[ZenSilk]

In a way this whole thing is a tad similar to Ghandi, in his way fo dealing with things. The Dalai Lama is going about it the "Right" way, but not the way that will work. Being forgiving is getting his people nowhere, and they are losing love for him fairly quickly, unfortunately. Force is the only thing that will work, the Tibetan youth are now noticing that, and are getting violent (i guess instead of self-inflicted violence). As U.S. citizens, there's nothing we can really do but go over there and throw a brick or 2 at a Chinaman; or, pour gasoline on ourselves over here and ignite it. China won't back down, and they have basically already one. They are just waiting out the current Dalai Lama's death.

Although the Dalai Lama is peace-loving and unbelievably forgiving, that won't re-direct the Chinese view of Tibet. They have ruined the country, it is nothing like it used to be. It will never be again.

[thecoalition]

you know if we just sent in John Rambo a few years ago....and then back....and then back for a final one.....then back after retirement.....this would have been stopped a long time ago.

[gaia.plateau]

In a way this whole thing is a tad similar to Ghandi, in his way fo dealing with things. The Dalai Lama is going about it the "Right" way, but not the way that will work. Being forgiving is getting his people nowhere, and they are losing love for him fairly quickly, unfortunately. Force is the only thing that will work, the Tibetan youth are now noticing that, and are getting violent (i guess instead of self-inflicted violence). As U.S. citizens, there's nothing we can really do but go over there and throw a brick or 2 at a Chinaman; or, pour gasoline on ourselves over here and ignite it. China won't back down, and they have basically already one. They are just waiting out the current Dalai Lama's death.

Although the Dalai Lama is peace-loving and unbelievably forgiving, that won't re-direct the Chinese view of Tibet. They have ruined the country, it is nothing like it used to be. It will never be again.

You know that the Dalai Lama, as well as Ghandi, Thich Nhat Hanh, Aung Sang Suu Kyi, and thousands of others of pacifist political activists do accept that violence of liberation is sometimes neccessary, hey?

+1 for self-immolation though, it's worked in the past.

[crisbeatz]

In a way this whole thing is a tad similar to Ghandi, in his way fo dealing with things. The Dalai Lama is going about it the "Right" way, but not the way that will work. Being forgiving is getting his people nowhere, and they are losing love for him fairly quickly, unfortunately. Force is the only thing that will work, the Tibetan youth are now noticing that, and are getting violent (i guess instead of self-inflicted violence). As U.S. citizens, there's nothing we can really do but go over there and throw a brick or 2 at a Chinaman; or, pour gasoline on ourselves over here and ignite it. China won't back down, and they have basically already one. They are just waiting out the current Dalai Lama's death.

Although the Dalai Lama is peace-loving and unbelievably forgiving, that won't re-direct the Chinese view of Tibet. They have ruined the country, it is nothing like it used to be. It will never be again.

I'm going to try to find all of my research on tibet and try to find links to articals and what-not but......oh this might be painful......the tibetan Dalai Lhama can kiss my....uh.... vote for him goodbye. Things that I have found happened because of China's "invasion":

a. Electricity has been introduced
b. Slavery of the lower class has been eliminated
c. Upper class could no longer treat lower class individuals like animals(it's pretty much the same as
d. The Dalai Lhama and goverment no longer held 90% of the wealth
e. I almost forgot running water and sewage drainage were also introduced.

The list goes on forever (not really). Anyway, all I'm saying is that there are always two sides of the story and NEVER believe the hype. Of course I am no historian nore do I claim to know the whole story, but I do feel that this is one of those issues where your being told the story they want you to hear. What's the big deal with the Olympics in China? What does it really matter to the tibetans? How often do you hear about the Hmongs who some look at as being the "Jews" of asia or something.

Then again, U.S.A. did "invade" Iraq and look what we gave them! Wal-Marts, MacDonald's, General Motors and even check cashing joints and loan companies! How can they not love us! (I laugh at myself as I write this)

I guess I'll just shut up now but hopefully I don't get flamed for this.

Disclaimer*
In no way do I actually have an opinion on this matter. I may "Go against the grain" for the sake of doing so and also to fufill my sick addiction for entertainment, but I do so truthfully. I hope that my urge to defy starts a dominoe effect in your minds that leads you to do some actual fucking research. Any Lightbulbs going off yet? I will not come back to this topic for in my opinion, it is another pointless argument. That is my statement so feel free to rip me a new asshole. Have a great day!

[Texico]

China says it's ready to meet with aide to Dalai Lama

Progress? Or is China just doing this for its global PR? I'd hate to think that the Tibetans would manage to do something during the Olympic Games along the lines of the Black September/Al-Fatah '72 Munich debacle. It would be interesting to see China's response to something like that though and the international repercussions.

[MechAnt]

+10000 to crisbeatz

Most people say there's a genocide or something happening in Tibet. THEY ARE FULL OF SHIT! There have been native Chinese murdered in the streets of Tibet, police and innocent people injured by the hundreds, police cars, fire trucks, even ambulances have been set on fire. Stores have been looted and set on fire. Tibet is going to shit and the Chinese government had no choice but to intervene with a bit of force. If you look at the world's responses to this "crisis", all of them are supporting China because all the facts have been taken into account unlike the fucking hippies that don't know the real reasons why there is turmoil. Like crisbeatz said, China brought electricity, clean water, education, and food to that area. Everyone needs to educate themselves on these issues instead of making statements base on emotion.

This is not directed to any one here, its just my little rant.

[Texico]

Ok, I have a question for anyone who knows the answer, because I don't. What are the reasons for the Tibetan unrest? If life is so good now as opposed to what it was before the Chinese take over then why are they rising up like this? Is it solely because they don't like being under Chinese rule and would like to have their own sovereignty back?

[Bushbr]

as neither a resident of china nor tibet, i really don't see why i should care about how china runs their country, or how they run other countries. if they were fighting a war in the country but NOT taking it over, that would be stupid and not make sence *hint hint* but since they owned up and took over the place... ok big deal.... next 'dilemma'

[ilikemyusername]

Wow , yeah Tibet... what a bunch of crazy buddhists eh? wow, they seem like really bad people. i'm going to jump on the bandwagon here!Tibet ftl! how dare they thing they can be a peaceful nation! wtf! thats not the american way! some of you people are clearly in need of a history/culture lesson. China disgusts me because i do my research. the chinese govronment needs to eat a big pile of burning shit and poop out burning shit, eat that shit and take thier toxic toys with them! Edited May 3, 2008 by ilikemyusername

[ilikemyusername]

i'm sorry
i'm not nice sometimes
i'm not one to play nice with others
i'm not liking life today
i'm not thinkking straight
i'm the guy that doesn't believe in bigfoot
i'm the guy that doesn't believe in humans
i'm the guy that doesn't believe in the media
i'm the guy that doesn't believe in (oh fudge i'm off topic, nobody cares!)
i'm the guy that hates china
i'm the guy
i'm the guy

[gaia.plateau]

next 'dilemma'

Don't you mean "next distraction"?

[St. Goodypants]

The main issue is that china interfered with the practice of a religion.

It doesn't help that china has a published history of "civil rights abuses."

[nathan_Choi]

The main issue is that china interfered with the practice of a religion.

It doesn't help that china has a published history of "civil rights abuses."

Keep in mind, that Tibet's record on human rights abuses (BEFORE the Chinese ever came int) isn't any better.

[nathan_Choi]

Ok, I have a question for anyone who knows the answer, because I don't. What are the reasons for the Tibetan unrest? If life is so good now as opposed to what it was before the Chinese take over then why are they rising up like this? Is it solely because they don't like being under Chinese rule and would like to have their own sovereignty back?

I imagine so, yes. I wouldn't doubt that some of the allegations of Chinese abuse happens (just like Tibetans killing Han Chinese living in Tibet), but probably exaggerated for the purpose of drawing sympathy from the rest of the world.

The Dali Lama and his fellow priests probably just want to be back in power though, and I believe they are the main movers and shakers.

[Brownman18]

Lol


Tibet was a warlike nation of peace long before they were overrun, They have monks and a nice spiritual culture, for them maybe the food electricity and sewage wasn't what they wanted?


God forbid maybe they loved their timber and resources in the ground instead of in our homes via china's raping of them.


Also they are the real government of China as well, depending how you look at it.


Anyways Tibet was taken over long ago, and nobody helped them, its foolish to even insinuate that the tibetan youth in India should fight an inserection against China in tibet, they won't win its as simple as that. And the dalai lama probly knows that to an extent, i doubt he wants to be the one that sent all those young teens to their deaths by saying "lets go get them" even though he has no money or wealth like we do, he has no tanks no nothing to even put up a half decent fight, it'd just be a nice slaughter fest.


it's not all bad though, some of tibet still exists its just in Dharmasala India (sorry for spelling errors but i am too tired to correct them) Edited May 19, 2008 by Brownman18

[ronald_dooley]

In a way this whole thing is a tad similar to Ghandi, in his way fo dealing with things. The Dalai Lama is going about it the "Right" way, but not the way that will work. Being forgiving is getting his people nowhere, and they are losing love for him fairly quickly, unfortunately. Force is the only thing that will work, the Tibetan youth are now noticing that, and are getting violent (i guess instead of self-inflicted violence). As U.S. citizens, there's nothing we can really do but go over there and throw a brick or 2 at a Chinaman; or, pour gasoline on ourselves over here and ignite it. China won't back down, and they have basically already one. They are just waiting out the current Dalai Lama's death.

Although the Dalai Lama is peace-loving and unbelievably forgiving, that won't re-direct the Chinese view of Tibet. They have ruined the country, it is nothing like it used to be. It will never be again.

I'm going to try to find all of my research on tibet and try to find links to articals and what-not but......oh this might be painful......the tibetan Dalai Lhama can kiss my....uh.... vote for him goodbye. Things that I have found happened because of China's "invasion":

a. Electricity has been introduced
b. Slavery of the lower class has been eliminated
c. Upper class could no longer treat lower class individuals like animals(it's pretty much the same as
d. The Dalai Lhama and goverment no longer held 90% of the wealth
e. I almost forgot running water and sewage drainage were also introduced.

The list goes on forever (not really). Anyway, all I'm saying is that there are always two sides of the story and NEVER believe the hype. Of course I am no historian nore do I claim to know the whole story, but I do feel that this is one of those issues where your being told the story they want you to hear. What's the big deal with the Olympics in China? What does it really matter to the tibetans? How often do you hear about the Hmongs who some look at as being the "Jews" of asia or something.

Then again, U.S.A. did "invade" Iraq and look what we gave them! Wal-Marts, MacDonald's, General Motors and even check cashing joints and loan companies! How can they not love us! (I laugh at myself as I write this)

I guess I'll just shut up now but hopefully I don't get flamed for this.

Disclaimer*
In no way do I actually have an opinion on this matter. I may "Go against the grain" for the sake of doing so and also to fufill my sick addiction for entertainment, but I do so truthfully. I hope that my urge to defy starts a dominoe effect in your minds that leads you to do some actual fucking research. Any Lightbulbs going off yet? I will not come back to this topic for in my opinion, it is another pointless argument. That is my statement so feel free to rip me a new asshole. Have a great day!

Best post ever.

[wongxiao]

Most people say there's a genocide or something happening in Tibet. THEY ARE FULL OF SHIT! There have been native Chinese murdered in the streets of Tibet, police and innocent people injured by the hundreds, police cars, fire trucks, even ambulances have been set on fire. Stores have been looted and set on fire. Tibet is going to shit and the Chinese government had no choice but to intervene with a bit of force. If you look at the world's responses to this "crisis", all of them are supporting China because all the facts have been taken into account unlike the fucking hippies that don't know the real reasons why there is turmoil. Like crisbeatz said, China brought electricity, clean water, education, and food to that area. Everyone needs to educate themselves on these issues instead of making statements base on emotion.

Too true.


I happen to know people who have been to both China and Tibet (I'm talking about actual Chinese here, not tourists). Based on the stories I've heard, Tibet is no "pacifist state." Far from it, in fact....


It's very popular to hate China. It tantalizes our stereotypically American, self-righteous cry for "justice" around the world. It's a step on the ladder which lets us get up on a moral high horse or soapbox and flaunt our moral superiority. Feels good, doesn't it?

But really, it's all just sensationalist hype. I've yet to encounter anyone with actual first-hand knowledge who doesn't support China on this issue.

[Apoc Genesis]

Most people say there's a genocide or something happening in Tibet. THEY ARE FULL OF SHIT! There have been native Chinese murdered in the streets of Tibet, police and innocent people injured by the hundreds, police cars, fire trucks, even ambulances have been set on fire. Stores have been looted and set on fire. Tibet is going to shit and the Chinese government had no choice but to intervene with a bit of force. If you look at the world's responses to this "crisis", all of them are supporting China because all the facts have been taken into account unlike the fucking hippies that don't know the real reasons why there is turmoil. Like crisbeatz said, China brought electricity, clean water, education, and food to that area. Everyone needs to educate themselves on these issues instead of making statements base on emotion.

Too true.


I happen to know people who have been to both China and Tibet (I'm talking about actual Chinese here, not tourists). Based on the stories I've heard, Tibet is no "pacifist state." Far from it, in fact....


It's very popular to hate China. It tantalizes our stereotypically American, self-righteous cry for "justice" around the world. It's a step on the ladder which lets us get up on a moral high horse or soapbox and flaunt our moral superiority. Feels good, doesn't it?

But really, it's all just sensationalist hype. I've yet to encounter anyone with actual first-hand knowledge who doesn't support China on this issue.

Honestly, I want to think that the Tibetans are a bunch of pleasant people who just wish to go about their business without having Chinese ways shoved down their throats. This is because I admire Buddhist culture and spiritual thinking, and I try to incorporate that way of life into my relativley carefree, consumer driven lifestyle that is my American birthright.

But these posts have proved to me that because I live in America, I really should not have a say in what is going on in these countries. I don't know any facts whatsoever because I have not experienced it, and any information I get will be from third parties who have a stake in convincing me that their view is right.

It's upsetting to think that China really is looking to stifle a unique and spiritual culture in the name of cultural homogenity. It is even more upsetting to think that Buddhists are speaking of peace and oneness but resorting to such acts of violence and intimidation against the Han Chinese. I find that we have such a "righteous anger complex" in Western society that it is becoming impossible to say who is the good guy in any conflict anymore.

why cant we all just sit down and have a pint?

[wongxiao]

why cant we all just sit down and have a pint?

lol, not much of a beer person myself... I'll gladly sit down with some Fantasia Margarita or Starbuzz Citrus Mist (2 current favorites lol) though!