Ben Stein Movie

[r1v3th3ad]

hey guys, I'm handing the keyboard over to my gf on this...I have no idea what she is about to say, but here she goes:

I know most of this argument is none of my business. I don't know any of you. But I thought perhaps you would like the opinion of someone who is a devout Christian, and has been their entire lives. My faith has never been in question.

There are many arguments to disprove the idea that God created earth, and all who inhabit it. I've been faced with them on a regular basis. You can't live in a world like ours, with science, facts, proofs and disproofs without facing these arguments. I'm not gonna preach to you, it's not my place to do so. However, I will say that there are many, many, many Christians in professional positions. Scientists, teachers, government officials, etc. These people's faith stands strong in the face of adveserial forces. However, the fact of the matter is, you can't prove or disprove the existence of God, and any Christian who tells you they can, needs to read their Bible one more time. It's the entire basis of Christianity that our belief is faith. Nothing more, nothing less. If there were evidence to prove beyond a shadow of doubt, we would no longer have faith, we would have proof.
Back to the movie, the fact is, you can hate it, love it, or not really care, but we as Americans have a right to say what we think, and what we believe. Or so we are told by our oh so loyal government. (That's sarcasm, in case you can't tell). We are not allowed to express our beliefs without being censored. Wether it be by government, employees, or just society in general. With all of the problems this nation faces, that we as people face, would it kill us to be able to speak about God?? I mean, Really? We are allowed to make films showing some very, very vulgar things. We ignore occcurences of human cruelty and brutality on a daily basis. We are allowed to speak our minds about money, sexuality, abuse of our women and children... the list goes on and on. But the first time someone says God, or anything related to our faiths, we become sterotyped as religious nuts, and are accused of infringing on the rights of those of different faiths, or without faith at all. We are not allowed to state our beliefs or express them in schools, or public places without severe repurcussions.
So, my main point is this. We can say what we believe and what we feel as Christians, Jews, Muslims, or any other faith that we may have. We have the right as individuals, as Americans, and as people. Disagree all you like, but do not treat us differently just because we are different than you. No one has the right answer, no one knows the truths of the universe, but we all have a right to have our theories and beliefs. And even if this movie is a little biased, and maybe not perfect in its ideas, we have a right to make it, we have a right to watch it. There were many movie theaters who refused to play this film, at the risk of offending people. Why? We can flip the bird to people, we can cuss and swear all we all like at people because we have freedom of speech, but we cannot question authority? We can't question science? We can't question the goverment and education systems? Yes, we can. And I for one will every chance I get, and so should you.

[DISCLAIMER] I would like to state, none of these beliefs are r1v3th3ad's. They are solely mine. I had no intention of offending anyone, or stepping on any toes, I just thought perhaps I could add to this discussion in a way that might encourage some of you to think outside the box. I have no qualms about anyone disagreeing with me, or labeling me, or thinking poorly of me because of it. But this had nothing to do with him, so please remember that as you continue to post and reply.

ok im sorry but i feel that in a country that only about 14 percent of the country doesnt consider its self affiliated with a religious organization, its hard to see Christians as the minority. God is placed in front of my face every day, be it on the cash i spend at the gas station, the baseball game i go to, or apparently Florida where they are considering religious license plates. you live in a society that walks around on egg shells for your religion so that you feel as though it is the predominate faith (which it is). im a firm believer that god should play no part in the running of this country, those of you that tell me that "this country was founded on religion" are not getting what it was about. we came here for the freedom to worship the god of our choice, not the god that was shoved in our face by the king. i feel sorry for the kids of eastern religions in schools now that have to sit there and feel as though they are an outsider in a country that hardly recognizes their religion. so please i respect your opinion, but christians are hardly the outsider. not when almost every member of congress, every president we have ever had, and people on the supreme court are those that share your opinions. evolution and religion are hardly two separate arguments, in fact the two often can coexist. i hate to borrow a line from south park but... cant it be the answer to how and not why? i wrestle with my own religious beliefs quite often, but find my self thinking one thing consistently. if evolution is real, it makes me feel more apt to believe in a god. the chances of that happening are astonishing. our body is perfectly symmetrical, the way the planets lie in the solar system, all these things are beautiful and astonishing, but had to have a movement. nobody says be stein cant make a movie, but it should be based on facts. he pulls the wool over the public with bogus speeches and false stories of workers being given a pink slip over something that many of their coworkers believe also, just in a different way. why does mr stein make up bogus stories? why did he int the middle of a tanking carreer decide to make a movie with such comical quips and lies.... the almighty dollar. in god we trust indeed.

once again, letting my girlfriend respond, since this is her conversation, not mine...besides...I'm tipsy


here she is:

I respect your opinion, and am increadibly greatful you chose to state your response logically and politely. I do agree with a lot of what you said. Christians are probably not a minority.... I don't know that statistic for sure. However, I will say that there are far more hypocrites than true Christians. There are many people in legistature that claim to be Christians, but they do so that they look better. They want to be percieved as having morals and standards. And the same goes for society, they are far too many "Christians" who claim to follow the way of Christ and if you see their lifestyle, it completely contradicts Christian beliefs. There is a song by a one of my favorite bands that says in the beginning "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle." This sums up what I'm saying perfectly. My argument was not so much that Christians are a minority, as much as it was that we, as a society, accept vulgarity as regualarity of life, and dont blink an eye, but that a little talk about God seems to cause such an uproar. And I'm not saying this is running rampant, but it is an issue. To further my point, I just heard on the radio today of a Christian rapper called KJ52, who wrote a song in response to Eminem's "Stan", and was humilated all over mtv and vh1. He was merely trying to stay that Eminem's music is not a positive infulence to the young children who listen to it, and that he (KJ52) would be praying that Eminem could find peace with demons of his past, and try to help those in similar situtations, instead of influence them in a negative manner. Feel free to look up the song, it's called "Dear Slim". However, the radio Dj and this rapper (KJ52) were having this big discussion about how mtv and vh1 said some extremely hurtful things all over their networks.. and for what?? Because this rapper said he was praying for Eminem? When did praying for someone become such a big taboo??

While I agree with most of what you said, the evidence that supports my idea is there. Perhaps not overwhelming, but it is there. There are many people who claim to be Christians, and taint the good name that we have. But you have that with any religion, or any group for that matter. We, as humans, like to categorize people and make them fit into are little boxes that we have defined. And when someone questions anything, they step outside that well-defined box. And in turn we place them into a new box, as a religious nut, a crazy person, a political nut job.. whatever. My only point to arguing about this movie was that we are individuals, all of us, and we should be aloud to think outside the box, believe outside the box, and live outside the box that society so often likes to pigeonhold us with.

[DISCLAIMER]: Yet again, I wish to state these are not the opinions of r1v3th3ad. These are solely mine. It is not my intention to offend anyone, merely to state my opinions and repsonses to yours. If you want to know he feels on the subject, you will have to take that up with him.

[jamesh2]

hey guys, I'm handing the keyboard over to my gf on this...I have no idea what she is about to say, but here she goes:

I know most of this argument is none of my business. I don't know any of you. But I thought perhaps you would like the opinion of someone who is a devout Christian, and has been their entire lives. My faith has never been in question.

There are many arguments to disprove the idea that God created earth, and all who inhabit it. I've been faced with them on a regular basis. You can't live in a world like ours, with science, facts, proofs and disproofs without facing these arguments. I'm not gonna preach to you, it's not my place to do so. However, I will say that there are many, many, many Christians in professional positions. Scientists, teachers, government officials, etc. These people's faith stands strong in the face of adveserial forces. However, the fact of the matter is, you can't prove or disprove the existence of God, and any Christian who tells you they can, needs to read their Bible one more time. It's the entire basis of Christianity that our belief is faith. Nothing more, nothing less. If there were evidence to prove beyond a shadow of doubt, we would no longer have faith, we would have proof.
Back to the movie, the fact is, you can hate it, love it, or not really care, but we as Americans have a right to say what we think, and what we believe. Or so we are told by our oh so loyal government. (That's sarcasm, in case you can't tell). We are not allowed to express our beliefs without being censored. Wether it be by government, employees, or just society in general. With all of the problems this nation faces, that we as people face, would it kill us to be able to speak about God?? I mean, Really? We are allowed to make films showing some very, very vulgar things. We ignore occcurences of human cruelty and brutality on a daily basis. We are allowed to speak our minds about money, sexuality, abuse of our women and children... the list goes on and on. But the first time someone says God, or anything related to our faiths, we become sterotyped as religious nuts, and are accused of infringing on the rights of those of different faiths, or without faith at all. We are not allowed to state our beliefs or express them in schools, or public places without severe repurcussions.
So, my main point is this. We can say what we believe and what we feel as Christians, Jews, Muslims, or any other faith that we may have. We have the right as individuals, as Americans, and as people. Disagree all you like, but do not treat us differently just because we are different than you. No one has the right answer, no one knows the truths of the universe, but we all have a right to have our theories and beliefs. And even if this movie is a little biased, and maybe not perfect in its ideas, we have a right to make it, we have a right to watch it. There were many movie theaters who refused to play this film, at the risk of offending people. Why? We can flip the bird to people, we can cuss and swear all we all like at people because we have freedom of speech, but we cannot question authority? We can't question science? We can't question the goverment and education systems? Yes, we can. And I for one will every chance I get, and so should you.

[DISCLAIMER] I would like to state, none of these beliefs are r1v3th3ad's. They are solely mine. I had no intention of offending anyone, or stepping on any toes, I just thought perhaps I could add to this discussion in a way that might encourage some of you to think outside the box. I have no qualms about anyone disagreeing with me, or labeling me, or thinking poorly of me because of it. But this had nothing to do with him, so please remember that as you continue to post and reply.

ok im sorry but i feel that in a country that only about 14 percent of the country doesnt consider its self affiliated with a religious organization, its hard to see Christians as the minority. God is placed in front of my face every day, be it on the cash i spend at the gas station, the baseball game i go to, or apparently Florida where they are considering religious license plates. you live in a society that walks around on egg shells for your religion so that you feel as though it is the predominate faith (which it is). im a firm believer that god should play no part in the running of this country, those of you that tell me that "this country was founded on religion" are not getting what it was about. we came here for the freedom to worship the god of our choice, not the god that was shoved in our face by the king. i feel sorry for the kids of eastern religions in schools now that have to sit there and feel as though they are an outsider in a country that hardly recognizes their religion. so please i respect your opinion, but christians are hardly the outsider. not when almost every member of congress, every president we have ever had, and people on the supreme court are those that share your opinions. evolution and religion are hardly two separate arguments, in fact the two often can coexist. i hate to borrow a line from south park but... cant it be the answer to how and not why? i wrestle with my own religious beliefs quite often, but find my self thinking one thing consistently. if evolution is real, it makes me feel more apt to believe in a god. the chances of that happening are astonishing. our body is perfectly symmetrical, the way the planets lie in the solar system, all these things are beautiful and astonishing, but had to have a movement. nobody says be stein cant make a movie, but it should be based on facts. he pulls the wool over the public with bogus speeches and false stories of workers being given a pink slip over something that many of their coworkers believe also, just in a different way. why does mr stein make up bogus stories? why did he int the middle of a tanking carreer decide to make a movie with such comical quips and lies.... the almighty dollar. in god we trust indeed.

once again, letting my girlfriend respond, since this is her conversation, not mine...besides...I'm tipsy


here she is:

I respect your opinion, and am increadibly greatful you chose to state your response logically and politely. I do agree with a lot of what you said. Christians are probably not a minority.... I don't know that statistic for sure. However, I will say that there are far more hypocrites than true Christians. There are many people in legistature that claim to be Christians, but they do so that they look better. They want to be percieved as having morals and standards. And the same goes for society, they are far too many "Christians" who claim to follow the way of Christ and if you see their lifestyle, it completely contradicts Christian beliefs. There is a song by a one of my favorite bands that says in the beginning "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle." This sums up what I'm saying perfectly. My argument was not so much that Christians are a minority, as much as it was that we, as a society, accept vulgarity as regualarity of life, and dont blink an eye, but that a little talk about God seems to cause such an uproar. And I'm not saying this is running rampant, but it is an issue. To further my point, I just heard on the radio today of a Christian rapper called KJ52, who wrote a song in response to Eminem's "Stan", and was humilated all over mtv and vh1. He was merely trying to stay that Eminem's music is not a positive infulence to the young children who listen to it, and that he (KJ52) would be praying that Eminem could find peace with demons of his past, and try to help those in similar situtations, instead of influence them in a negative manner. Feel free to look up the song, it's called "Dear Slim". However, the radio Dj and this rapper (KJ52) were having this big discussion about how mtv and vh1 said some extremely hurtful things all over their networks.. and for what?? Because this rapper said he was praying for Eminem? When did praying for someone become such a big taboo??

While I agree with most of what you said, the evidence that supports my idea is there. Perhaps not overwhelming, but it is there. There are many people who claim to be Christians, and taint the good name that we have. But you have that with any religion, or any group for that matter. We, as humans, like to categorize people and make them fit into are little boxes that we have defined. And when someone questions anything, they step outside that well-defined box. And in turn we place them into a new box, as a religious nut, a crazy person, a political nut job.. whatever. My only point to arguing about this movie was that we are individuals, all of us, and we should be aloud to think outside the box, believe outside the box, and live outside the box that society so often likes to pigeonhold us with.

[DISCLAIMER]: Yet again, I wish to state these are not the opinions of r1v3th3ad. These are solely mine. It is not my intention to offend anyone, merely to state my opinions and repsonses to yours. If you want to know he feels on the subject, you will have to take that up with him.

i think i agree 90% with you (not Christian either).i agree there are real Christians out there who chose to read parts of the bible like the sermon on the mountain, (talking about judgment etc) and there are those who chose to acknowledge the old testament mainly to make their points (which is usually supported by imo a lot of hate and bigotry instead of the let he without sin cast the first stone mentality). I have much respect for true Christians, and have absolutely nothing against religion in general, in fact, to run a society i feel it necessary for there to be some sort of religion in at least some of the people. i feel that religion is a great backdrop for those who have nowhere else to turn, i don't want to say as a crutch, but to be honest, some people need it (i.e. AA includes religion in their 12 step program). i feel all these things can be a wonder contribution to society. i think we differ on two viewpoints
i feel atheists are persecuted more than Christians, and feel that in general, the tolerance of religion has increased over the years. for example, the pledge of allegiance didn't include the word god intil the 1950s). I also feel that were granting more exposure to it than ever, and evangelicals play a HUGE role in politics. the president even has evangelicals who he goes to to get advice from. and if you remember Ted Haggard (hippo-Christian who turned out to be gay and on meth etc etc everyone went into panic mode, right before the 06 elections), he was a major contribution and adviser to politicians.

[Scoop]

why are religious nuts always trying to infringe on the rights of the non-religious. sigh

[John Stuart Mill]

Stuie to say that Id is as defensible as a blind process is simply wrong. People have attempted to merge god and evolution in intelligent design. There arguments attempt to demonstrate irreducible complexity. They have pointed to the eye and mammalian blood clotting as evidence. And, to their credit these systems are incredibly complex. However, a quasi-scientific name hardly proves anything.

No evidence currently suggests that intelligent design is occurring. There are of course gaps in evolution that will eventually be filled; however contrary to popular belief evolution is one of the soundest scientific theories. That things are too complex to have evolved into their current states is a statement of faith. One of their earliest tenets mammalian blood clotting has already been solved. Plate tectonics currently has more flaws then evolution, but still people regard it as a fact. There is no evidence to say that more gaps will not be filled with legitimate science. Do you believe the flaws in plate tectonics indicate something actively manipulates them?

Ultimately, we can see small evolutionary changes without apparent design. In a very simple form one may look at the adaptation of bacteria. However, there is virtually no way to demonstrate where an intelligent hand can be found. In that case, adding an unsupported hypothesis merely increases the chance of error by Occam’s razor.

Darwinists don’t reject a primordial soup. What would cause you to make such an assertion? Scientists have replicated possible environments that would have been conducive to life. Have you heard of the Miller-Urey experiment? It proved that organic compounds can arise from a natural inorganic environment, specifically amino acids. Günter Wächtershäuser has replicated not only amino acids, but also peptides in a hot iron sulfur solution. All the materials were available in nature. In fact, they have now created self replicating RNA from what could occur in nature. Manny scientists now think life could have originated from RNA. In a short order, scientists will demonstrate a possible scenario for the natural generation of real life.

Have you been to Europe? Europe mocks us for our consideration of ID. I’ve been to Europe and a debate doesn’t exist, purely because the notion of Id isn’t entertained. Essentially everyone in Europe believes in evolution. Here is an interesting statement by the council of Europe warning of its possible unjustified infiltration into the sciences. They even call intelligent design a modern form of creationism. In response to R’s girlfriend’s comment concerning religious scientists, 93% of the national academy of sciences members are either an atheist or agnostic. I wish I had Graffin’s thesis “Evolution, Monism, Atheism and the Naturalist World View” in front of me, but in lieu of that I assure you nearly 100% believe in evolution. He documents the beliefs of scientists concerning evolution and religion. So their faith didn’t as you said “stay strong.” I’m only mentioning this to dispute the commonly repeated notion that many scientists support Christianity or ID.

[cymptom]

If I understand it correctly, ID suggests that life's complexity warrants an explanation involving the influence of some sort of intelligent force. But to take the position that one complex thing must have been designed by another complex thing brings you into questioning the origins of the designer, and the origins of the origins, and so on, until you are forced to consider it possible for something to have always existed. And if you are willing to accept that something may exist as such without cause -- that the universe can really be that unintelligently mysterious -- why doubt that the complexities of life can come to be without the intervention of an intelligent force?

There's no reason to deny either theory and there's every reason to question them both to the best of our ability. However, whereas the theory of evolution has merit insofar as it is our most verifiable means of speculation as to how complexity comes to be, intelligent design is a shot in the dark that should be respected, pondered, even enjoyed in imagination, but not believed by anyone who realizes the importance of maintaining an open mind. Crediting the theory of intelligent design requires the "leap of faith" that r1v3th3ad's girlfriend is talking about in regards to Christianity. "True Christianity" (what the H E double-hockey-sticks does that even mean?) may or may not be about asserting the existence of a god, but it surely isn't an entirely empty doctrine -- it must assert SOMETHING -- and it sounds to me that if it is not about directly affirming the existence of a god, it is about asserting the integrity of belief without justification or investigation. We have much to lose by allowing our children to be discouraged from questioning every idea they encounter in this world -- they should be taught the value of searching for ideas without committing to any unnecessarily.

[St. Goodypants]

Thank you John Stuart Mill! I was going to try and find a pic of that!

A basic test of the core of the theory of evolution (life adapts through random changes to better it's own growth) can be done: put a colony of bacteria in a petri dish with a small amount of something that restricts it's growth or kills it (penicillin for example.) Do that over and over and eventually the bacteria will adapt to resist that which holds it back.

This is nothing definitive, but it is much more than can be said for intelligent design's core idea that there is something guiding the changes. THAT cannot be tested and thus we must BELIEVE that it happens without direct evidence. Thus can't be called science. Interesting idea but don't try and pass it off as something which can be verified in any way.


Back on topic,

I got to see Ben Stein do a lecture at IU. He's not funny anymore, just irritating. He didn't really try to say anything, just sat there and alternated between jabbering about nothing and the way the country should be.

[ghostofdavid]

When Greeks and Romans discussed the way things worked, philosophy and science were married to an extent that most modern thinkers think as "bad critical theory." If you take the fathers of most philosophical movements, you'll notice that all of them were just as active in science as well as philosophy or religion. Aristotle was proficient at the classical sense of physics as well as the metaphysics. Gregor Johann Mendel was a monk who started the field of genetics so that others could springboard from his simple gardening techniques.

Science and philosophy/religion seem most appropriate to view the entire world from. Science answers the question of how and metaphysics answer the question of "why the hell do we/should we care?".

From this, I can conclude that a scientific discussion (as modern people understand it) cannot prove or disprove the evidence of a god or godlike being because the question isn't being asked in an appropriate manner. Science doesn't ask the question of god, so you would be hard pressed to find an answer for it. If you take an essence that is by definition a metaphysical entity, it makes as much logical sense as trying to "prove" why Edgar Allen Poe was such an amazing author and then attempting to use mathematics as the series of proofs to show why he was a good author.

Anyone who is offended by a bumper sticker, billboard, news program, t-shirt or other modern medium of "expression" (and I use that term loosely) should all partake in an easy exercise of self-restraint and the calming of the passions. Take your neck and should muscles and look away! This goes for both sides of the argument. Don't like a Crass band shirt that says Jesus Died for His Sins and Not Mine? Look away! Don't like it when someone has an airbrushed hat that says HOOKED ON JESUS? Look away! No one is "assaulting your senses" but expressing their own identity. Let's all be adults about both sides of perspectives and just look away if something bothers you. I love the first amendment and the right to be wrong.

r1v3th3ad's girlfriend: Thank you for sharing your opinions on the discussion, you might want to create your own account and go from there so that we don't see you two as a symbiotic entity. It takes maybe 2 minutes and an email address to start an account. I appreciate your insight and explanation to the "inside thinking" of the Christian worldview that you seem to have. Even if I disagree, I can do so politely.

John Stuart Mill: I appreciate your well thought out argument and a picture from the Miller-Urey experiment. It reminds me of a hookah. Isn't there controversy (of course...) surrounding the Miller-Urey experiment because of the environment used to create the basic amino acid not mimic what is thought to be the atmosphere for primordial conditions of the earth? It had something to do with oxygen or ammonia or something. Also 100 internet points to you for referencing Bad Religion's frontman as they are one of my favorite punk bands.

It is my observation that the origins of man and life in general is a topic that is rarely touched on in an objective manner. A doctorate theorist in support of evolution is in a band named Bad Religion. He obviously has strong opinions on the issues of religion. I would be hard pressed to believe that that did not carry over into science.

Likewise, to the uncritical Christian who believes that evolution is dumb because the person who presented them with the idea didn't share his theological opinion.

Because the questions of "how did we get here/where did we come from" are so close to "what does it all mean/what is the purpose" are so close together, it seems nearly impossible to discuss the issue because answer/side has such serious consequences.

[St. Goodypants]

uhhh....

I've kinda gotta disagree with one point there david.

The church lost control gradually over creative ideas and science during a period of time called the Renaissance It was a big time, you remember? Lots of cool paintings, ideas, etc. came out of that madness. I think that that demonstrates that (that???) science, philosophy, and mysticism are pretty damn seperate. Nothing can prove the existence of a god, that's called faith.


Other than that, I'll agree with your points.

Damn... drunk posting in this thread might not be the best idea...

I'm doing it anyway!

[ghostofdavid]

I'm not really sure what you mean...

The Renaissance wasn't much more than the rebirth of the classics rehashed by European minds. Martin Luther translates the Bible into German as a humanistic effort. Copernicus and Galileo are remapping the way people thought about planets and their revolutions. Humanism is seen through an explicitly theistic worldview by Erasmus, Zwingli and others. The Renaissance idea that every man has value springs to life from theism, not from a lack of theism. Thomas More is considered as the "Christian" Renaissance humanist. Andreas Vesalius began researching the workings of the human body by dissecting cadavers (google his drawings, they are amazing) and saw his work as the work of God.

But we can always agree to disagree!

[St. Goodypants]

I think that I was saying that the church lost it's place in science.

Current church policies seem to prove it.

Stagnation led to separation, a loss of control. Modern developments are hindered by the church, regardless of whether or not it is a moral decision.


dunno... Like I said, I was drunk when I posted that.

Besides, I've never had a very high opinion of many philosophers. It's my personal opinion that most of the things that they try to discuss are best figured out on a personal level, and that quoting someone else's opinion on it is useless because it's going to be different for you.

This seems off topic a lil' bit.

[r1v3th3ad]

I think that I was saying that the church lost it's place in science.

Current church policies seem to prove it.

Stagnation led to separation, a loss of control. Modern developments are hindered by the church, regardless of whether or not it is a moral decision.


dunno... Like I said, I was drunk when I posted that.

Besides, I've never had a very high opinion of many philosophers. It's my personal opinion that most of the things that they try to discuss are best figured out on a personal level, and that quoting someone else's opinion on it is useless because it's going to be different for you.

This seems off topic a lil' bit.

I from what I hear from my family, my grandfather was a great philosopher...he was an Irish drunk, every payday he took the check straight to the bar when he got outta the mill...when told to do something, like quit drinking, he would sit in his chair, rub his beard, and ask "Why"

[St. Goodypants]

Aye. 'tis a sad state of affairs t'be questin' in such an odd manner.

[Sonthert]

Religion=Santa Claus

Essentially you are believing in a a fictitious character who is supported by nothing more than indirect evidence (i.e. On Christmas morning, there are gifts that arrived through a presence I don't understand...they are supposed to be from Santa). Do you believe in Santa? Only if you are 12, 122 or cracked in the brainpan...god is the same way...you see gifts and assume its from "him" because people around you tell you the gifts are from him...there is no evidence to disprove the lack of evidence of Santa...any more than there is evidence to disprove god, the Loch Ness Monster or Luke Skywalker.

Edit:Chris: The non-theists of the world look at religious propositions skeptically (to be polite), in reality, we see religion as a con game, the suckers who believe in them deserve to get took. Man has existed long before Christianity. We felt love, compassion, got married had children. All the essential functions of biology..and all of a sudden we're supposed to bend over and believe in the bible? Ha! A bunch of second rate telemarketing at best...

Quick Edit 2:I love Ben Stein! On the other hand, somebody can be very educated and very wrong at the same time (Example...Tycho Brahe, Ptolemy...to name a few astronomers...)

Edited June 6, 2008 by Sonthert