removing chemicals from foil?

[HookahDuck]

I was thinking... everyone says that foil is bad for you supposedly
because of the chemicals that it is threated with, which burn off while
you are smoking.



Firstly, I find this hard to believe. I have not found any research
which suggests the presence of these chemicals exist. We are using FOOD
grade tinfoil. How could it be sold for use in the preparation of food,
if it emits chemicals when it is exposed to flame?(After all, that is
an advertised use... such as barbeque'ing).


Either way... just to be onthe safe side. What if one were to expose a
few sheets of tinfoil to open flame for a certain length of time,
before it used with a hookah? The majority of the chemicals which are
supposedly present, that you inhale- would be burned off.




Orrrrr... I could just practice with my screen. (I hate that damn thing...)

Anyway, thoughts?

[yashman19]

I too have thought about things like this. Haven't you guys seen that
commercial for reanolds wrap where the ladies are wraping up chicken in
foil and bbqing it? Wouldn't the chemicals maybe burn off onto the food?

Or it may be different in that the fumes are burning up into the air
which is different from inhaling the fumes from the hookah...I'm
confused and don't know, but yes. I would think that the govt wouldnt
let such a product exist for consumers to use with food if it had any
chance of releasing harmful chemicals in any way to the consumer...

I too wish there were more studies done. Ohh well, back to hookah...

[HookahDuck]

Maybe its just the conservative in me... but this is exactly why agencies like the FDA exist.

Maybe I'll go ask one of my old chemistry professors about this =)

[mushrat]

I Think you guys are givng too much credit to the FDA to protect us...don't ask how many rat droppings can be present in a given processed food, you don't want to know the answer, but there are rules about it by the FDA.
(ok i have to post this: [url="http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dalbook.html"]http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dalbook.html[/url] )
As for the chemicals on the foil debate...
I'd noticed something very interesting now and then when I still used foil, I'd hit the foil with my torch now and then, and the metal would look like it disappeared leaving a clear layer behind. So i got up and tried it just now, after hitting the foil with my torch for a few seconds, it LOOKS like the foil is just discoloured, but if I hold it up to a light, I can see right through it like a fine mesh screen. Someone else with a butane torch wanna try this for confirmation. I'll dig out my camera and see if I can't take a picture tomorrow...if I can find the box it's packed it.
Also, much of the issue about foil has been the fact that we are using aluminium, which itself has been tied in some way/form with such pleasant things as alzheimers.

[yashman19]

Well I took the liberty in helping out the experiement mush suggested.
Here are my pictures of foil being torched by a Propane torch:

This is a picture after being torched, with the flash.
[img]http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8887/img21016zz.jpg[/img]

This is a picture with the flash turned off, with a light in the back next to my racquetball racket.
[img]http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6899/img21037wx.jpg[/img]

And finally, with the flash off with my head behind it. You can see an outline of my head.
[img]http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1097/img21047ly.jpg[/img]

Any idea what this means Mush? Or was it just something you noticed on accident?

[mushrat]

Ah..there we go. Nice pictures Yashman!
I have NO fricking idea what it means, But it makes you wonder doesn't it? It was just an observation I'd made a while back that I didn't think much more about until this latest foil discussion. I'll ask around, know a metalurgist or two and a few chemists. In the mean time I'll stick with my screen thank you very much.
Some of you foil users, check you foil after a good long session and see if it has the same effect going on.
 

[HookahDuck]

hmm... I definatly have to ask a chem professor about this

[mushrat]

I found this site...
[url="http://www.world-aluminium.org/applications/packaging/index.html"] [url="http://www.world-aluminium.org/applications/packaging/index"]http://www.world-aluminium.org/application...packaging/index[/url][/url]. html
Put in a question to their ask us a question area, both about coatings on household foils and why it turns into a mesh when heat is applied. Who knows if they will bother to answer, but the search continues...I love a good challenge.
 

[Sonthert]

Whoa, whoa people going a little crazy here, Aluminum has a fairly low
melting point, a forced pressure torch (like a pressurized butane
lighter, or a blow torch) could probably do some damage. A Mapp gas
torch even more so. Normal charcoal burns at a MUCH lower temperature,
than any of these, yes some carbon buildup or partial melting of the
aluminum may occur, but the experiment is far too extreme to tell
anything, the differences in temperature (between a torch and the
temperature that charcoal normally burns at) are probably 300-400
degrees.

As a side point, they used to make cans out of steel and "solder" it
with lead. Acidic fruits like tomatoes would "eat" into the lead if the
can sat around for a year or two and contaminate the food with lead.
This practice was banned and now cans are lead-free. In a like sense
lead foil and real tin foil used to be used and now they are not,
because both are poisonous. The safer replacement? Aluminum foil. Some
people still call it erroneously, tin foil.

Say what you will about the FDA, the "D"rug  part may suck, but
the "F"ood part has their Sh*t together. They, in fact, are more
paranoid and obsessive about things than is reasonable. The laws for
flavorings, some of which are used in shisha are far more restrictive
in the US than in Europe/Middle East. Are we safer?  Maybe a
little. If aluminum foil is for sale for heating up to 400-500 degrees,
then it is, by current standards, safe.

[jmexx]

Yeah, I've heard that too tangiers. Charcoal cannot dispense enough heat to release any toxic chemicals, not into our systems anyways.Jon

[mushrat]

Tangier: you are correct, the "experiment" was hardly scientific by any means. But it does bring up a few interesting observations and provide some food for thought. Thats why I ask folks to look at their good long sessions to see if there is any observable change in the foil. Stiffness? discoloration?see through patches?
Do you have any idea why the mesh effect is happening? If it was simply melting the aluminium it SHOULD just melt and run. What's making it hold its shape and appearance, but become partially transparent? Its almost as if part of the foil is vaporizing leaving another part behind.
The question i put into that site bounced back as I'm not in a recognised domain or some such crap. I'll grant you our food may be safer than in some other places due to the FDA, but to think its SAFE? Thats wiushful thinking at best I think. Like every other agency thats bad for business, its budget is undoubtedly being slashed while its enforcement powers are being gutted. Just like the EPA and the "drug" part of the FDA.
Why do you think we've become living guinne pigs for so many drugs. Rush em to market with a list of warnings longer than the things its supposed to cure, then yank it when it turns out to be dangerous.
AHH..i feel better.

[Sonthert]

I said a little safer. I agree with your tone, we should be vigilant to
the gross abuse and laziness of government. Great leaders have warned
us Dwight Eisenhower warned of the possible infiltration of the
"Military Industrial Complex" into controlling government...DIck
Cheney? United Defense-Halliburton...?

The only thing I can think of...it is fascinating to me as a chemical
engineer...I don't know as much as a real chemist would (especially
inorganic effects). The only thing I can think of is that melting
requires a great deal of energy...like how long does it take ice to
melt. The aluminum may be refreezing into its fundamental crystal
lattice structure (I'll look it up). Like Ice ferns on window glass in
winter...or like how if you put three or four ice cubes in a glass of
liquid they sometimes "melt" together, sticking to each other.
Sometimes melting is assoiated with nearly simultaneous refreezing, if
the temperature is fairly near the melting point. Try a Mapp gas torch,
if you can and see what that does. I'll look up the crystal geometry of
aluminum.

[Donkeema]

let me have ago - ill ask my school teacher  !!. Mr conlon might know, but thats a excellent idea ! never thought of it. the second picture scared me !

[thebastard]

Mr Conlon lol. The guys a weirdo. Does he still keep wearing that waist-coat as if hes a snooker player?

Do ask him though, we'll see what he has to say about it. You probably
won't get your question answered as he might just waffle some crap
about "the combustion of coal producing a heat at an approximate temp
causing certain aluminium particles within the foil to possibly
disintegrate itself into smoke. However it depends upon many factors
including the exact temp reached, type of foil etc. etc. waffle. blah.
blah"

What the hell he might even get you to do some coursework on it!

[mushrat]

Tangiers: I used butane and Yash used propane, i can't see mapp and propane being that different...but I'm no expert. It could be melting and recrystalizing at the same time i guess, I held my torch on the same spot a good long time and couldn't get a burn through...the plot sickens.
I trust my government, really I do..to do otherwise is unpatriotic..haven't you been reading the news.

[yashman19]

Isn't mapp gas more flammable than propane? I remember when I was at
home depot, propane tanks are like 1.99, mapp gas was 2.99 and oxygen
was 3.99, and I can't quite remember but I think as you went up, the
more dangerous the stuff became. So I'm not sure propane is all that
similar to mapp.

[mushrat]

hmm...well...ok..said i wasn't sure....how about the actual heat produced by them?
Besides, we still havent heard from foil smokers looking at their foil after an actual session. In terms of actual relivence to hookah smoking, we really only need to worry about results at the level of heat produced by the charcaol we use right?
but i STILL wanna know what the heck is going on using the torches

[raversparadise]

interesting study guys... well done!!!
 
i like to believe that the foil i use is safe

[Soup]

I asked my old chem teacher about this.  He said that it's just a restructuring of the particles into the mesh pattern due to the heat.

[mushrat]

can you ask him why its not simply melting and running off?

[Sonthert]

Like I said, its like ice crystals...the ice melts on a warm window and
recrystalizes into an ice fern. whether its aluminum at 800+ degrees or
water at 32 degrees, the phase change (solid-liquid-solid) is similar,
chemically.

Besides, even if it is true...the water in the jar will capture it, or at least reflux it back to solid aluminum.

Mapp gas is, I believe, propane with hydrogen...burns hotter for really big plumbing jobs.

I looked at the collection of foil from my customers, from last night,
and the foil all seems normal...I use heavy duty foil. Thinner foil may
have more of this effect.

[mushrat]

am oldie but a goodie...

[Bye bye now have fun]

you just revived a 3.5 year old post...

[Sonthert]

Geez, what was that like my 9th and 10th posts?

[Sariél]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I just held up my used foil to the light and its full of holes. Little ones the size of a toothpick or the poker on my tongs! It almost looks like a patter...

Oh. Uh, wait, never mind.