Lebanon...

[oolatec]

Here we go again... Ugh...

[boulderkid303]

My dad lives in beirut. I was going to go to the american university for summer school. Its a shame this shit happens. Its awful. My dad said he could hear rounds upon rounds of gun shots last night.

[oolatec]

Uuugh... prayers that your father stays safe and out of trouble while stuck in the middle of all of this... Unfortunately I think Hezbullah got just what they wanted... that's why they are acting up now... they bought time hence were able to smuggle in more weapons. Now that they feel they have enough, it's time to keep pushing.

Please keep us updated re: your father.

[boulderkid303]

I will keep you up to date. On the other hand its been like this forever. This keeps on happening. One of the biggest things about this that pisses me off is that hezbollah is being called a terrorist group. People just need to remember if it werent for them Beirut would be demolished.

[oolatec]

I will keep you up to date. On the other hand its been like this forever. This keeps on happening. One of the biggest things about this that pisses me off is that hezbollah is being called a terrorist group. People just need to remember if it werent for them Beirut would be demolished.

Well... if it weren't for them, that recent "war" would have never happened to begin with...

And I just came across this... not sure what to think of it, since it is an Iranian source:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=54916...ionid=351020203

AQ to the "rescue"? Ughhhhhhhhhh.

[Johnny_D]

I will keep you up to date. On the other hand its been like this forever. This keeps on happening. One of the biggest things about this that pisses me off is that hezbollah is being called a terrorist group. People just need to remember if it werent for them Beirut would be demolished.

They are though. No different to the IRA not so long ago.

[TheScotsman]

I will keep you up to date. On the other hand its been like this forever. This keeps on happening. One of the biggest things about this that pisses me off is that hezbollah is being called a terrorist group. People just need to remember if it werent for them Beirut would be demolished.

They are though. No different to the IRA not so long ago.

A little difference... the IRA was funded by American "hibernian society" wankers.

[gaia.plateau]

I will keep you up to date. On the other hand its been like this forever. This keeps on happening. One of the biggest things about this that pisses me off is that hezbollah is being called a terrorist group. People just need to remember if it werent for them Beirut would be demolished.

They are though. No different to the IRA not so long ago.

They are recognized internationally as a legitimate state government... which makes them no more "terrorists" (such a silly and inaccurate word) than the majority of state governments around the world. Assessing Hezbollah as a terrorist organization from our Western-Centric viewing point, applying Western-Centric principles and biases, is not going to give us a better understanding of the situation. Hezbollah was a terrorist group, if you really want to use that word, but so were the "founding fathers" of the United States. Hypocrisy is antithetical to discovery.

The proper term to use for groups like Al Qaeda, the IRA, the LRA, FARC, the FLQ, etc. etc. is "Informal Violence Organization", which covers any militant group which is not internationally recognized as a legitimate user of force, or in other words, a state. And states, in the global context, are really nothing more than "Formal Violence Organizations".

Hezbollah was democratically elected in an observed, free and fair election; they may have been an IVO before, but they are not one now.

What should really be the core issue in this, in my perception, is why states are still considered legitimate users of force and how to rectify this. Edited May 11, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[oolatec]

Not using Western-centric ideals when I call them a terrorist organization with a clear conscious. Judge them by their actions inside and outside Lebanon.

-----

Any updates from your father?

[gaia.plateau]

Not using Western-centric ideals when I call them a terrorist organization with a clear conscious. Judge them by their actions inside and outside Lebanon.

Which actions are you referring to? Please qualify your presumption with an answer to this question: do you consider your own government to be a terrorist organization?

[Johnny_D]

Gaia, Don't start all this crap again. People are entitled to there opinion even if YOU think they are wrong.
If we need a Devil's Advocate, we'll call one. Edited May 12, 2008 by Johnny_D

[oolatec]

Not using Western-centric ideals when I call them a terrorist organization with a clear conscious. Judge them by their actions inside and outside Lebanon.

Which actions are you referring to? Please qualify your presumption with an answer to this question: do you consider your own government to be a terrorist organization?

Was the IRA a terrorist organization? They are pretty much doing to Lebanon what the IRA was doing to Ireland, but on a much larger scale. Just ask the Druze.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080511/ts_nm/lebanon_dc

Hezbollah gunmen battled supporters of the government on Sunday on the fifth day of a campaign by the Iranian-backed group that has dealt a severe blow to Washington's allies in Lebanon.

But as far as specific actions by Hezbullah? '83... launching rockets from populated civilian areas... intentionally putting innocents in danger... invading Israel and kidnapping two of their soldiers... assassination of members of parliament... and all sorts of kumbaya-esque things all throughout Lebanon.

Now I await your inevitable comparison of said Hezbullah's actions to the actions of the United States Military... in a vain attempt to equate the two.

Any militaristic group acting contrary to their Government in an attempt to overthrow said Government through violent means is a terrorist organization.

[gaia.plateau]

Gaia, Don't start all this crap again. People are entitled to there opinion even if YOU think they are wrong.
If we need a Devil's Advocate, we'll call one.

So some people are allowed to express their opinions, and others aren't? Or is it that some opinions are allowed to be expressed, and others aren't?

[boulderkid303]

Gaia is right. I back him up 100% on his views.

[gaia.plateau]

Was the IRA a terrorist organization? They are pretty much doing to Lebanon what the IRA was doing to Ireland, but on a much larger scale. Just ask the Druze.

The IRA was an Informal Violence Organization, yes. The difference is that Hezbollah is the freely elected government. Either defend democracy or admit that you only pretend to, you can't have it both ways (referring to all Westerners that think this way, not just you).

Now I await your inevitable comparison of said Hezbullah's actions to the actions of the United States Military... in a vain attempt to equate the two.

Any militaristic group acting contrary to their Government in an attempt to overthrow said Government through violent means is a terrorist organization.

If you fully expect my response to be vain and futile, it means that you've already closed your mind and arrogantly decided your position on the matter. So this raises two questions: 1) why do you want me to answer you, and 2) why should I? These questions aside, it's pretty easy to satisfy your request for comparison, so I will.

Hezbollah was a violent "terrorist" organization before becoming the elected Lebanese government. So were the founding fathers of the United States, who were a militaristic group acting contrary to their government in an attempt to overthrow said government through violent means. They became the freely elected government, and ceased to be a "terrorist" organization. Similarly to Hezbollah. I thought that I already alluded to this quite clearly.

JD you can feel free to delete this post if you feel that the opinion expressed or the expresser is contrary to the spirit of this hookah-discussion forum. Edited May 12, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[Johnny_D]

Gaia is right. I back him up 100% on his views.

Congraultations - It's not his views that piss people off - it's this constant 'Justfitcation of everything you say' Every damn topic has been dragged into a 'Look how clever I am' for Gaia.

Pointless and unwelcome.

[boulderkid303]

JD im not trying be an asshole, all im saying is I agree with his point and only his point, whatever u 2 got going on isnt what I was commenting on. I like his view. And Id really love if all this fussing could stop and we could keep focus on the real point at hand that at this moment people are losing there lives no reason!

Gaia is right. I back him up 100% on his views.

Congraultations - It's not his views that piss people off - it's this constant 'Justfitcation of everything you say' Every damn topic has been dragged into a 'Look how clever I am' for Gaia.

Pointless and unwelcome.

[gaia.plateau]

Gaia is right. I back him up 100% on his views.

Congraultations - It's not his views that piss people off - it's this constant 'Justfitcation of everything you say' Every damn topic has been dragged into a 'Look how clever I am' for Gaia.

Pointless and unwelcome.

So... I'm not allowed to discuss an issue with someone because you think I'm trying to be clever?

It's one thing for someone to self-delude and convince themself of something by ignoring rationality and evidence... it's another to do it in virtual public in a challenging way. You can wish, but you can't expect that everyone with different perceptions to simply bow to your view or simply walk away, and I think it's unfair to insult me just because we disagree on something, especially when as a moderator it's your responsibility to maintain an atmosphere of fairness and openness, this being a discussion forum.

Gaia, Don't start all this crap again.

To address this in more depth: I think I can safely assume that you're referring to the thread concerning Hezbollah's declaration of war against Israel. I didn't bring up the issue of incredibly unjust discrimination against Muslim people by Westerners then, and I didn't do it now. If the HookahForum mods want to depoliticize this forum or simply avoid the issue of Muslim discrimination, they should stop igniting the powderkeg.

They are though. [A terrorist organization].

It's not his views that piss people off - it's this constant 'Justfitcation of everything you say' Every damn topic has been dragged into a 'Look how clever I am' for Gaia.

You mean that one topic, that one time? Who are these people that I'm pissing off? You can read our private messages, right? Even deleted ones? Do a bit of digging and you'll find a dozen or so from people who have appreciated my defending perhaps unpopular positions. I've never received a single message from anyone suggesting that I pissed them off.

Gaia, Don't start all this crap again.

...unwelcome.

Are you making this demand as a moderator, or as a friend? I'm going to bed now, at any rate. Edited May 12, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[oolatec]

Gaia, Don't start all this crap again. People are entitled to there opinion even if YOU think they are wrong.
If we need a Devil's Advocate, we'll call one.

So some people are allowed to express their opinions, and others aren't? Or is it that some opinions are allowed to be expressed, and others aren't?

Nowhere did I say you could not express your opinions... all I am saying is that your opinions are rather predictable, that's all..

And how is Hezbullah the freely elected Government of Lebanon? Why, according to Reuters, are they fighting and killing pro-government supporters?

[oolatec]

And I beg to ask... what business does Syria have getting involved with the internal goings-on in Lebanon? What about Lebanon's sovereignty?

A minor clash broke out at dawn between government supporters and Hezbollah-allied pro-Syrian gunmen in the busy Hamra district, security officials said on condition of anonymity, also because they were not authorized to speak to the media. Two cameramen for Al-Jazeera television, who arrived at the scene to cover the shooting, were lightly wounded and briefly hospitalized, the channel said.

Why is Hezbullah doing all of this if they are the "duly elected Lebanese Government"?