Important Message

[mushrat]

quite the opposite...we ARENT so desperate for people advertising their businesses that we will allow them to do so without being a regular part of the community.

[cymptom]

I'm not really sure exactly what you mean. We're not talking about allowing vendors to post banners and run advertisements on the sidebar of the website -- of course nobody wants that. But I know that there are a lot of people who would like to know when there are sales, or when new products are in development, or when they become available.

If the concern is merely building up the hookah community, I think that allowing vendors to post freely in a designated area does just that. Talk about vendors and product availability is a significant part of discussing hookah lifestyle, and I think that giving vendors the opportunity to inform consumers is beneficial to the community -- but only if the vendors are segregated in a way that also informs consumers of their affiliation and potential bias. Vendors CAN'T be a part of the regular community -- they are involved in the business and will always have a self-interest that can affect their participation in one way or another.

[mushrat]

I'm not really sure exactly what you mean. We're not talking about allowing vendors to post banners and run advertisements on the sidebar of the website -- of course nobody wants that. But I know that there are a lot of people who would like to know when there are sales, or when new products are in development, or when they become available.

If the concern is merely building up the hookah community, I think that allowing vendors to post freely in a designated area does just that. Talk about vendors and product availability is a significant part of discussing hookah lifestyle, and I think that giving vendors the opportunity to inform consumers is beneficial to the community -- but only if the vendors are segregated in a way that also informs consumers of their affiliation and potential bias. Vendors CAN'T be a part of the regular community -- they are involved in the business and will always have a self-interest that can affect their participation in one way or another.

i must disagree that all vendors cant help but post in their self interest. most of them also smoke and can add from their personal experiences, what flavours they like, what hookahs they have, what video games they play, what music they listen to, lots of things. The proof is MN and tangiers, and bubba and a lot of vendors whohave managed.

[bubbascigars]

Myself Currently have not been able to post because I just landed a e-waste recycling contract with a major school disrtict and have 1500 complete computers to recycle I am slammed beyond belief.

but my 2 censt is that I am cool with all vendors and agree with mushrat that as a poster we must contribute to the board because that is what the board is for for everyone to share knowledge on the hookah subject.
later all

bubba

[liquidglass]

I'm not really sure exactly what you mean. We're not talking about allowing vendors to post banners and run advertisements on the sidebar of the website -- of course nobody wants that. But I know that there are a lot of people who would like to know when there are sales, or when new products are in development, or when they become available.

If the concern is merely building up the hookah community, I think that allowing vendors to post freely in a designated area does just that. Talk about vendors and product availability is a significant part of discussing hookah lifestyle, and I think that giving vendors the opportunity to inform consumers is beneficial to the community -- but only if the vendors are segregated in a way that also informs consumers of their affiliation and potential bias. Vendors CAN'T be a part of the regular community -- they are involved in the business and will always have a self-interest that can affect their participation in one way or another.

None of your arguments have followed a logical track so I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this.


people post about their products in the vendor thread...with an account that is for their business.


They can also participate in normal discussion because seeing as how they are vendors they probably have more experience with hookahs than some of the members here.

Your arguement is assuming the fact that they'll be posting what to buy and where to buy it every chance they get rather than just giving good advice. Sure they're biased, but so are you and everyone else. Everyone has their own self interest. But at the same time they wouldn't be selling their products if they didn't believe they were the best would they?
You're acting like the vendors would be trying to trick everyone into buying their products or doing business with them. Personally I see the vendors as participating and we judge who to do business with based on seeing the 'non-buisness' side of them. Is it that hard to grasp?

It's their personal participation in the forums that allows us as consumers to actually appreciate a vendor and their personality.

[cymptom]

I'm not saying that they can't make contributions that aren't in their self interest -- I'm saying that they can make contributions that are in their self interest and almost inevitably will to some degree or another. Some vendors want to be personally involved with the forum, but some don't or don't have the time -- and by excluding them for this reason I think the community loses some valuable resources. Say Tangiers were to become too busy to continue as an active member of the forum (..... ) -- does this mean we should ban him entirely rather than let him pop in every so often to let us know what new flavors are on the way?

When I say that vendors can't be a part of the community, I'm acknowledging that they don't have the same set of interests as someone who's not involved in the business. And keep in mind that I'm doing this in response to the administration's apparent concern with vendor involvement (it'd be fine by me if we simply a] implemented a feature that titles vendors in the same way that premium members and mods are titled, and b] allowed vendors to participate in the vendor section no matter what their involvement in discussion). I'm not suggesting that vendors are going to be using their personal involvement with the forum to consciously trick people -- I'm just saying that their opinions and contributions to the forum have the potential to be self-interested, and if we're going to crack down on vendors it should be by addressing this issue rather than requiring them to participate. Marketing takes place on many levels, and for a vendor to participate in discussion as encouraged by the forum rules is likely to benefit their business even more than if they had banners running on the top of the screen. But if a vendor doesn't want to be totally active on the forum and is forced to in order to continue promoting their business, how does that benefit the community?

I know it makes things more simple to think of vendors as having two distinct sides -- business and non-business -- but in reality it's not that simple. The two are a part of each other and rely on each other. Some vendors will make an effort to abstain from putting their on slant on things and some won't. But if we're talking about setting up absolute rules to minimize the amount of vendor bias floating around the forums, it's not good enough to simply say that vendors *can* participate without self-interest.

[liquidglass]

I understand that you're saying they will make self interest comments etc, but so does everyone else. I would think everyone on the forums is of high enough intelligence to differenciate between them really pushing their business or if they're honestly just giving advice.


If they aren't contributing to the non-vendor side of the forums: they aren't a resource.
If I want to find out the new flavors I can sign up for emails or check their website if I care that much.


Outside of the vendor thread I would say 70% (from what i've seen) or more of vendors post have NOTHING to do with products, theirs or others.

example if someone asks: "why is my smoke so harsh?" a vendor could just say...well it's the coals blah blah blah.

I can't decide if you're super paranoid that we'll get advertised to all the time or if you feel like the vendors are devil spawn.

WHO SAID vendors have two sides? Yes talking on the forums is benefiting their business, so why wouldn't they want to participate?
But if they don't want to participate (benefit their business) then the admin is just taking it one step further and giving them an option.

They aren't forcing anyone to talk or leave, they're giving them a choice and I'm sure they ask them to talk more than once or twice.

[liquidglass]

maybe it's just me but I don't see this being that difficult to process in your head. Everyone has a self interest, duh. But Everyone also has a personality, participation allows us to see their personality.

[NickReppinThe909]

Zensilk it goes a little deeper than just 'last post'

Not everything is made public, maybe you could just accept the reasoning?

When did you start channeling Dick Cheney?

"Because I said so" should NEVER be an explanation to anyone above the age of 5.

I just want to go on record to say that I think the vendor policy is wrong, and much too strict. I miss the Mya product announcements, and being a cheap lazy bastard, I like hearing about discounts without having to look for them. I also think that hookalife's post was not an attack on the forum, but a rational, logical message explaining why he would not be here anymore and expressing his frustration over what he (and I) think is a misguided policy that hurts the forum.

Keep banning topics and vendors, and we're going to end up with a forum full of "Today I ordered 50g of tobacco and a grommet", r1v3th745d's fascination with bodily excretions, and ban notices.

Behind the scenes must count for something, else our own mod, Sonthert (dba Tangiers) would be off for lack of participation. Note: I am NOT suggesting his banishment.

I also believe that ice buckets work and that when the shisha touches the foil it burns, gets harsh, and makes me cough up a lung. But those deserve their own topics.

... and that women should be put on a pedestal just high enough to see up their skirts.

thanks?

thats a low blow bro i for one love rivetheads brand of humor it can make me laugh during a shitty day and thats priceless lol but there are some dumb "i just ordered" posts like that IMO unless your dropping mad duckets on a purchase or honestly want opinons we dont need to know about it

[TheScotsman]

By the time I got through their "farewell" post I almost felt insulted by it! It was a bloody childish whining rant, likely aimed at trying to pimp the forum for one last free advertisement, and nothing more. Nothing is lamer than self-martyrdom, except maybe whining about it. If they agreed to a set of rules when they joined as vendors, then that is what the need to live up to, if they can't fulfil their obligation, then that is their own fault.

For some reason, I just don't believe Mush would be randomly picking on them without a forewarning, nor that he would have imposed a ban if they showed even the slightest interest in being around.

I agree with it 100% (as if that has any bearing on anything.)

[mushrat]

As the last few people have pointed out and some of the rest aren't paying attention to..the bottom line is vendors were given a set of guidlines they agreed to follow to be able to post as vendors. Just as the rest of you have guidlines you agreed to to be able to post. You agreed to not talk about illegal stuff unless it's in a certain context, you agreed to be civil, you agreed to everythign in the forum rules when you signed up. When you break the rules you get warnings or in some cases temporary or perma bans.

If the vendors didn't like the conditions that they were going to be allowed to advertise, then they shouldn't have agreed to follow those rules. Period. The discussion isn't whether the rules are fair or are in the vendors best interests, or anythign like that, the issue is at the time they had their threads created they AGREED to the terms. You can't then post your advertisements, use the resources of the forum, THEN decide you don't like the conditions you agreed to. Life doesnt work that way. And neither does the forum.
No one forced the vendors to aaccept the rules, they decided agreeing to participate in the general health and growth of the forum by posting non-business related stuff was worth being able to post their advertisements. If they later decide it isn't worth the effort, then they don't get to still advertise. Simple and the choice is the VENDORS, not the admins.

[Bulldog_916]

This forum is always going to be free advertising even if the vendors themselves arent on here. They are called reviews and fanboys. Every time someone posts a stunning review of Neal, MNH, HS, Nazar, whatever, in the general discussion board, that is free advertising. When people ask "where should I go to get A, B and C??" someone is going to give up some free advertising by even responding to the question. I've already voiced that I dont particularly like the brand of discipline being shown here. But whatever. 90% of us know who the good and the bad in vendors are.

[Ralleac]

This forum is always going to be free advertising even if the vendors themselves arent on here. They are called reviews and fanboys. Every time someone posts a stunning review of Neal, MNH, HS, Nazar, whatever, in the general discussion board, that is free advertising. When people ask "where should I go to get A, B and C??" someone is going to give up some free advertising by even responding to the question. I've already voiced that I dont particularly like the brand of discipline being shown here. But whatever. 90% of us know who the good and the bad in vendors are.

True. To be honest, though, I am glad that most of the vendor advertising on this forum comes straight from the mouths of the customers. There are other forums that are great examples of what happens when vendors are given the same freedoms as the regular community, and I'd rather avoid seeing that happen here anytime soon.

[mushrat]

This forum is always going to be free advertising even if the vendors themselves arent on here. They are called reviews and fanboys. Every time someone posts a stunning review of Neal, MNH, HS, Nazar, whatever, in the general discussion board, that is free advertising. When people ask "where should I go to get A, B and C??" someone is going to give up some free advertising by even responding to the question. I've already voiced that I dont particularly like the brand of discipline being shown here. But whatever. 90% of us know who the good and the bad in vendors are.

Ah..but the difference when YOU say buy from X and when X says buy from us is that YOU are participating in the general discussion, which is the idea in the fiorst place, people talking about their own personal experiences. AND incase you missed it, likely because we jump on it fairly quickly, companies that push their wares all over the other parts of the forum soon get in trouble too...as with 2 of our favrite banned and censored sites.

And you STILL are missing the bloody point and *I* am getting tired of repeating it for some of you stuck on the wrong thing. To have posted here in the first place the VENDORS agreed to a certain set of rules. Read my messege a few up for a full rant. The issue here is not the fairness of the rules, just that they agreed to follow them when they posted. Clear and simple.

Does anyoen who is actually getting the point here have anything new to add?

[Johnny_D]

Yah. You pointed it out earlier and everyone skipped over it.

This vendor found the time to make there final decrying, matryed post... It takes 10 mins a day to participate.

Tarik & Ramsey manage it and those boys are also up to there ass. I manage it and my life is going to hell. Mushrat manages it at Admin level and runs a bar and works 18hr days.

Personally this thread, once again, has made me wonder why I bother to try around here.

[mushrat]

And to top it off, I didn't her any of you complaining about the rule when it was first posted way back when...THEN woul dhave been the time to voice your opinions on the fairness of the vendor rules...of course, that would have meant you all actually READ all the rules....

You didn't kick then, a little late to kick now.

[cymptom]

I understand that you're saying they will make self interest comments etc, but so does everyone else. I would think everyone on the forums is of high enough intelligence to differenciate between them really pushing their business or if they're honestly just giving advice.

It's not always a matter of intelligence, because people who are new to the forum might not be aware of a member's business affiliations. And it's not always possible to separate advice from self promotion. If the manufacturer of tobacco A talks down on the quality of tobacco B, is he doing it because he actually believes his tobacco is higher quality, or because he wants to promte his product? Or perhaps he prefers his tobacco simply because he's proud of his product! There doesn't need to be any scheming involved, but at the same time there can be. With some vendors, it's ultimately impossible to know whether or not they are really here to benefit the community as a whole.

If they aren't contributing to the non-vendor side of the forums: they aren't a resource.
If I want to find out the new flavors I can sign up for emails or check their website if I care that much.

Can you show me any other place on the internet where hookah smokers can go and find a collection of up to date info releases from vendors all over the web, complete with (forum exclusive?) sales and discounts? How do we benefit from discouraging this?

I can't decide if you're super paranoid that we'll get advertised to all the time or if you feel like the vendors are devil spawn.

You must be one of those guys that makes fun of people who wear seatbelts. Just let me remind you that my main concern is maintaining a helpful vendor presence on the forum. I'm trying to come up with some conditions that would allow all vendors to contribute to the forum in a professional manner. I'm not content to just ban people when I think that they still might have something to offer. I also think that it's unwarranted bad publicity for a vendor if they are publicly banned from our community like this. Just because they don't want to be a "normal member" of the community doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the way they run their business.

WHO SAID vendors have two sides? Yes talking on the forums is benefiting their business, so why wouldn't they want to participate?
But if they don't want to participate (benefit their business) then the admin is just taking it one step further and giving them an option.

Well... you talked about vendors having a 'non-buisness side'. Wouldn't that imply that there is also a 'business side'? In any case... I think it's important to understand why some people, especially people who are busy running a business, wouldn't want to devote a lot of time to chatting on a forum. For some, it's just not their thing. But I don't see why that means we should keep them off the forum entirely.

Let me also say that I'm not trying to argue that HookahLife weren't in violation of the rules as they are. I just think that it's healthy to discuss the reasoning behind the rules themselves, even if I'm not right and the discussion makes people uncomfortable, which it seems to. My thanks to the mods for leaving the thread open this time -- I think discussions like this have great value, whether they end up acting to reinforce the rules as they are or to change them. Frequent critical re-examination of the way things work here can do nothing but benefit the forum.

[chromecarz00]

Some good points have been made in this thread. I think that it may be time to lock soon.
Rules are rules. But I think the fact that they have been brought so...quickly and harshly is what is being fought here. But whatever. I do think hookahlife did something nice by leaving a discount code, but I also think that they did act a martyr. They could have taken out time. And I think that if we put a more specific definition to the rule it would be better, rather than "participate and be a member. or else". a quota, a minimum times per month, something like that.
Im out. Laters

[cymptom]

Chrome, why do you say the thread should be locked if you find the discussion as interesting as you say? I don't see any disorderly conduct in this thread...

Also, I forgot to respond to this:

maybe it's just me but I don't see this being that difficult to process in your head. Everyone has a self interest, duh. But Everyone also has a personality, participation allows us to see their personality.

Of course everyone has their own bias, but you're missing the difference between the self interest of a consumer and the self interest of a business. My self interest would have me promote Tangiers tobacco, but that's because I love the product as a consumer and want to see it continue to flourish. But the self-interest of a business doesn't necessarily act as a contribution to the whole -- the point of a business is to make money. Sometimes they make money off of something that really is a great contribution to the community and worthy of public praise. Sometimes they make money pushing a product that does nothing to further the greater good (*cough* smiley's sexy shisha *cough*)...

[liquidglass]

But as far as I'm aware vendors do use their vendor account to speak of anything dealing with their products.

Like I said before, I wouldn't think anyone would sell something they didn't believe was in the highest quality. Maybe you finally got that, maybe you didn't, whatever the case, you repeated me.


Yes I can show you plenty of places

Vendor websites
vendor email updates
retailmenot.com

The forum is the primary attractor the vendor notices are axuliary.

Take your pick

HOW IS IT BEING DISCOURAGED? You're still making no sense at all. They agreed to participate or leave. It's that simple.



I actually personally enjoy wearing my seatbelt, it's saved my ass plenty of times.

Obviously you have trouble reading all the posts previous to yours. They were banned because there was no communication or attempt to correct their violation of the rules.

Yes it should reflect badly, do you want a vendor that agrees to something, then violates the agreement later on, showing they're flaky? NO, if you do there's more wrong with you than I thought.

I'm just glad you're not the one making descisions.


I understand where you got the "two sides" thing but speaking on behave of being a business person myself I can talk personally and professionally, even though they're connected.


They wouldn't "personally" be off the forums, just "professionally" see any of Mush's previous posts to see why.


If the rule was created then made retro active, I would say you have a valid point, but the fact is, it wasn't, so you don't.

Honestly, the only thing that makes me uncomfortable is your lack of ability to understand a simple rule and violation of said rule along with your unwillingness to accept that it's completely fair.

Being in the legal field I'm all for debating a point until I'm blue in the face, but at least make it a good point.

To advertise you always have a set of 'rules' to agree to. Be it money, product samples, or participation.

But if you're so concerned with a vendor or anyone for that matter being able to get free advertisement for the cost of nothing and letting them do what they want. Then set up a site exclusively for that.

Personally free advertising and bandwidth etc as a vendor is a sweet sweet deal for a little participation.

[liquidglass]

Chrome, why do you say the thread should be locked if you find the discussion as interesting as you say? I don't see any disorderly conduct in this thread...

Also, I forgot to respond to this:

maybe it's just me but I don't see this being that difficult to process in your head. Everyone has a self interest, duh. But Everyone also has a personality, participation allows us to see their personality.

Of course everyone has their own bias, but you're missing the difference between the self interest of a consumer and the self interest of a business. My self interest would have me promote Tangiers tobacco, but that's because I love the product as a consumer and want to see it continue to flourish. But the self-interest of a business doesn't necessarily act as a contribution to the whole -- the point of a business is to make money. Sometimes they make money off of something that really is a great contribution to the community and worthy of public praise. Sometimes they make money pushing a product that does nothing to further the greater good (*cough* smiley's sexy shisha *cough*)...

Oh trust me, I'm not missing that part. In fact the point I made is valid. Everyone has their own self interest, to make money, to survive, etc. You buy the shisha to keep it flourishing. You give free advertisment through participation because of your opinion, which may influence others to buy, THAT is what keeps something alive. Which sounds a lot like a vendor, that would promote something they thought was superior. Vendors dont' promote the most expensive thing they have unless they think it's the best. (by they way they would promote it on here which would be free advertisement through participation becuase in their opinion it's the best)

Very good I'm glad you figured out what business is all about. Yay for econ 101.

Actually a lot of people enjoyed smiley's shisha and a lot hated it. But to promote something on purpose that they thought was "bad" wouldn't they have to intentionally manipulate the public opinion of it? Which apparently vendors don't have to do to be more biased than an average consumer.

Vendors are consumers just like us, they just sell things to other consumers. They buy shisha and supplies, the smoke it, they sell it. We buy it, we smoke it, and occassionally sell it. See the huge difference? Me neither.


*as a last note, you kept preaching that vendors were so much different than us and should have their own label etc etc. Well if you think that, then why shouldn't they have their own set of rules?

[chromecarz00]

not saying it sohuld be, just saying it may be.

[cymptom]

Like I said before, I wouldn't think anyone would sell something they didn't believe was in the highest quality. Maybe you finally got that, maybe you didn't, whatever the case, you repeated me.

There are plenty of businesses who care more about making a sale than going in-depth to create an original, quality product. If you don't believe that... well... that's a shame.

Yes I can show you plenty of places

Vendor websites
vendor email updates
retailmenot.com

I asked you to show me a single place that has a collection of up to date info releases from vendors all over the web. I'm well aware that people can dig around and find whatever information they're looking for, given they know where to go. I'm talking about a resource that provides access to a large variety of vendor information, and not just discounts.

HOW IS IT BEING DISCOURAGED? You're still making no sense at all. They agreed to participate or leave. It's that simple.

Just to be clear... we're talking about discouraging vendors from posting product updates and things like that. How is it being discouraged? They're being told they can't do it if they don't want to participate in the other sections of the forum, which some people just don't want to do. Not wanting to participate in other areas of the forum has no direct relationship with the integrity of what their business has to offer.

Obviously you have trouble reading all the posts previous to yours. They were banned because there was no communication or attempt to correct their violation of the rules.

Yes it should reflect badly, do you want a vendor that agrees to something, then violates the agreement later on, showing they're flaky? NO, if you do there's more wrong with you than I thought.

I'll say it again, I'm not saying that HookahLife shouldn't have been banned according to the rules as they are. That is not in contention. I'm merely discussing the nature of the rules themselves. At worst, I'm off-topic in this thread.

I understand where you got the "two sides" thing but speaking on behave of being a business person myself I can talk personally and professionally, even though they're connected.

I can tell that you're speaking "personally" now. Listen man, there's no need to get aggravated in this thread. I'm not in here to create a heated discussion. This is one reason why these types of threads get closed.

Honestly, the only thing that makes me uncomfortable is your lack of ability to understand a simple rule and violation of said rule along with your unwillingness to accept that it's completely fair.

Where have I said that the rules haven't been broken? Do you think it is in the best interest of any system for people to accept the rules without hesitation or consideration? I'm not saying rules are made to be broken. I'm saying they're made to be revised after they've been given the proper consideration.

[Scoop]

liquid, can you try to respond to cymptom without resorting to strawman arguments?

[cymptom]

Sorry liquid, but I don't understand the point in post #71. Are you saying that there is no difference between vendors and consumers?