A question for Tangiers

[Lakemonster]

Hey......
Why is it that Virginia tobacco is athe knee-jerk choice when it comes to making shisha?
I've been wondering why Burley tobacco doesnt get used? The stuff has less bite and usually is smoother..... or say use a hybrid like TN-90
The other thing is I dont understand why there isnt a good natural flavor shisha out there... Zag is way to dry to smoke like we do here. lasts only about 10 minutes before burn sets in.
Wish't there was a nice wet natural flavor shisha. Sometimes I just wish I could smoke something that actually tastes like tobacco.
Whats up with this?

[Lakemonster]

It might..... as long aas its wetter than Zag.... it would probably fit the bill

[[LB]]

al fakher soft black basically is zag. i have a suggestion for you, try pipe tobacco flavor!

[Sonthert]

Complicated, complicated.1a. "Virginia" tobacco is a misnomer. It is an Arab myth that Virginia tobacco is the finest; kind of like saying French Wine. The majority of tobacco I have heard that is being used in Arab tobacco is low grade lug position. It is generally grown in poor soil, without modern agriculture and is not grown in the US (let alone Virginia). It may be speaking to the color or even the cure of the tobacco. 1b. I believe most company's are misrepresenting their products if they call it "Virginia" tobacco. Virginia doesn't grow too much tobacco anymore, its mainly grown in the Carolinas. I believe Sultan is still using US tobacco, but I can't answer to the quality of it. From general public sentiment, I have heard it is very poor (since the flavor is dominated by the tobacco). It is fairly common once a brand name is established to reduce costs by reducing the amount of flavor, the workmanship, the quality of the tobacco, the amount of glycerine, etc. This may be whats happened to Sultan (reducing the amount of flavoring and/or using poorer tobacco). Al Waha seems to have decreased the amount of flavoring over the past four years, but rereleased their original level of flavors (at a higher price) and are calling it Romman. Burn one brand name, build another one. Nahkla/Fahkfahkina seems, on the other hand, to maintained their fine quality as well as most established Bahraini brands and Al Majlis (Saudi Arabia). Nahkla used to get their tobacco from a major wholeseller in the US, using domestically produced tobacco, but then switched (and the wholesaler assumed they switched to overseas sources). Nonetheless, the quality of their tobacco, wherever it comes from, seems to be excellent. 2. Burley isn't a type of tobacco, it is a curing method:(From lightest to darkest)Flue CuredOrientalBurleyDark FireFlue cured is the predominant method by which cigarette tobacco is cured so a HUGE percentage of US tobacco is flue-cured so its attractive to the "big cancer machine". This is as I understand it, I know NOTHING about cigarettes other than they make your couch smell funny. Burley cure is used more for cigars and pipe tobaccos. Burley cure tobacco, since it is more for uncased (unflavored) products tends to be excellent quality, since it would be used in something where somebody cared about the quality of the tobacco. This is a general ization, of course,  I test drove some  Burley cured Malawi  (wherever the heck that is  ) and it was of incredibly poor quality. Low sugar , flavor and nicotine. Was reminiscent of smoking  moldy tomato stems. 3. I use flue-cured US tobacco for Tangiers. I don't know much about tobacco plants except lets say the different names for the stalk positions of the tobacco leaves (tips, leaves, lug, cutter, base). I buy tobacco by the "mark" each crop from a specific area/field for a given year is given a code mark so that a manufacturer can buy the "same" tobacco since moving from one field to another may make all of the difference. As I understand it, cigarettes are reformulated every year, reblended tobacco, since the tobacco varies from year to year, in the flavor, the character, the nicotine count, whatever. In a dry year, tobacco plants are all dry and scrubby, their nicotine levels are high. (Standard is 3%) They have been as high as 5-6% (I've heard)!! In wet years or well manicured/irrigated crops the nicotine levels tend to be lower (and the plants larger) below 2%. Tobacco grown in poor soil, without nitrogen sources (fertlizer, etc.) or in poor climates, the nicotine level will be closer to 1%.4a. The problem with "tobacco" flavored tobacco is that the basic foundation leaves a residue and creates a well, a foundation flavor that the actual flavoring is built on. If you use corn syrup (like almost everyone but me is) the foundation flavor is non-existant. I use molasses which might make the foundation flavor like an incredibly light zaglool. I believe it gives the tobacco a more silky, mature body. The flavor has faded away, from personal experience, on my brand around 1.5-4 hours in (using a huge Tangiers bowl, but depending on which flavor). Without a top flavor, it wouldn't last more than one hour, I would guess.4b. I can make special orders, if you want, but I geared the foundation flavor towards building flavors on top of them. I had a prototype for a maple syrup based flavor that would have worked much better as a zag, but I haven't made it in three years. PM me for more info. Puff.puff.puffI hope that answered your question

[Cold493]

That's really interesting.  I really appreciate the contribution you are making to this forum.  Keep it up!

[tjt486]

Tangiers tobacco is great.  I am wrapping up my first bowl of watermellon and I cant wait to try the other flavors.  Ill do reviews this weekend.  Look for them, but I can say with confidence I will like the rest, if this is any indication.  Also his support for his customers is great.  There are a few other people on the forum with his tobacco who are probably a little more experienced smokers than I, and I look forward to their reviews as well.

[Brad]

I'm smoking cinnamon right now ...WOW. Talk about a great buzz.I'm going to post a few reviews soon too. I'm looking forward to seeing your opinions.

[HookahDuck]

You're a knowledgable guy Tangiers!


I really want to try some of your ma'assel... how does one go about that?

[Kofod]

Tangiers
Points 1a and b.
Your conclusions are made from the assumption that the label "virginia
tobacco" has something to do with origin, that is that tobacco is
called virginia because it is from virginia.
I am sorry to say, but that conception is wrong.
Labeling Virginia tobacco is just as much from virginia as canadian bacon is from Canada, or french toast from France.
Virginia tobacco is on the other hand just a special sort of tobacco
leaves, which can be planted everywhere on the globe and still be
virginia tobacco.
So
1a. Arabs do not tell that they use virginia tobacco because they think
that tobacco grown in virginia is finer. They use virginia tobacco
because thats the type commonly used for moassel (also by non-arabs).
1b. No it is not misrepresenting to say you use virginia tobacco eventhough it is not from virginia.
It would be misrepresenting to grow another type of tobacco in virginia
and then sell it of as virginia tobacco (the same way that a potato
does'nt become french fries just by comning from France).

Point 2.
Burley is in fact a tobacco. It is commonly given a certain specific curing process - but nevertheless it is a type of tobacco.

Here's some basics on tobacco types: [url="http://www.smoke.co.uk/tobacco/Tobacco.htm"]http://www.smoke.co.uk/tobacco/Tobacco.htm[/url]
burley type is listed #3 and virginia is last.

If it needs be explained more in detail I believe that there members on
the board very much into tobacco (much more so than I). Maybe they can
enlighten further than me.
I believe that Lakemonster revealed himself as some of an expert in some earlier threads, if I remember right?

[Lakemonster]

I wouldnt say expert...
I've done some research in the field of tobacco genetics, diseases and growing problems.
I have grown a small amount of Virginia tobacco, its not the easiest thing in the world. Bout like growing tomatoes, but feeding it sunshine like hay.
I've actually never heard of "Burley" being a curing process..... only as a strain of of tobacco that has several substrains like Red burley, white, Single-sucker burley..... I think Black Mammoth is in the burley family too.
There are around 20 or so species of tobacco out there... some good for smoking..... some, not really. The most common of them is Nicotiana Tobacum
Virginia tobacco does not mean "grown in Virginia, Great State of" Its a type of tobacco..... and it has many variations. Typically the leaves are brighter in color when cured out. Its actually a very loose classification that covers many strains. Stuff like Lemon Leaf and Orinoco...... that stuff usually gets dropped in under Virginia. Virginia tobaccos as a rule of thumb are sweeter... but are heavier in alkaloids that give you tongue bite.
Burleys arent as sweet, they dont have as much of the alkaloids that Virginia class does.
Theres plenty of other types of tobacco....and it has to do with genetics.. not necessarily the curing process. You have Oriental tobaccos (most of us call it "Turkish") and Perique as well. (this one can only be found growing in 3 square miles in St. James Parish, LA.)
All these tobaccos fall under Nicotiana Tobacum as far as I know.. but they all have different qualities about them on a genetic level. Some put off multiple flowers known as "suckers" and some put off only one flower. Some cure out dark when others cure out light, some sweet, some not, some more harsh, some smooth....etc
From that point, people have begun developing hybrids to suit different needs such as combating growth problems, and tobacco beetle resistance..... disease resistant strains or for shorter maturation time. TN-90 is one of them.... and it is classified as a burley. Or theres K-17 grown primarily for chewing tobacco... theres a ton of hybrids. (Note the letter before the #'s TN= Tennessee, K= Kentucky)
I follow you on curing processes.... there are many out there.... and some tobaccos are more suited to a particular process. For instance..... Ive never heard of a "Flue cured Burley." Im sure its out there.. but I havent seen it. Flue curing is a "Virginia" tobacco thing. Flue curing changes the taste of the tobacco significantly. But thats not a bad thing. I like Flue cured pipe tobacco.
I find it interesting that you use Flue cured for shisha.... are you using the cutters then? Im trying to think of any other cut that would have good quality but keep the nicotine down.
I had always heard that the tobacco used in most shisha was ground cured (heaped up in a pile and fermented in the sun). Fermentation of tobacco is the only real old school way of dropping nicotine levels and other offensive chemicals that mess with taste..... sure..... you can choose a cut off the plant lower to the ground and have less nicotine off the bat..... but to actually reduce nicotine that is there.... you gotta ferment it. Its really a form of decomposition..... one that has to be carefully executed if you want high quality leaf. You let the core of the pile get up over 160 degs F and it leaves a bad taste.
Of course... as far as taste goes...... only time can smooth over and round out how the leaf smokes. Aging is essencial...
...... unless you just ferment the crap out of it...... many times.... which is usually good enough for me. If it were left up to me....... Id make rolls of leaves and bundle them up the size of an ear of corn and fill up oak barrels with em and let em ferment over at least 8 months ( re arranging the bundles every 40 days)
Check these links out...... informative stuff.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco
This place is a very good seed vendor.... been pleased with my orders. Good place to see lots of varieties of tobacco and theyre uses. Scroll down a ways on the page till you get to the seed list.
[url="http://www.seedman.com/Tobacco.htm://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacc...com/Tobacco.htm://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacc...com/Tobacco.htm://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacc...com/Tobacco.htm://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacc...com/Tobacco.htm[/url]"][url="http://www.seedman.com/Tobacco.htm"]http://www.seedman.com/Tobacco.htm[/url][/url][/url]
 
 

[Guest Abide]

someone should make some with some latakia or perique  man that would be some interesting buzzes

[Sonthert]

Easy there big guy! You're gonna blow a gasket! Several brands I have looked at, that insist on putting their ingredients on the label make the point of calling it "Virginia's Tobacco" or "Finest Virginia's Tobacco" or something equally shocking. I was trying to make the point that these specific companies are misrepresenting their tobacco. That is the implicatiojns of the labels are that the tobacco is from Virginia. This is a problem from the standpoint of disclosure of origin rules... I'm not truly concerned with Virgina's good name. I appreciate your point about the specifics of Arab tobacco. What I know about what Arabs know about tobacco or understand about tobacco is only through what I hear from Arabic friends...who may really not actually know anything on a given topic. Like I said previously, what I know about tobacco is sparse. Flavoring, manufacturing and engineering are my fortes. I let other people make decisions about tobacco based on parameters that I define. In other words, I know what I like and I tell the wholesaler. He refers to burley as a cure of tobacco and I have never heard to it reffered to as a type. He claims flue-cured tends to be sweeter than burley, other than that he never speaks about the specifics. So what's the disagreement...I said Virginia tobacco isn't from Virginia and you say its not from Virginia. I said it was a misnomer...I was not assuming it was from Virginia. My French Wine comparison was completely backwards. I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression. I don't express myself very well sometimes, I was in a terrible hurry and I apologize to you if I have upset you in some way.

[Sonthert]

I was agreeing with Lake Monster about being a knee-jerk choice is what I was saying. See! Even my clarification was crappy.

[Lakemonster]

No worries, dude.
My intentions were not to "jump" you.
I fully see what you are talking about........ all this is a form of "misrepresentation" or a wide generalization at least.
Tobacco can get as in depth as you want to get. There is a strain of tobacco... and and taking into account of where it grows and the year it was harvested (growing conditions considered IE: drought, overly hot season.... etc.) for every element of tobacco consumption.
For instance. As far as a cigar is concerned. I prefer the taste of Cuban seed Nicaraguan long filler and binder with an Ecuador grown Sumatran wrapper.
dude..... for sh!ts and giggles, Ask your supplier about quoting you a price on some "Barn Cured, TN-90 (or some "red" burley if you want a bit stronger flav), cutters."
Theres alot of good leaf out there to play with man, you could dial in certain shisha to be like fine cigars or pipe tobacco.
I fully imagine you have the process down to a great science.... the choice of tobacco could mean total break thru.
Abides above reply brings an interesting question to attention.
Lets talk about Latakia for a sec. Latakia is a basically an oriental tobacco that has been cured by placing the leaves over a fire (traditionally fuelled by camel dung) and adding geraniums ( the flower) and spices to the fire. Kinda like smoking salmon. It has unmistakable taste and smell to it ("room note" in the pipe world)
Both those tobaccos mentioned are generally used for pipe tobacco. I think many of us hookah smokers out there are pipe smoker too..... and long for a REAL representation of "Pipe" or "Cavendish" flavors. When we smoke those flavors... we as pipe smoker are let the ef down.
Which leads me to cavendish. Thats not a flavor. Its a process...... it is a type of pressing of the tobacco and leaving it under pressure for a period of 36 hours or more. Basically what this does is force "marry" the difference in flavor from leaf to leaf...... balancing it all out. This is yet another "quality control" thing that deserves research.
Ya know what.... I tried to order some of your tobacco about 4 months ago from Hookahcompany..... they were out and replaced my choice with something else... bummer..... was looking forward to trying your brand.
Who's in stock right now?...... I'd like to give what you are doing a shot.
Any way.... no attacks from me. All this is in the interest of learning and friendly debate.
Merry Christmas.
 

[Guest Abide]

Yup, avid pipe smoker here. And for all these people looking for a buzz smoking the hookah and what not, I mean i love it, but man some Dunhill Nightcap wooooo even with just a hint of perique in there you can feel it in your nose! It seems pipe tobacco alone is about as varied as alcohol in brands and production variations. I get some cavendish in bulk from my local shop since its nice and sweet, and then ive begun sampleing the top brands of just some pretty random pipe tobaccos. Peterson's Sunset Breeze has got to be my favorite so far. It has a very nice sweet Amaretto flavor to it. And now that im trying to see where im even going with this im going to end it.
So how many of you hookah smokers sport a pipe when you cant carry it around?

[alen]

[quote name='Kofod']TangiersPoints 1a and b.Your conclusions are made from the assumption that the label "virginia tobacco" has something to do with origin, that is that tobacco is called virginia because it is from virginia.I am sorry to say, but that conception is wrong.Labeling Virginia tobacco is just as much from virginia as canadian bacon is from Canada, or french toast from France.Virginia tobacco is on the other hand just a special sort of tobacco leaves, which can be planted everywhere on the globe and still be virginia tobacco.So1a. Arabs do not tell that they use virginia tobacco because they think that tobacco grown in virginia is finer. They use virginia tobacco because thats the type commonly used for moassel (also by non-arabs).1b. No it is not misrepresenting to say you use virginia tobacco eventhough it is not from virginia.It would be misrepresenting to grow another type of tobacco in virginia and then sell it of as virginia tobacco (the same way that a potato does'nt become french fries just by comning from France).Point 2.Burley is in fact a tobacco. It is commonly given a certain specific curing process - but nevertheless it is a type of tobacco.Here's some basics on tobacco types: [url="http://www.smoke.co.uk/tobacco/Tobacco.htmburley"]http://www.smoke.co.uk/tobacco/Tobacco.htmburley[/url] type is listed #3 and virginia is last.If it needs be explained more in detail I believe that there members on the board very much into tobacco (much more so than I). Maybe they can enlighten further than me.I believe that Lakemonster revealed himself as some of an expert in some earlier threads, if I remember right?[/quote]
Hi there my danish neighbour good to see that you are still here i havent heard anything from you lately hope youre not dissepointed that i couldnt send you any serbetli but next time they go down to turkey(they have a house there) they promised that they would bring me more - anyway real good to see that you still share all your knowledge to us here on the forum and if you have time send me a pm and tell me how its going in copenhagen(or are you back on bornholm?) take care and be well
Alen

[Lakemonster]

I make em and smoke em.
I've purchased Perique in bulk and filled up a half bowl of it......  whoaaaaaa nelly. Its strong. I use it to mix....I never use over 7% total in my blends.
zI keep meaning to try some of Petersons selction... no one local carries it. Heard good things about the "University Flake"
My faves are:
Dunhill 3 year matured Virginia
Dunhill 965
MacBaren Virginia #1
and something I call "Neche" Its basically Lane BCA, Lane BLWB, Flue Cured VA and Perique. I cavendish press this blend and then let age at least 3 months.

[alen]

[quote name='Lakemonster']I make em and smoke em.
I've purchased Perique in bulk and filled up a half bowl of it......  whoaaaaaa nelly. Its strong. I use it to mix....I never use over 7% total in my blends.
zI keep meaning to try some of Petersons selction... no one local carries it. Heard good things about the "University Flake"
My faves are:
Dunhill 3 year matured Virginia
Dunhill 965
MacBaren Virginia #1
and something I call "Neche" Its basically Lane BCA, Lane BLWB, Flue Cured VA and Perique. I cavendish press this blend and then let age at least 3 months.[/quote]
am i right if i understand it as you smoke pipetobacco in your shisha ? or do you mix pipetobacco in your masell ? i talked to a lebaneese once that made his own tobacco from raisin molasses and pipe tobacco and he said it was ok -
 pipesmoking is a real old custom over here as you know many brands come from europe and one of the oldest and famous pipe tobacco shops is in copenhagen and its called V.O larsen i always visit it when i go to denmark they have a big room with different tobaccos so you can make your own favorit mix and the guys that works there are real profesionals so if you ever going on a trip to europe make shure to visit copenhagen
and if you havent tried Ampfora (a dutch brand) try to find it it is one of the nicest pipe tobacco i tried it has a smooth flavour with a hint of vanilla and cherry
i havent seen it for some time now but if you are intrested i can try to see if i can find it for you over here
take care
Alen

[Kofod]

Hello Alen

Nice to se you to :-) I'm not at Bornholm before Christmas

I'd like to taste some of that Serbetli any time you will get your
hands on some. As a matter of fact I would also be interested in buying
some in large scale to import it.

I guess what lakemonster say's is that he makes his own (regular) pipes
- and he smokes tobacco in them (that is my impression from earlier
threads).

By the way W.O.Larsen shop is closed. Some other tobacco company has
taken over their tobacco brands/flavours but the shop is no more and
their international clientel has to look elsewhere for premium tobacco
purchases - from what I hear it came as a shock to the secret service
(and the rest of the presidential "cirkus") last time they where here.
So losing their cigarshop is right up there with terrorist etc. with
regards to making them tick.

[Lakemonster]

Yeah. I make pipes and smoke them.
Some of the best pipe makers in the world are from your neck of the woods.
Denmark is home to many of the worlds finest pipes....
Ive always liked Kent Rasmussen's pipes have always impressed me.
heres one of his latest ones Ive seen.
[img]http://pipedo.com/pipes/kent/043/a.jpg[/img]

[alen]

you should really enjoy the W.O larsen shop they really had the best of the best of danish pipes and tobacco- im really sad to hear that its not around anymore beacuse that shop was over 140 years old and the atmosphere was awsome just like to take a step back in time 
[url="http://vegassmokes.com/pipes/denmark/larsen/w-o-larsen-pipes.htm"] [url="http://vegassmokes.com/pipes/denmark/larsen/w-o-larsen-pipes"]http://vegassmokes.com/pipes/denmark/larse...-o-larsen-pipes[/url][/url] .htm

[Kofod]

Yes it is sad indeed. They had prominent customers all over the world - and the only place secret service could get cuban cigars :-)From what they said when it was closed was that the then current owner did'nt want to carry it on anymore since he was also a bigshot economist in Stockholm - so you can go bash his head some time :-)Now I go to Poul Olsen, and the tobaccomaster there is helping me with finding the right tobacco for my trials with moassel making.

[alen]

Damn another rich f**k making us swedes look bad over thereim just polishing my louisville slugger and ill find him ill promise-well thats really bad that they let that happen since it was such a well known profile at ströget actually its a big f**king shame -didnt people protest ?

[Kofod]

Yep people did protest - but I guess it was obvious that such a store just could'nt be on the strøget in these times, the rent and etc. - so no matter what it would have to move, and since the current mr Larsen could make better bucks working as an economist than managing the business he chose not to open elsewhere.Now there's a pizza-hut and some trendy café there :-(But I can tell you where Paul Olsen when you come to Copenhagen, and I guess they are to the same standard - at least I "meet" the minister of foreign affairs last time there and he was mentioned in the papers as "one of the prominent pipesmokers who had to go elsewhere" when WO. Larsen was closed, so if Paul Olsen can be his replacement it can be likewise for me.

[Sonthert]

L.M. No problem...kiss...kiss....hug...hug. Alls better. I've found, much to some people's chagrin, the most flavorless, low sugar low nicotine tobacco works the best....less stuff to mess with the flavor. That's what I use.Nicaraguan? Like Punch US Markets? My absolute favorite is Cuban Punch, either the Double Corona or the Black Prince. My favorite Non-Cuban is Honduran Hoyo de Monterrey. (Hate the cuban Hoyos).