Why The Difference?

[TheScotsman]

So, we had katrina, New Orleans floods, people looting every store they can, the superdome gets wasted, the federal gov't/fema pump millions into the people, hand out prepaid debit cards, find homes/emergency trailers... the list goes on... and we still hear losers in the media whining about how bad it still is, how much is not fixed (no doubt at taxpayer expense)... every now and then we see an interview with some jackass whining about how bad off they are, but I never see them doing anything to make their own lives better.

On the other hand, Iowa & Missouri are a mess, the flooded area is dramatically larger, (4+ million acres at last count) more people affected and I have yet to see any of them hording into an arena with their hands out, begging for federal emergency trailers, debit cards, and taxpayer-paid hotels for 6 months. Even more, rather than looting they are helping each other save homes/property. building flood control, Even some plugging holes in dykes with their hands while COE personnel back-filled the damage.


Other than the fact New Orleans populace doesn't seem too motivated to do for themselves, and thinks they are entitled to sitting back while the rest of the nation does it all for them, what do you suppose is the difference? The news media has hinted at a socio-racial aspect to the difference between how a disaster is handled, but I refuse to believe the colour of ones dermal layers make them want to live in a dump. Edited June 18, 2008 by TheScotsman

[SimplexCoda]

Its all in the background of these people. From what i have experienced, people raised in an urban environment have the mentality of look out for myself. While people in less urban areas understand the value of helping one another and how important hard work is. Another thing that urbanites typically dont get. Im not against cities and people from them. Im against the mentality that "im the most important and people should do everything for me."

[John Stuart Mill]

Well, these rural communities are flooded with more frequency. They are aware of the possibility and prepare accordingly. New Orleans was protected by massive levies few thought would break. Most of the towns affected by the recent floods had more warning. Plus, in New Orleans there certainly existed a larger number of homeless and destitute individuals. The city had an undue amount of underprivileged individuals, even when compared to a normal metropolis. People in rural towns generally have some savings that they can fall back on. Life in a Podunk town certainly isn't conducive to homelessness. Those who fall on hard times probably move to the city. At least, that has been an historically important motivation that fueled urbanization. More sparsely populated areas probably have a greater proportion of car owners. They obviously don’t have the same mass-transit options that exist in a major city. This fact probably eased any evacuation. Plus, the floods rose relatively slowly compared to the sudden flooding in a hurricane. Your assertion that this disaster is bigger is incorrect. Much more land and crops have been affected, but the total property damage was estimated at something like 1.5 billion. Also much fewer people have thus far been affected. Roughly 40,000 have been evacuated thus far, compare that to the 2004 population of New Orleans around 500,000. Remember Katrina also affected much more than New Orleans. Edited June 21, 2008 by John Stuart Mill

[John Stuart Mill]

So, we had katrina, New Orleans floods, people looting every store they can, the superdome gets wasted, the federal gov't/fema pump millions into the people, hand out prepaid debit cards, find homes/emergency trailers... the list goes on... and we still hear losers in the media whining about how bad it still is, how much is not fixed (no doubt at taxpayer expense)... every now and then we see an interview with some jackass whining about how bad off they are, but I never see them doing anything to make their own lives better.

On the other hand, Iowa & Missouri are a mess, the flooded area is dramatically larger, (4+ million acres at last count) more people affected and I have yet to see any of them hording into an arena with their hands out, begging for federal emergency trailers, debit cards, and taxpayer-paid hotels for 6 months. Even more, rather than looting they are helping each other save homes/property. building flood control, Even some plugging holes in dykes with their hands while COE personnel back-filled the damage.


Other than the fact New Orleans populace doesn't seem too motivated to do for themselves, and thinks they are entitled to sitting back while the rest of the nation does it all for them, what do you suppose is the difference? The news media has hinted at a socio-racial aspect to the difference between how a disaster is handled, but I refuse to believe the colour of ones dermal layers make them want to live in a dump.

In terms of looting, there were far more people in New Orleans and they were condensed. Most of the current flood zones probably don't have top dollar electronics stores. The major cities have been largely spared. For instance, much of Iowa City remained above water and their drinking supply was unaffected. This leads to a stable police presence that can thwart looters. What is some farmer or rural dweller going to rob, the feed store? Plus, as I previously mentioned the increased poverty was certainly a factor. Edited June 19, 2008 by John Stuart Mill

[liquidglass]

Well, these rural communities are flooded with more frequency. They are aware of the possibility and prepare accordingly. New Orleans was protected by massive levies few thought would break. Most of the towns affected by the recent floods had some warning. Plus, in New Orleans there certainly existed a larger number of homeless and destitute individuals. The city had an undue amount of underprivileged individuals, even when compared to a normal metropolis. People in rural towns generally have some savings that they can fall back on. Life in a Podunk town certainly isn't conducive to homelessness. Those who fall on hard times probably move to the city. At least, that has been an historically important motivation that fueled urbanization. Your assertion that this disaster is bigger is incorrect. Much more land and crops have been affected, but the total property damage was estimated at something like 1.5 billion. Also much fewer people have thus far been affected. Roughly 40,000 have been evacuated thus far, compare that to the 2004 population of New Orleans around 500,000. Remember Katrina also affected much more than New Orleans.

Yes it affected more than New Orleans, but we're talking flood damage not hurricane damage to surrounding areas.

I'm curious where you're coming up with your statistics. "Rural area people generally having some savings" "Those that fall on hard times....historically move to cities" etc etc.

Also yes 40k have been evacuated.....so far, you'd have to look at time tables to figure out an accurate comparison where as you're comparing current figures of something on going with final figures.


Beyond any of this, your point is moot as to the motivation and determination of the people involved.

Ok let's suppose they had more warning than New Orleans (although I think a big ass hurricane is a pretty good damn warning) So to prepare, what could they do beyond evacuate themselves (which might lower the evacuation number).

And your assertion this event is smaller than New Orleans is inaccurate, you're basing it on media coverage not facts.
New Orleans: peoples homes were destroyed, tax payer money helped, etc.

Current floods: crops and homes were destroyed, tax payer money might help, but here's the KICKER. With food prices already surging higher than we've seen in quite sometime the last thing we need is a shit load of crops being destroyed that would undoubtedly give another blow to the economy. We already pay our taxes.....now we'll have to pay more for food, which is def. a bigger financial/economical distaster than the political disaster of new orleans.

[liquidglass]

In terms of looting, there were far more people in New Orleans and they were condensed. Most of the current flood zones probably don't have top dollar electronics stores. What is some hick going to rob, the feed store? Plus, as I previously mentioned the increased poverty was certainly a factor.

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

[John Stuart Mill]

In terms of looting, there were far more people in New Orleans and they were condensed. Most of the current flood zones probably don't have top dollar electronics stores. What is some hick going to rob, the feed store? Plus, as I previously mentioned the increased poverty was certainly a factor.

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

I was being rather mean, but i was referring to those who would steel in said areas. In New Orleans one could say, "Thugs have been ransacking the streets." I thought hick was a more appropriate term for miscreants in rural areas. I'm sorry if it came off as offensive towards rural populations. I changed it to not have any negative connotations. I'm assuming small towns don't have large electronics stores. I'm not certain, but my uncle in rural Georgia has to drive a fair distance to reach any real selection. I don't think steeling a tractor or farm equipment would be as easy. They are obviously large and cumbersome. Any tractor if not removed from the flooded area would also require a key. Edited June 19, 2008 by John Stuart Mill

[John Stuart Mill]

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

In regard to poverty I don’t think that necessarily indicates a lack of motivation. It’s a fact that our system isn’t 100% efficient and many qualified individuals can’t find work. I never said poverty excused looting, but rather that its conditions caused it. I took the following from something I wrote in the past.

People are poor primarily due to their environmental conditions. For instance, I’m upper middle class student who applied mediocre effort and received admission to CU. A poor person would be incapable of receiving a higher education with my credentials. For a member of a deprived family to attend this college they would have to be in the top few percent that achieve full scholarships. Perhaps, some would contend that they could work several jobs and take out exorbitant loans to attend school, but that would only apply to those capable of extreme perseverance. I know that I would not be among those few. You would either need extraordinary intelligence or personal strength to achieve what I have simply been bequeathed. So why because of purely environmental factors do I attend college where many equally capable poor are denied it? They are condemned by system that doesn’t treat men according to equality or merit, but rather by the conditions of their birth. They necessitate additional funds in order to be given a similar opportunity.

Many other nonfinancial environmental factors also hinder the poor. They have generally worse schools, police and other services. Few qualified individuals wish to work and live in a poor neighborhood. They are exposed to a culture closely associated with the rejection of the greater society. They tend to emphasize the need of their small communities over education. Education is, in fact, discouraged among much of the cultural forces present in poor regions. Criminality is also wide spread among the urban poor. Any involvement in criminal activity limits their chances of leading productive lives. A man beholden to a gang won’t feel compelled to go to college. A criminal record and jail time negatively effects their possibility of a finding a stable career. This leads to a downward spiral of criminal behavior and welfare checks.

Does anyone truly believe that profits are justified by work? Does Bill gate work several thousand times harder than the average wage earner? No belief should deem one man worth thousands of others. This ideology only services the top few percent, and yet the majority are enslaved by it.

[John Stuart Mill]

Well, these rural communities are flooded with more frequency. They are aware of the possibility and prepare accordingly. New Orleans was protected by massive levies few thought would break. Most of the towns affected by the recent floods had some warning. Plus, in New Orleans there certainly existed a larger number of homeless and destitute individuals. The city had an undue amount of underprivileged individuals, even when compared to a normal metropolis. People in rural towns generally have some savings that they can fall back on. Life in a Podunk town certainly isn't conducive to homelessness. Those who fall on hard times probably move to the city. At least, that has been an historically important motivation that fueled urbanization. Your assertion that this disaster is bigger is incorrect. Much more land and crops have been affected, but the total property damage was estimated at something like 1.5 billion. Also much fewer people have thus far been affected. Roughly 40,000 have been evacuated thus far, compare that to the 2004 population of New Orleans around 500,000. Remember Katrina also affected much more than New Orleans.

Yes it affected more than New Orleans, but we're talking flood damage not hurricane damage to surrounding areas.

I'm curious where you're coming up with your statistics. "Rural area people generally having some savings" "Those that fall on hard times....historically move to cities" etc etc.

Also yes 40k have been evacuated.....so far, you'd have to look at time tables to figure out an accurate comparison where as you're comparing current figures of something on going with final figures.


Beyond any of this, your point is moot as to the motivation and determination of the people involved.

Ok let's suppose they had more warning than New Orleans (although I think a big ass hurricane is a pretty good damn warning) So to prepare, what could they do beyond evacuate themselves (which might lower the evacuation number).

And your assertion this event is smaller than New Orleans is inaccurate, you're basing it on media coverage not facts.
New Orleans: peoples homes were destroyed, tax payer money helped, etc.

Current floods: crops and homes were destroyed, tax payer money might help, but here's the KICKER. With food prices already surging higher than we've seen in quite sometime the last thing we need is a shit load of crops being destroyed that would undoubtedly give another blow to the economy. We already pay our taxes.....now we'll have to pay more for food, which is def. a bigger financial/economical distaster than the political disaster of new orleans.

Crop damage is certainly a problem, but he stated more land and people were affected. I think he was referring to the current human cost, not subsequent price increases. I could probably drag up some article on urbanization to illustrate my point about the destitute moving to cities. I thought it was pretty generally accepted. Look at the great depression people migrated to the cities in mass for food and assistance. A rural area doesn’t have the same support system for the poor. For instance, when a man losses his farm and house to foreclosure where does he turn? It’s not as though there’s a wide variety of jobs and temporary shelter available in a rural area.

[liquidglass]

In terms of looting, there were far more people in New Orleans and they were condensed. Most of the current flood zones probably don't have top dollar electronics stores. What is some hick going to rob, the feed store? Plus, as I previously mentioned the increased poverty was certainly a factor.

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

I was being rather mean, but i was referring to those who would steel in said areas. In New Orleans one could say, "Thugs have been ransacking the streets." I thought hick was a more appropriate term for miscreants in rural areas. I'm sorry if it came off as offensive towards rural populations. I changed it to not have any negative connotations. I'm assuming small towns don't have large electronics stores. I'm not certain, but my uncle in rural Georgia has to drive a fair distance to reach any real selection. I don't think steeling a tractor or farm equipment would be as easy. They are obviously large and cumbersome. Any tractor if not removed from the flooded area would also require a key.

Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. I wouldn't refer to african americans in new orleans as "thugs" so same goes for white people in rural areas.

You're right they are cumbersome, but the parts would pay off tons. Plus keys are kept in side boxes becuase no one is stupid enough to drive off from the cops at 10mph.

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

In regard to poverty I don't think that necessarily indicates a lack of motivation. It's a fact that our system isn't 100% efficient and many qualified individuals can't find work. I never said poverty excused looting, but rather that its conditions caused it. I took the following from something I wrote in the past.

People are poor primarily due to their environmental conditions. For instance, I'm upper middle class student who applied mediocre effort and received admission to CU. A poor person would be incapable of receiving a higher education with my credentials. For a member of a deprived family to attend this college they would have to be in the top few percent that achieve full scholarships. Perhaps, some would contend that they could work several jobs and take out exorbitant loans to attend school, but that would only apply to those capable of extreme perseverance. I know that I would not be among those few. You would either need extraordinary intelligence or personal strength to achieve what I have simply been bequeathed. So why because of purely environmental factors do I attend college where many equally capable poor are denied it? They are condemned by system that doesn't treat men according to equality or merit, but rather by the conditions of their birth. They necessitate additional funds in order to be given a similar opportunity.

Many other nonfinancial environmental factors also hinder the poor. They have generally worse schools, police and other services. Few qualified individuals wish to work and live in a poor neighborhood. They are exposed to a culture closely associated with the rejection of the greater society. They tend to emphasize the need of their small communities over education. Education is, in fact, discouraged among much of the cultural forces present in poor regions. Criminality is also wide spread among the urban poor. Any involvement in criminal activity limits their chances of leading productive lives. A man beholden to a gang won't feel compelled to go to college. A criminal record and jail time negatively effects their possibility of a finding a stable career. This leads to a downward spiral of criminal behavior and welfare checks.

Does anyone truly believe that profits are justified by work? Does Bill gate work several thousand times harder than the average wage earner? No belief should deem one man worth thousands of others. This ideology only services the top few percent, and yet the majority are enslaved by it.

I'm curious, what college do you mean by CU?

Actually, my family is a working middle class family and I worked hard in hs, got scholarships, grants, etc to attend a private university and I'm the first person to graduate with a 4 year degree from my family.

My public high school was shit, where white people were the minority and I could sleep and make A's and still be "the smart kid"

My little brother had the same chances and opportunities that I did. Yet he chose differently than me. He joined a gang, did drugs, sold drugs, etc. He's straightened up now and has a kid and is working his ass off to rent his place.

What's the difference between me and him? Our choices.

While financial, situational, and other environmental factors CAN play a part they are often just an excuse for people who don't want to try.

Crop damage is certainly a problem, but he stated more land and people were affected. I think he was referring to the current human cost, not subsequent price increases. I could probably drag up some article on urbanization to illustrate my point about the destitute moving to cities. I thought it was pretty generally accepted. Look at the great depression people migrated to the cities in mass for food and assistance. A rural area doesn't have the same support system for the poor. For instance, when a man losses his farm and house to foreclosure where does he turn? It's not as though there's a wide variety of jobs and temporary shelter available in a rural area.

I understand where you're coming from, my biggest issue was with the fact that you said that urbanization was caused by this. When I took that to mean that cities were formed by poor people coming together to band together. I may have taken it incorrectly and if I did, I withdraw my statements in reference to it.

[John Stuart Mill]

Thank you for accepting my clarification. I did word that poorly.

I bet those tractors also have GPS tracking systems. It probably wouldn't be much of a cost issue considering the price of the machines. Edited June 19, 2008 by John Stuart Mill

[Vlax]

I bet those tractors also have GPS tracking systems. It probably wouldn't be much of a cost issue considering the price of the machines.

Those "tractors" rock. Some of the newer models of combines have it where you can enter in the GPS coordinates and the combine follows the path given, and they start at, I believe $500k.

For Financial and property damage still is not done yet. That water still has to gone to the gulf, so there is still plenty of flooding left to be done.

Plus all the farmers who lost their crops have a good chance of losing their their farms. Most farmers take out spring loans and pay them back in the fall, when the harvest is done. If they don't harvest then they can't pay back their loans.

[Big Boss]

I was listening to talk radio this morning (yeah... don't ask... ) and they were talking about this, what the difference is between New Orleans/Katrina and Iowa. A man called in and said this, "The difference between New Orleans and Iowa is that we won't blame the government! We won't demand credit cards! We won't demand trailers and then hotel rooms! We won't blame anybody else!" I don't necessarily agree with this statement, but I felt that it was thought provoking and I wanted to contribute to this thread.

[John Stuart Mill]

In terms of looting, there were far more people in New Orleans and they were condensed. Most of the current flood zones probably don't have top dollar electronics stores. What is some hick going to rob, the feed store? Plus, as I previously mentioned the increased poverty was certainly a factor.

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

I was being rather mean, but i was referring to those who would steel in said areas. In New Orleans one could say, "Thugs have been ransacking the streets." I thought hick was a more appropriate term for miscreants in rural areas. I'm sorry if it came off as offensive towards rural populations. I changed it to not have any negative connotations. I'm assuming small towns don't have large electronics stores. I'm not certain, but my uncle in rural Georgia has to drive a fair distance to reach any real selection. I don't think steeling a tractor or farm equipment would be as easy. They are obviously large and cumbersome. Any tractor if not removed from the flooded area would also require a key.

Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. I wouldn't refer to african americans in new orleans as "thugs" so same goes for white people in rural areas.

You're right they are cumbersome, but the parts would pay off tons. Plus keys are kept in side boxes becuase no one is stupid enough to drive off from the cops at 10mph.

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

In regard to poverty I don't think that necessarily indicates a lack of motivation. It's a fact that our system isn't 100% efficient and many qualified individuals can't find work. I never said poverty excused looting, but rather that its conditions caused it. I took the following from something I wrote in the past.

People are poor primarily due to their environmental conditions. For instance, I'm upper middle class student who applied mediocre effort and received admission to CU. A poor person would be incapable of receiving a higher education with my credentials. For a member of a deprived family to attend this college they would have to be in the top few percent that achieve full scholarships. Perhaps, some would contend that they could work several jobs and take out exorbitant loans to attend school, but that would only apply to those capable of extreme perseverance. I know that I would not be among those few. You would either need extraordinary intelligence or personal strength to achieve what I have simply been bequeathed. So why because of purely environmental factors do I attend college where many equally capable poor are denied it? They are condemned by system that doesn't treat men according to equality or merit, but rather by the conditions of their birth. They necessitate additional funds in order to be given a similar opportunity.

Many other nonfinancial environmental factors also hinder the poor. They have generally worse schools, police and other services. Few qualified individuals wish to work and live in a poor neighborhood. They are exposed to a culture closely associated with the rejection of the greater society. They tend to emphasize the need of their small communities over education. Education is, in fact, discouraged among much of the cultural forces present in poor regions. Criminality is also wide spread among the urban poor. Any involvement in criminal activity limits their chances of leading productive lives. A man beholden to a gang won't feel compelled to go to college. A criminal record and jail time negatively effects their possibility of a finding a stable career. This leads to a downward spiral of criminal behavior and welfare checks.

Does anyone truly believe that profits are justified by work? Does Bill gate work several thousand times harder than the average wage earner? No belief should deem one man worth thousands of others. This ideology only services the top few percent, and yet the majority are enslaved by it.

I'm curious, what college do you mean by CU?

Actually, my family is a working middle class family and I worked hard in hs, got scholarships, grants, etc to attend a private university and I'm the first person to graduate with a 4 year degree from my family.

My public high school was shit, where white people were the minority and I could sleep and make A's and still be "the smart kid"

My little brother had the same chances and opportunities that I did. Yet he chose differently than me. He joined a gang, did drugs, sold drugs, etc. He's straightened up now and has a kid and is working his ass off to rent his place.

What's the difference between me and him? Our choices.

While financial, situational, and other environmental factors CAN play a part they are often just an excuse for people who don't want to try.

Crop damage is certainly a problem, but he stated more land and people were affected. I think he was referring to the current human cost, not subsequent price increases. I could probably drag up some article on urbanization to illustrate my point about the destitute moving to cities. I thought it was pretty generally accepted. Look at the great depression people migrated to the cities in mass for food and assistance. A rural area doesn't have the same support system for the poor. For instance, when a man losses his farm and house to foreclosure where does he turn? It's not as though there's a wide variety of jobs and temporary shelter available in a rural area.

I understand where you're coming from, my biggest issue was with the fact that you said that urbanization was caused by this. When I took that to mean that cities were formed by poor people coming together to band together. I may have taken it incorrectly and if I did, I withdraw my statements in reference to it.

I attend CU boulder. I'm glad you succeeded, but I'm certain it was more difficult for you than me. You and I should have had an equal opportunity to attend college. I don't know if everyone is capable of expending the energy you did. A man like me probably wouldn't have put forth the necessary effort to achieve what you have. There are many men who put forth a much greater effort than I, but were forced to pass up opportunities do to their environment. Perhaps some of the urban poor are lazy, but look at the situation that created them. The odds were stacked against them, and therefore they have limited motivation. In other circumstance the individual could have been a proficient member of society. We place undue blame on the poor for their situation. I think it is more the environment than any inherent laziness that causes poverty. I therefore disagree with the assertion that the "indolent" poor in New Orleans were to blame. If you had no supportive relatives or transportation, who would you look to but the government?

In terms of urbanization I only meant to indicate that the poor flock to cities. I believe that the extreme poverty of some citizens in New Orleans certainly added to the disaster. That's part of the reason they couldn't evacuate and subsequently looked helpless. Edited June 19, 2008 by John Stuart Mill

[skaplayer89]

I´ll post my thoughts on this later when I have more time, but first of all...

Who in their right mind is going to steal a tractor? You do realize how hard it would be A: hide a tractor from the companies looking for them? and B: From neighbors? It´s not like an ipod from the electronics store that you can just stick in your pocket.

[Bulldog_916]

I would have to disagree with those saying that Iowa is somehow a worse situation than New Orleans and somehow Iowa is dealing with it better.

First off, you have to understand that hurricane Katrina in New Orleans caused almost 1500 official deaths, there are still to this day several dozen missing. In Iowa, however, there is only one fatality reported thus far from the actual flooding. There were bodies floating in disgusting sewer water for days and days after Katrina. It took almost 3 months to drain the water that came into New Orleans and coastal Mississippi. I doubt its going to take NEARLY as long to drain Iowa. The federal government was partially responsible for the situation in NO. There is no 2 ways around it. Bush cut Louisiana delta levee funding for the Corps of Engineers in order to partially fund the war in Iraq. There is documentation proving it. Part of it was the lack of preparation on the part of the Louisiana and Mississippi state governments. But that paled in comparison to the ineptitude of the feds. The destitute in Louisiana didnt have a choice, they werent insured against this kind of natural disaster. They couldnt afford a fucking car to get out of the city let alone home owners insurance to protect them against natural disasters. All the merchandise stolen was covered by those stores' insurance policies. I can guarantee it. So to sit here and tell me that somehow New Orleanians were in a better place than Iowans are now is just preposterous. Katrina victims AT LEAST deserved to have adequate emergency services afforded to them by the federal government and they didnt even get that. Remember "Heck of a job Brownie"? That was like "Mission Accomplished" all over again.

[liquidglass]

I´ll post my thoughts on this later when I have more time, but first of all...

Who in their right mind is going to steal a tractor? You do realize how hard it would be A: hide a tractor from the companies looking for them? and B: From neighbors? It´s not like an ipod from the electronics store that you can just stick in your pocket.

well first off, it was an example that there is ALWAYS something of value to steal. But with all the best buys, circuit city's, and walmarts I don't think you'd have to worry about people getting their hands on electronics.

But let's entertain the actual idea for a minute.
-The companies would be reimbursed and would probably not spend very long looking for tractors (insurance)
-You'd probably steal the parts, tons of valuable stuff to steal
- Who would you be hiding the tractor from? The only people that would really see you steal it....would be other looters. I'm sure they'll file a report as soon as the flood is over. I'm sure it would sell if you wanted it to.
- last but not least.....you obviously haven't seen my pockets

[skaplayer89]

Yeah but see you steal it, and see you use it are two completely different things. Also, I never knew there was a blackmarket for tractor parts....And last but not least.....You gotta be pretty fat to fit a tractor in your pockets.

[Bulldog_916]

There is a market for the equipment, trust me. Look at the gains that corn has made in price since 2006. Every farmer and their mom is trying to expand their farm's arable land to make corn for ethanol. At 8 dollars a bushel, you are sitting pretty when you can pop out 15000 bushels a day, IF you can. Corn farmers in an area where the weather is good are smiling big and wide.

[willbb123]

.02 cents from an Iowan who lives less then a mile away from flood water.

I just think its the Iowa/midwest way. Everyone is in the same boat, so go out and help your neighbor.

I took a day off work to go out and help sandbag. I went out and moved furniture out of an office of a friend. There were a ton of people there doing the same. I was amazed with the amount of volunteers around the city. I was watching the (live) news at 1am one morning and they were showing people waste deep in really gross flood water passing sand bags to help save a local hospital. The reporters were saying that the city would contact them and say that they needed help sand bagging, the city would then call back 30 min later to say that they had more volunteers then they needed and to tell people to stop coming! They started having people park at schools and large parking lots, then having them bussed in to where they needed the help. They ended up setting up a volunteer hotline to direct people where to go.

Tornado season is starting up and already caused a lot of damage and loss of life. What do we do after a tornado, we rebuild, and I think its the same for the floods.

I don't think that it is fare to compare us (the floods in Iowa) to the hurricane. There are always going to be the people that complain and want more money from the government.

About the crops being washed away. (I am not a farmer, my girlfriends dad is so I only know what I'm saying from talking to him.) There are a lot of fields that are still under feet of water, so they will not be able to plant. Some farmers have not planted yet because of all the rain. Farmers are going to be feeling the effects of this flood for years to come. Because there is not going to be as much corn grown this year the price is going to go way up. Not only is corn used for food, it is used for animal feed, ethanol, and seed corn for next year. Because corn is used for multiple things the demand is going to go up making the price of the 3 items are going to go up. It is not going to correct itself next year because the price of seed corn is up making it more expensive to plant next year.

Alright, its getting late and I'm tired so I'm sorry if parts don't make sense.

[willbb123]

I´ll post my thoughts on this later when I have more time, but first of all...

Who in their right mind is going to steal a tractor? You do realize how hard it would be A: hide a tractor from the companies looking for them? and B: From neighbors? It´s not like an ipod from the electronics store that you can just stick in your pocket.

I dont think I've ever heard of a tractor being stolen, though I'm sure its happened. I'll have to ask about that. We have cities too.

There has been some looting but it was not as bad as it could of been. When down town Cedar Rapids was evacuated there was National Guard troops patrolling keeping people out.

Iowa City there was a curfew put in place to keep people away from the flood water and away from empty businesses.

wb

[willbb123]

Well, these rural communities are flooded with more frequency. New Orleans was protected by massive levies few thought would break.

I have to disagree,
It did not just hit "rural communities" while we don't have huge cities, it did hit some of our biggest.
This was a 500 year flood. It put down town Cedar Rapids under 6ft of water and practically split Iowa City in half. Our last 500 yr flood was in 1993. (500 year food means there is a .02 percent chance of it happening every year.) We have dams and the water was FEET over the spill ways.
New Orleans is below sea level and has hurricanes every year.

Aerial video from Cedar Rapids

Aerial video from Iowa City and Coralville
wb

[John Stuart Mill]

Well, these rural communities are flooded with more frequency. New Orleans was protected by massive levies few thought would break.

I have to disagree,
It did not just hit "rural communities" while we don't have huge cities, it did hit some of our biggest.
This was a 500 year flood. It put down town Cedar Rapids under 6ft of water and practically split Iowa City in half. Our last 500 yr flood was in 1993. (500 year food means there is a .02 percent chance of it happening every year.) We have dams and the water was FEET over the spill ways.
New Orleans is below sea level and has hurricanes every year.

Aerial video from Cedar Rapids

Aerial video from Iowa City and Coralville
wb

Well, I meant to indicate that their system of levies and dams is less substantial. I’d assume these towns experience minor flooding incidents more regularly. New Orleans being a major metropolitan area had massive levees and huge pumps that were intended to cover most contingencies. The last major flooding occurred in 1965, after which they built sizable levees to protect the city.

[ahwahoo2006]

Well, I meant to indicate that their system of levies and dams is less substantial. I’d assume these towns experience minor flooding incidents more regularly. New Orleans being a major metropolitan area had massive levees and huge pumps that were intended to cover most contingencies. The last major flooding occurred in 1965, after which they built sizable levees to protect the city.

The Army Corps of Engineers has spent billions of dollars on flood control along the upper Mississippi as well.

[Brownman18]

In terms of looting, there were far more people in New Orleans and they were condensed. Most of the current flood zones probably don't have top dollar electronics stores. What is some hick going to rob, the feed store? Plus, as I previously mentioned the increased poverty was certainly a factor.

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

I was being rather mean, but i was referring to those who would steel in said areas. In New Orleans one could say, "Thugs have been ransacking the streets." I thought hick was a more appropriate term for miscreants in rural areas. I'm sorry if it came off as offensive towards rural populations. I changed it to not have any negative connotations. I'm assuming small towns don't have large electronics stores. I'm not certain, but my uncle in rural Georgia has to drive a fair distance to reach any real selection. I don't think steeling a tractor or farm equipment would be as easy. They are obviously large and cumbersome. Any tractor if not removed from the flooded area would also require a key.

Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification. I wouldn't refer to african americans in new orleans as "thugs" so same goes for white people in rural areas.

You're right they are cumbersome, but the parts would pay off tons. Plus keys are kept in side boxes becuase no one is stupid enough to drive off from the cops at 10mph.

You keep preaching "poverty" well that would attest to the original posts assertion that they are unwilling to better their lives and are happy living at a struggling financial point.

You're also assuming that the people flooded are 'hicks' and don't have rather expensive electronics stores. This merely proves your lack of intelligence in the matter.

Let's, for the sake of your deranged argument say they are hicks, then yes they're going to rob the nearest store. So tractor store, auto parts store, not like anything there is expensive...right? I don't keep current on my tractor knowledge but I'm sure they go for about 1 million +. Whew I'd much rather have a bestbuy next door if I was going to loot. I could grab a $3,000 tv and sell it for $1,000 after water damage.

Looting is not bettering your life, poverty "stricken" or not, it's no excuse.

In regard to poverty I don't think that necessarily indicates a lack of motivation. It's a fact that our system isn't 100% efficient and many qualified individuals can't find work. I never said poverty excused looting, but rather that its conditions caused it. I took the following from something I wrote in the past.

People are poor primarily due to their environmental conditions. For instance, I'm upper middle class student who applied mediocre effort and received admission to CU. A poor person would be incapable of receiving a higher education with my credentials. For a member of a deprived family to attend this college they would have to be in the top few percent that achieve full scholarships. Perhaps, some would contend that they could work several jobs and take out exorbitant loans to attend school, but that would only apply to those capable of extreme perseverance. I know that I would not be among those few. You would either need extraordinary intelligence or personal strength to achieve what I have simply been bequeathed. So why because of purely environmental factors do I attend college where many equally capable poor are denied it? They are condemned by system that doesn't treat men according to equality or merit, but rather by the conditions of their birth. They necessitate additional funds in order to be given a similar opportunity.

Many other nonfinancial environmental factors also hinder the poor. They have generally worse schools, police and other services. Few qualified individuals wish to work and live in a poor neighborhood. They are exposed to a culture closely associated with the rejection of the greater society. They tend to emphasize the need of their small communities over education. Education is, in fact, discouraged among much of the cultural forces present in poor regions. Criminality is also wide spread among the urban poor. Any involvement in criminal activity limits their chances of leading productive lives. A man beholden to a gang won't feel compelled to go to college. A criminal record and jail time negatively effects their possibility of a finding a stable career. This leads to a downward spiral of criminal behavior and welfare checks.

Does anyone truly believe that profits are justified by work? Does Bill gate work several thousand times harder than the average wage earner? No belief should deem one man worth thousands of others. This ideology only services the top few percent, and yet the majority are enslaved by it.

I'm curious, what college do you mean by CU?

Actually, my family is a working middle class family and I worked hard in hs, got scholarships, grants, etc to attend a private university and I'm the first person to graduate with a 4 year degree from my family.

My public high school was shit, where white people were the minority and I could sleep and make A's and still be "the smart kid"

My little brother had the same chances and opportunities that I did. Yet he chose differently than me. He joined a gang, did drugs, sold drugs, etc. He's straightened up now and has a kid and is working his ass off to rent his place.

What's the difference between me and him? Our choices.

While financial, situational, and other environmental factors CAN play a part they are often just an excuse for people who don't want to try.

Crop damage is certainly a problem, but he stated more land and people were affected. I think he was referring to the current human cost, not subsequent price increases. I could probably drag up some article on urbanization to illustrate my point about the destitute moving to cities. I thought it was pretty generally accepted. Look at the great depression people migrated to the cities in mass for food and assistance. A rural area doesn't have the same support system for the poor. For instance, when a man losses his farm and house to foreclosure where does he turn? It's not as though there's a wide variety of jobs and temporary shelter available in a rural area.

I understand where you're coming from, my biggest issue was with the fact that you said that urbanization was caused by this. When I took that to mean that cities were formed by poor people coming together to band together. I may have taken it incorrectly and if I did, I withdraw my statements in reference to it.

I attend CU boulder. I'm glad you succeeded, but I'm certain it was more difficult for you than me. You and I should have had an equal opportunity to attend college. I don't know if everyone is capable of expending the energy you did. A man like me probably wouldn't have put forth the necessary effort to achieve what you have. There are many men who put forth a much greater effort than I, but were forced to pass up opportunities do to their environment. Perhaps some of the urban poor are lazy, but look at the situation that created them. The odds were stacked against them, and therefore they have limited motivation. In other circumstance the individual could have been a proficient member of society. We place undue blame on the poor for their situation. I think it is more the environment than any inherent laziness that causes poverty. I therefore disagree with the assertion that the "indolent" poor in New Orleans were to blame. If you had no supportive relatives or transportation, who would you look to but the government?

In terms of urbanization I only meant to indicate that the poor flock to cities. I believe that the extreme poverty of some citizens in New Orleans certainly added to the disaster. That's part of the reason they couldn't evacuate and subsequently looked helpless.

You both make valid points but the difference is the geographic location, the way New orleans was constructed in the past through means of a system of levees and canals which lead to this base. The fort screwed it over because it was built in the perfect position to protect new orleans from attack from humans.

Building Category 5 protection, however, is proving to be an astronomically expensive and technically complex proposition. It would involve far more than just higher levees: there would have to be extensive changes to the city's system of drainage canals and pumps, environmental restoration on a vast scale to replenish buffering wetlands and barrier islands, and even sea gates far out of town near the Gulf of Mexico.

The cost estimates are still fuzzy, but the work would easily cost more than $32 billion, state officials say, and could take decades to complete.

The current levee system around the city was designed to withstand the equivalent of a Category 3 storm, and the Army Corps of Engineers is spending $1 billion to bring the damaged sections to their original design strength. They plan to complete that effort before next year's hurricane season, which begins on June 1.

But a sense of how much more extensive Category 5 protection would be can be found 23 miles east of downtown New Orleans at a strait called the Rigolets, which connects the gulf and Lake Pontchartrain. For nearly 200 years, the brick bastion of Fort Pike has looked down on the two-thirds-mile gap, which the fort was built to protect against military threats from land or sea.

These days, however, the threat is from the sea itself. A surge from storms like Hurricane Katrina can push water through the gap and send floods deep into the city. So engineers and other experts say that the Corps of Engineers should build a gate across the Rigolets (pronounced RIG-uh-lees) that could be shut in the face of a storm.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/29/national...amp;oref=slogin

Dont quite understand it any better then that myself, but theirs your difference.

The army of engineers couldn't have forseen what nature would bring, they still can't fix it because it costs too much...

Edited July 1, 2008 by Brownman18