Obama Or Mccain?

[Bulldog_916]

Did I miss the part where they passed a law that says people "Have to vote?"

Hrm, I must have missed that too... because I don't even register to vote.

Not because I don't care, but because I don't want to have a hand in supporting any government... because one way or another I'd be supporting all manner of crimes against my fellow man. I'm not a terribly religious person... but it still just seems very wrong.

Thanks yinz who do support our govt through voting though. Thanks for helping fuck everything up for the rest of us. Greatly appreciated...

Having no government would be tantamount to anarchy, which it sounds like you are either A. supporting in principal only, or B. all out supporting on every level. Anarchy would breed more death and destruction than any structured, democratic government ever could.

I'm pleased you have the freedom (granted by OUR countrymen) to think the way you do. I say OUR countrymen because the both of us being citizens of the United States (hopefully) are having that right defended by them (whether you agree with the theater of that defense and those for whom they provide that defense or not).

Just because you dont support A government does not mean you are somehow free of the crimes it commits or does not commit. You are still a member of that government whether you like it or not. Just as I am or anyone else who browses these forums as citizens of the United States. In the Constitution it states that we are a nation of the people, by the people and for the people. The only way to absolve yourself of that distinction is to remove yourself from the country as a citizen.

How am I, in my choosing to vote, fucking things up for you? I didnt ask you to live here. No one is forcing you to live here. You can perforate the border as many times as you want to being a citizen of the United States. I will hold the door open for you if you want to leave and I'll close it behind you as you go. It makes no difference to me. As long as you're a member of the country, you should vote by choice. I dont care if you vote for Mickey freakin' Mouse or Adolf Hitler or Don Julio. Vote Yes or No or "I dont give a fuck" on Prop __ blah, whatever. You're going a greater distance for the greater good by puting a paper ballot in a slot than putting opinions up on Internet forums.

Just my opinion.

[gaia.plateau]

Having no government would be tantamount to anarchy

Anarchy would breed more death and destruction than any structured, democratic government ever could

I'll argue against both of these points.

There's a difference, a big difference, between government and governance. Government usually requires, well, a government, but governance has been conducted by tribal bands and various councils of elders for millennia on small scales, and recently Inter-Governmental Organizations like the U.N. and various Non-Governmental Organizations have set up various forms of governance around the world.

Or take Jamaica, where gang rule has replaced corrupt official governance. Is a gang of ruffians a government? If so, well, fine, but if not, that's a case of perfectly ordered Westernly civil life going about without government.

Now on to the second point... that's just not supportable by any evidence that I've ever heard of. More destruction has been wrought since the beginning of the 20th century, in terms of loss of life, liberty, and justice, than all recorded history preceding it combined, and the vast majority of it was caused by democracies.

Now if you'd proposed that internally a democratic state is more secure and safe than a state of anarchy, you'd have an argument with at least theoretically evidence behind it. I say theoretical, because since recorded history there have not been enough examples of anarchy to constitute evidence. The reason for that, I'll put forth, is that humans tend to hunger for and aspire to have power and influence over one another, and that leads to government.

But I'll give an example of a case that could be argued as anarchy... the only one I can think of. Louis Riel's Metis National Council which technically became a provisional government, but never really governed anything. For the uninformed it was basically a large collection of tribes which formed together to hunt, be merry, and protect their land. From what we can tell, there were zero murders, zero thefts, zero vandalizations, or anything else we'd like to protect ourselves from in our gated communities while democratic governments restrict the right to privacy, to free speech without tasering, and etcetera.

Now I'm not advocating anarchy, I'm merely arguing the case. What I do believe is that power hunger is something that has been socialized into us since the very spark of the agricultural revolution. What I do believe is that sneakiness, two-facedness, and deception are things that have been socialized into us since around the time of Egypt's first Pharoah.

What anarchist theory puts forth is that in a natural state, i.e. one without government, we wouldn't be inclined to do these things, and would be happy, safe, and free.

Is that state possible today? -No, I wouldn't say so. Is anarchy then feasible? -No, probably not. Not unless everyone died and everything fell down, and we got a chance to start again. It's not infeasible because of some inherent human flaw or need to be governed, it's infeasible because of what we've become: animals. We can't live like animals in the jungle, because we've become animals in civilization. We're Orson Wells' pigs.

Further reading. Appropriately from wikipedia. Edited October 5, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[Bulldog_916]

The only argument I'll make against your points Gaia, is that people have instincts, feelings, and an insatiable appetite for goods and property. In this country, those three would mix to breed chaos in an anarchic system. I think, in principal, maybe an anarchic system might work here, but in practice, a different matter entirely. You would have many different anarchic groups, with guns and feelings on what their property is. The whole country would be up for grabs and Mexico would come out to be the winner at the end. I just dont think it would work in a country as big as ours. In a small country with tribal regimes, maybe. But not in a country like ours. We rail against helping our fellow man with money we make in the form of social services. It would be even worse under an anarchic system.

Our country is just too "Me-centric" to have it work.

[gaia.plateau]

The only argument I'll make against your points Gaia, is that people have instincts, feelings, and an insatiable appetite for goods and property.

But if that were the case, why did people only start caring about such things about 8,000 years ago? The overwhelming evidence shows us that before agriculture, before people started living in large numbers and in close proximity, property and materialism did not exist. So I think we can safely say that there is nothing in our genetic makeup that causes us to desire goods and property.

I know that I can say for myself that I have no desire for goods and property- yar, I work to make money and I spend that money on certain creature comforts while I attend University, a TV, laptop, hookahs, but if it all burned down it honestly wouldn't much matter to me. If it all burned down after May 1st 2009, it wouldn't matter to me whatsoever. The only reason I work is because I love my job, and the only non-essential things I put my money toward are alcohol, hookah and tattoos. I know a lot of people with the same worldview, and I think that we're further proof that there is nothing intrinsically property-seeking about humans.

In this country, those three would mix to breed chaos in an anarchic system. I think, in principal, maybe an anarchic system might work here, but in practice, a different matter entirely. You would have many different anarchic groups, with guns and feelings on what their property is. The whole country would be up for grabs and Mexico would come out to be the winner at the end. I just dont think it would work in a country as big as ours. In a small country with tribal regimes, maybe. But not in a country like ours. We rail against helping our fellow man with money we make in the form of social services. It would be even worse under an anarchic system.

Our country is just too "Me-centric" to have it work.

The US is a unique case for self-absorbtion in the world, and I think it's highly probable that you're correct; take a random sampling of 10,000 Americans and put them in a territory with no government, and yes I think they would probably tear one another apart.

But what about 10,000 Kikuyu Kenyans, or Ma'assai Ethiopians? What about 6,000 babies with no socialization or preconceptions of the world, cared for by 4,000 people with no attachment to property or possession whatsoever? I do agree with you that government, especially in Western society, is a necessary evil, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to do without - consider that humans, that is Cro Magnus, what we are, have been around for about 100,000 years- and we've only been possessing property for 8,000 of those. It's a flash in the pan, really, and for my part I hope that we're nearing the end of it.

[AKammenzind]

It's odd to see myself agreeing so much with gaia, but shit happens. I'm a little sloshed at the moment so apologies if I seem to skip around a lot.

Anarchy in its best form would be the absolute lack of rulers, which I honestly don't know how anyone could perceive as a bad thing. This does not necessarily mean that society would throw away all order and values and devolve into some sort of Road Warrior scenario, although that possibility can't be entirely ruled out.

Without the government to give us currency and tell us that we should value it above all else I think that our outlook on life would change pretty quickly. People would be stuck with the realization that the number they had lived their lives to increase suddenly ceased to have meaning, and there would probably be a shift in focus from money to our relationships with those around us and the things that really make us happy.

There would also probably be a good number of people killing themselves because they were too attached to their number, and felt like their life had suddenly lost all purpose. Ridding the world of misers doesn't really strike me as a terribly bad thing, especially if they off themselves and save everyone else the trouble.

I'm not saying the change would be easy, or that it wouldn't cause a lot of pain and suffering. But I am saying that for the first time since the agricultural revolution we could actually be free, and have the ability to be human beings rather than a bunch of gears in a giant machine roaring its way off a cliff.

What good does appointing special people to rule over us do?

[TheScotsman]

The more these two short-bus rejects go on, the more I really wish there were a third choice. First time I read Gaia's post, I thought self-absorption was self-abortion... I think the later is more accurate at this point. It seems to me the problem with most residents of the USA stems from the fact they completely lack an ability to sustain themselves in even the most rudimentary ways. They expect someone to take care of them, they expect someone to coddle them, and mediate their arguments, and mandate behaviors that should not need mandating. Now we get McBama, or Ocain (really, I don't see much difference between "that one", or "this one". It's sorta like spy vs spy, only neither of them brought any of those "portable holes" to put on the sidewalk for the other to fall into.

At this point, almost anything is better than curious george, but I don't think ACORN-man fits into that almost anything category. There is just way too much corruption, and hypocrisy showing up in Obamessiah's background. If there is any reason to go vote at all, it is solely to prove that a biased corrupt media can't brainwash me into guzzling the kool-aid. Besides, with ACORN in action for Obamessiah, one knows the election is fraudulent even before the first little fold-up-booth comes out of the back room.

[Bulldog_916]

Do whatever you want Scotsman. Dont vote for Obama. But dont vote for McCain either. Write in mickey mouse. I dont care. As long as another Republican doesnt win this year, I'm fine.

[gaia.plateau]

Do whatever you want Scotsman. Dont vote for Obama. But dont vote for McCain either. Write in mickey mouse. I dont care. As long as another Republican doesnt win this year, I'm fine.

But just think how much more exciting and unpredictable the world would become if McCain won and died, putting Palin in power?



I think I want to live in that world.

[Balthazar]

I'm no fan of Palin, but her debating skills is unmatched

[AKammenzind]

I'm no fan of Palin, but her debating skills is unmatched

That is an awesome flow chart, and so sadly true... the really sad part is that with slight alterations it applies to just about any politician out there.

And fuckin right gaia! Road Warrior FTMFW!

[cemab4y]

I am voting absentee, my residence is in Virginia, and I work in Afghanistan. Virginia is on the "brink", it could come down to the absentee ballots. McCain is likely to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, he looked unstoppable, but the economy is an albatross around his neck.

My wife is from Russia, she became a US Citizen in 2005, this is her first chance to vote for president. She cannot vote for McCain, because he said bad things about Vladimir Putin. She cannot vote for a black person, she has definite racial attitudes. I tried to convince her that Obama is only half-black, but she still considers him as not fully evolved yet.

She is going to vote for Ralph Nader. Go figure.

[Balthazar]

I tried to convince her that Obama is only half-black, but she still considers him as not fully evolved yet.

Whoah

Edit: Also Edited October 11, 2008 by Balthazar

[TheScotsman]

Do whatever you want Scotsman. Don't vote for Obama. But dont vote for McCain either. Write in mickey mouse. I dont care. As long as another Republican doesnt win this year, I'm fine.

But just think how much more exciting and unpredictable the world would become if McCain won and died, putting Palin in power?



I think I want to live in that world.

in a world with a near-naked dude wearing shiney-black leather underwear, a leash, and a hockey mask... packing a dan wesson .44You are terrifying me! That's what that cheap Canadian beer does to you!

I tried to convince her that Obama is only half-black, but she still considers him as not fully evolved yet.

Whoah

Edit: Also

As bad as it sounds, the rest of the world (excluding the greater part of GB, and Scandinavia) is not all that integrated/diversified. Racism is a very real part of the world as a whole. More, it is openly part of society in most of the Asian and ex-com-block world. It is the 700 lb gorilla-in-the-room of the whole foreign policy equation that is completely ignored in this country. Just because the PC-fools of the USA are afraid to talk about it at all, doesn't make it go away. Edited October 11, 2008 by TheScotsman

[guitarninja86]

Obama, no contest.

I'm not even passionate about Obama, I was never a fan in the primaries, he's said some things that scare the hell out of me, I don't think he has any idea the mess he's stepping into, and there's no way he's going to get us out of this economic hole, but it's a real statement about how awful a choice McCain is that I'm this passionate about Obama.

My honest opinion is that this race is really about the VP's. Whichever candidate wins will wind up dead and we'll wind up with a president that we didn't really elect. Obama will likely be assassinated by the good ol' boys down south within a year of his inauguration and Biden will be president, which I am absolutely fine with. McCain is old, frail, sick, and has one foot in the grave with the other on a banana peel. And then we'll be faced with the very real prospect of President Sarah Palin. And if that doesn't fill you with absolute, pants-shitting terror, then you're dead or a stone cold moron.

BIDEN FOR PRESIDENT!

[gaia.plateau]

in a world with a near-naked dude wearing shiney-black leather underwear, a leash, and a hockey mask... packing a dan wesson .44

Dude that's just an average Wednesday night for me. And don't forget the burlap hood. What I'm talking about is helicopter buggies!

That's what that cheap Canadian beer does to you!

I pretty much only drink Guinness, it's aboot $7/pint here.

[AKammenzind]

I pretty much only drink Guinness, it's aboot $7/pint here.

Mmmm, Guinness. GUINNESS FOR PRESIDENT! Who's with me?

[gaia.plateau]

Are we talking like, one pint of Guinness sitting in your oval office? Or a series of them? Or the company? Or just the idea of Guinness? Or the actual corpse of Arthur Guinness? Edited October 11, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[AKammenzind]

Are we talking like, one pint of Guinness sitting in your oval office? Or a series of them? Or the company? Or just the idea of Guinness? Or the actual corpse of Arthur Guinness?

Well, I was thinking a series of pints. That way no one pint would be too powerful... sort of like checks/balances. The main difference being that it'd actually work... because unlike politicians, a good pint won't fuck you over, and will actually give you something back for your money. Guinness also wins in the taste department, despite Palin's milfing it up.

Along these lines I had also considered voting for a body of whores, as they are also much more trustworthy than old rich men in suits. Decided against that though because pimps would eventually enter into the equation somewhere, and the whole mess might end up resembling a birthday party at the Vatican.

I just can't get enough of this 7 crown!

[Bulldog_916]

Obama, no contest.

I'm not even passionate about Obama, I was never a fan in the primaries, he's said some things that scare the hell out of me, I don't think he has any idea the mess he's stepping into, and there's no way he's going to get us out of this economic hole, but it's a real statement about how awful a choice McCain is that I'm this passionate about Obama.

My honest opinion is that this race is really about the VP's. Whichever candidate wins will wind up dead and we'll wind up with a president that we didn't really elect. Obama will likely be assassinated by the good ol' boys down south within a year of his inauguration and Biden will be president, which I am absolutely fine with. McCain is old, frail, sick, and has one foot in the grave with the other on a banana peel. And then we'll be faced with the very real prospect of President Sarah Palin. And if that doesn't fill you with absolute, pants-shitting terror, then you're dead or a stone cold moron.

BIDEN FOR PRESIDENT!

I think Obama will end up having an unprecedented Secret Service. These guys are gonna be among the elites. I really hope nothing happens to either of them while they are in office, but I see your point as scary as hell. Hoping to high hell nothing happens. -Fingers Crossed-

[gaia.plateau]

I was thinking a series of pints. That way no one pint would be too powerful... sort of like checks/balances. The main difference being that it'd actually work... because unlike politicians, a good pint won't fuck you over, and will actually give you something back for your money. Guinness also wins in the taste department, despite Palin's milfing it up.

That's definitely better than just one pint, because it would lose its creaminess after 30 minutes or so thereby compromising its ability to lead. Instead of secretaries of defense, state, etc., you can have secretaries of pour, surge, and settle, and they'll all be in charge of refilling the glass. You should probably appoint me as foreign minister of chugging.

I would fuck a pint of Guinness before Palin.

Edited October 12, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[TheScotsman]

Draught cans! MMMMM... although, if left in a pipe case in the sun for a few hours, then opened they turn to gigantic black fountain-grenades.

Guinness+trying to make an Irish Carbomb+summer sun+opening can in band tent=mad, pissed, rather dripping pipe major. I venture that anytime you touch off a beer-grenade, it's pretty much a fact it's going on the person least likely to be appreciative of the situation. Nothing like marching to mashed bands covered with stout. It's a sure sign of a good games.

No Guinness lasts more than 20 minutes, it's a fact of nature. If your pint has more than 5 rings you need to switch to a non-alcoholic beverage... I highly recommend any American beer.


Aye, I would hit the Guinness too. Damn, with Palin you stand a good chance of paying child support for a kid with gills and flippers, or worse.

[Lysolz]

Protest vote.

The two party system is epic fail.

Indy/3rd Party '08 (doesn't matter which one, just make a stand!)

Me personally? Chuck Baldwin.

[cemab4y]

Oct 18. Looks like the media has crowned Obama as the winner. I vote in Virginia, and I just sent in my absentee ballot. Virginia is very tight.

[TheScotsman]

Just last night, Senator Biden guaranteed that if Senator Obama is elected, we will have an international crisis to test America’s new president.
ABC News reports that Joe Biden said the following at a fundraiser in Seattle yesterday: "It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. ... Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/20...-to-suppor.html

If that doesn't completely terrify anyone, then they are brain dead. The VP candidate is saying elect us, and we will get you a nice international crisis of the Cuban missile stature.... hmmm.

Reports from both camps say there have already been NSA briefings to both candidates in the event they are elected, that there is "something" urgently pending in the world, and the president elect will have to hit the ground running.

May you live in interesting times...

That border 7 miles north is starting to look inviting. Save me a spot Gaia!

[gaia.plateau]

That border 7 miles north is starting to look inviting. Save me a spot Gaia!

People are getting crazier every day up here too... fortunately I live only a few hours from totally remote and survivable wilderness.