Copper?

[dom209]

hows it goin guys... i am workin on my own hookah, (makeing one from scratch) and am wondering wat to make the stem out of... my 1st thought was to use brass but apparently that is very hard to find. so i was looking at the copper pipe they use for hot water pipes in homes... i was wondering if using copper could have any saftey or heath hazards. does anyone know weather it is safe? i want to get this thing done! And since brass is nowhere to be found, and if not copper what should i use? all input greatly appriciated

[Dereksd]

hows it goin guys... i am workin on my own hookah, (makeing one from scratch) and am wondering wat to make the stem out of... my 1st thought was to use brass but apparently that is very hard to find. so i was looking at the copper pipe they use for hot water pipes in homes... i was wondering if using copper could have any saftey or heath hazards. does anyone know weather it is safe? i want to get this thing done! And since brass is nowhere to be found, and if not copper what should i use? all input greatly appriciated

hurry up and find out nic so we can knock this thing out.


Edited June 28, 2008 by Dereksd

[SimplexCoda]

ok, this question has been asked about a billion times and everyone ends up argueing. I will tell you what the people at the hardware store have told me time and time again when i ask them. EVERY metal emits toxic fumes when heated. BUT, each metal has a different temp at which that begins happening. I was told time and times again by these people at different hardware stores that the temp at which cooper begins to do that, that a hookah will never cause it to do that unless your trying to heat your bowl with a torch. So i guess to settle it once and for all, try it. If you smoke it and begin getting a headache or something stop and wait for it to go away, then later try it to see if it happens again. If you feel fine from the begining and can smoke it a time or two i suppose that it is ok.

[teq]

The problem with copper isn't so much the fumes it releases when heated, but the fact that it can oxidize easily. If you expose an oxidized metal to moisture, you're bound to get rust. Copper also has the additional property of turning your water green.

If you need a material for a downstem, PVC is very resillient and won't impart or absorb flavor. Pyrex is the best option, but that's getting somewhat exotic.

Most hookahs use brass, though.

[MeHT]

Unlike iron, copper oxidizes only on the surface, so it won't rust through. A lot of hookahs, especially traditional, actually use copper stem tubes.

[wongxiao]

The problem with copper isn't so much the fumes it releases when heated, but the fact that it can oxidize easily. If you expose an oxidized metal to moisture, you're bound to get rust. Copper also has the additional property of turning your water green.

If you need a material for a downstem, PVC is very resillient and won't impart or absorb flavor. Pyrex is the best option, but that's getting somewhat exotic.

Most hookahs use brass, though.

Eh? As I understand it, PVC presents serious health hazards, especially if its going to be exposed to heat (ie if it goes anywhere near the bowl). If I had to use plastic, I would probably use ABS (although I'm not sure if it would affect the flavor). Pyrex is a good idea, I think, but then sealing it to metal may prove difficult (EDIT: you can buy Pyrex online, just google "borosilicate tubing"). I think there are some food-safe epoxies out there which may do the trick.


OP--Just out of curiosity, what are you planning on building the base from? Are you going to build it or use a premade vase? Edited June 28, 2008 by wongxiao

[fifthmanstanding]

Regardless of the copper/brass debate. Brass is not hard to find. You'll be wanting a seller of brass tubing I imagine, my main supplier for basemetal is www.metalliferous.com . They're kind of old school, you'll need to download the .pdf catelogue and then place a call to the company for pricing. I've been dealing with them for years without a problem.

refer to http://www.hookahforum.com/?showtopic=14563 for more information on copper and brass.

and a quick note, niether metal 'rusts' as it is being called, both metals 'oxidize'. Rust is iron oxide (FeO) and has a plethora of differences in terms of properties than that of brass or copper oxides, which must be taken into account when speaking about smoking safety. Rust can poison whereas certian forms of copper oxides are anti-fungicides. One has to be very specific when discussing these things. Edited June 28, 2008 by fifthmanstanding

[SimplexCoda]

fifth is very correct. Also in terms of brass vs copper, brass is an aloy that is high in brass, so they are simular only brass is less pure. Once again try it and tell us to end this debate once and for all.

[fifthmanstanding]

fifth is very correct. Also in terms of brass vs copper, brass is an aloy that is high in brass, so they are simular only brass is less pure. Once again try it and tell us to end this debate once and for all.

I think you meant 'high in copper' lol. Yeah brass is a zinc/copper alloy.

[SimplexCoda]

ya i meant high in copper. i was in a hurry typing, im at work so im doing several things at once.

[hday]

The material you pick depends on what amount of money you want to spend and how high of a final product you want. If you've got a two liter bottle and some plastic tubing for hoses, buy a copper stem. If you're buying a vase and hoses, lathing your own adaptors, go with stainless.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?p...7&top_cat=1

Schedule 10 Stainless Steel 304 half inch pipe for $6.33 a foot. Even if the stem is 5 feet tall, it's still only $25 and shipping. I have no idea what shipping would be, but anything under 3 feet shouldn't cost too much. You could get a larger schedule if you'd like, but a wall diameter of .083" is plenty thick. 304 is the same stuff they make kitchen appliances with, so it's completely food and heat safe. Plus, you can clean it with minimal effort. Worth the money if you ask me.

[fifthmanstanding]

If you're going to work stainless or any steel for that matter make sure you know how to weld or braze being that that's the only way you're going to join any SS pieces short of cold connection. And as far as making it look like a hookah and not a pipe, you're not going to be able to forge anything over 1/16th inch without a forge or a sufficient heat source. and even then, forging something pipe shaped is just annoying. Brazing or welding SS is also a pain because of heat control, SS is a bitchy mistress in terms of heat control.

To examine a regular hookah, egyptian, would show you that they're lathed out from steel sheet or brass or whatever on a metal lathe. If you have access to a metal lathe more power to you. But make sure you know what you're doing. It'd be a shame to ruin a many thousand dollar machine.

one thing of note is that a lot of hookahs are lathed from sheet steel annealed and pressed upon a wooden blank that is already lathed in the shape and size of that specific stem using a metal lathe and lathing tools. Often times you'll even see them lathed in smaller pieces and then brazed together with silver solder or silver brazing rod.

Honestly, unless you're a blacksmith or a metal smith with access to the nessessary tools and shop space you're better off not working in the metal too much beyond a basic pipe soldering. Beyond that, it can be very dangerous if you're ill equipped and don't have proper ventilation or safety measures to control both fumes and fire. So please be safe.

[ryno]

The problem with copper isn't so much the fumes it releases when heated, but the fact that it can oxidize easily. If you expose an oxidized metal to moisture, you're bound to get rust. Copper also has the additional property of turning your water green.

If you need a material for a downstem, PVC is very resillient and won't impart or absorb flavor. Pyrex is the best option, but that's getting somewhat exotic.

Most hookahs use brass, though.

I would MUCH rather use copper than pvc. I've been around pvc when its been buring and giving off those toxic fumes (used to build potato guns), and trust me, they are not healthy at all. Better safe than a statistic

[fifthmanstanding]

The problem with copper isn't so much the fumes it releases when heated, but the fact that it can oxidize easily. If you expose an oxidized metal to moisture, you're bound to get rust. Copper also has the additional property of turning your water green.

If you need a material for a downstem, PVC is very resillient and won't impart or absorb flavor. Pyrex is the best option, but that's getting somewhat exotic.

Most hookahs use brass, though.

I would MUCH rather use copper than pvc. I've been around pvc when its been buring and giving off those toxic fumes (used to build potato guns), and trust me, they are not healthy at all. Better safe than a statistic

pvc is just damn deadly.

[hday]

If you're going to work stainless or any steel for that matter make sure you know how to weld or braze being that that's the only way you're going to join any SS pieces short of cold connection. And as far as making it look like a hookah and not a pipe, you're not going to be able to forge anything over 1/16th inch without a forge or a sufficient heat source. and even then, forging something pipe shaped is just annoying. Brazing or welding SS is also a pain because of heat control, SS is a bitchy mistress in terms of heat control.

You can buy a tap and die at a hardware store. You'll need a higher schedule level, depending on the thread count, but you don't have to weld or braze anything. In my opinion, the best hookahs are the ones you can take completely apart. Why weld it up when you don't have to? You could even buy a threaded plate that you could screw right on top of a mason jar, if you went the cheap route. With a die, you can make perfect fits. Even a little plumbers tape or lock-tight could be used, but it would make it harder to take apart, if you ever wanted to.

It's funny how stainless is so hard to work with because of heat issues, but is a culinary blessing for the same reason.

[fifthmanstanding]

oh so you're talking more of making just a downstem. I was thinking you were saying forging the hookah stem part that's usually lathed. Yeah lock and die would be good if you're making a downstem in that manner. That's really great. I hadn't thought of that.

[bkx76]

I will say this once again about copper and heat:

Take a look at what brew kettles for beer making and stills for liquor are made out of. Liquor making you run at a temp around 172° and with beer you bring it to a boil.

Both operations deal with some of the same things as a hookah: liquid & heat

Anyone drink beer or booze?

[wongxiao]

I will say this once again about copper and heat:

Take a look at what brew kettles for beer making and stills for liquor are made out of. Liquor making you run at a temp around 172° and with beer you bring it to a boil.

Both operations deal with some of the same things as a hookah: liquid & heat

Anyone drink beer or booze?

heh... your hookah burns much hotter than 172°. Although, I'm uncertain as to how much of that heat gets transmitted to the stem, but I still imagine it isn't really comparable.


Safety issues aside, I think that copper is best avoided for the oxidation issue alone...sounds like a pain.

[nicayotte]

Lets not get into this again there is past topics on this... look at them and read up otherwise please end this debate for the sake of flaming the forums.

[SimplexCoda]

heh... your hookah burns much hotter than 172°. Although, I'm uncertain as to how much of that heat gets transmitted to the stem, but I still imagine it isn't really comparable.


Safety issues aside, I think that copper is best avoided for the oxidation issue alone...sounds like a pain.

You wanna know how hot the stem gets? Take the bowl off while your smoking its and touch it. Trust me, it doesnt get that hot. Most of the heat stays in the bowl. Like i have said before again and again try it and let us know so that everyone can stop whining about how copper is so terrible for you, but brass is so terrible, no copper, no brass.

[wongxiao]

lol, if someone uses Cu in their hookah, that really doesn't offend me. I'm not looking for a fight. Yes, it has been discussed much, but I don't think any of the discussion is invalid... and maybe it just the mods doing a good job cleaning up, but I haven't seen alot of flame in the threads I've read. As I said, because the safety issue may never be resolved, it is my opinion that copper isn't as good as steel or aluminum because I wouldn't want to have the hassle of the oxidation, which I've heard can be pretty inconvenient. Personally, I'd most prefer to use lab-grade borosilicate, so no metals at all. If someone is willing to deal with the oxidation, hey, that's great. I can have a preference, right?

I swear, it's like anyone says the word "copper" around here and people suddenly get all high-strung. I was just tossing in my two cents. I don't recall flamebaiting or whining about anything, but if I've offended anyone, I'll apologize now.



Simplex: well thank you for addressing my uncertainty. Concerning trying it--we don't know the nature of the latent period or effective doses of whatever copper may or may not be giving off at hookah-smoking temperatures... and even if someone got sick from it, it would be hard to be sure that the copper was the cause.

[fifthmanstanding]

I will say this once again about copper and heat:

Take a look at what brew kettles for beer making and stills for liquor are made out of. Liquor making you run at a temp around 172° and with beer you bring it to a boil.

Both operations deal with some of the same things as a hookah: liquid & heat

Anyone drink beer or booze?

heh... your hookah burns much hotter than 172°. Although, I'm uncertain as to how much of that heat gets transmitted to the stem, but I still imagine it isn't really comparable.


Safety issues aside, I think that copper is best avoided for the oxidation issue alone...sounds like a pain.

couple of things need to be clarified here I think. The nature of oxidation mainly.

Copper has two methods of oxidatizing: firescale and regular old oxidation.

Firescale comes from the exposure of copper to an extreme amount of heat. Oxygen, dirt, buildup and what not on the base metal burn off at high temperatures and makes cupric oxide. It looks like a film of black ash that builds up on the metal and is removed by quenching the metal in water and then soaking in a 5 minute bath of Sodium Bisulfate, or 'pickle' as we call it in the metalshop. It should be mentioned that firescale is the product of heat and flame, from about 900-1300 degress farenheit and upward. It's known that coal runs a gamut of 300-750 farenhiet when well lit and spikes irradicately due to air currents and what not. You doubtfully will ever see firescale on a hookah part. It just doesn't happen at coal temperatures. Torch temperatures yes, but coal is highly unlikely, mainly because the coal sits over top of a bowl, and that heat travels to colder, or heatless, places; meaning that the downstem in the water for one is going to cool it down tremendously.

The type of oxidation you DO have to worry about seeing with copper is precipitate oxidation. Meaning that over time a crusty kind of buildup will occur and you'll often see it around the gaskets. Now it's very important to note what causes this kind of oxidation. We're going to assume this is a controlled scenario and you don't have any patina chemicals laying exposed in your house (sulfuric acid or nitric acid for instance), you don't leave your copper hookah out in the rain, you don't wash it in clorox, and you just are generally a competent hookah owner.

That being said, you should only wash your downstem in lemon juice and neutralize that juice with baking soda water. A lot of what people don't understand is that copper reacts very rapidly to the pH of water or any other acid/base since it's a pretty reactive metal. Look at the stature of liberty for instance. Under normal wear and tear the pH of the tap water you use in a hookah will cause tarnish/oxidation. It'll look kind of dull and grey in color, and then eventually a blue green color will build into an actual crusty layer, in metalsmithing and sculpture this is called a 'patina' or a coloring of the metal that can be utilized for aesthetics. But for a hookah this is considered dangerous. Now I'm not going to get into health debates over this since it's not really my area. What I CAN tell you is that oxidation of copper is damn obvious if you look, and all you need to remove it is steel wool. That kind you buy at the hardware store. Give the copper a rub and it'll remove 95% of the physical oxidation. The rest can be removed by using simple chemicals if you're so inclined. One sort of half assed way to go about that is to once or twice a month you could very simply soak it in some Brass-O compound, which you can get at a hardware store. But that won't permeate the metal too much. What you really want to do if you're serious about it is to purchase some Sodium Bisulfate (not bisulfite) and mix that with a small amount of water in some sort of dish that will effectively hold and allow for submersion of the stem. Leave that for about an hour and it'll eat away the oxidation like a pro. After you're done with that just wash it real good and clean with some baking soda to neutralize that bisulfate. And you're good to go. Bisulfate is a simple compound used to maintain pool pH, it's used in silver smithing and it's also in your toilet bowl cleaner. It's not some big evil chemical devil, so fear mongering isn't really needed over it. Just be smart and neutralize it is all.

Another thing of note is that when copper oxidizes...you're not going to see MASSIVE amounts of buildup, it'll look like a wash of paint at best provided you're taking care of your hookah and changing the water out. The most issue you'll likely have with it is towards the top third of the stem, water vapor will have risen to that part of the downstem due to the fluctuations of heat and cold made by the inverse setup of coal on top/water on the bottom. This condensation area will continually run down the downstem and then rise again in vapor form. That process will keep a constant flow and so you can see how the pH of the water will begin to oxidize the copper. Oxidation is not some big devil monster that's going to swallow up your lungs, it's a very slow process of buildup that can occur over some months, it's not immediately lethal in most cases, it just requires you to take care of your hookah and be smart about keeping it in check. Cleaning it and letting it dry very very well is most important. When I wash mine I follow up by throwing the stem (mine's all metal) on a baking sheet and putting it in the oven on broil for about 5 minutes. 250 degrees won't cause firescale and it'll dry pretty quickly. But that's just me.

Another thing: the exact same can be said of brass. Brass has a high copper percent most times. So oxidation is the same process, just a bit different looking.

Hope this clarifies some things. Happy smoking. Edited July 14, 2008 by fifthmanstanding

[PatronHookah]

Good questiong. I started building my own Hookah a few weeks ago, went out and bought $50 worth of copper tube, and fittings. A buddy of mind brought this very same question to my atention. I decided not to use it, for all of the unknown reasons surounding this idea. Yes sure it may or may not be harmfull, but is that a risk you are willing to take? I am not.

So now i am on the hunt for Titanium, but my findings are slim, and it does not look hopefull. There for i will more than likely scrap the idea.

This is a photo of my progress.

[TizaNabi]

I've used those butane stove lighters forever and in the past took the metal straight tube on the end off when I wanted a great, and I mean terrific diffusser. They have 3 or four slots on the sides which are your holes, lengthen your shaft, and keep the noise down. I got to agree with the chap about different metals and different heat levels. On many of those great homemade diffussers I had to put up with the water getting brown or green quite quickly which I put down to rust. Now, no one drinks that water .
Headaches, are not the problem. 2 years ago on this forum someone uploaded a 5 page very detailed report about this subject. After all water comes into our home in copper piping. Its the heat (or maybe not enough). But what kills are toxic levels which build up in the liver and will not wash away until death do us part.

[darkone253]

My only beef would be the oxidation as well, but that would still make me avoid it. I wouldn't wanna deal with green water every time I smoked.