Abortion Right Or Wrong

[Stuie]

[momatik]

I feel like it's morally wrong.

Does that mean it should be deemed illegal? No.

Because people will do it anyway.

[judgeposer]

Anyways. What a woman does with her body is her own -ing business.

Said it before, say it again. Society may deem it to be immoral. But as long as it's not illegal there ain't fuck all your going todo about it.

Might as well get back to barking at the moon.

JD

That cannot be the case since laws are changed all of the time either through the legislature or overturned precedent at the highest court level, which, in our case, is he Supreme Court. We can attribute that sort of constant change to that 'barking at the moon.'

I feel like it's morally wrong.

Does that mean it should be deemed illegal? No.

Because people will do it anyway.

Feel - interesting word choice.

Something should not be legal because people will do it anyway - that's not a good enough reason. We have a criminal culture in America that continues to commit crimes, which, according to your reason, would negate the reason for laws prohibiting those behaviors we now deem criminal.

You're right to distinguish morality from the law in the way you did though. Should all immoral behavior be made illegal - no. But the mere tendency some people have to commit crimes does not render the laws that we use to prosecute those same offenders useless or somehow ineffective.

[Johnny_D]

Change the law to making illegal and you drive it back underground and women end up dying from botched back-street abortions.
Isn't that immoral?

I stick to my moon-howling thank you.

JD

[gaia.plateau]

I'll tell you one thing... if abortion is ever re-criminalized in Western civilization, I am buying so much stock in coat hangers.

[Johnny_D]

I'll tell you one thing... if abortion is ever re-criminalized in Western civilization, I am buying so much stock in coat hangers.

Gaia - That made me laugh right out loud

[gaia.plateau]

I'll tell you one thing... if abortion is ever re-criminalized in Western civilization, I am buying so much stock in coat hangers.

Gaia - That made me laugh right out loud

That's what I'm here for, brother.

[TheScotsman]

I'll tell you one thing... if abortion is ever re-criminalized in Western civilization, I am buying so much stock in coat hangers.

And that is the one simple truth that the pro-no-choice fanatics won't admit. You can bet in typical American fashion, any overturn of Roe would be followed by some insanely long mandated minimum revenge-sentencing. Hell, we gotta fill all those privately run for-profit prisons somehow.

[TizaNabi]

I hold that we ask the baby itself, hear her/him out and then decide.

[TizaNabi]

As a religious Jew who holds by the Commandment "Be fruitful and multiply and fill up the Land" we practice birth control. We "Practice" and G-D "controls" the results. Of course I'm referring to married couples.
I am at the average rate in my family. One of my brothers has ten children, one 9, myself 7 and one 4.
One son-in-law is the oldest of 12 and they are going for a fourth soon.One son-in-law comes from a family of 16 and one of 8 So far soon we'll have 8 grandchildren and I'm 55 now hope G-D to have more. According to Judaism the Commandment of "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the Land" is fullfilled with the advent of grandchildren. You aren't paying welfare for them so don't worry. We've only a 4.5 million Jews in Israel.

[r1v3th3ad]

Anyways. What a woman does with her body is her own -ing business.

Said it before, say it again. Society may deem it to be immoral. But as long as it's not illegal there ain't fuck all your going todo about it.

Might as well get back to barking at the moon.

JD

Change the law to making illegal and you drive it back underground and women end up dying from botched back-street abortions.
Isn't that immoral?

I stick to my moon-howling thank you.

JD

I'll tell you one thing... if abortion is ever re-criminalized in Western civilization, I am buying so much stock in coat hangers.

Gaia - That made me laugh right out loud

holy hell, you guys keep stealing the ideas from my head...

I know my grandparents, as much "immoral" it is in the christian faith, believe in abortion because one of my mother's cousins had a back-alley abortion in her teens and almost died...afraid of facing family.

[gaia.plateau]

I hold that we ask the baby itself, hear her/him out and then decide.

Well, since embryos cannot speak, I guess you'd have to ask someone whose mother seriously considered abortion, but chose adoption instead, right?

I wouldn't have held it against her. Edited September 13, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[Apoc Genesis]

True. But everyone's situation is different, and I don't feel its our place to say what a woman who we don't know and don't really care anything about should do with her potential baby. My honest opinion is that the human consciousness needs something larger than a 8 week old embryo to hold it. I see a embryo as a potential vessel for a human life, and should that embryo get destroyed that spirit will just move to the next available one. Look at one of them, we pretty much look like fish for the first few weeks anyway. Then again I also don't think life ends after death, but thats a whole other can of worms ^^

Personally, I would hope that I would be responsible enough to see that I would not get in that position, cause no matter what you do its heart breaking, and I would hate to have my kid be something I wasn't ready for.

As for the torah quote, cancer cells are fruitful and multiply REALLY fast. I dont think we have the reources to spread across the world like a dissease anymore.

[Bulldog_916]

If anything, we have to scale back our populations. The rate at which we consume is going to come to a head soon. No one wants to conserve resources because no one wants to have any less than anything they can afford. We are a consumption nation. Even despite a sagging economy, we still consume at rates not known in most of the world. We replace our cell phones once a year, sometimes two, sometimes less. We buy clothes we only wear for a month then give away. We buy TVs on credit or loan. Water is going to be the next gold. Food is going to be a resource available only to those who can afford it. Health care is already a resource only people working good jobs can afford. Having more than 2-4 children at this point in history could be soon seen as irresponsible. It isnt that I want to see people die. I just want humanity to start scaling itself to what it's resources can withstand. If we dont do it voluntarily, starvation, thirst, mother nature, or just pure war will do it for us. We're already seeing wars over resources, Darfur is a good example. Human suffering has always been a foe and always will be. But I think this generation will be the first in several generations to see it come to the U.S. Cutting taxes wont work for most middle and lower class families because there is so little income to get back. We had better look at population control measures as a way to help us as opposed to harming us. It works in nature. We just happen to be one step ahead of nature for the time being. Wont last though, never does.

[gaia.plateau]

If anything, we have to scale back our populations.

Bulldog has the right idea. We need to stop thinking about whether abortion is right or wrong, and start thinking about how to implement forced abortions.

[TheScotsman]

If anything, we have to scale back our populations.

Bulldog has the right idea. We need to stop thinking about whether abortion is right or wrong, and start thinking about how to implement forced abortions.

It is obvious that something has to be done, but I would tend to think that in normal human fashion, it will be ignored until nature itself limits population, most likely through some super-germ.

Now I gotta rethink my line of thought, when I find myself agreeing with both Gaia, and Bulldog I must be wrong.

[momatik]

Anyways. What a woman does with her body is her own -ing business.

Said it before, say it again. Society may deem it to be immoral. But as long as it's not illegal there ain't fuck all your going todo about it.

Might as well get back to barking at the moon.

JD

That cannot be the case since laws are changed all of the time either through the legislature or overturned precedent at the highest court level, which, in our case, is he Supreme Court. We can attribute that sort of constant change to that 'barking at the moon.'

I feel like it's morally wrong.

Does that mean it should be deemed illegal? No.

Because people will do it anyway.

Feel - interesting word choice.

Something should not be legal because people will do it anyway - that's not a good enough reason. We have a criminal culture in America that continues to commit crimes, which, according to your reason, would negate the reason for laws prohibiting those behaviors we now deem criminal.

You're right to distinguish morality from the law in the way you did though. Should all immoral behavior be made illegal - no. But the mere tendency some people have to commit crimes does not render the laws that we use to prosecute those same offenders useless or somehow ineffective.

Precisely.

Law is not something women will consider when making the decision between aborting a baby or not.

The other issues at the time outweigh whatever the legality of abortion is.

So I say, keep doing what we are doing.
-Keep it legal
-Continue education

However, if abortion was always illegal, I would vote to keep it that way.

The fact that it's illegal would cause people to believe it's wrong and dangerous.

In my opinion, this would discourage the option of abortion, and therefore, discourage the rate of pregnancy among teens.

By legalizing it, we have made abortion acceptable.

This association is permanent. By unlegalizing it, we would not make it unacceptable. That's the key here.

[Johnny_D]

If anything, we have to scale back our populations.

Bulldog has the right idea. We need to stop thinking about whether abortion is right or wrong, and start thinking about how to implement forced abortions.

It is obvious that something has to be done, but I would tend to think that in normal human fashion, it will be ignored until nature itself limits population, most likely through some super-germ.

Now I gotta rethink my line of thought, when I find myself agreeing with both Gaia, and Bulldog I must be wrong.

Agreed. I read Bulldog's response this morning and thought it was bang on the money.

JD

[Pilgrim]

Definetely pro-abortion. Like said before, making it illegal will only bring back risky back-alley abortions.
Furthermore, an abortion is not something that women decide to do as an easy solution, but the LEAST BAD solution.
In some debates I get the feeling from anti-abortion leagues that they think women undergo abortions as easy as going shopping. The emotional recovery starts after the abortion, women don't go to an abortion clinic smiling and glad that they're gonna be released from their "burden" in a couple of hours.

[erufiku]

If anything, we have to scale back our populations.

Bulldog has the right idea. We need to stop thinking about whether abortion is right or wrong, and start thinking about how to implement forced abortions.

It is obvious that something has to be done, but I would tend to think that in normal human fashion, it will be ignored until nature itself limits population, most likely through some super-germ.

Now I gotta rethink my line of thought, when I find myself agreeing with both Gaia, and Bulldog I must be wrong.

Agreed. I read Bulldog's response this morning and thought it was bang on the money.

JD

Also agreed.

But then there is the tricky question whether the government should have the power to venture into the private sphere so far as to limit births... Think China; a lot of people call the "One child policy" an infringement of basic human rights.

edit: sorry if that point has been raised already, I just skimmed through the thread for now. Edited September 24, 2008 by erufiku

[Bulldog_916]

That's why it wouldnt be a mandate. There would be a taxation system to make people think about having more than 2 kids. After the second one, your taxes would go up X-amount per child, X being what most people wouldnt want to pay. If you do have the money to support your kids, your house, and the taxes, then yea, have more, but you're going to be paying more. That's the only way to do it without infringing on human rights. Under the taxation system, you're just asking those who want to have more if they REALLY want to have more. Still your right to have lots of kids, its just a right that comes with a high price.

That's the way I would do it.

[gaia.plateau]

Definetely pro-abortion.

You're a horrible, horrible person.



Jk, I also love running around and pushing pregnant women down stairs.

[erufiku]

That's why it wouldnt be a mandate. There would be a taxation system to make people think about having more than 2 kids. After the second one, your taxes would go up X-amount per child, X being what most people wouldnt want to pay. If you do have the money to support your kids, your house, and the taxes, then yea, have more, but you're going to be paying more. That's the only way to do it without infringing on human rights. Under the taxation system, you're just asking those who want to have more if they REALLY want to have more. Still your right to have lots of kids, its just a right that comes with a high price.

That's the way I would do it.

As far as I know, you can gave a second child in China, but it will cost you a pretty shiny penny.

Now, as far as world population is concerned, it's growing at an unprecedented rate. At the same time, the birth rates of developed countries have plummeted, and, in many cases, become negative. Pardon for sounding elitist, but smart, rich people don't want brats, and certainly not a soccer team with a bench of substitutes. So your idea is just eugenics brought into the XXI century. Not to say that I disagree, but I hope you see that it's impossible to bring into the real world.

Now that I think about it, I don't really see the merit of discussing 'overpopulation' as far as it pertains to the developed countries. After all, the increased quotas for immigration are a direct response of the government to the low birth rate.

[shishasmoke1904]

If you need to get one then by all needs get one. It's better to have one done then having insignificant funds and not having the time to take care of it. Edited October 18, 2008 by shishasmoke1904

[melanko]

Women's Choice.

/thread