Abortion Right Or Wrong

[JillyIsJustKidding]

This is coming from a woman right here...

I honestly think it is the WOMAN'S choice...No matter what

I choose to stay "neutral" when it comes to this.

Thousands of women get raped or molested everyday...Wtf would they wanna carry a man's...Or MONSTER'S child to be exact when they NEVER wanted it at all in the first place?

Yes, I understand that every child has the right to be born. But there are complications like the ones I listed above.

Hell, a woman might wanna keep the child...That's her choice and its her body. There shouldn't be a damn law saying she can't

/rant.

[Lysolz]

Morality is subjective, so I dislike "right vs wrong" arguments because it always boils down to semantics and individual beliefs. Personally, I feel like it's "wrong", but at the same time it's a damn good thing it's legal. I'm sure the sound arguments for pro abortion have been addressed already, so I wont' bother, but regardless of one's view on abortion alltogether, it should be undeniable that late-term abortions are wrong.

"One day I walked into an operating room without knowing what I was walking into, and the doctors were in the middle of performing a C-section. It was actually an abortion by hysterotomy. The woman was probably six months along in her pregnancy, and the child she was carrying weighed over two pounds. At that time doctors were not especially sophisticated, for lack of a better term, when it came to killing the baby prior to delivery, so they went ahead with delivery and put the baby in a bucket in the corner of the room. The baby tried to breathe, and tried to cry, and everyone in the room pretended the baby wasn't there" - excerpt from The Revolution: A Manifesto

[Tuscani]

someone I love recently got pregnant. she has been on soo many dif forms of birth control trying to prevent it, but it happened, and I beleive that it should be her choice and only her choice to keep it or get rid of it. her body, no law should determine what she does with it.

[Johnny_D]

Morality is subjective, so I dislike "right vs wrong" arguments because it always boils down to semantics and individual beliefs. Personally, I feel like it's "wrong", but at the same time it's a damn good thing it's legal. I'm sure the sound arguments for pro abortion have been addressed already, so I wont' bother, but regardless of one's view on abortion alltogether, it should be undeniable that late-term abortions are wrong.

"One day I walked into an operating room without knowing what I was walking into, and the doctors were in the middle of performing a C-section. It was actually an abortion by hysterotomy. The woman was probably six months along in her pregnancy, and the child she was carrying weighed over two pounds. At that time doctors were not especially sophisticated, for lack of a better term, when it came to killing the baby prior to delivery, so they went ahead with delivery and put the baby in a bucket in the corner of the room. The baby tried to breathe, and tried to cry, and everyone in the room pretended the baby wasn't there" - excerpt from The Revolution: A Manifesto

Whilst I Appreciate the depth of thought, the above statement rings wholly untrue.

1. You don't just 'walk' into an operating room
2. It's highly, VERY HIGHLY, unlikely that an abortion is performed at such a late stage. There is more to this story than reported above.
3. 'killing' via 'bucket of water' is rather ineffective in a modern operating room. The fetus can be terminated before abortion I would imagine via drugs.

I would suggest that the above is nothing more than propaganda at best.

I can't find much about the above exert from the internets. So I can't prove it either way. But I would suggest that just logical though suggests this story is either misreported, or worded in such a way to provoke 'outrage' by the unwashed masses.

JD

[judgeposer]

Morality is subjective, so I dislike "right vs wrong" arguments because it always boils down to semantics and individual beliefs. Personally, I feel like it's "wrong", but at the same time it's a damn good thing it's legal. I'm sure the sound arguments for pro abortion have been addressed already, so I wont' bother, but regardless of one's view on abortion alltogether, it should be undeniable that late-term abortions are wrong.

"One day I walked into an operating room without knowing what I was walking into, and the doctors were in the middle of performing a C-section. It was actually an abortion by hysterotomy. The woman was probably six months along in her pregnancy, and the child she was carrying weighed over two pounds. At that time doctors were not especially sophisticated, for lack of a better term, when it came to killing the baby prior to delivery, so they went ahead with delivery and put the baby in a bucket in the corner of the room. The baby tried to breathe, and tried to cry, and everyone in the room pretended the baby wasn't there" - excerpt from The Revolution: A Manifesto

Whilst I Appreciate the depth of thought, the above statement rings wholly untrue.

1. You don't just 'walk' into an operating room
2. It's highly, VERY HIGHLY, unlikely that an abortion is performed at such a late stage. There is more to this story than reported above.
3. 'killing' via 'bucket of water' is rather ineffective in a modern operating room. The fetus can be terminated before abortion I would imagine via drugs.

I would suggest that the above is nothing more than propaganda at best.

I can't find much about the above exert from the internets. So I can't prove it either way. But I would suggest that just logical though suggests this story is either misreported, or worded in such a way to provoke 'outrage' by the unwashed masses.

JD

That except was written by a gynecologist/obstetrician, though he has now become more famous as a Congressman and presidential candidate--Ron Paul.

[gaia.plateau]

That except was written by a gynecologist/obstetrician, though he has now become more famous as a Congressman and presidential candidate--Ron Paul.

Ah, that explains everything. I think JD was reading it as though it wasn't written by a total raving lunatic.

[judgeposer]

That except was written by a gynecologist/obstetrician, though he has now become more famous as a Congressman and presidential candidate--Ron Paul.

Ah, that explains everything. I think JD was reading it as though it wasn't written by a total raving lunatic.

Perhaps. For anyone interested, Ron Paul wrote a book entitled Abortion and Liberty, which I've attached. [attachment=2473:Ron_20Pa...0Liberty.pdf]

[newjacksm]

I think there should be a choice and whether or not depending on the situation I think it is right.

[Lysolz]

That except was written by a gynecologist/obstetrician, though he has now become more famous as a Congressman and presidential candidate--Ron Paul.

Ah, that explains everything. I think JD was reading it as though it wasn't written by a total raving lunatic.

Perhaps. For anyone interested, Ron Paul wrote a book entitled Abortion and Liberty, which I've attached. [attachment=2473:Ron_20Pa...0Liberty.pdf]

Thanks! I'd never read this.

Why anyone would use "raving lunatic" to describe such a man is beyond me. To each his own.

[Johnny_D]

Well, It's interesting.

I still have serious doubts about the overall validity of his 'story'. The language, the prose, the unlikely events detailed
all point to emotive writing that is inclined to point the gentle reader towards the writers own bias.

I, personally, would not be using it as a point of reference.

Back on topic, it's still a woman's choice.

JD

[gaia.plateau]

Why anyone would use "raving lunatic" to describe such a man is beyond me. To each his own.

It should be noted that we're talking about "such a man" who would, while seeking to lead the most militarily and economically powerful country on the planet, actively and firmly argue that the UN should collapse, eliminating all sanctioning power against potential nuclear threats such as North Korea and Iran and allowing them completely free reign to invade whomever they wished, and eliminating all security measures against nuclear weapons and materials being sold on the black market to informal violence groups like Al Qaeda, to just name the very tip of the crazy iceburg.

I'd like to see all human society collapse into an anarchistic Mad Maxian nuclear wasteland as much as Ron Paul clearly would, but the difference is that I openly acknowledge that I am a raving lunatic.

I'd qualify by saying we shouldn't derail the thread, but I don't think that the metaphorical train can be derailed after it's come to a complete stop, its cars have been unhinged, and the conductor has gone home to bang his wife.

[Lysolz]

Fair enough, as previously stated - to each his own.

As far as the "language, prose, and unlikely events" detailed in the story (as JD pointed out) goes, one might find it interesting that Ron Paul didn't even write the book himself.

I find it very respectable though, that despite his anti-abortion views, he feels it's not a decision to be made by the federal government. That's what America is all about, leaving each other the fuck alone even if you disagree with them.

You may not agree with him on much, but as a hookah smoker you have to admire how much he stresses the importance of civil liberties. You better believe if anti-tobacco legislation is on the floor, he's going to vote against it.

Back on topic, I take the same stance - I disagree with it, but it's the woman's choice. And since I have a swinging dick, I'm in no position to make judgment.

[Hippo_Master]

Ron Paul was a vagina doctor??? Jesus... I don't think the simple fact that he is in fact "Ron Paul" has anything to do with how correct his view on abortion is.

Anyway, this should be a woman's choice over-all. Let them vote. Yet there is only one way to control it.

Rape is common, but pregnancy from rape is really not that common. I don't believe rape can be considered a legitimate reason to back up a pro-abortion stance.

Most abortions occur in low-income households. Just like the death-penalty. There's one simple solution to both these problems. STOP it at the source.

Mass Vasectomies in the ghettos! Edited November 8, 2008 by Hippo_Master

[Bulldog_916]

Your solution makes about as much sense as dropping a nuclear bomb on your car because the fuel injectors need replacing. It's overkill.

[AKammenzind]

Your solution makes about as much sense as dropping a nuclear bomb on your car because the fuel injectors need replacing. It's overkill.

It would make for some really great TV though. They could have an entire channel dedicated to shows about aborted fetuses and vasectomies. Imagine it; game shows, reality TV, Cooking Shows. The possibilities are endless!

[Hippo_Master]

Your solution makes about as much sense as dropping a nuclear bomb on your car because the fuel injectors need replacing. It's overkill.

It would make for some really great TV though. They could have an entire channel dedicated to shows about aborted fetuses and vasectomies. Imagine it; game shows, reality TV, Cooking Shows. The possibilities are endless!

There's a show to become Paris Hilton's BFF!!!!!!!! so it's completely plausible.

[AKammenzind]

There's a show to become Paris Hilton's BFF!!!!!!!! so it's completely plausible.

Yknow, I'm glad that someone finally agrees with me that she looks like a violently aborted fetus!

Just imagine though, how much more amusing an otherwise horridly boring soap opera would be... if all the main characters were actually fetuses that'd been pickled and turned into puppets, and were voice acted by the likes of John Rhys-Davies, Patrick Stewart, and Morgan Freeman. I'd definitely spend the majority of my waking hours watching it.

[dw914er]

pro choice. I typically never side with the idea of taking someones RIGHT to choose. It may not be for everyone (some might have religious or other moral issues attached too it), but they deserve the right if its needed

[Fluffy]

I used to be pro choice but then something happend to me that completly turned my world upside down. if pro choice is 1 and pro life is 2 i would not be able to describe my opinion as a number coulor or any mixed feeling. i saw how everything can be rationalized into a right awnser and i felt that both were wrong choices but to not have a an opinion was wrong. i saw there both just as bad to be pro choice is wrong is wrong to let a soul from developing and to be pro life is wrong because it well let a soul not have a powerfull expiernce that may change thier life.

[Evildave]

What some people don't realise in all this is that women will want abortions, for all kinds of reasons. When you remove the POSSIBILITY of LEGAL, SAFE and AVAILABLE abortions..... well, you find yourself with backalley, dangerous dodgy knitting needles and bent coatrack abortions, all the while degrading and shaming women ( and for the record, my grandmother had friends die from this shit back in the days)

It's bad enough that most religions will always be against the thing ( because more babies == more converts. ka-ching!) , but considering women as nothing more than breedable cattle is fucking wrong.

Up here in quebec, there used to be a lot of problems with exactly this kind of thing, and the catholic church litterally used to rule our lives. Then one day , we simply woke up, and just started making the rules not according to religion, but simpoly actual sense. The church started going even crazier... and sudeenly found itself with a slight problem : people stopped going to church.

Nowadays, the Catholic church has been pretty much killed up here in the province of Quebec, and abortion is a non-issue since it's available thru the public health care system.

These kinds of policies also translate into better social harmony over time.

[Fluffy]

I used to be pro choice but then something happend to me that completly turned my world upside down. if pro choice is 1 and pro life is 2 i would not be able to describe my opinion as a number coulor or any mixed feeling. i saw how everything can be rationalized into a right awnser and i felt that both were wrong choices but to not have a an opinion was wrong. i saw there both just as bad to be pro choice is wrong is wrong to let a soul from developing and to be pro life is wrong because it well let a soul not have a powerfull expiernce that may change thier life.

religion is the oldest form of dictatorship.

[gaia.plateau]

religion is the oldest form of dictatorship.

Actually... I'm pretty sure that dictatorship is the oldest form of dictatorship. Edited December 6, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[kikkoman1231]

Ron Paul also wrote an excerpt about abortion in his book "The Revolution".

It speaks of his residency as a doctor, and unknowingly going into an operating room thinking it was a childbirth. Instead, much to his surprise, it was an abortion of a 6 month-old fetus. Doctors removed the fetus from the mother and tossed it into a wastebasket while it tried to cry and gasp for breath. Everyone pretended the fetus was not even in the room.

I'm anti-abortion definitely. Why couldn't this be like the old days? Man up and take care of the kid... Edited December 10, 2008 by kikkoman1231

[TigerLord]

I have not read every posts but still wanted to give my opinion.

As a medical student in a Canadian province (where abortion is legal) and have seen it done and assisted even on a few occasions, I feel like something must be said.

Some people will argue life begins at conception, others at the birth. Saying life begins at conception is scientifically correct, in that cells are actually alive and replicating and dividing. If you insert philosophy and religion then you open a huge can of worms.

Fundamentally, I think every women has the right to say what happens to their body. No abortions are practiced (at least legally) after 20ish weeks of pregnancy, which is the maximum legal time frame in which someone can be aborted, unless a court order is provided. Some doctors won't do it after 6 weeks, or 12. Some refuse to even learn the procedure in medical school.

I really hate it when I read a patient's file and see its their 2nd, 3rd or even 4th (!!!) abortion. People using abortion as contraception absolutely ticks me off, yet there's nothing that can be done beyond trying to reason with them or offer an alternate method. Usually, every women who get an abortion are suggested to get an ICD and can be installed right after.

The again, having seen many ill treated children, some people should never have children. Foster homes can be even worse at times. Also, think about rape. Some teenagers (or even women) who get brutally raped, should they not have the right to refuse to go through pregnancy, a long and life altering process, one in this case, that would remind them of possibly the worst possible day of their entire lives?

In the end, it's to each his own to decide whether science or religion should dictate the legal fundamental rights to women and their say over their own body. Personally, I do everything I can to separate religion from my medical practice, in my opinion, it has no place in medicine.

[TigerLord]

It speaks of his residency as a doctor, and unknowingly going into an operating room thinking it was a childbirth. Instead, much to his surprise, it was an abortion of a 6 month-old fetus. Doctors removed the fetus from the mother and tossed it into a wastebasket while it tried to cry and gasp for breath. Everyone pretended the fetus was not even in the room.

Propaganda.

A fetus at 6 months old would have severely under-developed lungs and would not have the ability to cry. Unless this abortion was performed in 1960 or in Mexico, there is no way this ever happened.

The things people will believe because "I read it in a book".

The pictures they will show you on anti-abortions sites are extreme and 50 years old. At 12 weeks the fetus is the size of dime. HOWEVER, At 6 months old it will be significantly bigger, but they don't do abortions at 6 months old here, because the baby is already too big. You actually need a special vaccum to get the head out (or a C-section) and it's totally gruesome.