Peta, Where Do We Draw The Line?

[Rayneuki]

This better not degrade into some sort of 'lolol PETA, People eating tasty animals! lololol'. I'll have to smash some heads.

PETA – People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. But what is ethical treatment? Is it giving them a home for the winter? (Such as their Backyard Angels program?) Or is it claiming that milk is filled with puss because the cows are not treated properly, and that it causes osteoporosis ? I don't know anymore...



If one looks into the past, one can see why an organization such as PETA formed. There were horrible things being done to animals (serial ports being placed in cats heads ect.) and there still are. But is it really as bad as they say? Is our milk really coming from farms where the cows have disease in their udders? Or is it just isolated incidents that they take and explode all over the media, in order to spread their own agenda?



Recently on How it's Made they showed a Dairy farm. It was free range, the cows walked in once a day to a machine. It was totally up to them, they stood there as the machine cleaned their udders and took the milk. One cow had a slight infection, causing a bit of puss or blood to come out... The cow was immediately tagged for a vet visit and the milk was discarded. I've seen other dairy farms that do the same thing, if the puss were to get into our systems it has a chance to cause extremely intense infections... Why would they leave it there and put themselves in danger? One might say 'Well it was all a show, to make themselves look better.' If this Dairy farm (the one on How it's Made) was really abusing their animals, wouldn't it be cheaper (and easier) to just say 'no' to the show?



Chickens. Another subject that is heavily debated by PETA. On their sub-site Kentucky Fried Cruelty They make claims that KFC horribly abuses these creatures. This may (or may not) be true. The chicken farm shown in the video on the site has no markings (from what I saw) and one cannot say for sure that it's even still open to this day. One cannot assume that it is truly KFC's farm. For that matter, I have an uncle (in AR) who owns a chicken farm, it's not as bad as everyone says. I went in there, the chickens were all healthy and alive (and mean as hell), I saw nothing horrible or cruel going on.



Perhaps I'm just naive... But another thing that bothers me is their Sea Kittens campaign. It really angers me, and I love fish. I have two aquariums (one thing that they claim as cruel), and my fish are my pride and joy. They're adorable in a strange sort of way, it's relaxing and wonderful. But is it so bad that I love fish so much, that I would be willing to eat them? I love the way fish (and other sea-food) tastes!



"Fish live in water that is so polluted, you would never dream of drinking it. But you're ingesting this toxic brew—bacteria, contaminants, heavy metals and all—every time you eat fish." A quote from the 'Fishing Hurts' site. I know that our fish (in the oceans and such) contain mercury, but what isn't polluted these days? Vegetables are extremely polluted... We use so many chemicals to grow them... why would I want to eat that?!



I don't know, I just noticed that this is almost a page in word and decided to wrap it up... I'm just so confused, when do we draw the line? One could claim that plants can feel (if you've ever grown a plant you can understand what I mean, especially carnivorous plants). They retract from pain, they live until they turn brown, so that stalk of broccoli you bite into could be screaming in pain on the inside. Yet, torturing plants is better than animals? Just because animals can look at us?

[joytron]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMBcPxI5od0

That is why we need animal protection groups, the problem is we can't just draw a line but its obvious when it has been way overcrossed.

Plants do not feel pain, that is just rediculous. Carnivorous plants are just reflex traps and are in no way related to animals. Edited December 4, 2008 by joytron

[Rayneuki]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMBcPxI5od0

That is why we need animal protection groups, the problem is we can't just draw a line but its obvious when it has been way overcrossed.

Plants do not feel pain, that is just rediculous. Carnivorous plants are just reflex traps and are in no way related to animals.

I'm not saying that we don't need them. (At this moment in time I cannot watch the video, I'm at school and they blocked youtube but not peta videos, weird I know.) I agree with their Backyard Angels, and alot of the other things. ASPCA is a group that I personaly fund every year, I'm just saying where do we draw the line. When does it truly become animal cruelty? The obvious cases are just that, obvious, but some things such as saying that we shouldn't eat at KFC because there's some video out there that claims to be from one of their chicken farms. I'm sorry, I want some hard, cold proof before I quit eating somewhere.

How do you know they don't feel pain? Seriously, have you asked a plant? I'm just saying, it's the same as saying that a dog can't see color. Some things, we just don't know. What makes plants have less rights than any other living thing on this planet? They were here before us, such as many other creatures that we try to protect.

I mean, PETA and orginizations like it, that take it a few steps too far piss me off. A few years back if you wore fur coats outside you got red paint thrown on you (nearly happened to my mother in AR). What's the point of it? I understand 'fur is murder!' ok... But how do YOU know just by LOOKING AT IT that it's real fur? And for gods sake, you've just further ruined the reason why that animal died in the first place. At least it died for a reason, now there is no reason. You get what I mean? I'm not saying "PETA SHOULD BURN!" I'm saying that they really need to take a step back...

This is what really started this for me: Cooking Mama Kills Animals! . Fun game, yes, but so completely wrong. When I get a turkey it's plucked already, frozen, and the giblits are all nice and neatly stuffed in a little bag. It's like they make it look disgusting to try and make people become vegitarian.

Personaly I think the tofu turkey looks disgusting.

[joytron]

I am assuming you do not honestly believe vegetables feel pain and I am sure they don't so I don't think that is even a point.

The video is about dolphin massacres in japan, and its really brutal. They catch dolphins, drag them on their backs behind trucks while they are still alive, and then brutally murder them and let them asphyxiate. There is a quote by Gandhi that says you can judge a civilization by the way it treats its animals, something I do believe says a lot about ours. I think right now we have a long way to go before animals are actually treated humanely, and until we start reaching that point we can not necessarily draw a line. In your response to KFC most chickens dont ever touch the ground but I dont think thats why people shouldnt eat there. I honestly think no one should eat at KFC because it is really gross.


I actually ate a real turkey for thanksgiving but tried some tofurkey at Trader Joe's (a supermarket) and it was quite good, and just as ugly as a turkey itself. I think the point is you are going to get some really radical people in any kind of protection group and there is nothing wrong in what they do. I personally have never had someone reprimand me for eating meat, even though I know many vegetarians. I dont know of any cases were PETA has crossed the line, and being anti-fur coat sure isnt one of them.

Freshwater aquariums are not really cruel but saltwater ones are awful. People go to tropic locations and toss dynamite into coral reefs to stun the fish, allowing them to float to the surface. They catch the few that are still alive and transport them overseas, where as few as 20% survive. THe reefs will never be the same as coral only grows an inch a year, and many of the reefs will never recover. I think animal groups do a good job educating us as to what is really going on with the food we eat. Edited December 4, 2008 by joytron

[fineout]

i swim underwater with a large speargun and shoot fish square in the heads..then stab them so they stop squirming, dismember them, and then enjoy their delicious flesh..im not a bad person.

[Stuie]

I think PETA started off with a noble goal and somewhere along the way they late crazy people in. They use to be just like ASPCA but they let nutcases take over.

Perfect Example - Sea Kittens

I looked at the Backyard Angels project which is a noble idea. But they don't seem to want you to know how they build these things just give them money. I think a lot of that goes to their organization for $265 I can get the wood and screws from Home Depot, Straw from a Local farmer, rent a truck from U-Haul and still have enough left over to buy 2 - 40lbs bags of Blue Buffalo Dog Food (What I feed my dogs, some of the best stuff) and fill the truck back up with gas.

Personally PETA lost all credibility with me years ago.

[dafunk5446]

Freshwater aquariums are not really cruel but saltwater ones are awful. People go to tropic locations and toss dynamite into coral reefs to stun the fish, allowing them to float to the surface. They catch the few that are still alive and transport them overseas, where as few as 20% survive. THe reefs will never be the same as coral only grows an inch a year, and many of the reefs will never recover. I think animal groups do a good job educating us as to what is really going on with the food we eat.

This was a prefered method in the past but is not used as much anymore. What occurs more is the use of cyanide. They fill a squirt bottle full of water, drop a couple cyanide tablets in to the squirt gun, and then squirt them with the concoction to stun them. Im sure you can guess how good this is for the fish.

Not all saltwater fish are caught in this method either. Alot are now offered CB (captive bred). The fish that are most likely collected in questionable ways come from the philippines, well actually most indian and indo-pacific fish are collected in this way. Fish which are native to hawaii and the caribbean tend to be collected in better manners.

The damage to reefs as a side effect of blasting and cyanide exposure is less of a problem (not condoning the behaviour, or saying it is not a problem). What is more of a concern is the "natural" destruction that is occuring, due to bleaching. Experts are not sure what is causing the large scale bleaching, higher levels of CO2, global warming, etc.

Not all coral grows as slowly as you stated. SPS (small polyped stony) corals typically have rapid growth rates up to a couple inches a month. These corals are not however responsible for the reef that we know today, aka non-reef-building-corals.
The statements does hold true for a few of the true reef building corals (LPS (large polyp stony) corals and encrusting SPS corals) but even those can have very fast growth rates. What depends on the growth rate of coral is light intensity and food for the coral. What is slowing the growth seems to be the loss of phytoplankton and zooplankton due the large influxes of cyanide in the indo-pacific region.

[erufiku]

I agree that PETA has gone too far. Cruel treatment of animals is, without a doubt, wrong. But is the above mentioned dolphin practice comparable to slaughtering animals for food? I think this is where organizations such as PETA have gone wrong - they brought both of these cases to the same level. They really need to get their heads out of their asses because right now they are causing more harm than good.

Of course, I understand the point that at this point of time the Western World could easily switch to being vegetarian due to unprecedented wealth and availability of food. At the same time, I don't think that anyone has the right to tell me what I should (or shouldn't) be cooking for dinner. They should keep their guilt-trips and half-assed morality to themselves and let me enjoy my steak.

As for the paint campaign... these people should be dragged out on the streets and promptly shot.

[Rayneuki]

Like I said, I have always been under the idea that Peta is just trying to make people become veg due to guilt and fear. I'm thinking of going veg (with fish and possibly chicken in my diet) for a period of time to aid in weight loss and cut down the gluten in my diet. It's easy, afordable, and a good way to bring the health up in your body... But I just can't see not eating steak for the rest of my life. I'm sorry, I like the way cow flesh tastes between my teeth.

To the Fish collection:
In my knowledge most Saltwater fish are bred. www.aquabid.com is one place to buy them directly from breeders, it's a big thing for those of us really into fish-keeping. But the wild capture happens in freshwater too. Most of what happens (for freshwater cichlids at least) is that a group pays to go down there and hunts along the river. They net the fish and search through them for good genetic traits (good color, new patterns, ect.) then they use them in their breeder tanks (after making them go through a qt of course). They breed like this, and do this practice, due to the lack of genetic diversity that comes from constantly breeding the same fish. If they DIDN'T do that our fish would end up much like some dog breeds (dalmatians come to mind.) and be born with severe medical problems.

To my knowledge (don't quote me) this happens with saltwater too. There's a group on myfishtank.net that went out a while back to do it.

The coral thing... Dafunk is right, coral is dieing because of the lack of food. Coral filter feeds, much like a lot of clams. This makes them hard as holy hell to keep in a tank, so imagine what happens to them when their food supply runs low in the wild? They die. It's the environmental changes more than anything, something that we are responsible for.

The problem with saying that keeping fish in aquaria is cruel stems from dyed fish. You remember those guys that had the neon stuff down their spine? It's actually paint injected into them. It kills about 90% of the fish that this happens to, and now they are removing fins for aesthetics, and printing symbols onto fish. It also comes from not enough information being out there. Keeping a goldfish in a tiny bowl? Not good, he needs at least 10gal and a filter.

But if we stop keeping fish in aquariums... what happens if a species becomes endangered? Then extinct... Our children COULD have seen them if we had have kept them in aquariums in zoos or whatever... But without that... we've even lost the chance to try and revive the species, destroying the food-chain further.


And erufiku, I think the group who did it got sued. A lady got paint on a coat that her husband had just bought her or some bs, she got pissed and just happened to be rich as snot. Sued the holy crap out of them.


Again, I'm not saying that the IDEA of Peta is bad... but with what they do now? They say it's better to keep a mortally injured animal alive than to put it out of it's misery... I say kill the poor thing...

FOR GODS SAKE They have PETA COFFINS: Peta Coffin! Go out in style!

[An1m]

Chickens. Another subject that is heavily debated by PETA. On their sub-site Kentucky Fried Cruelty They make claims that KFC horribly abuses these creatures. This may (or may not) be true. The chicken farm shown in the video on the site has no markings (from what I saw) and one cannot say for sure that it's even still open to this day. One cannot assume that it is truly KFC's farm. For that matter, I have an uncle (in AR) who owns a chicken farm, it's not as bad as everyone says. I went in there, the chickens were all healthy and alive (and mean as hell), I saw nothing horrible or cruel going on.



Perhaps I'm just naive... But another thing that bothers me is their Sea Kittens campaign. It really angers me, and I love fish. I have two aquariums (one thing that they claim as cruel), and my fish are my pride and joy. They're adorable in a strange sort of way, it's relaxing and wonderful. But is it so bad that I love fish so much, that I would be willing to eat them? I love the way fish (and other sea-food) tastes!



"Fish live in water that is so polluted, you would never dream of drinking it. But you're ingesting this toxic brew—bacteria, contaminants, heavy metals and all—every time you eat fish." A quote from the 'Fishing Hurts' site. I know that our fish (in the oceans and such) contain mercury, but what isn't polluted these days? Vegetables are extremely polluted... We use so many chemicals to grow them... why would I want to eat that?!



I don't know, I just noticed that this is almost a page in word and decided to wrap it up... I'm just so confused, when do we draw the line? One could claim that plants can feel (if you've ever grown a plant you can understand what I mean, especially carnivorous plants). They retract from pain, they live until they turn brown, so that stalk of broccoli you bite into could be screaming in pain on the inside. Yet, torturing plants is better than animals? Just because animals can look at us?

1) It's not about KFC, it's about the state of factory farming. Chickens are factory farmed, have their beaks seared off, are overfed, go insane, get stuffed in cages too small to spread their wings (for the ones that lay eggs), get electrocuted to produce eggs faster.

2) The vast majority of dairy farms are not "free range" even the ones that claim to be usually are not. Dairy cows are generally held in small pens and milked via machine for extended periods of time. 10-12 hours a day. Do you actually believe factory farmers make huge profits by letting their cows wander around and milk themselves whenever the cows please? Ridiculous

3) So the fact that the world's supply of fish isn't fit for pregnant women, women that may become pregnant, women that are nursing, or children it's A-okay because "vegetables are polluted too!" great rationale. Buy organic vegetables. Good luck finding organic fish my friend.

4) Vegetables do not have a central nervous system, they do not feel pain. period. Animals feel pain, love, have intricate social relationships, animals have personalities, many have long memories. Cows tend to bond with 4 or 5 other cows that they really like, cows bond with their young and become depressed when farmers take away their veal calf after a week or two and start milking them again. Cows also hold grudges against other cows for YEARS. That's why there's a difference between eating steak and eating tofu.

So let me get this straight:

I'm not saying that we don't need them. (At this moment in time I cannot watch the video, I'm at school and they blocked youtube but not peta videos, weird I know.) I agree with their Backyard Angels, and alot of the other things. ASPCA is a group that I personaly fund every year, I'm just saying where do we draw the line. When does it truly become animal cruelty? The obvious cases are just that, obvious, but some things such as saying that we shouldn't eat at KFC because there's some video out there that claims to be from one of their chicken farms. I'm sorry, I want some hard, cold proof before I quit eating somewhere.

I mean, PETA and orginizations like it, that take it a few steps too far piss me off. A few years back if you wore fur coats outside you got red paint thrown on you (nearly happened to my mother in AR). What's the point of it? I understand 'fur is murder!' ok... But how do YOU know just by LOOKING AT IT that it's real fur? And for gods sake, you've just further ruined the reason why that animal died in the first place. At least it died for a reason, now there is no reason. You get what I mean? I'm not saying "PETA SHOULD BURN!" I'm saying that they really need to take a step back...

This is what really started this for me: Cooking Mama Kills Animals! . Fun game, yes, but so completely wrong. When I get a turkey it's plucked already, frozen, and the giblits are all nice and neatly stuffed in a little bag. It's like they make it look disgusting to try and make people become vegitarian.

Personaly I think the tofu turkey looks disgusting.

1) Once again vegetables do NOT have the capacity to feel pain. 

2) How about some perspective: your mom almost got paint thrown on her! People poach rare animals, people take away lives for fur, but you are angry at a radical group because they would throw paint on a coat, a material possession. A material possession that either cost a life or is intended to appear as though it costs a life or multiple lives.


3) Tofurkey is delicious

I think PETA started off with a noble goal and somewhere along the way they late crazy people in. They use to be just like ASPCA but they let nutcases take over.

Perfect Example - Sea Kittens

I looked at the Backyard Angels project which is a noble idea. But they don't seem to want you to know how they build these things just give them money. I think a lot of that goes to their organization for $265 I can get the wood and screws from Home Depot, Straw from a Local farmer, rent a truck from U-Haul and still have enough left over to buy 2 - 40lbs bags of Blue Buffalo Dog Food (What I feed my dogs, some of the best stuff) and fill the truck back up with gas.

Personally PETA lost all credibility with me years ago.

1) Most people don't have the stomach for radical groups. While radical groups are pushing the envelope, fighting for equality, change, and rights in all areas of social life, the average liberal, conservative, and moderate is too squeamish to do anything but offer verbal support and condemn anything other than collecting signatures fo pettitions. Throwing paint on a celebrity brings attention to issues, posting graphic videos draws attention to issues, playing nice does not. The spinelessness of the average liberal and the non progressive nature of apathetic and more conservative people leads to the need for radicals. 50years ago liberals were saying "Well I think black people should have the right to vote but that Martin Luther King he just goes too far!!!" in the late 60's / 70's it was "Well I think black people should be treated as equal but really should they be allowed to marry white women!?!?"


When it comes to political and social change liberals are practically useless, except as tools to be used by people that actually have a vision of where the future is going and the willpower to fight for what they believe in.

I agree that PETA has gone too far. Cruel treatment of animals is, without a doubt, wrong. But is the above mentioned dolphin practice comparable to slaughtering animals for food? I think this is where organizations such as PETA have gone wrong - they brought both of these cases to the same level. They really need to get their heads out of their asses because right now they are causing more harm than good.

Of course, I understand the point that at this point of time the Western World could easily switch to being vegetarian due to unprecedented wealth and availability of food. At the same time, I don't think that anyone has the right to tell me what I should (or shouldn't) be cooking for dinner. They should keep their guilt-trips and half-assed morality to themselves and let me enjoy my steak.

As for the paint campaign... these people should be dragged out on the streets and promptly shot.

1) It is the method in which the animals are slaughtered, not only THAT they are slaughtered which is being spotlighted. 


2) You don't understand the point. Peta promotes veganism / vegetarianism for reasons related to the cruelty in the businesses of factory farming and the fur trade, not simply because products come from animals. I know vegans that have chickens/ cows and drink milk and eat eggs. It's about the TREATMENT of all animals, in all conditions, not just about getting people to stop eating meat.

3) " I don't think that anyone has the right to tell me what I should (or shouldn't) be cooking for dinner. They should keep their guilt-trips and half-assed morality to themselves and let me enjoy my steak."

Nobody has the right to tell you what to do, but you have the right to tell everyone in PETA what to do. Good point.

[Stuie]

3) Tofurkey is delicious

I respectfully disagree...with every fiber and molecule in my being.

Throwing paint on a celebrity brings attention to issues

That's assault, brother!

[Bulldog_916]

An1m, let me be respectful for a second.

1. California just passed a law that says that chickens have to be treated humanely and need at least enough room to flap their wings, stand up, and walk around. Some in the farming community have disputed that and said that if chickens were allowed to do that, they would injure themselves. That wouldnt surprise me. Chickens are pretty dumb animals. I voted for the law, dont get me wrong. But I think the reality will be that the chickens WILL injure themselves much more often. That's going to spur PETA on another rampage saying "Chickens should be totally free-range." Idiots.

2. Most dairy farms treat cows humanely. They are subject to random inspection. One of our family friends owns a dairy farm. I've been on it before. He has a huge range of land that these animals roam and graze on. It's not free range by any means, but it's comfortable. The vast majority of farms in the States and in western civilization are run in this manner. You have to go way out of your way to find a farm that doesnt pay attention to the law. They need to get paid. In order to get paid, they have to remain open.

3. Vegetables are vegetables. Not eating non-organic vegetables because they arent organic is moronic. We've been told for generations to eat our vegetables to be healthier and we're still being told that. Now it's not enough that we ARE eating vegetables, it's gotta be organic vegetables. Once again, we have regulations in place that assist us in raising and mass producing vegetables safely. It's only in very rare circumstances that something totally out there is found. Like the spinach thing, that didnt happen for decades and even this time I bet most people dont remember it even though it was only 7 months ago.

4. I dont agree with fur. But I also dont agree with assaulting someone who's wearing fur. That's just being unreasonable and a bit of a dick. Stop that.

5. Tofurkey is disgusting. Anything other than tasty white bird meat on Thanksgiving isnt worthy.

6. Radicalism doesnt work in debate, and that's what this whole PETA thing is. It's a debate with thinking people over the morals they choose to live their lives by. Being reasonable and appealing to people's reasoning skills works better than throwing paint on someone wearing fur. You're just making yourself look like a radical dick that most people will roll their eyes at and keep on doing what they were doing before.

7. NOBODY knows where these snuff films showcasing animal slaughterings are being shot. They can take any non-descript Russian or Turkish or Polish farm and film there and then claim it's at ABC Farms in French, Texas. Radical groups do whatever they can to get their point across, including deception. PETA is a radical group. They cant be reasoned with because their expectations are unreasonable.

8. Personal story. We were looking for a dog a couple of years back. We went to the ASPCA shelters and looked at dogs. They put us through a questioning process. Not unusual at all. One of the questions was "Where will the dog be during the day and during the night?" We answered truthfully. During the day and night the dog would be out in the backyard. It will have access to the garage for eating and sleeping as it wants. The interviewer basically asked us again, "are you sure?" Kind of unusual, but we answered yes. The interviewer brushed that aside and said "Is there any way you would or could house the dog indoors?" More unusual. We answered in the negative because we own three indoor cats. We were rejected for adoption and that was the reason. In a wrap to the story, we found a dog through my mom's friend and we've been happy with him ever since. He's a backyard dog and is perfectly happy and healthy. This kind of selective adoption process is really unfortunate. You have to answer in favor of letting the dog stay indoors most or part of the day in order to be seriously considered for adoption. Why do you think ASPCA shelters cant get dogs out fast enough and have massive problems with overpopulation? Because they take their interviewing orders from groups like PETA! Dogs are freaking dogs! They spent thousands of years outdoors and didnt die. The dog wont die in the relative luxury of my backyard. Even in the coldest of conditions the garage is still pretty nice compared to outside. Plus he has a doghouse in the garage and a picnic blanket over the doghouse to keep heat in. He's a dog and we treat him like a dog. Anyone that says that keeping a dog outdoors is cruel needs a wake-up call. PETA, STFU. Go away and let me treat my dog like a dog.

[An1m]

An1m, let me be respectful for a second. 

1. California just passed a law that says that chickens have to be treated humanely and need at least enough room to flap their wings, stand up, and walk around. Some in the farming community have disputed that and said that if chickens were allowed to do that, they would injure themselves. That wouldnt surprise me. Chickens are pretty dumb animals. I voted for the law, dont get me wrong. But I think the reality will be that the chickens WILL injure themselves much more often. That's going to spur PETA on another rampage saying "Chickens should be totally free-range." Idiots. 

2. Most dairy farms treat cows humanely. They are subject to random inspection. One of our family friends owns a dairy farm. I've been on it before. He has a huge range of land that these animals roam and graze on. It's not free range by any means, but it's comfortable. The vast majority of farms in the States and in western civilization are run in this manner. You have to go way out of your way to find a farm that doesnt pay attention to the law. They need to get paid. In order to get paid, they have to remain open. 

3. Vegetables are vegetables. Not eating non-organic vegetables because they arent organic is moronic. We've been told for generations to eat our vegetables to be healthier and we're still being told that. Now it's not enough that we ARE eating vegetables, it's gotta be organic vegetables. Once again, we have regulations in place that assist us in raising and mass producing vegetables safely. It's only in very rare circumstances that something totally out there is found. Like the spinach thing, that didnt happen for decades and even this time I bet most people dont remember it even though it was only 7 months ago.

4. I dont agree with fur. But I also dont agree with assaulting someone who's wearing fur. That's just being unreasonable and a bit of a dick. Stop that.

5. Tofurkey is disgusting. Anything other than tasty white bird meat on Thanksgiving isnt worthy. 

6. Radicalism doesnt work in debate, and that's what this whole PETA thing is. It's a debate with thinking people over the morals they choose to live their lives by. Being reasonable and appealing to people's reasoning skills works better than throwing paint on someone wearing fur. You're just making yourself look like a radical dick that most people will roll their eyes at and keep on doing what they were doing before. 

7. NOBODY knows where these snuff films showcasing animal slaughterings are being shot. They can take any non-descript Russian or Turkish or Polish farm and film there and then claim it's at ABC Farms in French, Texas. Radical groups do whatever they can to get their point across, including deception. PETA is a radical group. They cant be reasoned with because their expectations are unreasonable. 

8. Personal story. We were looking for a dog a couple of years back. We went to the ASPCA shelters and looked at dogs. They put us through a questioning process. Not unusual at all. One of the questions was "Where will the dog be during the day and during the night?" We answered truthfully. During the day and night the dog would be out in the backyard. It will have access to the garage for eating and sleeping as it wants. The interviewer basically asked us again, "are you sure?" Kind of unusual, but we answered yes. The interviewer brushed that aside and said "Is there any way you would or could house the dog indoors?" More unusual. We answered in the negative because we own three indoor cats. We were rejected for adoption and that was the reason. In a wrap to the story, we found a dog through my mom's friend and we've been happy with him ever since. He's a backyard dog and is perfectly happy and healthy. This kind of selective adoption process is really unfortunate. You have to answer in favor of letting the dog stay indoors most or part of the day in order to be seriously considered for adoption. Why do you think ASPCA shelters cant get dogs out fast enough and have massive problems with overpopulation? Because they take their interviewing orders from groups like PETA! Dogs are freaking dogs! They spent thousands of years outdoors and didnt die. The dog wont die in the relative luxury of my backyard. Even in the coldest of conditions the garage is still pretty nice compared to outside. Plus he has a doghouse in the garage and a picnic blanket over the doghouse to keep heat in. He's a dog and we treat him like a dog. Anyone that says that keeping a dog outdoors is cruel needs a wake-up call. PETA, STFU. Go away and let me treat my dog like a dog.

1) Chickens MIGHT injure themselves if they can actually move... Instead put them in cages so small theat mobility is impossible, so that their muscles will atrophy, they'll go insane and attempt to peck the chickens in surrounding cages to death and to prevent that you can just sear off all their beaks in advance. I guess I should throw you in prison and then force you to work, for your own good because you might hurt yourself walking to home from work today and we wouldn't want that.



2) Please show me a statistic about "most dairy farms." Do you know that "most dairy farms" are run in the manner that I just stated? Some milk the cows for less time, but they all inundate their cows with anti-biotics, growth hormones, and diets of corn. It gets the cows to market weight much faster, is completely legal and has adverse side effects for cows and humans. Most states have EXCEPTIONS written into anti-cruelty laws that allow for "common farming practices" therefore as long as MOST farmers do something it is LEGAL. That is the problem and that is what most people do not understand. The farmers are not brekaing any laws, but there are certain things that should not be tolerated. There are certain things that endanger the health of the consumer and are very hard on small farm owners, which is why so many go under and get swallowed up by factory farms. I don't know who all of your farming buddies are but I assure the family farm is going the way of the dinosaur my friend and yes I have statistics if you would like some.

- The average American eats more than 200 pounds of red meat, poultry and fish per year. An increase of 23 pounds over 1970. 1

- In 1975, there were more than 660,000 pig farms producing just under 69 million pigs a year. In 2004 there were 69,000, producing 103 million pigs a year. 1

Source 1: USDA Outlook Report No. LDPM13001 www.usda.gov/publications/LDP/may05/Idpm13001.pdf

-Cornell university expects the number of dairy farms in the united States to decline from 105,000 in 2000 to 16,000 in 2020, while the number of cows per farm and total milk production increase. 2
Source 2: “Future Structure of the Dairy Industry: Historical Trends, Projections and Issues” Eddy LaBue, Brent Gloy and Charles Cuykendall. http://aem.cornell.edu/research/researchpdf/rb0301.pdf
-Inspectors are not assigned to the point of kill in any U.S. slaughterhouses. 

- There is no federal law governing the welfare of farmed animals on the farm. Literally nothing. 3
- In the U.S. federal law begins only when animals are transported or arrive at the slaughterhouse. (And even then there is no law regarding the slaughter of chickens or other birds, who make up 95 percent of all land animals slaughtered in the U.S.). 3
- Most States with Major animal industries have written into their anti-cruelty laws exemptions for “common farming practices.” Effectively, then, cruelty is legal as long as its done by most farmers, and you can’t prosecute anyone for it. 3
Sources: 3 David Wolfson Beyond the Law: Agribusiness and the Systematic Abuse of Animals Raised for Food or Food Production


- The modern dairy cow now produces more than three times as much milk as a typical dairy cow did 50 years ago. 665 gallons a year in 1950 to 2,365 gallons a year in 2004. A 355% increase. 4
Source 4: USDA National Agricultural Statistical Services and updated from http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/reports/na...05/mkpr0105.txt
- Most Dairy cows in the U.S. are kept in “Tie-stalls” that confine cows, for most of the year, to a single stall where they are fed and milked. In the Western United States, dairy cows are more likely to be kept outside, but usually they are kept in dirt lots. The exemptions are mostly cows producing milk certified “Organic” but even some of them are not on pasture. 5
- Mastitis, a painful udder infection, affects one in six dairy cows in the United States 5
Source 5: USDA National Animal Health monitoring System Dairy 2002 www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/ceah/ncahs/nahms/dairy/dairy02/dairy02pt1.pdf

I wonder if you still think pus-oozing ,udder infections are as infrequent as you once did. Now here is some food for thought my dog loving friend:

To keep a dog locked up for life in a crate too narrow for her to turn around or walk more than a step or two forwards or backwards would be cruel and illegal, however 80% of sows used for breeding in the United States are kept in this manner during their pregnancies (which is most of their lives because they are made to produce litter after litter with as little time in between as possible), along with 90% of pigs raised for meat are kept in that manner.
Pigs who are very intelligent but happen to taste nice.
I haven’t even touched on processes such as castration of boars, Kosher slaughterhouses breaking rules but being so powerful (because they’re also huge and rich enough to have lots of influence) that Rabbis still confirm their Kosher status and stand behind them when faced with proof. I also haven’t talked about the insane amounts of air pollution, and the outdoor “lagoons” (as factory farmers call them) of animal waste. Those waste ponds have a tendency to run off into groundwater and contaminate water supplies.




3) My point about vegetables was that they are still safe for consumption, generally, even with the pesticides and chemicals in them. You wash them off and your fine, but if you’re uncomfortable with that then you can buy organic and keep pesticides and chemicals out of your body. The same can not be said of fish. We aren’t supposed to eat much seafood anymore because the mercury levels are toxic. Women especially should not eat it when they are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant. That was the point that I was making. The guy said “If vegetables have chemicals on them It’s the same as eating fish!” but it’s really not.




6) The problem with the paradigm that you put forth is the average person is very uninformed, not especially interested in debating, and a mindless consumer. They will also believe anything, if it is told to them enough times. Most people are actually not especially intelligent, however the Average person believes that they are of ABOVE average intelligence and ABOVE average attractiveness. Defense mechanisms kick in whenever you challenge any long held belief, even if it’s just telling people that they have no idea the conditions their food are produced under, and that farmer john doesn’t sit around and milk his cows at 5 A.M. anymore. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw


Here is a video of a “radical” Network TV put him on TV repeatedly where he talked to nice, rationale, main stream, economists. Let’s see where independent thought gets you, even though people label him a “market fundamentalist” or a radical.

Please tell me how ineffectual it is to be a radical. People have this irrational fear of “radicalism.” Being a radical does not equate to being wrong, I am much more skeptical and afraid of the status quo, than people that tend to challenge it.  This is the main conflict between actual progressives, usually labeled radicals, and liberals, whom are actually just slightly to the left of the average conservative. Look no further than Barack Obama the "most liberal member of the seanate" who happens to be a Neo-Conservative. Some political spectrum we have in this country.




7) You need to stop drinking the kool-aid buddy. PETA infiltrates factory farms and takes undercover video, they then report the places. They are well documented, maybe you should actually search for the information about it. I’ve seen multiple stories documented in the media of PETA doing just such things. I understand why PETA throws paint on people, I am not a member of PETA and I have never done this myself, but it doesn't ruffle my feathers. Seriously put it in perspective. People kill a bunch of animals to take their pelts and then bitch to no avail when someone throws paint on them. Absurd.

[TheScotsman]

An1m, let me be respectful for a second.

1. California just passed a law that says that chickens have to be treated humanely and need at least enough room to flap their wings, stand up, and walk around. Some in the farming community have disputed that and said that if chickens were allowed to do that, they would injure themselves. That wouldnt surprise me. Chickens are pretty dumb animals. I voted for the law, dont get me wrong. But I think the reality will be that the chickens WILL injure themselves much more often. That's going to spur PETA on another rampage saying "Chickens should be totally free-range." Idiots.

2. Most dairy farms treat cows humanely. They are subject to random inspection. One of our family friends owns a dairy farm. I've been on it before. He has a huge range of land that these animals roam and graze on. It's not free range by any means, but it's comfortable. The vast majority of farms in the States and in western civilization are run in this manner. You have to go way out of your way to find a farm that doesnt pay attention to the law. They need to get paid. In order to get paid, they have to remain open.

3. Vegetables are vegetables. Not eating non-organic vegetables because they arent organic is moronic. We've been told for generations to eat our vegetables to be healthier and we're still being told that. Now it's not enough that we ARE eating vegetables, it's gotta be organic vegetables. Once again, we have regulations in place that assist us in raising and mass producing vegetables safely. It's only in very rare circumstances that something totally out there is found. Like the spinach thing, that didnt happen for decades and even this time I bet most people dont remember it even though it was only 7 months ago.

4. I dont agree with fur. But I also dont agree with assaulting someone who's wearing fur. That's just being unreasonable and a bit of a dick. Stop that.

5. Tofurkey is disgusting. Anything other than tasty white bird meat on Thanksgiving isnt worthy.

6. Radicalism doesnt work in debate, and that's what this whole PETA thing is. It's a debate with thinking people over the morals they choose to live their lives by. Being reasonable and appealing to people's reasoning skills works better than throwing paint on someone wearing fur. You're just making yourself look like a radical dick that most people will roll their eyes at and keep on doing what they were doing before.

7. NOBODY knows where these snuff films showcasing animal slaughterings are being shot. They can take any non-descript Russian or Turkish or Polish farm and film there and then claim it's at ABC Farms in French, Texas. Radical groups do whatever they can to get their point across, including deception. PETA is a radical group. They cant be reasoned with because their expectations are unreasonable.

8. Personal story. We were looking for a dog a couple of years back. We went to the ASPCA shelters and looked at dogs. They put us through a questioning process. Not unusual at all. One of the questions was "Where will the dog be during the day and during the night?" We answered truthfully. During the day and night the dog would be out in the backyard. It will have access to the garage for eating and sleeping as it wants. The interviewer basically asked us again, "are you sure?" Kind of unusual, but we answered yes. The interviewer brushed that aside and said "Is there any way you would or could house the dog indoors?" More unusual. We answered in the negative because we own three indoor cats. We were rejected for adoption and that was the reason. In a wrap to the story, we found a dog through my mom's friend and we've been happy with him ever since. He's a backyard dog and is perfectly happy and healthy. This kind of selective adoption process is really unfortunate. You have to answer in favor of letting the dog stay indoors most or part of the day in order to be seriously considered for adoption. Why do you think ASPCA shelters cant get dogs out fast enough and have massive problems with overpopulation? Because they take their interviewing orders from groups like PETA! Dogs are freaking dogs! They spent thousands of years outdoors and didnt die. The dog wont die in the relative luxury of my backyard. Even in the coldest of conditions the garage is still pretty nice compared to outside. Plus he has a doghouse in the garage and a picnic blanket over the doghouse to keep heat in. He's a dog and we treat him like a dog. Anyone that says that keeping a dog outdoors is cruel needs a wake-up call. PETA, STFU. Go away and let me treat my dog like a dog.

What will this day come to... I agree (almost) 100%. I find zero wrong with fur or leather. For that matter, the crazies at PETA obviously don't either, at least when it is a profit for them! Remember the cars donated by activist hollyweird celebs a few years back? That viper sure had some nice leather seats, steering wheel, and shift knob. So, I guess they will try to toss paint on you but sure can wrap their activist-mindless-ass in a leather upholstered sports car. How many of them do you think, are listening to a piano? Hmmm, the hammer, catch, and mute are lined with deer hide. (my favourite leather!) Fur/leather is a byproduct of some regular harvest. (excluding the trophy-fur species, some of that is a little over the top.) Animals don't "love" that is stupid. they have a self-protection instinct to stick with the same group. They must "love" milking time too, they all return to the milking barns on their very own, right on schedule. Milking for 8 hours? Man, you have never seen a dairy operation, and whoever told you that bullshite was a lier. Milking lasts 5 minutes twice a day. The machines are on a timed cycle that modulates vacuum levels. Ya, that's 8 hours PETA time. Any time a group gets something THIS wrong, every word from their mouth past that point is pure propaganda, and not worth the time to even call BS. (For that matter cows are expensive, damaging them doing anything detrimental to their health is a great way to wreck your profit.Expecting people to treat their dog like a person is just another example of complete stupidity. Assault is a dangerous tactic to "draw attention", and effectively all it does is make the majority of the people think the organization is full of assholes with nothing better to do than damage other people's paid-for property. What happens when someone mistakes that paintcan for a knife, and fearing for their life, guns you down? We had a year there was no hunting season, the drought had made the fire hazard just too high. The deer were starving to death the next winter, people got killed by deer in the road, all from excessive population... yet PETA would rather see a half million deer starve to death than be harvested by hunters. More illogical silliness!tofu anything sucks. Edited December 5, 2008 by TheScotsman

[An1m]

What will this day come to... I agree (almost) 100%. I find zero wrong with fur or leather. For that matter, the crazies at PETA obviously don't either, at least when it is a profit for them! Remember the cars donated by activist hollyweird celebs a few years back? That viper sure had some nice leather seats, steering wheel, and shift knob. So, I guess they will try to toss paint on you but sure can wrap their activist-mindless-ass in a leather upholstered sports car. How many of them do you think, are listening to a piano? Hmmm, the hammer, catch, and mute are lined with deer hide. (my favourite leather!) Fur/leather is a byproduct of some regular harvest. (excluding the trophy-fur species, some of that is a little over the top.) Animals don't "love" that is stupid. they have a self-protection instinct to stick with the same group. They must "love" milking time too, they all return to the milking barns on their very own, right on schedule. Milking for 8 hours? Man, you have never seen a dairy operation, and whoever told you that bullshite was a lier. Milking lasts 5 minutes twice a day. The machines are on a timed cycle that modulates vacuum levels. Ya, that's 8 hours PETA time. Any time a group gets something THIS wrong, every word from their mouth past that point is pure propaganda, and not worth the time to even call BS. (For that matter cows are expensive, damaging them doing anything detrimental to their health is a great way to wreck your profit.Expecting people to treat their dog like a person is just another example of complete stupidity. Assault is a dangerous tactic to "draw attention", and effectively all it does is make the majority of the people think the organization is full of assholes with nothing better to do than damage other people's paid-for property. What happens when someone mistakes that paintcan for a knife, and fearing for their life, guns you down? We had a year there was no hunting season, the drought had made the fire hazard just too high. The deer were starving to death the next winter, people got killed by deer in the road, all from excessive population... yet PETA would rather see a half million deer starve to death than be harvested by hunters. More illogical silliness!tofu anything sucks.

1) I have never seen PETA advocating throwing paint or blood on people. In members of an organization do something, it is not the same as an organization doing something.


2) Please come back when you have something to offer about factory farming other than unfounded conjectures. 

3) Factory farming in the U.S. is a LOT different from factory farming in the EU, maybe you're confused and think it's the same everywehere. it isn't.

4) Please show me a video of the happy cows wandering in to be milked for 5 minutes and then going to frolic in the grass once again. I guess that the USDA is wrong in their assessments of cows, how much time they spend in doors, how much living space they have. And I also suppose that when mother cows become depressed after their young are stripped away after a couple of weeks, and spend all of their free time searching for their calf, trying to find its scent and revisiting the last place that they saw it, they'r ejust mindlessly following some instinctual urge to be with other cows. 1

Source 1: Peter Singer and Jim Mason "Meat and milk Factories"

Why is it that people who clearly don't know what they're talking about, have never bothered to research anything, insist on making provacative statements and claiming to be correct. Go find some foundation for your claims and then you can be taken seriously. Otherwise, go do some research and be quiet until you'e finished.

[Bulldog_916]

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDi...ives/6100.1.pdf

Read these regulations. These are for cattle ante-mortem, before slaughter. The regulations for inspection are high. Even cattle with abnormal temperature are rejected. Any swelling and the animal is rejected. Abnormal lesion and the animal is rejected. You would be a fool to think that it's any less for dairy cows.

People are extremely suspect about where their food comes from and how it's treated. ANY bad news causes the entire industry to suffer as a result. Do you really think that dairy cows are milked for 8 hours per day? It's an absurd number.

[Rayneuki]

The fish thing is idiotic. To my knowledge (a doctor told me this lately, I asked about it.) The 'pregnant wemon shouldn't eat fish' only applies to shellfish any more. Most fish you buy at the grocery or get in a resturaunt is farm rased. I'm sorry, if the fish had that much mercury in their system they would be affected by the heavy metal poisoning. EVERYTHING is affected by heavy metal poisoning.

Cows:
Which is cheaper? Make sure your cows are well kept, well fed, healthy, and disease free or Unhealthy, unhappy, diseased, and sick?
The first one of course. If there really WAS puss in our milk, we'd be seeing people getting sick from it. And don't you go "well that's what lactose intolorence is", That's bullshit. Lactose Intolorence is the inability to process the protine molocule of Lactose. If milk WAS full of puss we would see AIDS victims dieing from drinking it. Seriously, Puss contains THOUSANDS of deadly germs and viruses. I'm pretty sure it's cheaper on the farmers to dodge lawsuits than not care.

Chickens:
Really, who gives a crap? You can cut it's head off and it'll still live. There was one chicken that still had a friggin PERSONALITY after having it's head removed. Ya know, the one that lived for about 5 years without a head. It only died because it choked on a peice of corn.


If it's 'ethical' to go that far with animals and protecting them, when will it be bad to kill Roaches? They're animals, they're just doing what is right for them, what they know. Flies, gnats, fleas, ticks, how do we have the right to kill them? Murder them by the thousands! For gods sake flies live for hours on fly paper.
We should let all the spiders live too! Even the black widdows! The humans should move if they have an insect or spider infestation in their house instead of getting it cleaned out.

You see? This is what I mean. If you're going to protect animals, you may as well spread it to everything.
What about mice and rats for that matter? How do we have the right to kill them? If you use the peta logic, killing them would be cruel. So if your house is infested with mice, that carry fleas and diseases, don't kill them!

(Sorry for the spelling errors, I'm at school with no spell check)

[noca$h]

Animals eat other animals.

Mammals = Humans = Animals.

Nature wins, PETA loses.

Btw this Cooking Mama Game that PETA has so awesomely taken the time to make. Is, in the words of Jules, the most fucked up, repugnant shit I've ever seen. Are you kidding me? Are they going to make Emeril and Bobby Flay flashes now because they cook? Youd figure that people with such talent would put it to something more useful to their lives.

[inino]

most statistics are biased in one way or another. for example: smoking shisha is worse than smoking cigarettes. when they test smoking shisha they burn the tobacco at the same temperature as cigarettes which is biased.

most sources on this matter are going to be biased as well. its very hard to find a source that is both unbiased and intelligent.

that being said, I feel that eating meat and killing animals is perfectly fine if you arent being wasteful about it.

also eating tofurkey is hypocritical becuase it means you want the taste of meat but dont want animals to die. if you are truely disgusted by meat and killing animals you would only eat vegetables.

[An1m]

The fish thing is idiotic. To my knowledge (a doctor told me this lately, I asked about it.) The 'pregnant wemon shouldn't eat fish' only applies to shellfish any more. Most fish you buy at the grocery or get in a resturaunt is farm rased. I'm sorry, if the fish had that much mercury in their system they would be affected by the heavy metal poisoning. EVERYTHING is affected by heavy metal poisoning.

Cows:
Which is cheaper? Make sure your cows are well kept, well fed, healthy, and disease free or Unhealthy, unhappy, diseased, and sick?
The first one of course. If there really WAS puss in our milk, we'd be seeing people getting sick from it. And don't you go "well that's what lactose intolorence is", That's bullshit. Lactose Intolorence is the inability to process the protine molocule of Lactose. If milk WAS full of puss we would see AIDS victims dieing from drinking it. Seriously, Puss contains THOUSANDS of deadly germs and viruses. I'm pretty sure it's cheaper on the farmers to dodge lawsuits than not care.

Chickens:
Really, who gives a crap? You can cut it's head off and it'll still live. There was one chicken that still had a friggin PERSONALITY after having it's head removed. Ya know, the one that lived for about 5 years without a head. It only died because it choked on a peice of corn.


If it's 'ethical' to go that far with animals and protecting them, when will it be bad to kill Roaches? They're animals, they're just doing what is right for them, what they know. Flies, gnats, fleas, ticks, how do we have the right to kill them? Murder them by the thousands! For gods sake flies live for hours on fly paper.
We should let all the spiders live too! Even the black widdows! The humans should move if they have an insect or spider infestation in their house instead of getting it cleaned out.

You see? This is what I mean. If you're going to protect animals, you may as well spread it to everything.
What about mice and rats for that matter? How do we have the right to kill them? If you use the peta logic, killing them would be cruel. So if your house is infested with mice, that carry fleas and diseases, don't kill them!

(Sorry for the spelling errors, I'm at school with no spell check)

1) Mercury builds up, eat enough seafood and it can build up inside of you. It won't come from eating one clam but if you eat plenty of them, very frequently, it becomes very unhealthy.


2) On cows: you offer a false dichotomy. It's most profitable to feed them an unnatural diet of corn which makes them unhappy and unhealthy. Then you must constantly give them anti-biotics to reduce the risk of infections from a diet they are not suited for.

3) I never said there was puss in anyone's milk but since you people keep on bringing it up, PASTEURIZATION. Without pasteurization A LOT of people WOULD be getting VERY VERY VERY ill from dairy. So you have no idea how much puss is any of the milk that you drink.

4) On animal ethics: I am a buddhist, I am an atheist and a nihilist. There are no objective truths but I do not kill anything. I do not kill insects, roaches, mice or anything else. I actually prevent other people from killing them and remove the animals from precarious situations whenever possible. I started practicing buddhism at 14 and I can count the number of insects or animals I have been directly responsible for killing on two hands. Most of them were accidental, like while I was trying to rescue them. 

"We" as humans do not have the RIGHT to kill anyone or anything. People will do whatever they want to, the question is about ethics. Is it ethical to exterminate a rat infestation or some other thing that poses a hazard to your family's health? PETA wouldn't have any trouble with that. You, along with many other people keep coming up with silly straw man arguments about PETA. Why don't you actually try attacking positions PETA ACTUALLY holds, instead of inventing positions and attributing them to PETA for the purpose of attacking them.

most statistics are biased in one way or another. for example: smoking shisha is worse than smoking cigarettes. when they test smoking shisha they burn the tobacco at the same temperature as cigarettes which is biased.

most sources on this matter are going to be biased as well. its very hard to find a source that is both unbiased and intelligent.

that being said, I feel that eating meat and killing animals is perfectly fine if you arent being wasteful about it.

also eating tofurkey is hypocritical becuase it means you want the taste of meat but dont want animals to die. if you are truely disgusted by meat and killing animals you would only eat vegetables.

1) "Most Statistics" are biased? No. You're talking about a flawed experiment, yielding flawed results. Though statistics can be manipulated in clever ways, I gave you people cold hard facts, from the USDA. The number of dairy farms is biased? The number of cow udder infections is biased? No they're facts, facts which you may or may not like but facts nonetheless.


2) I agree with what you say about eating animals except I would add that I want people to be HUMANE and ETHICAL when they deal with the animals. Not abusive and ruthless in their search for profits and lack of caring for other beings.

3) Do not pretend to know my reasons for not eating meat or my reasons for eating Tofurkey. Do not pretend to know whether or not I am "disgusted" by "eeating meat and killing animals" do not pretend to know precisely what I would do if even if I did feel as you claim I feel.

At least make some sort of decent argument if you're going to go around calling people hypocrites.

[AKammenzind]

I eat lots of pita all the time... but PETA just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[ColibriDon]

In regards to the opening question, "Peta, Where do you Draw the Line?", I draw the line completely around PETA. (People Eating Tasty Animals...sorry, I had to. haha)

Seriously, whenever I hear anything about this group, I usually listen to their argument, sigh, and go back to my life. I had to watch some video last year in one of my classes about comparing animals to people...I think it was that antisemitic video about slaughterhouses and the holocaust; and, yes, comparing cows to Jews is antisemitic and insulting to the entire human race. Don't argue with it, there is NO way to make that right.

Also, An1m, comparing PETA to the Civil Rights movement...seriously? I would love, love, love to hear the justification of that. Radicals are just that, RADICAL! Radicals, by definition, seek revolutionary change through any means necessary. Now, you said PETA is a radical group, I agree. That being said, the Civil Rights movement (I can't believe I even have to type this) was not radical. Under M.L.K., the movement specifically prohibited violence. In fact, it depended, nay succeeded because of the lack of violence.

And as far as, "Most people don't have the stomach for radical groups" that should be rewritten, "Most people have enough common sense to see there are better ways to get things done". Radicals don't fight for "equality" they fight for their way. I love that logic, they "bring attention" to the issues. I do, really, love that argument. Not because it's ridiculous, but because it's true, they "bring attention" to the issues, the same way the KKK did during the 50's & 60's. Sure they could have done it a peaceful way but where's the fun in that, lynching is so much more satisfying. /sarcasm. Afterall, the KKK was fighting for the protection of the white woman, they put up their posters about how blacks are "villains" and "monsters". They spread their propaganda, didn't matter if it was true, just that it scared people.

Do you see my point? Sure the KKK became popular but all they did was make themselves look evil and monstrous. It is shocking to see the parallels between radical organizations across the board.

Now, am I going to try and throw up a bunch of copy/pasted statistics from the USDA or PETA, no. Personally, I don't care, nor could I accurately debate that subject. But I will be damned if I will let anyone compare a bunch of radicals to one of the greatest moments and greatest leaders in American History.

P.S. This came out a little more heated than I anticipated but, no gratuitous harm intended.

[An1m]

In regards to the opening question, "Peta, Where do you Draw the Line?", I draw the line completely around PETA. (People Eating Tasty Animals...sorry, I had to. haha)

Seriously, whenever I hear anything about this group, I usually listen to their argument, sigh, and go back to my life. I had to watch some video last year in one of my classes about comparing animals to people...I think it was that antisemitic video about slaughterhouses and the holocaust; and, yes, comparing cows to Jews is antisemitic and insulting to the entire human race. Don't argue with it, there is NO way to make that right.

Also, An1m, comparing PETA to the Civil Rights movement...seriously? I would love, love, love to hear the justification of that. Radicals are just that, RADICAL! Radicals, by definition, seek revolutionary change through any means necessary. Now, you said PETA is a radical group, I agree. That being said, the Civil Rights movement (I can't believe I even have to type this) was not radical. Under M.L.K., the movement specifically prohibited violence. In fact, it depended, nay succeeded because of the lack of violence.

And as far as, "Most people don't have the stomach for radical groups" that should be rewritten, "Most people have enough common sense to see there are better ways to get things done". Radicals don't fight for "equality" they fight for their way. I love that logic, they "bring attention" to the issues. I do, really, love that argument. Not because it's ridiculous, but because it's true, they "bring attention" to the issues, the same way the KKK did during the 50's & 60's. Sure they could have done it a peaceful way but where's the fun in that, lynching is so much more satisfying. /sarcasm. Afterall, the KKK was fighting for the protection of the white woman, they put up their posters about how blacks are "villains" and "monsters". They spread their propaganda, didn't matter if it was true, just that it scared people.

Do you see my point? Sure the KKK became popular but all they did was make themselves look evil and monstrous. It is shocking to see the parallels between radical organizations across the board.

Now, am I going to try and throw up a bunch of copy/pasted statistics from the USDA or PETA, no. Personally, I don't care, nor could I accurately debate that subject. But I will be damned if I will let anyone compare a bunch of radicals to one of the greatest moments and greatest leaders in American History.

P.S. This came out a little more heated than I anticipated but, no gratuitous harm intended.

1) MLK was one of only many civil rights leaders. When he became more radical he got whacked. That said, MLK was a radical, Sit Ins were radical, civil disobedience was and is radical. Apparenty you equate being radical with being violent but that's dead wrong.


2) I didn't "compare" PETA to the civil rights movement, I simply pointed out why there is friction between liberals and true progressives historically.

3) My statistics weren't copy pasted, My statistics come from a research paper I did and from multiple sources, including physical books which were ot copy/pasted. 

4) "Radicals don't fight for equality they fight for their way"? What are you talking about? First of all that's an incorrect, grand, unified statement about radicalism which I could easily poke holes in, but I'll only poke one in it for now: The Civil rights movement. Anyway since when is the Animal rights/ Animal liberation movement about "equality" I don't contend, and neither does PETA that animals should be "equal," especially not in any since that would require integration of all animals into human society etc... The point is that some people feel they shouldn't be tortured, electrocuted, forced to live unnatural lives, drugged and fattened up through inventive and cruel methods. They believe that baby cows shouldn't be iron deprived and tied up so that they can't lick their urine to satisfy their body's need for Iron, all in the name of better tasting veal. That's what PETA is about.

5) "Afterall, the KKK was fighting for the protection of the white woman, they put up their posters about how blacks are "villains" and "monsters". They spread their propaganda, didn't matter if it was true, just that it scared people." 

Sadly the KKK did not have any scientifically viable research that proved Black Men were dangerous to white women, they just felt threatened and happened to know that we have larger penises than do all other people, on average and got frightened. They were right to be frightened, now that we're free to date whomever we want many of us take advantage of the ability to date white women or whomever we please, I know I do.

More to the point though, the KKK asserted things that were blatantly false to justify their bigotry. PETA uses statistical evidence and shocking images to get people to question their ideas about how animals should be treated. Seeing a mountain of thousands of dead male chicks who were killed and discarded because they're useless to farmers makes some people think about just what is going on, on these farms. PETA doesn't stand on a platform of hatred and bigotry for farmers, they are ethically opposed to the mistreatment of animals. The KKK is ethically opposed to "race mixing" but what exactly are the dangers to society? to human health" to the environment" These are questions for society to wrestle with and decide their merits. There are no absolute truths, or perfectly true and righteous standards of ethics ot be validated by any deity, but this much is true: Gradually more and more of society accepts that "race-mixing" is not abominable, while more and more people convert to vegetarianism/veganism and fight for animal rights.

[inino]

4) On animal ethics: I am a buddhist, I am an atheist and a nihilist. There are no objective truths but I do not kill anything. I do not kill insects, roaches, mice or anything else. I actually prevent other people from killing them and remove the animals from precarious situations whenever possible. I started practicing buddhism at 14 and I can count the number of insects or animals I have been directly responsible for killing on two hands. Most of them were accidental, like while I was trying to rescue them.

i assume you drive a car and i assume you have had a bug splatter into your grill or window more than a few times, or ran them over. every time you walk on grass you kill insects. pests and bacteria grow on and eat vegetables which have to die to keep the vegetables looking good. you may not have purposefully killed insects or animals, but you have. probably more than you count on two hands

im not trying to put you on blast or put down your beliefs or anything, but things need to die in order to feed other things.

[An1m]

4) On animal ethics: I am a buddhist, I am an atheist and a nihilist. There are no objective truths but I do not kill anything. I do not kill insects, roaches, mice or anything else. I actually prevent other people from killing them and remove the animals from precarious situations whenever possible. I started practicing buddhism at 14 and I can count the number of insects or animals I have been directly responsible for killing on two hands. Most of them were accidental, like while I was trying to rescue them.

i assume you drive a car and i assume you have had a bug splatter into your grill or window more than a few times, or ran them over. every time you walk on grass you kill insects. pests and bacteria grow on and eat vegetables which have to die to keep the vegetables looking good. you may not have purposefully killed insects or animals, but you have. probably more than you count on two hands

im not trying to put you on blast or put down your beliefs or anything, but things need to die in order to feed other things.

Ofcourse I kill some accidentally, but no I don't drive and I try not to walk on grass etc... I look at the ground much of the time as I walk and if pesticides are used to kill animals for the food I eat, or if animals are run over during harvesting then I am indirectly responsible for those deaths also.