Peta, Where Do We Draw The Line?

[Sonthert]

The Penn and Teller Bullshit episode on PETA is hilarious. The executive vice-president of PETA uses insulin that is acquired through the enslavement of animals. She knows it and doesn't care!

I like animals just fine. I don't like fools who elevate animals and humans to the same level. I think the people that do that and support PETA tend to to hate humanity. At least the ones I have known. Actually, I understand the sentiment, but they're proposing things that are absurd on the face of it. They're getting too far, thats what's really scary. The religious, the PETA supporters, the facists, the subjugation of the media...reasonableness and moderation are disappearing.

In the Los Angeles Times, last week, an assistant fire chief was arrested for felonious animal cruelty when he beat a dog 10 times with a rock because the dog was trying to tear off his thumb (the dog was almost successful). The dog was 6 months old (but 40 lbs.). The dog had to be put down due to its injuries (re: killed). Is that the dumbest thing ever? The fire chief was even suspended pending the investigation. Absolute horse-shit.

[NUBBS]

The Penn and Teller Bullshit episode on PETA is hilarious. The executive vice-president of PETA uses insulin that is acquired through the enslavement of animals. She knows it and doesn't care!

I like animals just fine. I don't like fools who elevate animals and humans to the same level. I think the people that do that and support PETA tend to to hate humanity. At least the ones I have known. Actually, I understand the sentiment, but they're proposing things that are absurd on the face of it. They're getting too far, thats what's really scary. The religious, the PETA supporters, the facists, the subjugation of the media...reasonableness and moderation are disappearing.

In the Los Angeles Times, last week, an assistant fire chief was arrested for felonious animal cruelty when he beat a dog 10 times with a rock because the dog was trying to tear off his thumb (the dog was almost successful). The dog was 6 months old (but 40 lbs.). The dog had to be put down due to its injuries (re: killed). Is that the dumbest thing ever? The fire chief was even suspended pending the investigation. Absolute horse-shit.

Penn and Teller bullshit is an awesome show. Wow Eric, thats an edjucated answer that is exactly what I feel too.

[dcrooksjr]

i really dislike peta and the methods they choose to get their messages heard, they do pose a lot of fair arguments but it is clouded in their almost zombie like mantra. i once saw a peta rep on a news show, they where talking about lobsters. she sounded brain washed and just kept repeating the same things over and over again.<br />if you want to see some thing interesting watch a show from the bbc called supermarket secrets, they show a lot of horrible farms and explain how our demand for cheap food has hurt the animals that we eat.<br />the links are below:<br /><a href="http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=51049" target="_blank">http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=51049</a> part 1<br /><a href="http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=51050" target="_blank">http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=51050</a> part 2<br /><a href="http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=51048" target="_blank">http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=51048</a> part 3<br /><br />



one more addition:


SOURCE: Center for Consumer Freedom
Nov 14, 2007 02:00 ET
CCF Launches Global Campaign to Expose PETA's Animal-Killing Track Record

"PETA Kills Animals" Website Launches in Five Languages

WASHINGTON, DC--(Marketwire - November 14, 2007) - While loudly complaining about the "unethical" treatment of animals by restaurant owners, grocers, farmers, scientists, and clothing retailers, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has been hiding its own dirty little secret. Public records from the State of Virginia show that PETA has killed at least 14,479 dogs, cats, and other "companion animals" at its headquarters. Today the nonprofit Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF) re-launched its wildly popular website focusing on this hypocrisy -- www.PetaKillsAnimals.com -- in the English, French, Italian, German, and Russian languages.

"PETA is not what it seems," said CCF Director of Research David Martosko. "The group kills around 90 percent of the flesh-and-blood animals it takes in. As PETA tries to globalize its appalling 'animal liberation' message, people all around the world need to know about the group's horrible hypocrisy."

PETA raises more than $30 million (US) every year, largely from pet owners who falsely believe their donations help animals. In reality, PETA has been killing pets for many years. Meanwhile, it has spent tens of millions of dollars on programs equating meat eaters with Nazis, opposing live-saving medical research, scaring young children away from drinking milk, and even defending arsonists and other violent extremists.

"Someone needs to tell the world the truth about PETA," Martosko added. "PETA accepts animal-lovers' donations with one hand while administering lethal injections to puppies and kittens with the other."

Documents and photos related to PETA's massive animal-killing program are now available online at:

English: www.PetaKillsAnimals.com
French: www.PetaTueAnimaux.fr
German: www.PetaTotetTiere.de
Italian: www.PetaUccideAnimali.it
Russian: www.PetaKillsAnimals.ru

During a 2007 U.S. criminal trial, a PETA employee acknowledged killing pets and disposing of their bodies in a trash dumpster. Another PETA employee testified that PETA has a walk-in freezer for storing dead pets, and that PETA uses a crematory service to discard over a ton of dead pets each month. Edited January 1, 2009 by dcrooksjr

[Johnny_D]

i dont care about animals or the environment. i regard PITA as a group of morons. i will eat meat, burn gas, and step on bunnies till i die.

thank you and goodnight.

I am outraged and disgusted at your attitude....

....You forgot the polar-bear-burgers with cheese

[erufiku]

maddox found a solution a long time ago...

[zeppyrkr]

From Ben and Jerry's Wiki enjoy ::

On September 25, 2008 Tracy Reiman from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals sent a letter to Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield suggesting that in order to prevent cruelty to dairy cows that Ben & Jerry's should use human breast milk in their ice cream products.[5]

Ben & Jerry's spokeswoman Liz Brenna says that while the company applauds PETA's novel approach to bring attention to this issue, the company believes a human mother's milk is best used for her child.[6]

[judgeposer]

The Penn and Teller Bullshit episode on PETA is hilarious. The executive vice-president of PETA uses insulin that is acquired through the enslavement of animals. She knows it and doesn't care!

I like animals just fine. I don't like fools who elevate animals and humans to the same level. I think the people that do that and support PETA tend to to hate humanity. At least the ones I have known. Actually, I understand the sentiment, but they're proposing things that are absurd on the face of it. They're getting too far, thats what's really scary. The religious, the PETA supporters, the facists, the subjugation of the media...reasonableness and moderation are disappearing.

In the Los Angeles Times, last week, an assistant fire chief was arrested for felonious animal cruelty when he beat a dog 10 times with a rock because the dog was trying to tear off his thumb (the dog was almost successful). The dog was 6 months old (but 40 lbs.). The dog had to be put down due to its injuries (re: killed). Is that the dumbest thing ever? The fire chief was even suspended pending the investigation. Absolute horse-shit.

Penn and Teller bullshit is an awesome show. Wow Eric, thats an edjucated answer that is exactly what I feel too.

We can find the theory that undergirds the elevation of non-human animals in the idea of speciesism from the work of Peter Singer. Though perhaps this elevated status existed before Singer ever became famous, or before his book Animal Liberation, I think Singer's work added the veneer of credibility and rigorousness to what was before only mere sentiment or feeling. Singer's theory is, in short, that:

the interests of all beings capable of suffering to be worthy of equal consideration, and that giving lesser consideration to beings based on their having wings or fur is no more justified than discrimination based on skin color. He argues that animals should have rights based on their ability to feel pain more than their intelligence. In particular, he argues that while animals show lower intelligence than the average human, many severely retarded humans show equally diminished, if not lower, mental capacity, and intelligence therefore does not provide a basis for providing nonhuman animals any less consideration than such retarded humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Animal_Liberation.

I think Singer and similar animal liberationists, and organizations like PETA are onto something to bring our attention to the plight of mis/maltreated animals, especially as it exists in industrialized farming practices or unethical scientific research/testing that unnecessarily tortures animals. I do think, however, that their analysis and perscription goes overboard to extent that it equates human and animal suffering and to the extent that it admonishes human behavior that subjugates animals to humans - this I believe is the "natural" order of things. While I do believe we do not have the right to inflict torture unnecessarily on animals, all human behavior that subjugates animals to humans (e.g. eating beef) doesn't arise to the level of torture or unethical behavior. So, even if I'm willing to accept Singer's accusation that I'm a speciesist (which is like being racist, he'd have us believe), I don't believe this is an unwarranted predjudice, like racism.

[JovianChiron]

to put it out there, i do not support peta. but i do have a few things to say.

Damn animals are doing what is natural... killing other animals in grotesque ways.

your point was lost in vague rambling. but what you said about fluoride is right on.

While I do believe we do not have the right to inflict torture unnecessarily on animals, all human behavior that subjugates animals to humans (e.g. eating beef) doesn't arise to the level of torture or unethical behavior.

while i am following you on many of your points, consider the concept of 'mass terms'. meat has become a mass term. many people eat chicken, beef, fish, and numerous other things every single day. you know, the well known 'meat'. while consuming this, they do not consider the massive amount of resources spent to raise these creatures, the chemicals put into their food, the steroids pumped into their bodies, the means of transportation to and from butchering/packaging/distribution. they simply eat it.

think of a mass term in this way: if you have water, it is merely water. you can have more or less of it in a glass, but it is just water. the same example may work with such things as colors.

but to use meat as a mass term, you're not taking into consideration the lives of a unique being and resources spent to prepare it to be eaten. this may be considered unethical to some.

personally, i believe ethics in general are bullshit (each community will base should base their ethics on their own community--many world-wide ethics just don't work for everybody). what matters is what is SUSTAINABLE, and what is not. and i will tell you right now--factory farming is not sustainable. it never has been and never will be. if you want to eat meat, obtain and prepare it yourself--or trade with your neighbors. you will be doing yourself and the world a huge favour.

judgeposer, your post was well said in many ways, and i don't want it to seem like i'm harping on you or anything. Just sharing a different perspective. oh, and on peter singer, i won't even go there today.

[judgeposer]

While I do believe we do not have the right to inflict torture unnecessarily on animals, all human behavior that subjugates animals to humans (e.g. eating beef) doesn't arise to the level of torture or unethical behavior.

while i am following you on many of your points, consider the concept of 'mass terms'. meat has become a mass term. many people eat chicken, beef, fish, and numerous other things every single day. you know, the well known 'meat'. while consuming this, they do not consider the massive amount of resources spent to raise these creatures, the chemicals put into their food, the steroids pumped into their bodies, the means of transportation to and from butchering/packaging/distribution. they simply eat it.

think of a mass term in this way: if you have water, it is merely water. you can have more or less of it in a glass, but it is just water. the same example may work with such things as colors.

but to use meat as a mass term, you're not taking into consideration the lives of a unique being and resources spent to prepare it to be eaten. this may be considered unethical to some.

personally, i believe ethics in general are bullshit (each community will base should base their ethics on their own community--many world-wide ethics just don't work for everybody). what matters is what is SUSTAINABLE, and what is not. and i will tell you right now--factory farming is not sustainable. it never has been and never will be. if you want to eat meat, obtain and prepare it yourself--or trade with your neighbors. you will be doing yourself and the world a huge favour.

judgeposer, your post was well said in many ways, and i don't want it to seem like i'm harping on you or anything. Just sharing a different perspective. oh, and on peter singer, i won't even go there today.

I don't believe you harped on me any, no worries. Really, though, I suspect you have a problem with that disconnection people create when they use terms, or as you say, "mass terms," that fail to encapsulate the complete picture of what is truly meant by the term or the person using the term. I do too; but that's not what I did (i.e., I never referred to "meat" for instance), so I didn't take your post as even directed toward me - perhaps though I could be wrong here. Was it directed at my previous post? How so?

On the matter of ethics - the presence of a diversity of opinion, even a diversity of competing ethical systems, does not invalidate the position that one of those systems is correct (i.e. moral absolutism). Deduction allows us to conclude reasonably that ALL competing ethical systems are wrong, or ONE of those systems is right. And while you consider ethics BS, to use your phrase, you employ one particular ethical framework, pragmatism. You do/did this when you elevate as a measure of value whether some particular way is "sustainable."

N.B. I'm not a fan of Peter Singer's brand of ethics, which is some sort of neo-utilitarianism. I consider myself something of an Aristotelian or Thomist.

[JovianChiron]

i was just taking some of what you said, looking at it differently, and expanding upon it. you never did use a mass term, or referred to them at any point, but for the sake of the subject i felt it was important to throw it in there.

[judgeposer]

i was just taking some of what you said, looking at it differently, and expanding upon it. you never did use a mass term, or referred to them at any point, but for the sake of the subject i felt it was important to throw it in there.

ahh, gotca...no worries, I was just curious (serious, and not in a sarastic-typical-forum way).

[clibinarius]

It takes a lot for me to agree with any people on this message board.

First, what I disagree with. Go back to watching Dr. Strangelove. Nearly everyone who's had Floridated water has gotten many infections and gone sterile. In fact, my grandfather died at the ripe old age of 78. Now, was it a massive heart attack like the doctors said? No. After being enlightened on this message board, I've learned its because he drunk too much floridated water as an old man, and the floride combined with the potassium to create a salt which clogged his arteries and gave him the massive problems.

As far as Autism is concerned, Asperger's Syndrome didn't exist until the 80s. This MUST therefore be a side effect of floridation of water. Nevermind the diagnosis didn't exist, and nevermind that no one knows what causes autism but everyone is blaming something for its rise, nevermind the fact no one knows for sure what autism is. Autism is on a definite rise, and there's NO STOPPING THAT. Its kind of difficult to diagnose anyone who's high functioning enough to not be detected before it was detectable if they've been alive for more than 40 years. For all we know, there's a shitload of autism somewhere, but I guess its all related to the floridation of water.

Hell, while we're at it, Caesar and Muhammad must've been drinking Floridated water, as they both showed signs of epilepsy, which seems to be highly comorbid to autism. And Moses, he couldn't speak properly. But he COULDN'T have had full out autism. God doesn't like autistics, right? I mean, would he bless someone he cursed? And I don't mean to be disrespectful to Muhammad by suggesting he had seizures. That's only disrespectful if you think God hates epileptics. Of course, if you're an atheist, then god doesn't exist.

The point is, floridated water isn't slowly killing us. Its not really even killing us. At worst, its an economic waste. I'm more concerned, personally, about the fact I smoke hookah killing me someday. Or LIVING ON TOP OF A FUCKING HIGH TRAFFIC HIGHWAY.

I know, people will be responding to this with statistics about how bad floridation is. My reply will be "Hey, I don't care! I'm not dead. My dad's not dead. My sister's not dead. My neighbor's not dead. My ancestors didn't die from it. Those people I took care of at the nursing home aren't sick from it." And the link to mental disease. I won't even talk about undiagnosed people I'm related to and know for certain things who would've been diagnosed a long time ago if they had the diagnoses then as they do today. Its for policy makers and scientists and concerned citizens to debate, not for a bunch of retards with modems who think they're smarter than they are.

Enough insulting those aside, my question would be if I've insulted you: Why do you care? I'll never meet you. If I did, I wouldn't care for you, and you shouldn't care for me. Go away. Respond if you want, and through some sort of stupidity, IF I read this message board again long enough to care, I might respond.

As far as Peta is concerned, we have a grand comparison to the civil rights movement. I would like to submit that those in the civil rights movement who succeeded seemed to be the moderates. It seems that after MLK got popped, the civil rights movement moved from being about rights to being about entitlements: Similarly, very little seems in my view that was significant seems to have been accomplished since. You can argue if you want, but I don't care. And why don't I care? You'll never convince me, and I'll never convince you. I will say this. I will not eat meat in front of people I like if they're offended by it. And if I like them enough I won't eat meat at all. Complaining about my meat eating will get a "Fuck you." And similarly if you pour red paint all over my shoes, you should go to jail. End of discussion. You have vandalized my property. You have made me unjustly incur losses. I have obeyed the law. The fact that the book isn't thrown at these morons doesn't make sense to me. And I think if you go to jail, you still must have your wages given back to paying for the losses you caused someone else. Want to destroy a $100,000 mink? Fine. Go to jail for 5 years, and then you'll have to give back some of your wages until I get my losses back with reasonable interest.

Our wild ancestors can eat uncooked meat. Homo erectus cooked meat, and we haven't looked back. I don't know if we can eat uncooked meat still, or choose not to. And before you present my with some statistic saying we can or can't, I don't care. Cats can't eat vegetarian either without getting real sick unless its processed heavily. Are you saying they shouldn't eat meat? But isn't that cruelty! So they have to catch their own food, that's the only ETHICAL way to let a cat live. Ah, but then why can't we catch our own food? Oh wait, its not ethical anymore because we're less animalistic than cats.

I believe animals can feel emotions. I don't believe loaded statistics either way on this one. I'm not sure whether or not plants feel pain. To say a CNS is required is bullshit to me, because it means we can't imagine a scenario in which something can feel something without a CNS. But does it matter to me? Actually, yes. Its why I feel animals deserve a certain dignity. A dignity, I might add, that only humans and no other predators bestow upon them. At the same time, people in PETA would have us ignore our ecological niche if such a thing exists-apex and keystone predators as well as gatherers-because we're making the world go out of balance. Nevermind if the world was in balance, I find it difficult that the complex changes leading to humans would've occurred. If nature reacts to us violently, why the hell did nature allow us to exist? If humans die off, disasters will still happen. The world will eventually come to an end anyway when the sun becomes a red giant. We're so terrified that we're going to destroy the planet, that we've lost sight of the fact we haven't destroyed the planet yet, when we move on a destructive path we haven't been able to go through with it to its logical conclusion, and the planet's been destroyed many times over. And before anyone says "BUT GLOBAL WARMING IS A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS TO BE SOLVED IMMEDIATELY!!!" I'll add: Hey, asshole, what happens when the next ice age comes? And if it all doesn't matter in the end as some would content, then does it matter if we turn into Venus? And what happens if someone's dumb economic planning to fix global warming leads to massive starvation, much more than dealing with global warming and figuring out how to correct it?

Hey, it looks like we solved the puss in milk problem. PASTEURIZATION. Guess what? ITS NOT A PROBLEM ANYMORE. ISSUE SOLVED.

So if you want to reply, go ahead. Pick all this apart. I'm not going to care. Everyone on here's too arrogant to have a reasonable argument with, and that includes myself. All of you, as am I, are know-it-alls. And fuck you if you disagree with that, you're not just a know-it-all, but a douchebag to boot.

One last thing: The world's coming to an end at an arbitrary date, for whatever arbitrary reason you think it is, and there's no arbitrary thing you can do about it.

[clibinarius]

Let me add, I think that Civil Rights has picked up since the 80s. Let's just say I'm not completely bashing entitlements. I'm simply saying I view the civil rights agenda as more about money and compensation in those days than equality.

[redrum10498]

PETA has gotten way out of hand.

Our bodies are designed for the consumption of meat. Those who chose not to use their body to its intention are free to do so, but pushing your beliefs on those who chose to is wrong and quite frankly it is extremely annoying and it makes me crave a double whopper with cheese.

your intentions are good, but you are having negative effects on me ha.

Get your annoying tents off of Warped Tour by the way.

People go there to see the bands they love, not to get a shpeel from an unbathed hippie in a hemp t-shirt.

[newjacksm]

Do what ever you have to to make the chickens taste better.

Haha I am kidding. But if anyone ever threw red paint on my fur coat it'd be the end of there days..

Go watch the Movie Poultrygeist, PETA people like it.

[Ebzen]

Well coming from a country of whalers I'm probably gonna be hated by PETA and other animal rights groups merely for not engaging in civil disobedience and blowing ships up anyway so. I figure we need animal rights groups, merely because the animals aren't able to speak up for themselves. However, I do think they need to be kept in better check than now. Alot of the stuff that are being done aren't really helping animals, just hurting people.

It is somewhat understandable that you go to extremes if you feel really passionate about something but noone really cares enough to help you, or even lend you their ear for a sec. But when stuff like this " http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...ticle716466.ece " happens, someone needs to wake up and smell their tofu.

Animal rights groups seems more like a place to be if you are pissed off at the world or your parents, and not so much a place for those who want to do something constructive, and for that I blame the organizations themselves. I'm sure PETA didn't start out trying to be a bunch of loonies other people shun when they first set out. It merely happened over time since they couldn't actually affect anything.

It's sorta like terrorism, you can't win the war because you don't have the money or power. So you mess about blowing stuff up, freeing lab animals only to watch them get mowed down crossing the road or other such things. It won't really affect the big picture, but it's atleast gonna get you (and therefore your case) mentioned.

[smokeytheclown]

PETA's goal is not animal rights, but intense govt. intervention into the lives of its citizens. Radical eviros demand more bureaucratic handcuffs on my freedoms. Every April 15, I'm reminded how much of my hard earned ( and rapidly approaching WORTHLESS ) cash goes to a bloated pit of elected vampires hell-bent on profit and control at the expense of my substantially frugal livelihood. PETA, Greenpiss, all names for the same thing -
The Socialist Party.
On a lighter note, whilst watching that bastion of ethical news reporting Cartoon Network's ' Adult Swim ' recentely, one of their " bumps" before a show announced tha PETA was starting a new campaign to call fish " SEA KITTENS " ( to quote humor columnist Dave Barry, ' I am not making this up'). Applying the inverse here, I plan to go into the nearest Wet Pets store and ask to see the " land fish " .

[M. Saahir]

I feel it is not right to bash on people who want to save animals from consumption, however I feel equally so that the latter group not bash on people for consuming animal products. Perspective is relative to the self, so trying to impose ones self values on another I generally see as rude behavior, unless there is consent. When it comes to the actions of PETA, I don't generally understand the extreme versions of spray painting fur products as companies will have to kill more animals in order to make more. They are already astoundingly overpriced and a grounded person won't want to blow their money on such a stupid item in the first place. I think PETA should advocate for knowledge more than seek to end cruelty to animals by violence.

[Stuie]

Here's where I draw the line...



I hope you laugh as much as I did when I thought of it!

[NarghileNights]

mmmmm yummm lol..

the one thing that tends to bother me is when we start to talk about the feelings that animals have. really?

[Stuie]

Yeah I think PETA crossed the line again.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/...protests-w.html

[ColibriDon]

Yeah I think PETA crossed the line again.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/...protests-w.html

[inino]

thats kind of funny, especially coming from a leftist news paper.

[ilikemyusername]

Freshwater aquariums are not really cruel but saltwater ones are awful. People go to tropic locations and toss dynamite into coral reefs to stun the fish, allowing them to float to the surface. They catch the few that are still alive and transport them overseas, where as few as 20% survive. THe reefs will never be the same as coral only grows an inch a year, and many of the reefs will never recover.

wait a minute now, i'd like the record to show that
1. dynamite and cyanide fishing are phasing themselves out in tropical reefs, and being replaced with sustainable harvesting. thats still a serious problem in the less disrespectful countries, and we should wage war for it.
2. coral will find a way to survive as it has done since practically the beginning of time, though not as we know it today, i'm in no way defending bad practices and am actually trying to explain how badass they are at adaptation.
3.almost everything in my tank is aquacultured. my liverock, my corals, and my fish.
i started with a few pieces of natural liverock to seed the tank. then went to the quarry.