Israel Appears To Have Had Enough

[TheScotsman]

It looks like 50+ was the magic number. Olmert is a bit of a dove, but I think hamass & Islamic jihad have
pushed it past the point of any saving the whole mess. It would appear that the end of hamass is at hand.
(or at least an end of the current leadership) I don't think the IDF will make the same mistake of allowing a
retreat, and dragging them into an urban situation.

Can't say it wasn't well deserved. One thing hamass never has learned, when you break the cease fire, you get shot
back at. funny thing, eh? The other thing they never did learn was that a Katusha is a random weapon, casualties
are low, and terrorism is high. 1000# GBU from an F-16 into hamass HQ can radically alter the chain of command.

Again we see the useless-UN who sat by and ignored hamass terrorism trying to extinguish a fire with an eye-dropper.
in the end, only proving just how useless the UN actually is.

One has to wonder, with hamass backed primarily by Iran, could this just be a move by Iran to draw the focus away
from their nuke program by putting the hamass/Israel conflict in the spotlight? I would think it all the more likely as
the eve of PEBO's inauguration. After all, he made it clear that he would take action against any Iran nuke program.
Iran is likely feelin' their oats since they managed to score a load of S-300's from our "friends" in Russia a few weeks ago.

For the love of it all, can you imagine Hillary in the middle of the whole mess in a couple of weeks? Not a
very reassuring thought, is it?


Ah, awaiting all the "change"... ya, sure, you betcha.

[NickReppinThe909]

i was born and raised in israel and i hate how the fucking bullshit biased american media is making the whole country look. we are peaceful people and there is just a few small areas that have isolated problems. and i live in this shit hole called southern california and i dont feel 1/10th as safe or comfortable as i did back home. i hope america doesnt go in and start killing large numbers of innocent civilians like they do everywhere else when there is a problem that doesnt concern them. i also have many palestinian friends here and we get along perfectly fine (some born there and some here) so i have proven just with my ciricle of friends that we can get along and i dont want to sound like a fucking hippie but peace is a good goal

but on the subject of the current situation i think it is good that IDF is finally responding to hamas's bullshit and not putting up with it anymore

[DJ_HOSSEIX]

Herald Tribune: "The Israeli Air Force on Saturday launched a massive attack on Hamas targets throughout Gaza in retaliation for the recent heavy rocket fire from the area, hitting mostly security headquarters, training compounds and weapons storage facilities, the Israeli military and witnesses said...no Israelis were killed or seriously injured in these recent attacks.

Though Israel had been threatening to end its policy of restraint that saw only limited strikes against rocket launchers and squads in recent days, the timing of the raid came as a surprise to Gazans. It came in mid-morning, when official buildings and security compounds were filled with personnel and children were at school, and not, as many had anticipated, at night."

So this body count of exactly 0 is what "incredibly restrained" Israel which led it to retaliate for by attacking city and market centers in the middle of the day, killing over 250 officials, women, and children and wounding over 700 more for? Lets not even get started on the actual facts and figures of Israel's wondrously saintly "restraint":

• 123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000
• 1,062 Israelis and at least 4,876 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000
• 8,341 Israelis and 33,034 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000
• 1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel
• Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
• During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians.

According to the New York Times, Israel gave no indication to civilians on the ground that it was preparing to launch a noon, daytime murderous assault on civilian population centers. According to the AP, many of the victims were women and children on their way to school. and even if Israel had given some sort of warning, so what? Does that give Israel the right to launch indiscriminate bombing raids over sovereign Palestinian territory? Does that give Israel the right to kill and injure of hundreds of innocent civilians without any disregard for human life? Does that give Israel the right to hold an entire people and region hostage? What Israel did today was throw the entire peace process down the drain. israel does not want peace.

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesD/orders1.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/melwak/f/iman_poem_files/e1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/melwak/f/FLASTEN25.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03UicJm1i75t6/610x.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_fGce0OaNn8w/R_I0cb4G...ians_jrl115.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_oMSFX5-1evI/RtWnzrbQ...9q-Z8/death.jpg
http://www.machlink.com/~ampal/wael1.jpg

[ukhookah]

What israil have done, is bang out of order. there is no excuse in killing civilians and children in such large masses. and reasons given by israil are quite frankley....pathetic

[Johnny_D]

Hookah is not the instrument of peace... it will be used to bludgeon to death our enemies, There is a reason they
make the stems so beefy.


assholes to this thread yet again. What's the point in even bothering anymore.

Sorry Nick. I'm tired of the fight, tired of the sheeple who refuse to see beyond CNN/BBC ect ect, tired of the
though of having to have this conversation in the office again by people who have never left europe let alone travelled
the middle east and sat and ate with folks from both sides.

I'm just so fucking tired.

[thecyrax]

Hookah is not the instrument of peace... it will be used to bludgeon to death our enemies, There is a reason they
make the stems so beefy.


assholes to this thread yet again. What's the point in even bothering anymore.

Sorry Nick. I'm tired of the fight, tired of the sheeple who refuse to see beyond CNN/BBC ect ect, tired of the
though of having to have this conversation in the office again by people who have never left europe let alone travelled
the middle east and sat and ate with folks from both sides.

I'm just so fucking tired.

+1

[staygone]

This whole situation's fucked up, always has been and always will.

-QM Edited December 29, 2008 by QuiltedMaple

[r1v3th3ad]

I don't follow the christian bible, but I do believe some things since it and the Testament are historically accurate..."once there is peace in the middle east, the apocalypse is amongst us"...at that, I'm sorry for all those who are losing friends and family, but when peace arises, we lose the world...maybe thats what is going to happen in 2012?

I don't like the bloodshed either, even though I have no ties there...but I have some negative views I'd rather not share on the issue.

[TizaNabi]

You can go back to the Turkish occupation of Palestine which gave way to the British mandate of pre-Israel times to see what was then the situation 90 years ago, but lets look recently.Yasser Arafat was leader of the Palestinian Authority and had peace talks toward a Palestininian state , in Washington face to face with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.Hand shakes clowning for the cameras and all. Arik Sharon the big "Hawk" became Prime Minister and decided to leave Gaza 100% one-sided with no peace agreement but to leave it up to the Palestinians.In the West Bank Palestinian elections voted for the secular party of Abu Mazen and in Gaza they voted for religous Chamas.AbuMazen the succsessor to Arafat continues to this day to have face to face talks with Israel's Prime Minister recieves food, money, guns from Israel.Chamas refuses to recognize the Zionist State AND the secular party of Abu Mazen.They have been shooting rockets at Israel for 7 years hitting the town of Sderot in Israel almost daily. Israeli goverernment not only left Gaza, the decided that all the Jewish settlements some large villages to be evacuated and given over to Palestinian Chamas.The Jews there were forced out 3 years ago by our government with police, thousands of soldiers, men on horses using anti-riot measures to get them out. Most have not recieved the promised jobs they lost, schools or permanent homes. From the Jewish villages, Chamas went in and even from the former large synagog have been shelling with rockets the last 3 years from a closer proximity to Israeli town then before using the land we gave back "for peace".
There hasbeen a cease fire in place for a year with them shooting rockets and Israel responding in light measure. The cease fire was to end this month and for months our media has been asking "will chamas re-new the cease fire"? They did not, Egypt has been trying for months to tell them that if they don't renew Israel will attack them, Abu Mazen the secular leader of the Palestinian Authority said to them the same. We threatened them that if the cease fire time passes and they attack we will unleash a large power against them. The Palestinian people are not to blame. It has been a fact that the Arab leaders often dictators never care about the man in the street. We in Israel have become weak in their eyes so they continued.The Chamas leaders on purpose put their fortifications and main strategic foundations such as rocket making small factories among the civilian population. The result is civilian deaths.
TODAY in Ashkeleon,Israel we had one dead man with hundreds wounded.THIS dead man is an Israeli ARAB construction worker.
When Chamas decides to make peace with Israel they will find partners like the other Arab states of Jordan,Egypt do.But who pays the way for Chamas? Iran.Who gives them technology for bombs? Iran. If Chams makes peace they will never be able to control politically without the support of Iran and then the "dreaded" Palestinian authority a secular movement will once again gain power in Gaza.(Have you followed the gun fire between the 2 groups in the last few years)? Not if you live in an Arab country with censorship.

[NickReppinThe909]

Hookah is not the instrument of peace... it will be used to bludgeon to death our enemies, There is a reason they
make the stems so beefy.


assholes to this thread yet again. What's the point in even bothering anymore.

Sorry Nick. I'm tired of the fight, tired of the sheeple who refuse to see beyond CNN/BBC ect ect, tired of the
though of having to have this conversation in the office again by people who have never left europe let alone travelled
the middle east and sat and ate with folks from both sides.

I'm just so fucking tired.

i know how you feel and i know most of the people on here have probably never been to israel let alone lived there for 14 years like myself so this is probably not the ideal place to discuss this considering how biased the american media is

[Imsomint]

Hookah is not the instrument of peace... it will be used to bludgeon to death our enemies, There is a reason they
make the stems so beefy.


assholes to this thread yet again. What's the point in even bothering anymore.

Sorry Nick. I'm tired of the fight, tired of the sheeple who refuse to see beyond CNN/BBC ect ect, tired of the
though of having to have this conversation in the office again by people who have never left europe let alone travelled
the middle east and sat and ate with folks from both sides.

I'm just so fucking tired.

i know how you feel and i know most of the people on here have probably never been to israel let alone lived there for 14 years like myself so this is probably not the ideal place to discuss this considering how biased the american media is

No need to be biased against American media there, all media is biased IMO.

[Majid]

It looks like 50+ was the magic number. Olmert is a bit of a dove, but I think hamass & Islamic jihad have
pushed it past the point of any saving the whole mess. It would appear that the end of hamass is at hand.
(or at least an end of the current leadership) I don't think the IDF will make the same mistake of allowing a
retreat, and dragging them into an urban situation.

Can't say it wasn't well deserved. One thing hamass never has learned, when you break the cease fire, you get shot
back at. funny thing, eh? The other thing they never did learn was that a Katusha is a random weapon, casualties
are low, and terrorism is high. 1000# GBU from an F-16 into hamass HQ can radically alter the chain of command.

Again we see the useless-UN who sat by and ignored hamass terrorism trying to extinguish a fire with an eye-dropper.
in the end, only proving just how useless the UN actually is.

One has to wonder, with hamass backed primarily by Iran, could this just be a move by Iran to draw the focus away
from their nuke program by putting the hamass/Israel conflict in the spotlight? I would think it all the more likely as
the eve of PEBO's inauguration. After all, he made it clear that he would take action against any Iran nuke program.
Iran is likely feelin' their oats since they managed to score a load of S-300's from our "friends" in Russia a few weeks ago.

For the love of it all, can you imagine Hillary in the middle of the whole mess in a couple of weeks? Not a
very reassuring thought, is it?


Ah, awaiting all the "change"... ya, sure, you betcha.

This kind of attitude doesn't warrant a full written out response. This picture will have to do.

[Imsomint]

It looks like 50+ was the magic number. Olmert is a bit of a dove, but I think hamass & Islamic jihad have
pushed it past the point of any saving the whole mess. It would appear that the end of hamass is at hand.
(or at least an end of the current leadership) I don't think the IDF will make the same mistake of allowing a
retreat, and dragging them into an urban situation.

Can't say it wasn't well deserved. One thing hamass never has learned, when you break the cease fire, you get shot
back at. funny thing, eh? The other thing they never did learn was that a Katusha is a random weapon, casualties
are low, and terrorism is high. 1000# GBU from an F-16 into hamass HQ can radically alter the chain of command.

Again we see the useless-UN who sat by and ignored hamass terrorism trying to extinguish a fire with an eye-dropper.
in the end, only proving just how useless the UN actually is.

One has to wonder, with hamass backed primarily by Iran, could this just be a move by Iran to draw the focus away
from their nuke program by putting the hamass/Israel conflict in the spotlight? I would think it all the more likely as
the eve of PEBO's inauguration. After all, he made it clear that he would take action against any Iran nuke program.
Iran is likely feelin' their oats since they managed to score a load of S-300's from our "friends" in Russia a few weeks ago.

For the love of it all, can you imagine Hillary in the middle of the whole mess in a couple of weeks? Not a
very reassuring thought, is it?


Ah, awaiting all the "change"... ya, sure, you betcha.

This kind of attitude doesn't warrant a full written out response. This picture will have to do.

Is that a date in the bottom right corner?

Has Israel not kept true to the cease fire? That's what I get out of my biased American media.

[mushrat]

This conversation will be kept civil. Only warning.

For those of you in the US here's soemthing to think about. And this is no disparagement to Indians.

Say the Indian Reservation in Iowa starts lobbing rockets into downtown Demoines. What would our first reaction be? to roll the army in and take care of business. The US wouldn't give a DAMN what the international community would say. So before people start sayign the responce is unreasonable, thjink about your uncle charley living in Pocatello and then think how you'd react.

Not the same thing? Then you aren't paying attention.

[mushrat]

Herald Tribune: "The Israeli Air Force on Saturday launched a massive attack on Hamas targets throughout Gaza in retaliation for the recent heavy rocket fire from the area, hitting mostly security headquarters, training compounds and weapons storage facilities, the Israeli military and witnesses said...no Israelis were killed or seriously injured in these recent attacks.

Though Israel had been threatening to end its policy of restraint that saw only limited strikes against rocket launchers and squads in recent days, the timing of the raid came as a surprise to Gazans. It came in mid-morning, when official buildings and security compounds were filled with personnel and children were at school, and not, as many had anticipated, at night."

So this body count of exactly 0 is what "incredibly restrained" Israel which led it to retaliate for by attacking city and market centers in the middle of the day, killing over 250 officials, women, and children and wounding over 700 more for? Lets not even get started on the actual facts and figures of Israel's wondrously saintly "restraint":

• 123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000
• 1,062 Israelis and at least 4,876 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000
• 8,341 Israelis and 33,034 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000
• 1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel
• Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
• During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians.

According to the New York Times, Israel gave no indication to civilians on the ground that it was preparing to launch a noon, daytime murderous assault on civilian population centers. According to the AP, many of the victims were women and children on their way to school. and even if Israel had given some sort of warning, so what? Does that give Israel the right to launch indiscriminate bombing raids over sovereign Palestinian territory? Does that give Israel the right to kill and injure of hundreds of innocent civilians without any disregard for human life? Does that give Israel the right to hold an entire people and region hostage? What Israel did today was throw the entire peace process down the drain. israel does not want peace.

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesD/orders1.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/melwak/f/iman_poem_files/e1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/melwak/f/FLASTEN25.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03UicJm1i75t6/610x.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_fGce0OaNn8w/R_I0cb4G...ians_jrl115.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_oMSFX5-1evI/RtWnzrbQ...9q-Z8/death.jpg
http://www.machlink.com/~ampal/wael1.jpg

So? that's an excuse to launch over 300 rockets into your neighbor's territory? Just means the IDF is better at it's job.

[gaia.plateau]

If the First Nations people (and I refrain from the term "Indian" because of it's inaccuracy, not due to any PC bullshit) started firing rockets while they were being systematically exterminated by the US government (that's another term for "genocide" for all of you keeping score at home), it would be considered reasonable defensive action by any rational person.

I've never defended the Palestinian militants firing RPGs into Israeli territory; violence is always wrong. That said, as the famous Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh said in so many words during his campaign against the Vietnam war, violence of liberation is less wrong than violence of institution, and the former is too frequently necessary to resolve the latter.

So while I completely disagree with the violent resistance of Palestinians against Israeli aggression, and I would never say that either side is right, we need to be expressing far more criticism against the Israeli policies that routinely cut off food, water and fuel to Gaza, that continue to expand concentration camps for Palestinian political prisoners, which aggressively and actively continue war-making and war-mongering, and which have for decades been undertaking a massive propaganda campaign within their own borders and internationally, especially in the United States.

It's one thing for individual people acting of individual motive to launch RPGs against buildings and storm into schools to gun down innocent people. It's another thing entirely for an entire country to displace entire populations, imprison and exterminate innocent people, and keep hundreds of thousands of innocent people in constant fear of their life and the lives of their families.

As someone who has dedicated their life to the pursuit of peace with no real concern for human life itself, I tend to concentrate on the undeniable fact that Israel has done infinitely more to damage peace in the Middle East than any Arab country. That doesn't make them "the bad guy", and it doesn't make any other group "right", it's just the reality of the region.

[mushrat]

If the First Nations people (and I refrain from the term "Indian" because of it's inaccuracy, not due to any PC bullshit) started firing rockets while they were being systematically exterminated by the US government (that's another term for "genocide" for all of you keeping score at home), it would be considered reasonable defensive action by any rational person.

I've never defended the Palestinian militants firing RPGs into Israeli territory; violence is always wrong. That said, as the famous Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh said in so many words during his campaign against the Vietnam war, violence of liberation is less wrong than violence of institution, and the former is too frequently necessary to resolve the latter.

So while I completely disagree with the violent resistance of Palestinians against Israeli aggression, and I would never say that either side is right, we need to be expressing far more criticism against the Israeli policies that routinely cut off food, water and fuel to Gaza, that continue to expand concentration camps for Palestinian political prisoners, which aggressively and actively continue war-making and war-mongering, and which have for decades been undertaking a massive propaganda campaign within their own borders and internationally, especially in the United States.

It's one thing for individual people acting of individual motive to launch RPGs against buildings and storm into schools to gun down innocent people. It's another thing entirely for an entire country to displace entire populations, imprison and exterminate innocent people, and keep hundreds of thousands of innocent people in constant fear of their life and the lives of their families.

As someone who has dedicated their life to the pursuit of peace with no real concern for human life itself, I tend to concentrate on the undeniable fact that Israel has done infinitely more to damage peace in the Middle East than any Arab country. That doesn't make them "the bad guy", and it doesn't make any other group "right", it's just the reality of the region.

Ok..so the Palistinians HAD their own country.but they sided with the wrong team in 48 and lost it. Thats how land wars go, you back the wrong side, you lose your land. How about the Arab countries that got the Palistinians into this situation helping out? But no, they don't want them either as long as they act as they do. Where are the surrounding Arab neighbors who shout loud and long about the poor palistinians? Are they letting them into their countries? NO. The Egyptians let them accross the boarder only because they tored down the gates. And sealed it back up as fast as they could without shooting people. Now don't get me wrong, I know a number of Palistinians here in the US and we all have a fine time hanging out. But ask yourself, why havent their "friends" let them settle in their countries? Why have they been left to rot by their Arab neighbors. Open the boarders, let them in, and then see what you get.

Before you start screamign that the Israelies should be doign soemthing for their enemies, how about getting the "friends" of the palistinians to lend a hand. Hell, the Palestinians themselves can't even get along, they have been killign each other faster than anyone else has. How about digging up figures on the number of Palestinians killed by other palestinians eh? Fatah vs Hamas. Who the hell do the Israelies have to negotiate WITH? If the palestinians would stop killing each other long enough to form a government that the rest fo the world can deal with, then you might see some progress. Oh, and for a group of people who won't recognise a country that has been around since 1948 to cry because no one will recognise them is just pathetic.

This is what happens when you lose a war.

[gaia.plateau]

Ok..so the Palistinians HAD their own country.but they sided with the wrong team in 48 and lost it. Thats how land wars go, you back the wrong side, you lose your land.

And yet neither Germany nor Japan lost any land (that they didn't conquer during the war). Further the Israelis didn't even exist, let alone defeat Palestine- can you think of a historical precedent where land was carved out of a country to be given to someone that didn't fight?

The Palestinians were forced from their homes, schools, jobs and hospitals not because they allied with the losers of a war, but because of an appeasement policy reactive from the Holocaust.

This is all regardless though, the discussion is not about whether Israel has the right to exist, it's about whether they have the right to commit genocide.

How about the Arab countries that got the Palistinians into this situation helping out? But no, they don't want them either as long as they act as they do. Where are the surrounding Arab neighbors who shout loud and long about the poor palistinians? Are they letting them into their countries? NO. The Egyptians let them accross the boarder only because they tored down the gates. And sealed it back up as fast as they could without shooting people. Now don't get me wrong, I know a number of Palistinians here in the US and we all have a fine time hanging out. But ask yourself, why havent their "friends" let them settle in their countries? Why have they been left to rot by their Arab neighbors. Open the boarders, let them in, and then see what you get.

Because they are not nuclear powers, and both Israel and the United States are. Nuclear diplomacy 101: if you've got the bombs, you call the shots.

Before you start screamign that the Israelies should be doign soemthing for their enemies,

Who is screaming? Who is saying that the Israelis should be bringing muffin and fruit baskets to Palestinian homes (and by homes, I of course mean piles of rubble).

The only thing I've said is that the individual Palestinian militants should stop firing RPGs, and the Israeli government should repudiate their Final Solution policy while they still can.

Hell, the Palestinians themselves can't even get along, they have been killign each other faster than anyone else has.

I don't think this is supported by the facts, especially since Gaza civilians have been dying far, far, far more rapidly from malnutrition and dehydration that anyone in the Middle East is from bullets and bombs. That tends to happen when a country cuts off water and food for entire populations to make a political point.

This is what happens when you lose a war.

Easy to say for anyone living in a country which has never fought in a war where it had something to lose, like you or I.

[mushrat]

Congrats, yo have managed to sidestep every major point I brought up with non-answers.

Minutes after the British left what was then palistine the arabs countries surrounding the 2 states that were created, invaded. The british did everythign in their power it make it easy for the Jews to be destroyed, read your history, not Wikipedia or Fox news. These arab neighbors came through the territory set aside by the UN for the Palestinians on the west bank to invade with the help of the palistinians, many of whome moved off the the boarders to await the promise of "the land of the jews" when Israel was destroyed. You can again look up these facts.

Then with the help of last minute aid from the US, Israel not only defeated their neighbors, but pushed them back and occupied the Palistinian territory to act as a buffer to assure that they would have time to react in case of another attack. I have BEEN to the Golan heights where Syrian? artilery was located on mountains overlookign the valleys below where they shelled kibbutzes every day for years. Israel needed sucurity on a scale that we don't understand since we arent surrounded by coutries that have openly sworn to destroy their country. Do the research.

If you don't think the whole situation with Hamas is more about Isreal's right to exist and less about a home territory, you need to open your eyes and quit watchign TV. The right of Israel to exist is the MAIN issue when it comes to Hamas and thier allies Hazbola. If you think otherwise you shouldn't be in this conversation.

Now, show me ONE, ONE relaible report that palestinians are dying from malnitrition or dehydration. Thats bullshit. Even while non-essentials are beign kept out, Israel still allows in food and other basic supplies. Not to say life is good but I do not believe people are starving.

And what exactly do nuclear weapons have to do with other arab countries letting palistinians into their contries? I do not recall anyone at any time saysing other countries can't take them in. Care to respond with something relivant?

Piles of rubble huh? go look at the pictures ont he news, these "camps" are full blown cities. Look around for pictures man. Don't merely blindly regurgitate what you have been told. Use your own eyes and mind.

Oh thats right, hundreds of palistinians weren't killed when Hamas took over Gaza...my mistake..they all starved to death. Give me a break.

We've never faught a war woth nothing to lose? Um, while i know you are young, what exactly do you think would have happened in WW2 if germany had taken ove rthe rest of europe, africa, etc..they would have stopped at the US and Canadian boarders and went, "ok, we got enough." your ignorance and oversimplified world view makes it very difficulat to carry on any sort of educated conversation.

I noticed you never answered the real question..who exactly do the Israelies negotiate a settlement WITH? SHow me a government that speaks for, if not represents, the Palistinian people who can enforce a peaceful settlement. So Israel shoudl give up the "final solution" interestign refrence, comparing Nazis with Israelies, and what do the Palestinians give up. It's hard to negotiate from a weaker position. That's the harsh realities of life.

Oh, and when i see israelies leadign palistinians into death capms loaded with ovens, then you are free to make that comparison, until then, i'd be very careful.

[mushrat]

ah yes..and befor ei forget. the reason Palistinian civilian casualties are higher is because Hamas puts it's installations in heavily popluated areas, they especially like putting AA batteries on top of hospitals and firing rockets from school yards and crowded neighborhoods. You can look that up too.

[gaia.plateau]

Congrats, yo have managed to sidestep every major point I brought up with non-answers.

I choose to read this as "You have managed to sidestep all the non-answers I used as major points". It's really a matter of emphasis and inflection.

Now, show me ONE, ONE relaible report that palestinians are dying from malnitrition or dehydration. Thats bullshit. Even while non-essentials are beign kept out, Israel still allows in food and other basic supplies. Not to say life is good but I do not believe people are starving.

...

Oh thats right, hundreds of palistinians weren't killed when Hamas took over Gaza...my mistake..they all starved to death. Give me a break.

It's easy to not believe something that we don't want to believe, if we turn our heads the other way. I googled "Gaza + Malnutrition" and found these in less than a second, I can just link hits 9-129387234 if the first 8 aren't sufficient.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7766509.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/mi...el-1019521.html
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...nce%2FHSELayout
http://www.iranian.com/main/news/2008/12/0...n-and-shortages
http://medc2org.wordpress.com/2008/12/05/f...-and-shortages/
http://www.bt.com.bn/en/analysis/2008/12/0...n_and_shortages
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleea...4029311807.html
http://azz200.instablogs.com/entry/inside-...-and-shortages/

And what exactly do nuclear weapons have to do with other arab countries letting palistinians into their contries? I do not recall anyone at any time saysing other countries can't take them in.

Accepting Palestinian refugees would put political pressure on Palestine, and since it is in the interest of countries like Iran and Syria to support Palestine, they don't do it. Why do you think the US is pressuring countries to accept Palestinian refugees? Why did they do it for Cuba? Do you really think I've studied refugee movements for 4 years under some of the smartest people in the world, and learned nothing?

I noticed you never answered the real question..who exactly do the Israelies negotiate a settlement WITH? SHow me a government that speaks for, if not represents, the Palistinian people who can enforce a peaceful settlement. So Israel shoudl give up the "final solution" interestign refrence, comparing Nazis with Israelies, and what do the Palestinians give up. It's hard to negotiate from a weaker position. That's the harsh realities of life.

I don't make it a habit to state the obvious... Hamas, the Palestinian legally elected government (monitored by the UN and many reputable individuals such as Jimmy Carter), has offered nearly two dozen peace aggreements to the Israeli government, I think 2 or 3 have been accepted short term and the rest were shot down because they did not include Palestine's complete submission into illegal subjucation.

We've never faught a war woth nothing to lose? Um, while i know you are young, what exactly do you think would have happened in WW2 if germany had taken ove rthe rest of europe, africa, etc..they would have stopped at the US and Canadian boarders and went, "ok, we got enough." your ignorance and oversimplified world view makes it very difficulat to carry on any sort of educated conversation.

And was there any chance you would have lost in WW2 when you entered, after it was basically over? The reality is that WW2 ended in Stalingrad, by the individual Russians who were driven to hate Hitler even more than they hated Stalin, and who received zero help from the Brits, Yanks, Canucks, and etc. because we knew we were going to win the war and we put the imperative to combat socialism above the importance of those soldiers' lives. So no, I'm right, neither the US nor Canada had anything to lose in WW2.

Oh, and when i see israelies leadign palistinians into death capms loaded with ovens, then you are free to make that comparison, until then, i'd be very careful.

Ah, I see... so the Nazis weren't wrong to force the Jews to wear stars of David, to put them in Ghettos, destroy their businesses, kidnap their loved ones, and assassinate and imprison based on ethnicity? It wasn't until the actual ovens were included that it became wrong? There are no ovens in Israel, because 1) this is the 21st century, not 1940, and 2) it hasn't gotten to that point yet. Everything else I've given as comparisons is currently happening, google it or search some academic journals, you'll find that this is 100% accurate.

Do the research.
...
Do the research.
...
Do the research.
...
Do the research.

Do as I say, not as I do?

Care to respond with something relivant?

If you don't think the whole situation with Hamas is more about Isreal's right to exist and less about a home territory, you need to open your eyes and quit watchign TV.

The right of Israel to exist is the MAIN issue when it comes to Hamas and thier allies Hazbola. If you think otherwise you shouldn't be in this conversation.

read your history, not Wikipedia or Fox news

Congrats, yo have managed to sidestep every major point I brought up with non-answers.

If anyone else made these remarks, especially in disagreement with you, they'd probably be on vactation and the thread would certainly be closed. Are these really your definition of "civil"?

This conversation will be kept civil. Only warning.

Your argument in your last 3 posts has simply been "you disagree with me, therefore you are wrong and an idiot". I don't see the point in continuing.

[Johnny_D]

Gaia may I suggest that any British based news media is horribly Anti Israeli in any
reporting....

Just something to consider when using UK Based web references.

I am more than willing to accept that people are starving to death in palatine. This is not the fault of anyone
apart from the government of Hamas. When all your aid is spent of weapons people are going to starve.

You do rather come across, Gaia my friend, as someone who might be pro-palastine. I probably come across
as Pro-Israeli.

Everyone has a bias, let us at least put our cards on the table as it were.

Cheers,

JD

[gaia.plateau]

I just linked the first 8 sources

I'm really not pro-Palestinian, in fact I define myself as not being pro-anyone. It's just that because there is such widely spread pro-Israeli propaganda in Canada and the US, I usually end up arguing/debating with extremely pro-Israeli people. Objectivity and the pursuit of truth require that one takes the counterposition of who they're arguing with, especially if there are important facts being directly omitted.

Just ask my Iraqi friend and hookah enthusiast Wasim... he's very pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli, and whenever we debate this issue I take the pro-Israeli position.

Everyone has a bias by their experiences and decisions in life- in my case, most of my experiences and decisions in the last 5 or 6 years have specifically and deliberately been to not be biased. Some people practice basketball every minute of every day and join the NBA, I practice objectivity every minute of every day. Edited December 30, 2008 by gaia.plateau

[Johnny_D]

If your practiced objectivity is correct then you are probably the acception that proves the rule.

I'm not even sure how one would begin to try and be objective in regard to the middle east problems. But I take your point and accept that.

Maybe because I live in a country that is mostly Anti Israeli that I have developed my position (and of course I have family in Israel yada yada yada)

Cheers,

JD

[r1v3th3ad]

This conversation will be kept civil. Only warning.
For those of you in the US here's something to think about. And this is no disparagement to Indians.
Say the Indian Reservation in Iowa starts lobbing rockets into downtown Demoines. What would our first reaction be? to roll the army in and take care of business. The US wouldn't give a DAMN what the international community would say. So before people start sayign the responce is unreasonable, think about your uncle Charley living in Pocatello and then think how you'd react.
Not the same thing? Then you aren't paying attention.

I think the Indians would be in the right to do so...it was their land that Britain started to re-appropriate, then when the U.S. formed...yeah, the shit hit the fan with that. So, I feel the Indians would be in the right, but the opposing gov(U.S.) would step in and crush them...as I feel with Israel.

Ok..so the Palistinians HAD their own country.but they sided with the wrong team in 48 and lost it. Thats how land wars go, you back the wrong side, you lose your land.

And yet neither Germany nor Japan lost any land (that they didn't conquer during the war). Further the Israelis didn't even exist, let alone defeat Palestine- can you think of a historical precedent where land was carved out of a country to be given to someone that didn't fight?
The Palestinians were forced from their homes, schools, jobs and hospitals not because they allied with the losers of a war, but because of an appeasement policy reactive from the Holocaust.

And this is my prejudice in this argument I was not disclosing. I'm sure now I'm being labeled anti-semantic, but I'm not. I just really feel that that land should not have been re-appropriated do to some crackpot religious contract(The Covenant making that land the promised land). The Jews held that land for a long time...I'm not gonna search dates, but one time in particular that sticks out in my head was during Roman times. Just because it is this God given land and they held it through temporal periods of time, does not mean that the land should be stolen from others and given back to them a millennium from the last holding time.
I'm gonna let gaia try to defuse my point, because I now know he looks from both sides and I think he might know where I am coming from...My brain is fried from illness and work...so I don't have the ambition to go on further making an ass out of myself.
...maybe once I'm recuperated, I'll try to go further on this and try to explain myself better.