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[Bye bye now have fun]

the point is that he publicly enforced violating the constitution and him saying that there would be change and transparency and all the other crap. and it only happens because people let it happen. we are doing the same shit that our founders left england because. if people didnt put up with crap and made head roll it would stop. and the longer im in this major the more i see national security is a joke and just a veil for doing what ever you please

My founding fathers didn't come from England. They were here waiting on the English founding fathers to commit genocide against them despite having helped them survive in the first place. (Sorry if that offends - but it's a sore point for reasons I'm sure you can understand.)

The problem is that when any government whether of a country or a business is totally empowered, it becomes an entity in and of itself. As such it will have it's own view of what is and is not legal, moral, etc. And it will act in it's own best interest regardless of it's responsibility towards it's citizens, employees, and so forth. On top of that you add the fact that corruption is rampant in our entire system from Capitol Hill all the way down to the local police precinct. All of which pretty much guarantees that you are right - national security is a veil for doing as they please. While I completely agree that things should change and in fact our constitution insists that if the government ceases to serve us it should be overthrown, should anyone try doing so, there's that clause in other documents called treason and with the insititution of the Patriot Act, you don't even get a lawyer to defend you against the accusation. Is it fair and equitable? Absolutely not. Is it going to change in any of our lifetimes? Very, very unlikely.

'Rani

regardless of where our ancestry came from, the founders of this nation ran away from england. personally im irish, welsh and german so most of my blood has nothing to do with england. and if you really want to get into it they can just hit you with conspericy to comit treason. that way you dont even have to do it just plan it or talk to another person about it and you will be convicted. also how will the government hit 100,000 or 10,000 people with treason. it would look extremely poor on the government to execute or imprison that many of its own citizens.

[Rani]

the point is that he publicly enforced violating the constitution and him saying that there would be change and transparency and all the other crap. and it only happens because people let it happen. we are doing the same shit that our founders left england because. if people didnt put up with crap and made head roll it would stop. and the longer im in this major the more i see national security is a joke and just a veil for doing what ever you please

My founding fathers didn't come from England. They were here waiting on the English founding fathers to commit genocide against them despite having helped them survive in the first place. (Sorry if that offends - but it's a sore point for reasons I'm sure you can understand.)

The problem is that when any government whether of a country or a business is totally empowered, it becomes an entity in and of itself. As such it will have it's own view of what is and is not legal, moral, etc. And it will act in it's own best interest regardless of it's responsibility towards it's citizens, employees, and so forth. On top of that you add the fact that corruption is rampant in our entire system from Capitol Hill all the way down to the local police precinct. All of which pretty much guarantees that you are right - national security is a veil for doing as they please. While I completely agree that things should change and in fact our constitution insists that if the government ceases to serve us it should be overthrown, should anyone try doing so, there's that clause in other documents called treason and with the insititution of the Patriot Act, you don't even get a lawyer to defend you against the accusation. Is it fair and equitable? Absolutely not. Is it going to change in any of our lifetimes? Very, very unlikely.

'Rani

regardless of where our ancestry came from, the founders of this nation ran away from england. personally im irish, welsh and german so most of my blood has nothing to do with england. and if you really want to get into it they can just hit you with conspericy to comit treason. that way you dont even have to do it just plan it or talk to another person about it and you will be convicted. also how will the government hit 100,000 or 10,000 people with treason. it would look extremely poor on the government to execute or imprison that many of its own citizens.

Let's take this to private debate via PM because I suspect it could get lenthy and I do mean the invitation in the interest of intelligent and respectful debate. Fair deal?

'Rani

[liquidglass]

My founding fathers didn't come from England. They were here waiting on the English founding fathers to commit genocide against them despite having helped them survive in the first place. (Sorry if that offends - but it's a sore point for reasons I'm sure you can understand.)

*Now I'm not trying to start any sort of fight, just felt that a point should be made. You may not like it, and that's ok, it's simply here for you to interpret it as you wish*


No I honestly do not understand why it's a sore point. If you were there, if you survived the marches and small pox, and were forced to live on small holds of land back in that time. Not only do I think you should feel sore, I think you should turn yourself over to science so they can figure out how you age so gracefully.

It happened so long ago, and not to you, to your ancestors, by others ancestors. (And not my ancestors because of my genealogy) So you're still sore about something you've only read about and possibly heard about from bias stories that have degraded over time. You're holding a grudge that's not even yours to hold.

Every single person has someone of their race that was killed or enslaved without reason. But how many of them do you see holding a 'sore spot' for it? Even some more recent than yours (eg: remember the Nazis?)

There's more, but I think I jacked this thread enough. Even if you don't care for it, at least consider the point of view.


Oh and by the way, I have German, French, English and Cherokee Ancestry. So If i held a sore spot I would wake up every morning hating myself.

[TheScotsman]

Here's something to cogitate over. The price of oil has dropped, the main cause of the recession has been lifted, the economy will get going by itself...so are these "bailouts" just handouts at the taxpayer's expense? I'm not saying I believe it, but it could be said.

Agreed completely, (even if you aren't believing it.) yet we see now we have Life Insurance carriers lining up for a handout.

Now, I think the whole debacle is getting insane, I do like the fact the current administration has decided that any company taking the gov't bailout also gets the gov't intervention. While I am completely against the feds handling any business interests (look at the mess they made of any past government enterprises... like fannie May) I can't help but to think the biggest deterent against a CEO lining his company up at the taxpayer-trough is the ensuing regulation, micromanagement, and intervention of the gov't. Since the last admin didn't put any need testing in place, I guess this is just as good.


Once uppon a time when a company got so big that it's failure would cause a national problem, or it's size made it impossible to compete against, the Gov't broke the company up (standard oil, At&t). Just when did that aproach become the help-them-stay-big that we have now?

[Rani]

My founding fathers didn't come from England. They were here waiting on the English founding fathers to commit genocide against them despite having helped them survive in the first place. (Sorry if that offends - but it's a sore point for reasons I'm sure you can understand.)

*Now I'm not trying to start any sort of fight, just felt that a point should be made. You may not like it, and that's ok, it's simply here for you to interpret it as you wish*


No I honestly do not understand why it's a sore point. If you were there, if you survived the marches and small pox, and were forced to live on small holds of land back in that time. Not only do I think you should feel sore, I think you should turn yourself over to science so they can figure out how you age so gracefully.

It happened so long ago, and not to you, to your ancestors, by others ancestors. (And not my ancestors because of my genealogy) So you're still sore about something you've only read about and possibly heard about from bias stories that have degraded over time. You're holding a grudge that's not even yours to hold.

Every single person has someone of their race that was killed or enslaved without reason. But how many of them do you see holding a 'sore spot' for it? Even some more recent than yours (eg: remember the Nazis?)

There's more, but I think I jacked this thread enough. Even if you don't care for it, at least consider the point of view.


Oh and by the way, I have German, French, English and Cherokee Ancestry. So If i held a sore spot I would wake up every morning hating myself.

Again, let's go to friendly private debate and I'll explain why I feel how I feel. Feel free to PM.

'Rani

[Rani]

Here's something to cogitate over. The price of oil has dropped, the main cause of the recession has been lifted, the economy will get going by itself...so are these "bailouts" just handouts at the taxpayer's expense? I'm not saying I believe it, but it could be said.

Agreed completely, (even if you aren't believing it.) yet we see now we have Life Insurance carriers lining up for a handout.

Now, I think the whole debacle is getting insane, I do like the fact the current administration has decided that any company taking the gov't bailout also gets the gov't intervention. While I am completely against the feds handling any business interests (look at the mess they made of any past government enterprises... like fannie May) I can't help but to think the biggest deterent against a CEO lining his company up at the taxpayer-trough is the ensuing regulation, micromanagement, and intervention of the gov't. Since the last admin didn't put any need testing in place, I guess this is just as good.


Once uppon a time when a company got so big that it's failure would cause a national problem, or it's size made it impossible to compete against, the Gov't broke the company up (standard oil, At&t). Just when did that aproach become the help-them-stay-big that we have now?

Good grief....... Everybody look for the second coming because for once, Scotsman and I are in complete agreement!

'Rani

[liquidglass]

If you wish to make a point you may PM me, but no matter the reasoning you never experienced any of these things personally just indirectly through ancestors as I did on both sides. If you have a point that can supercede this I ask that you to PM me, intelligent conversation is always interesting.

Back to your thread guys