SimplexCoda Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 In brazil a 9 year old girl who had been raped by her step-father and the mother helps her get an abortion. The local clergy decides to excommunicate the mother and doctors for the abortion, but cares not about the sexual assault by a family member.Read the full story here: Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indian_villager Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 The world my friend is fucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An1m Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (indian_villager @ Mar 5 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The world my friend is fucked.I second thatAnd methinks that the head Bishop of whatever archdiocese this church falls under decides Edited March 5, 2009 by An1m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimplexCoda Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 QUOTE (indian_villager @ Mar 5 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The world my friend is fucked.The worst part is these people are supposed to uphold the values of God. The archbishop is even qouted as saying "Gods law is above mans". So if thats true dont you think he should concern him self with the step-father just as much as the abortion? I fully believe that Gods law is above our own, but i also believe that God grants us free will and desires our saftey, If the girl is 9 and can not support these embryos how is that safe? If the step-father is abusing the children, how is that safe? I realize the world is messed up, but i expect better from a person whos life calling is to attempt to spread Gods will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K1024 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 fuck the what? thats seriously messed up. although i think only the pope can excommunicate right? idk im not catholic but its ridiculous to think that no catholics can talk to her mother or the doctors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylank0010 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 people do strange things in the name of religion. i'm not even going to start mentioning examples because we all know them and it just pisses me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapten Kanel Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 This is a fucked up world...I see religion as a belief that gives you "strength", may it be in a god or your driving skill, it doesnt matter. This horrible crap has nothing to do with religion, its more like a fucked up culture/"enviroment" issue. Haha, its "gods law", yeah right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScotsman Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 QUOTE (indian_villager @ Mar 5 2009, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The world my friend is fucked.That is the single most truthful thing I have heard in months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judgeposer Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 QUOTE (SimplexCoda @ Mar 5 2009, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In brazil a 9 year old girl who had been raped by her step-father and the mother helps her get an abortion. The local clergy decides to excommunicate the mother and doctors for the abortion, but cares not about the sexual assault by a family member.Read the full story here: LinkI should first say that I am trained in law, though American, common law, not Canon Law of the Catholic Church. Although I did study Canon Law in law school, I do not have a license to practice it, but the legal analysis done by canon lawyers isn't dissimilar to the sort of legal analysis I have training in.To answer the question of who decides this "stuff," as in who decides who gets excommunicated, that's decided to some extent by Canon law, which for certain offenses prescribes excommunication latae sententiae, which means literally given sentence, but conceptually means by simply committing the act itself. For other offenses against Canon law, excommunication results from a trial or some inquisition of the facts and circumstances of the offense. As for abortion, it carries the penalty of excommunication latae sententiae, which means that simply in procuring an abortion, the mother is excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Excommunications means that through some act, the person has separated from the communion of the Church. While we're inclined to construe this as a penalty, it is canonically thought of more as a proclamation of the person to withdraw from the Church's communion. Until that person seeks forgiveness for the offense, they will remain outside the Church. From Canon law, canon 1398 states that "[a] person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication." Again, this means that the act of procuring an abortion, albeit a completed one, excommunicates that person. Canon law further states in canon 1329 that "[a]ccomplices who are not named in a law or precept incur a latae sententiae penalty attached to a delict if without their assistance the delict would not have been committed, and the penalty is of such a nature that it can affect them; otherwise, they can be punished by ferendae sententiae penalties." Without getting into what Canon law defines as ferendae sententiae penalties, for our purposes this canon means that whoever assists (but isn't named in the law) a person to commit such an offense, and without that assistance the offense would not have taken place, that person (read: accomplice) will suffer the same penalty as the one he assists. In our case, that provision brings within the ambit of excommunitive ambit of canon 1398 those who assist women in procuring abortions. Again, in this case, that means that the Catholic mother and doctors who provided the abortion for the young girl are too excommunicated by their act of assistance of something that carries the sentence of excommunication. For her part, since the young girl is, well, young, and we have no indication of intention on her part, she doesn't suffer the sentence of excommunication. Whereas, her mother and doctors, for whom we have ample indication of intent to abort, must suffer the sentence of excommunication pursuant to Canon law.I don't believe we can say anything about whether the Church authorities care about the alleged rapist step-father. His alleged crime simply does not fall within their jurisdiction--yet. Brazilian law, I believe, has the same presumption of innocence (or presumption of non guilt, as I think they term it). His alleged crime must still be proven. What the doctors have concluded might be evidence suggesting the man's guilt, but he has so far not stood trial for the offense - at least not at the time of the news story. If the step-father is proven guilty of rape, perhaps Canon law will have something to say, but I don't know. QUOTE (An1m @ Mar 5 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>QUOTE (indian_villager @ Mar 5 2009, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The world my friend is fucked.I second thatAnd methinks that the head Bishop of whatever archdiocese this church falls under decidesThe Bishop? - That's somewhat and sometimes the case. The Bishop here, as I understood, made clear the Church law on the topic, but in this case, he did not nor did he have to excommunicate the girl's mother or the doctors. Their respective intention and acts is what excommunicated them under Church law.QUOTE (SimplexCoda @ Mar 5 2009, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>QUOTE (indian_villager @ Mar 5 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The world my friend is fucked.The worst part is these people are supposed to uphold the values of God. The archbishop is even qouted as saying "Gods law is above mans". So if thats true dont you think he should concern him self with the step-father just as much as the abortion? I fully believe that Gods law is above our own, but i also believe that God grants us free will and desires our saftey, If the girl is 9 and can not support these embryos how is that safe? If the step-father is abusing the children, how is that safe? I realize the world is messed up, but i expect better from a person whos life calling is to attempt to spread Gods will.I'm lost as to why this is such an issue really. The Church here simply exercises her jurisdiction over her members, much the same as any organization, state, or nation would over those in its care. In other words, the Church has said through its laws how it endeavors to deal with those who defy its teachings and rules, again, much the same as any authority's legal code binds any of its members. Simply having free will doesn't excuse misuse of our freedom. We have the free will to commit crime, but if we do, we submit ourselves to the judgment of our peers and the penalty of the law. Similarly here, Catholics, through their membership in the Catholic Church submit to its laws. Defying those laws can oftentimes carry sentences, the most severe of which excludes you from membership so long as you don't seek forgiveness for your actions.QUOTE (K1024 @ Mar 5 2009, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>fuck the what? thats seriously messed up. although i think only the pope can excommunicate right? idk im not catholic but its ridiculous to think that no catholics can talk to her mother or the doctors...See above.To be sure, my heart goes out to this girl and her family - even her step-father, who, given his flee, probably needs the help of justice's swift hand. We have to distinguish, however, the alleged crime of rape, the biological reality of her improbable gestation, and the Church's authority to enforce its laws, especially on those members who defy them. While all these factors interrelate, when analyzing them, we have to place them in their respective contexts. 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ilikemyusername Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 dogma rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonthert Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 Lot, the most holiest man in Sodom, sent his daughters to be raped by the townspeople so that an angel would be safe from the mob. I wouldn't really rely on Christianity for admonishment of papa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An1m Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 QUOTE (ilikemyusername @ Apr 5 2009, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>dogma rules.Like Sonthert said, I wouldn't really chalk it up to dogma, there's plenty of bad examples to be found in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Ninja Robot Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I was excommunicated from my church of which I was VERY involved for years. It was a "non-demnomenational" church, very free of spirit < facecismVery bitter subject for me.Organized religion sucks the big one. And by that I mean penis.And THAT is my intelligent contribution to this thread.Not one bit suprised by the OP article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyj316 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Catholicism....WOW...I'm not going to go into my many gripes against the Catholic Church... but, what I will say is... its a bit fucked up that priests who molest little kids don't get excommunicated, but a mother who procured an abortion for her 9 year old daughter after being raped (which the girl stood more than a 50% chance of dying if she were to have the child) gets excommunicated...Oh, and the pope looks like the dark Sith lord....coincidence? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_steve Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Welcome to the world of organized religion. Where asinine thought is the norm.Given, it's not all religion that is like this, just the ones where people with a skewed world view are allowed to be "authorities" in their religion. Look at the pope for some examples....given he's thinking of a perfect world with many of his statements, but we live in an imperfect world, and have to adjust accordingly.What the hell happened to "judge not"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Nagus Zek Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (SimplexCoda @ Mar 5 2009, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>QUOTE (indian_villager @ Mar 5 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The world my friend is fucked.I realize the world is messed up, but i expect better from a person whos life calling is to attempt to spread Gods will.Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.I personally don't "expect" good people just because they talk of god or "work for god", unfortunately some of the most horrendous acts in human history were carried out in one gods name or another (the crusades, inquisition). but millions have been killed over atheism as well (USSR, Cultural Revolution).That is why I personally believe in God but not in Organized Religions. Any religion or spiritual belief that has a large organizational structure, even if pure at first, is doomed to corruption if left alive long enough. Edited April 23, 2009 by Grand Nagus Zek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moatilliatta Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 QUOTE (SimplexCoda @ Mar 5 2009, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I Wonder Who Decides This StuffThat would be the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremyk Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 the church always does alot of things without thinking before they act Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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