Opinion: Most Shisha Out There Is Mediocre To Bad

[Majid]

This is what i have concluded after going on a huge flavour trying binge. Even if i hadn't though, it was already how i felt. Most brands have a hand full of good flavours and the rest taste rancid, nothing like the flavour it is supposed to be. Bought a truckload of al waha 50 grams and only really liked lemon-mint and after nine. Mint, lemon and DA were decent. The rest was dissapointing, smoking grape right now and it tastes horrible. The same can be said for many nakhla flavours(what i've been smoking mostly througout the years). DA, sweet melon, mandarin, peach and a few more taste good, most others mediocre to bad. It's not heat management or packing either, i get the clouds, it doesn't taste burned. How do you guys feel about this matter? Is it just that i've been getting the wrong brands or a personal preference or do others agree?

[Balthazar]

I agree. This is not going to be a controversial statement here, but I find Tangiers to be the brand with most "great" flavors. To bad I can only get 1/3 of them to acclimate properly. After that I'd put Nakhla, some of it's flavors aren't all that, but most of them are great. I have yet to find a single flavor from Starbuzz or Fantasia that I feel justifies the price, and that keeps me from trying out the flavors I have yet to try. AF has a handful of flavors I'm fond of, and Layalina is hit and miss. As a result my days of shisha adventureism is long gone, I'm going to stick to a handful of Nakhla, Tangiers and AF.

[no longer welcome]

I'm feeling the same way. Now with Tangeirs they have great flavors but I have to stick with Lucid, Nakhla is great but a bit mild in flavor. AF is pretty good but having consistency problems. The others that smell nice but smoke bad will either burn out within 15m or give you a scratchy throat. It's all recycled Al Waha for the most part, with nicer labels on it.
I've been getting bored but have been sticking to nakhla bc I can smoke it for hours and not feel sick in any way.

[newjacksm]

I'm feeling the same way. Now with Tangeirs they have great flavors but I have to stick with Lucid, Nakhla is great but a bit mild in flavor. AF is pretty good but having consistency problems. The others that smell nice but smoke bad will either burn out within 15m or give you a scratchy throat. It's all recycled Al Waha for the most part, with nicer labels on it.
I've been getting bored but have been sticking to nakhla bc I can smoke it for hours and not feel sick in any way.

If Al Fakher was the way it use to be the market would def be a lot better. And if prices were better with Fusion and SB and all that crap I dont think we'd have a problem calling these flavors mediocre to good.

Hopefully one day Al Fakher will go back to the way it was. There Orange and Jasmine were phenomenal before they decided to change everything Edited May 3, 2009 by newjacksm

[dizzbizz]

I love AF. I smoked their orange recently and I though it was great. I haven't had too much Starbuzz, because of the price, but I got their sour apple and it easily made my top 5. The price hurts though. But I don't know. AF is great I haven't had too many complaints but I don't really go out on the limb either..

[Vladimir]

It's all in the eye of the beholder. My favorite two flavors still are probably Al Waha Watermelon and Guava. Smoked some Fusion raspberry the other night and I thought it tasted like almond (I won't say it was "bad" but it sucked!), meanwhile my smoking buddy said it was the greatest he had yet!

Flavor is all in the eye of the beholder, or the tongue in one's mouth or something cute like that.

[chromecarz00]

You tried al waha that was your problem...

[Zinite]

Tangiers is the only brand that is completely consistent for me. Every flavor I have tried tastes exactly like the real world counterpart. Every package is the same quality. The only hiccup is that some people (a lot of people it seems) can't get the acclimation right. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

[mattarios2]

Well everyone's pallet is different. I find every flavor from nakhla to be awesome except for 5 or 6 of them. But in terms of brands that are worthy to me, Tang (only a couple flavors cause most of the others i've tried won't acclimate), Nak, and Fusion.

Tang for strong flavor smoke and duration, big buzz, and different flavors no one else produces.

Nak for ease of use, big buzz, and strong long lasting flavors. (big smoke if you know how to pack it and add a lil glyc)

and lastly Fusion is my "new aged" shisha i smoke, it is the only brand of the new aged brands, that i find to last long, have great flavor, and stay very consistent. I like to keep it around for friends and family who don't like a big buzz and enjoy a more candy-ish taste.

Other than these 3 brands, I agree, most brands have a couple hits and the rest suck, in my experience at least, the only thing is that many may disagree because we all taste things differently.

[Bookworm]

Fumari has been really good to me.

[Canon]

my wife LOVES tangiers coco. i personally dont see anything special about it. theres other flavors that we each love and hate and sometimes ill love a flavor and shell hate it and vice versa.

[FactorE]

to me more than 60% of starbuzz is great. Fumari is hit or miss, but personally i do not like nakhla and af as well for now since their recent batches smells weird.

[TheShishaDoctor]

I've personally spent on average $200/month trying new tobaccos.... and I can definitely say that I only really love a small subset of what I've tried. Maybe 3 or 4 SB flavors, a few Nakhla, a few Fusion, a few AF, a couple Fantasia, etc. I've come nowhere near trying everything, but from my experience most shisha is crappy. I've started just re-ordering my favorites because it's so hit or miss trying something new.

[Sonthert]

If I may, I think Majid, there are some paradigms that most hookah tobacco companies operate on (Although I don't) that validates what your saying. Lets start at the beginning, Nakhla invented Two Apple (I was informed recently that they call it 2 apple, Double Apple is a registered trademark of Starbuzz). They have a number of flavors, besides double apple of course, but now Zarqa (Al Waha) comes along and says. Dump Nakhla, buy Al Waha instead. "Do you have Two Apples Flavor?", the shopkeeper replies. Al Waha says "No, we don't. Nakhla double apple is the best flavor of its kind on the market, it would be a disservice to knock it off." So the Shopkeeper says He'll think about it but keeps selling Nakhla, since Two Apple is one of the best selling flavors. Alternate reality "Yes, we have two apples and it is better than Nakhlas." Now he stands a chance of getting his foot in the door.

Each company came to believe that to be successful in stealing business from other competitors, they needed to have all the same flavors the other companies did. In this way, they will make a second-hand crummy knock off just to say they have it and claim that its the best. So, the majority of all flavors are only there to remain competitive versus other companies. They are mediocre, because they don't have any passion to make a good flavor, only to sell more tobacco. A line with 20 flavors will sell roughly half as much as a line with 40 flavors. More flavors, good or bad, more sales, because you have to sell all the flavors as part of your agreements.

As such, here's a list of flavors that Tangiers was the first on the market with, and a list of flavors I made because other companies were making them. Some flavors are just obvious, like apple, for instance. Nothing interesting, just it makes sense to have an apple.

Lemon Blossom-(Lemon Rose)-Knocked off by at least one company
Pineapple-I can't remember in Al Waha came up with it first or I did. I think I did. This flavor dates back to 2003 for me.
Melon Blend-Its a honeydew flavor, more or less. I was the first to make a honeydew melon, but Nakhla had already come out with melon, which was cantaloupe.
Orange Soda-Al Waha came out with an orange flavor first, its OK.
Green Apple-One of the holy grails of hookah flavors was eskanderani apple, for a long time. Mine came later.
Pink Grapefruit-Mine dates back to 2004. Nobody even thought about it until recently when I released a new Pink Grapefruit (which is a lot better than my old one)
Lemon-Lime-Tangiers first.
Watermelon-Tangiers first.
Peach-Al Waha first, although it was terrible.
Blueberry-Tangiers first.
Kashmir Apple-Tangiers was the first to release Kashmir...now you see "cardamom" flavors everywhere which are supposed to be rip-offs of it.
Liquorice-Anise flavors were known first, but Tangiers was the first to make a Black Licorice root flavor. Now they are more common.
Cocoa-Tangiers first for a chocolate flavor. Now they're being ripped off left and right.
Grape-Others came first
Kashmir Peach, Kashmir Cherry-See Kashmir Apple
Cinnamon (Although mine is kinda weak)-Tangiers first.
Butterscotch (we call it vanilla)-Tangiers first
Pear-Tangiers first. Other companies have made prickly pear flavors...but I don;t remember seeing a pear flavor specifically.
Raspberry-Tangiers first
Lime/Margarita-Tangiers first.
Blue Gum Ball-My second blueberry flavor...before anybody had even released one. Several rip-offs/improvements are out there.
Passionfruit-Tangiers first.
Guava-Al Waha first.
Red Tea-Inspired by an Arabic import. Mine is substantially different...and not what I wanted...but still great.
Pineapple Orange Pear (Tropical Revenge)-Others came first. I was the first to add pear, though...
Horchata-Tangiers first
Clove-Tangiers first
Cranberry-Mine's different, but others came first.
Brambleberry-I was inspired by other blackberry flavors, so others first, Al Amir's being fantastically popular.
Schnozzberry-Inspired by Al Waha Five Star
Spearmint-Others first...Al Waha I think.
Kiwi-Others first, although my spin is a little different.
Nectarine-Others first
Peach Iced Tea-Tangiers first...has anybody ripped off? I don't think so.
Lemon-I wasn't first.
Mimon-There were several very popular lemon-mints, so I dipped my oar in the water.
Maraschino Cherry-Obviously I wasn't the first cherry. i like to think its the best, though.
Grapefruit-Tangiers first.
Chocolate Mint-Such a rip offf on my part...although I was the first with a chocolate flavor...so am I entitled?
Tropical Punch-I got the idea from a customer who wanted something like Al Waha's "California Dream". I modified it significantly.

So, this all being said, did X know Tangiers made a blueberry flavor when they made it? I don't know. It would be a little prideful to say they did. When I first started making bowls, they were all short, brown and made of low-fire clay. Now, theres a number of bowls all over the place, but their clay is white, or appears white, they come in colors other than brown and dark amber. Some are being made of alternate materials. Many are being made "tall". I believe, right or wrong, if I hadn't made Tangiers bowls, they'd still be all brown, short and without phunnels on. I see more ripoffs of the phunnel than I know what to do with. Like One company decided to adapt the phunnel with their "own design", which was a third prototype for me, which I rejected (It has no hole on top of the phunnel, the holes are smaller and on the side of the phunnel). Except mine had eight holes on the side of the phunnel. So, in terms of bowls, I know theres a lot of ripping off going on. As far as flavors, I think its reasonable to assume some cross-ripping is going on, bit I think its a good thing. It raises the bar. The question is, that you have raised, what are the quality of those flavors? Generally pretty poor, but it depends. Some of the rip offs are better than the originals. Cinnamon, for instance, any rip-off of my cinnamon is superior to it. The problem is some people are dishonest and say "Oh, I thought of this all on my own." Like the phunnel-like bowl with holes on the side. Come-on. Props to those who gave me a good idea. If you're just ripping somebody off, say so. Why is it a crime to say "Other people have good ideas, too." Why is it some of these tobacco companies have to insist they invented everything? What do you think the quality of those "inventions" are? Just like you said, the majority of the market is mediocre at best. Thats why we have Hookah Forums, so we find out who has the best lemon flavor.

What about Mango? I made a mango, but never released it for various reasons. Will the world come to an end if I don't have a mango? Of course not. I will get to it, in my own time. It will be right by my standards, I'm not going to release one until I think its right. That being said, Root Beer and Cinnamon were really good when I first tried them. There was no standard, no bar, so what I thought was the best possible was going to be bested by others and I tip my hat to them. I will come back around and get new ones, just in my time.

The other companies seem to have the attitude that they have to release a flavor when somebody else has one. Al Fakher and Starbuzz being notable exceptions. They do their own thing when they want to. Nahkla seems to make a flavor when enough people want it, from other brands...they are #1 after all, sometimes they act like it. Now here's the jacked up thing to think about...if you had that opinion, would you potentially release a bad flavor to try and diminish the prominence of your competitors? That is, I release a terrible Double Apple just to try an convince people that Double Apple isn't that good. If they try mine first...will they be less likely to try Nakhla's? Even if they do, will they be less likely to like it? Can I hurt Nahkla by making a crappy Double Apple flavor? Could crummy flavors be by design in some cases? I'll leave this last point to lay around for you to ponder.

Was this helpful at all?

[Majid]

That was very helpfull indeed. Didn't expect such a detailed answer at all, thanks! So a factor in this is basically: Company X releases a product, Y releases the same flavour, may/may not know it's not good but it can make money and improve its market share. I can understand that. I guess that system will still cause some gems to be released every now and then and the customers can cling to those. Too bad we can't filter out the products made with passion and love without spending our money first. I know i sound cheap but that's the result of having about 7 flavours i'll probably never finish laying on my shelf today.

The other companies seem to have the attitude that they have to release a flavor when somebody else has one. Al Fakher and Starbuzz being notable exceptions. They do their own thing when they want to. Nahkla seems to make a flavor when enough people want it, from other brands...they are #1 after all, sometimes they act like it. Now here's the jacked up thing to think about...if you had that opinion, would you potentially release a bad flavor to try and diminish the prominence of your competitors? That is, I release a terrible Double Apple just to try an convince people that Double Apple isn't that good. If they try mine first...will they be less likely to try Nakhla's? Even if they do, will they be less likely to like it? Can I hurt Nahkla by making a crappy Double Apple flavor? Could crummy flavors be by design in some cases? I'll leave this last point to lay around for you to ponder.

I don't think a mediocre DA would hurt Nakhla DA in the long run. If i examine my own purchases though, i do tend to try flavours from brand Y if i had a good experience with the same flavour from brand X but i'll still try other flavours from brand Y if the first one was decent.

Never seen Tangiers in Euro stores by the way, i should order some soon. It seems a lot of people here think highly of it.

[Majid]

I agree. This is not going to be a controversial statement here, but I find Tangiers to be the brand with most "great" flavors. To bad I can only get 1/3 of them to acclimate properly. After that I'd put Nakhla, some of it's flavors aren't all that, but most of them are great. I have yet to find a single flavor from Starbuzz or Fantasia that I feel justifies the price, and that keeps me from trying out the flavors I have yet to try. AF has a handful of flavors I'm fond of, and Layalina is hit and miss. As a result my days of shisha adventureism is long gone, I'm going to stick to a handful of Nakhla, Tangiers and AF.

Did notice the prices on some tobacco is crazy. It'd cost maybe 3 dollars a smoke including coals. For that price it should be a decent flavour that lasts an hour minimum. I've completely stopped buying a few brands: Habibi, King moassel, 80% al waha, Original bahraini Molasses and a few more. Just not good enough. I wonder who buys this stuff consistently anyway.

I'm feeling the same way. Now with Tangeirs they have great flavors but I have to stick with Lucid, Nakhla is great but a bit mild in flavor. AF is pretty good but having consistency problems. The others that smell nice but smoke bad will either burn out within 15m or give you a scratchy throat. It's all recycled Al Waha for the most part, with nicer labels on it.
I've been getting bored but have been sticking to nakhla bc I can smoke it for hours and not feel sick in any way.

True, maybe i'm smoking too often these days and just don't enjoy it as much as i would have normally.
If it doesn't burn, flavour kicks after 15/20 mins. When i'm in Turkey on vacation i can at least get tobacco at a price that's warrants experimenting, here that's too costly.

I love AF. I smoked their orange recently and I though it was great. I haven't had too much Starbuzz, because of the price, but I got their sour apple and it easily made my top 5. The price hurts though. But I don't know. AF is great I haven't had too many complaints but I don't really go out on the limb either..

It's all in the eye of the beholder. My favorite two flavors still are probably Al Waha Watermelon and Guava. Smoked some Fusion raspberry the other night and I thought it tasted like almond (I won't say it was "bad" but it sucked!), meanwhile my smoking buddy said it was the greatest he had yet!

Flavor is all in the eye of the beholder, or the tongue in one's mouth or something cute like that.

Had al waha watermelon the other day, smoked ok and tasted more like a dull melon rind to me. I should still have half a 50 gram, i'll pop that in later with some honey and glycerine.

You tried al waha that was your problem...

Could be, lemon-mint was great, bought some more after the first 50g. I have the same qualm with about 8 other brands though.

Tangiers is the only brand that is completely consistent for me. Every flavor I have tried tastes exactly like the real world counterpart. Every package is the same quality. The only hiccup is that some people (a lot of people it seems) can't get the acclimation right. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

That's great. I don't even expect it to be super life like flavour but decently balanced, more than cardboard with honey and it should last.

Well everyone's pallet is different. I find every flavor from nakhla to be awesome except for 5 or 6 of them. But in terms of brands that are worthy to me, Tang (only a couple flavors cause most of the others i've tried won't acclimate), Nak, and Fusion.

Tang for strong flavor smoke and duration, big buzz, and different flavors no one else produces.

Nak for ease of use, big buzz, and strong long lasting flavors. (big smoke if you know how to pack it and add a lil glyc)

and lastly Fusion is my "new aged" shisha i smoke, it is the only brand of the new aged brands, that i find to last long, have great flavor, and stay very consistent. I like to keep it around for friends and family who don't like a big buzz and enjoy a more candy-ish taste.

Other than these 3 brands, I agree, most brands have a couple hits and the rest suck, in my experience at least, the only thing is that many may disagree because we all taste things differently.

Nakhla is still my #1 despite some really bad flavours, i still have coconut from 6 months ago. Strawberry is sitting there longer and longer too.

my wife LOVES tangiers coco. i personally dont see anything special about it. theres other flavors that we each love and hate and sometimes ill love a flavor and shell hate it and vice versa.

Yep, not everybody needs to like the same stuff as long as there's a base quality to it.

to me more than 60% of starbuzz is great. Fumari is hit or miss, but personally i do not like nakhla and af as well for now since their recent batches smells weird.

Should try it, it's costly though.

I've personally spent on average $200/month trying new tobaccos.... and I can definitely say that I only really love a small subset of what I've tried. Maybe 3 or 4 SB flavors, a few Nakhla, a few Fusion, a few AF, a couple Fantasia, etc. I've come nowhere near trying everything, but from my experience most shisha is crappy. I've started just re-ordering my favorites because it's so hit or miss trying something new.

Ouch, i'm 25 now and i can afford to spend a little thank god, but i started smoking hookah at 18 and it used to break my heart to spend 5 euros on 50 grams of shit flavoured sisha. A real kick in the nuts.

[mattarios2]

If I may, I think Majid, there are some paradigms that most hookah tobacco companies operate on (Although I don't) that validates what your saying. Lets start at the beginning, Nakhla invented Two Apple (I was informed recently that they call it 2 apple, Double Apple is a registered trademark of Starbuzz). They have a number of flavors, besides double apple of course, but now Zarqa (Al Waha) comes along and says. Dump Nakhla, buy Al Waha instead. "Do you have Two Apples Flavor?", the shopkeeper replies. Al Waha says "No, we don't. Nakhla double apple is the best flavor of its kind on the market, it would be a disservice to knock it off." So the Shopkeeper says He'll think about it but keeps selling Nakhla, since Two Apple is one of the best selling flavors. Alternate reality "Yes, we have two apples and it is better than Nakhlas." Now he stands a chance of getting his foot in the door.

Each company came to believe that to be successful in stealing business from other competitors, they needed to have all the same flavors the other companies did. In this way, they will make a second-hand crummy knock off just to say they have it and claim that its the best. So, the majority of all flavors are only there to remain competitive versus other companies. They are mediocre, because they don't have any passion to make a good flavor, only to sell more tobacco. A line with 20 flavors will sell roughly half as much as a line with 40 flavors. More flavors, good or bad, more sales, because you have to sell all the flavors as part of your agreements.

As such, here's a list of flavors that Tangiers was the first on the market with, and a list of flavors I made because other companies were making them. Some flavors are just obvious, like apple, for instance. Nothing interesting, just it makes sense to have an apple.

Lemon Blossom-(Lemon Rose)-Knocked off by at least one company
Pineapple-I can't remember in Al Waha came up with it first or I did. I think I did. This flavor dates back to 2003 for me.
Melon Blend-Its a honeydew flavor, more or less. I was the first to make a honeydew melon, but Nakhla had already come out with melon, which was cantaloupe.
Orange Soda-Al Waha came out with an orange flavor first, its OK.
Green Apple-One of the holy grails of hookah flavors was eskanderani apple, for a long time. Mine came later.
Pink Grapefruit-Mine dates back to 2004. Nobody even thought about it until recently when I released a new Pink Grapefruit (which is a lot better than my old one)
Lemon-Lime-Tangiers first.
Watermelon-Tangiers first.
Peach-Al Waha first, although it was terrible.
Blueberry-Tangiers first.
Kashmir Apple-Tangiers was the first to release Kashmir...now you see "cardamom" flavors everywhere which are supposed to be rip-offs of it.
Liquorice-Anise flavors were known first, but Tangiers was the first to make a Black Licorice root flavor. Now they are more common.
Cocoa-Tangiers first for a chocolate flavor. Now they're being ripped off left and right.
Grape-Others came first
Kashmir Peach, Kashmir Cherry-See Kashmir Apple
Cinnamon (Although mine is kinda weak)-Tangiers first.
Butterscotch (we call it vanilla)-Tangiers first
Pear-Tangiers first. Other companies have made prickly pear flavors...but I don;t remember seeing a pear flavor specifically.
Raspberry-Tangiers first
Lime/Margarita-Tangiers first.
Blue Gum Ball-My second blueberry flavor...before anybody had even released one. Several rip-offs/improvements are out there.
Passionfruit-Tangiers first.
Guava-Al Waha first.
Red Tea-Inspired by an Arabic import. Mine is substantially different...and not what I wanted...but still great.
Pineapple Orange Pear (Tropical Revenge)-Others came first. I was the first to add pear, though...
Horchata-Tangiers first
Clove-Tangiers first
Cranberry-Mine's different, but others came first.
Brambleberry-I was inspired by other blackberry flavors, so others first, Al Amir's being fantastically popular.
Schnozzberry-Inspired by Al Waha Five Star
Spearmint-Others first...Al Waha I think.
Kiwi-Others first, although my spin is a little different.
Nectarine-Others first
Peach Iced Tea-Tangiers first...has anybody ripped off? I don't think so.
Lemon-I wasn't first.
Mimon-There were several very popular lemon-mints, so I dipped my oar in the water.
Maraschino Cherry-Obviously I wasn't the first cherry. i like to think its the best, though.
Grapefruit-Tangiers first.
Chocolate Mint-Such a rip offf on my part...although I was the first with a chocolate flavor...so am I entitled?
Tropical Punch-I got the idea from a customer who wanted something like Al Waha's "California Dream". I modified it significantly.

So, this all being said, did X know Tangiers made a blueberry flavor when they made it? I don't know. It would be a little prideful to say they did. When I first started making bowls, they were all short, brown and made of low-fire clay. Now, theres a number of bowls all over the place, but their clay is white, or appears white, they come in colors other than brown and dark amber. Some are being made of alternate materials. Many are being made "tall". I believe, right or wrong, if I hadn't made Tangiers bowls, they'd still be all brown, short and without phunnels on. I see more ripoffs of the phunnel than I know what to do with. Like One company decided to adapt the phunnel with their "own design", which was a third prototype for me, which I rejected (It has no hole on top of the phunnel, the holes are smaller and on the side of the phunnel). Except mine had eight holes on the side of the phunnel. So, in terms of bowls, I know theres a lot of ripping off going on. As far as flavors, I think its reasonable to assume some cross-ripping is going on, bit I think its a good thing. It raises the bar. The question is, that you have raised, what are the quality of those flavors? Generally pretty poor, but it depends. Some of the rip offs are better than the originals. Cinnamon, for instance, any rip-off of my cinnamon is superior to it. The problem is some people are dishonest and say "Oh, I thought of this all on my own." Like the phunnel-like bowl with holes on the side. Come-on. Props to those who gave me a good idea. If you're just ripping somebody off, say so. Why is it a crime to say "Other people have good ideas, too." Why is it some of these tobacco companies have to insist they invented everything? What do you think the quality of those "inventions" are? Just like you said, the majority of the market is mediocre at best. Thats why we have Hookah Forums, so we find out who has the best lemon flavor.

What about Mango? I made a mango, but never released it for various reasons. Will the world come to an end if I don't have a mango? Of course not. I will get to it, in my own time. It will be right by my standards, I'm not going to release one until I think its right. That being said, Root Beer and Cinnamon were really good when I first tried them. There was no standard, no bar, so what I thought was the best possible was going to be bested by others and I tip my hat to them. I will come back around and get new ones, just in my time.

The other companies seem to have the attitude that they have to release a flavor when somebody else has one. Al Fakher and Starbuzz being notable exceptions. They do their own thing when they want to. Nahkla seems to make a flavor when enough people want it, from other brands...they are #1 after all, sometimes they act like it. Now here's the jacked up thing to think about...if you had that opinion, would you potentially release a bad flavor to try and diminish the prominence of your competitors? That is, I release a terrible Double Apple just to try an convince people that Double Apple isn't that good. If they try mine first...will they be less likely to try Nakhla's? Even if they do, will they be less likely to like it? Can I hurt Nahkla by making a crappy Double Apple flavor? Could crummy flavors be by design in some cases? I'll leave this last point to lay around for you to ponder.

Was this helpful at all?

definitely helpful, good info, thanks ...

on a side note Eric, have you tried nakhlas cinnamon?

[ColibriDon]

...I don't want to quote all of Eric's post so I'll just comment...

Realizing that you could call Tangiers Vanilla, Butterscotch, makes me think that mine might actually be acclimated. I may have to try that out.

Back on Topic, that makes a lot of sense. If I were to start a tobacco company, I think it would be beneficial to all if I released products that I thought were great and not just to take away business from others. While I can understand the financial motivation in releasing sub-par flavors, I don't think it makes any sense. If I were to release a god-awful cranberry flavor and released it just to compete with Tangiers, wouldn't that horrible flavor just negatively impact my overall sales? People would try my horrible flavor, think it's horrible, and might never try my tobacco again. It seems like it would be in my best interest, as a tobacco company, to release only phenomenal flavors.

I just can't understand the point in releasing sub-par tobacco just to take away sales from others. I wouldn't release a DA flavor unless I KNEW it was just as good or better than Nakhla's.

Maybe I just wouldn't make a good businessman.

[ilikemyusername]

This is what i have concluded after going on a huge flavour trying binge. Even if i hadn't though, it was already how i felt. Most brands have a hand full of good flavours and the rest taste rancid, nothing like the flavour it is supposed to be. Bought a truckload of al waha 50 grams and only really liked lemon-mint and after nine. Mint, lemon and DA were decent. The rest was dissapointing, smoking grape right now and it tastes horrible. The same can be said for many nakhla flavours(what i've been smoking mostly througout the years). DA, sweet melon, mandarin, peach and a few more taste good, most others mediocre to bad. It's not heat management or packing either, i get the clouds, it doesn't taste burned. How do you guys feel about this matter? Is it just that i've been getting the wrong brands or a personal preference or do others agree?

sounds to me like youre in the same boat as me, its why there are some flavors i stick with and others i experiment with, also it sounds like you're ready for a break and i'm sorry for my runon sentence...alcohol...

Nakhla is great but a bit mild in flavor.

ever try the mint?

You tried al waha that was your problem...

AW orange cream is one of my top flavors, and after nine.

Fumari has been really good to me.

got a sample once, the clouds seemed a bit weak, maybe it was just the day.

my wife LOVES tangiers coco. i personally dont see anything special about it. theres other flavors that we each love and hate and sometimes ill love a flavor and shell hate it and vice versa.

thank god for having more than one pipe, my wife and i are the same way. now if i could just get her to pack her own...

to me more than 60% of starbuzz is great. Fumari is hit or miss, but personally i do not like nakhla and af as well for now since their recent batches smells weird.

-1

If I may, I think Majid, there are some paradigms that most hookah tobacco companies operate on (Although I don't) that validates what your saying. Lets start at the beginning, Nakhla invented Two Apple (I was informed recently that they call it 2 apple, Double Apple is a registered trademark of Starbuzz). They have a number of flavors, besides double apple of course, but now Zarqa (Al Waha) comes along and says. Dump Nakhla, buy Al Waha instead. "Do you have Two Apples Flavor?", the shopkeeper replies. Al Waha says "No, we don't. Nakhla double apple is the best flavor of its kind on the market, it would be a disservice to knock it off." So the Shopkeeper says He'll think about it but keeps selling Nakhla, since Two Apple is one of the best selling flavors. Alternate reality "Yes, we have two apples and it is better than Nakhlas." Now he stands a chance of getting his foot in the door.

Each company came to believe that to be successful in stealing business from other competitors, they needed to have all the same flavors the other companies did. In this way, they will make a second-hand crummy knock off just to say they have it and claim that its the best. So, the majority of all flavors are only there to remain competitive versus other companies. They are mediocre, because they don't have any passion to make a good flavor, only to sell more tobacco. A line with 20 flavors will sell roughly half as much as a line with 40 flavors. More flavors, good or bad, more sales, because you have to sell all the flavors as part of your agreements.

As such, here's a list of flavors that Tangiers was the first on the market with, and a list of flavors I made because other companies were making them. Some flavors are just obvious, like apple, for instance. Nothing interesting, just it makes sense to have an apple.

Lemon Blossom-(Lemon Rose)-Knocked off by at least one company
Pineapple-I can't remember in Al Waha came up with it first or I did. I think I did. This flavor dates back to 2003 for me.
Melon Blend-Its a honeydew flavor, more or less. I was the first to make a honeydew melon, but Nakhla had already come out with melon, which was cantaloupe.
Orange Soda-Al Waha came out with an orange flavor first, its OK.
Green Apple-One of the holy grails of hookah flavors was eskanderani apple, for a long time. Mine came later.
Pink Grapefruit-Mine dates back to 2004. Nobody even thought about it until recently when I released a new Pink Grapefruit (which is a lot better than my old one)
Lemon-Lime-Tangiers first.
Watermelon-Tangiers first.
Peach-Al Waha first, although it was terrible.
Blueberry-Tangiers first.
Kashmir Apple-Tangiers was the first to release Kashmir...now you see "cardamom" flavors everywhere which are supposed to be rip-offs of it.
Liquorice-Anise flavors were known first, but Tangiers was the first to make a Black Licorice root flavor. Now they are more common.
Cocoa-Tangiers first for a chocolate flavor. Now they're being ripped off left and right.
Grape-Others came first
Kashmir Peach, Kashmir Cherry-See Kashmir Apple
Cinnamon (Although mine is kinda weak)-Tangiers first.
Butterscotch (we call it vanilla)-Tangiers first
Pear-Tangiers first. Other companies have made prickly pear flavors...but I don;t remember seeing a pear flavor specifically.
Raspberry-Tangiers first
Lime/Margarita-Tangiers first.
Blue Gum Ball-My second blueberry flavor...before anybody had even released one. Several rip-offs/improvements are out there.
Passionfruit-Tangiers first.
Guava-Al Waha first.
Red Tea-Inspired by an Arabic import. Mine is substantially different...and not what I wanted...but still great.
Pineapple Orange Pear (Tropical Revenge)-Others came first. I was the first to add pear, though...
Horchata-Tangiers first
Clove-Tangiers first
Cranberry-Mine's different, but others came first.
Brambleberry-I was inspired by other blackberry flavors, so others first, Al Amir's being fantastically popular.
Schnozzberry-Inspired by Al Waha Five Star
Spearmint-Others first...Al Waha I think.
Kiwi-Others first, although my spin is a little different.
Nectarine-Others first
Peach Iced Tea-Tangiers first...has anybody ripped off? I don't think so.
Lemon-I wasn't first.
Mimon-There were several very popular lemon-mints, so I dipped my oar in the water.
Maraschino Cherry-Obviously I wasn't the first cherry. i like to think its the best, though.
Grapefruit-Tangiers first.
Chocolate Mint-Such a rip offf on my part...although I was the first with a chocolate flavor...so am I entitled?
Tropical Punch-I got the idea from a customer who wanted something like Al Waha's "California Dream". I modified it significantly.

So, this all being said, did X know Tangiers made a blueberry flavor when they made it? I don't know. It would be a little prideful to say they did. When I first started making bowls, they were all short, brown and made of low-fire clay. Now, theres a number of bowls all over the place, but their clay is white, or appears white, they come in colors other than brown and dark amber. Some are being made of alternate materials. Many are being made "tall". I believe, right or wrong, if I hadn't made Tangiers bowls, they'd still be all brown, short and without phunnels on. I see more ripoffs of the phunnel than I know what to do with. Like One company decided to adapt the phunnel with their "own design", which was a third prototype for me, which I rejected (It has no hole on top of the phunnel, the holes are smaller and on the side of the phunnel). Except mine had eight holes on the side of the phunnel. So, in terms of bowls, I know theres a lot of ripping off going on. As far as flavors, I think its reasonable to assume some cross-ripping is going on, bit I think its a good thing. It raises the bar. The question is, that you have raised, what are the quality of those flavors? Generally pretty poor, but it depends. Some of the rip offs are better than the originals. Cinnamon, for instance, any rip-off of my cinnamon is superior to it. The problem is some people are dishonest and say "Oh, I thought of this all on my own." Like the phunnel-like bowl with holes on the side. Come-on. Props to those who gave me a good idea. If you're just ripping somebody off, say so. Why is it a crime to say "Other people have good ideas, too." Why is it some of these tobacco companies have to insist they invented everything? What do you think the quality of those "inventions" are? Just like you said, the majority of the market is mediocre at best. Thats why we have Hookah Forums, so we find out who has the best lemon flavor.

What about Mango? I made a mango, but never released it for various reasons. Will the world come to an end if I don't have a mango? Of course not. I will get to it, in my own time. It will be right by my standards, I'm not going to release one until I think its right. That being said, Root Beer and Cinnamon were really good when I first tried them. There was no standard, no bar, so what I thought was the best possible was going to be bested by others and I tip my hat to them. I will come back around and get new ones, just in my time.

The other companies seem to have the attitude that they have to release a flavor when somebody else has one. Now here's the jacked up thing to think about...if you had that opinion, would you potentially release a bad flavor to try and diminish the prominence of your competitors? That is, I release a terrible Double Apple just to try an convince people that Double Apple isn't that good. If they try mine first...will they be less likely to try Nakhla's? Even if they do, will they be less likely to like it? Can I hurt Nahkla by making a crappy Double Apple flavor? Could crummy flavors be by design in some cases? I'll leave this last point to lay around for you to ponder.

Was this helpful at all?

good lord man.

[Rani]

After reading all posts, etc..... I think it all boils down to personal taste and use. For example, many people think Starbuzz doesn't last long enough but what if you never smoke more than 20 minutes? You don't need something that lasts two hours if you never smoke more than 20 minutes. Everyone's taste buds and sense of smell are different - and your sense of smell greatly influences your taste. So to me it's simply that each company likely makes some flavors that are right in line with your personal taste and use. So in your perception that brand has the best version of that particular flavor. I think the simple answer is let's say you (as I did not long ago) want a cherry flavor you personally find perfect. So you try cherry in several brands based on recommendations and then you stick with the one you like. In the case of cherry Tangiers Marschino Cherry is the only one I think I'll ever buy again because it suits my personal taste buds. Much as I love Orange Soda, in orange I prefer Al Waha Orange Creme. In cocoa Tangiers wins every time. Fusion makes the perfect Honeyberry for my personal taste. Whatever flavor you're looking for, find the one brand that makes your best version and go from there.

'Rani

[redjako]

Seems like in many business', the 80/20 rule even applies for hookah products (meaning 20% of sales are basically 80% of the companies revenue).

You have varied product line just for shits and giggles.

[Sonthert]

...I don't want to quote all of Eric's post so I'll just comment...

Realizing that you could call Tangiers Vanilla, Butterscotch, makes me think that mine might actually be acclimated. I may have to try that out.

Back on Topic, that makes a lot of sense. If I were to start a tobacco company, I think it would be beneficial to all if I released products that I thought were great and not just to take away business from others. While I can understand the financial motivation in releasing sub-par flavors, I don't think it makes any sense. If I were to release a god-awful cranberry flavor and released it just to compete with Tangiers, wouldn't that horrible flavor just negatively impact my overall sales? People would try my horrible flavor, think it's horrible, and might never try my tobacco again. It seems like it would be in my best interest, as a tobacco company, to release only phenomenal flavors.

I just can't understand the point in releasing sub-par tobacco just to take away sales from others. I wouldn't release a DA flavor unless I KNEW it was just as good or better than Nakhla's.

Maybe I just wouldn't make a good businessman.

I agree, I;m doing alright, better each day. What you are experiencing is called "integrity". Its in the noble class of emotions. When the day comes when integrity means your a bad businessman, I'll take up fishing instead.

What's the point of releasing sub-par tobacco? Your question implies the people buying the tobacco have perfect knowledge of the product when the opposite is true. If I sell 40 flavors, I get a customer to buy my line, I sell 40Kg of tobacco...they buy them all, not just a few...if they do "cherry pick" I charge them more. They don't know or care that I only have 6 good flavors. To demonstrate this point, the most ubiquitous of "crummy" universal flavors are all extremely cheap for the flavoring. On the other hand, if I only sell 20 flavors, being careful and only making 20 good flavors rather than 34 crummy and 6 good ones, I get rewarded by only selling 20 Kg. They won't order twice as much to total 40Kg just because I sell half as many.

Mattarias:I have not tried Nakhla cinnamon. High bar to top?

[erufiku]

Also, most casual hookah smokers that I've met don't even realize that there are many different tobacco brands, and each one has their own version of a specific flavor. If they get a bad flavor once they'll usually assume that it's a shitty flavor and won't order it again.

Back on topic though, I agree with the op... the vast majority of tobacco being sold is really crappy. Nakhla's mostly good, AF still has some good flavors, and Tangiers... well, it's Tangiers I remember when I just got my first hookah I wanted to try so many different brands and flavors, but after about 25 tubs I just gave up and started sticking with the three brands I've mentioned.

[mattarios2]

...I don't want to quote all of Eric's post so I'll just comment...

Realizing that you could call Tangiers Vanilla, Butterscotch, makes me think that mine might actually be acclimated. I may have to try that out.

Back on Topic, that makes a lot of sense. If I were to start a tobacco company, I think it would be beneficial to all if I released products that I thought were great and not just to take away business from others. While I can understand the financial motivation in releasing sub-par flavors, I don't think it makes any sense. If I were to release a god-awful cranberry flavor and released it just to compete with Tangiers, wouldn't that horrible flavor just negatively impact my overall sales? People would try my horrible flavor, think it's horrible, and might never try my tobacco again. It seems like it would be in my best interest, as a tobacco company, to release only phenomenal flavors.

I just can't understand the point in releasing sub-par tobacco just to take away sales from others. I wouldn't release a DA flavor unless I KNEW it was just as good or better than Nakhla's.

Maybe I just wouldn't make a good businessman.

I agree, I;m doing alright, better each day. What you are experiencing is called "integrity". Its in the noble class of emotions. When the day comes when integrity means your a bad businessman, I'll take up fishing instead.

What's the point of releasing sub-par tobacco? Your question implies the people buying the tobacco have perfect knowledge of the product when the opposite is true. If I sell 40 flavors, I get a customer to buy my line, I sell 40Kg of tobacco...they buy them all, not just a few...if they do "cherry pick" I charge them more. They don't know or care that I only have 6 good flavors. To demonstrate this point, the most ubiquitous of "crummy" universal flavors are all extremely cheap for the flavoring. On the other hand, if I only sell 20 flavors, being careful and only making 20 good flavors rather than 34 crummy and 6 good ones, I get rewarded by only selling 20 Kg. They won't order twice as much to total 40Kg just because I sell half as many.

Mattarias:I have not tried Nakhla cinnamon. High bar to top?

It is the best cinnamon ever, it competes for one of my top fav flavors along with a few other nak flavors, and k-peach of course.

try it out.

[Sonthert]

Hmm. I might just do that.