Religion And Relationships

[Stuie]

As a Catholic you might have to give up the church wedding. My best friend is Catholic and when he got married, his wife had to convert. She did do it but they aren't very devout, but that was the only way the priest would allow them to be married in the church. Just food for thought.

[Damethe]

As a Catholic you might have to give up the church wedding. My best friend is Catholic and when he got married, his wife had to convert. She did do it but they aren't very devout, but that was the only way the priest would allow them to be married in the church. Just food for thought.

Yeah, I am thinking that if the priest allows us to get married in the church we might do it. but if my boyfriend is going to have to convert then i think i am going to have to settle for not being married in a church.

[judgeposer]

As a Catholic you might have to give up the church wedding. My best friend is Catholic and when he got married, his wife had to convert. She did do it but they aren't very devout, but that was the only way the priest would allow them to be married in the church. Just food for thought.

Yeah, I am thinking that if the priest allows us to get married in the church we might do it. but if my boyfriend is going to have to convert then i think i am going to have to settle for not being married in a church.

There is no Church teaching or law that says you have to marry a Catholic, nor one saying that if you don't, that you cannot get married in a church. On the ground, you might experience some resistance, but that depends on the priest/pastor. Principally, though, it isn't a problem - see my first post to you.

The non-Catholic party does not have to convert either.

The Church does require that a marrying Catholic (or Catholics) celebrate the Sacrament of Marriage, which can only be done in a proper church, by a cleric (a priest or deacon). So, to say that you might have to settle for not being married in a church seems the beginning of something dangerous - namely making concessions about something you have deeply-held beliefs.

[newjacksm]

If my brother didnt get married in an orthodox church and only married in a catholic church he would of been excommunicated from the church you have to check on how extreme the church will go. In orthodox you must get married in a the church whether it means the person converting or not. Usually they will accept all forms of Christianity. But people who practice Islam/Judism etc...etc... they must convert.

Anyways in short if this is a new boyfriend just have fun put the religion aside when it starts to get serious you both will have to comprise each other about religion and look into these things together.

[Barnaby]

I hate to buck the trend. But wouldn't someone you truly love, and by that I mean, someone who is your soulmate. Somone who is your other half. Wouldn't they have the same beliefs, views, etc on major things like this?

One could argue that someone could still be your other half, but were exposed to certain life events that pushed them that way, and in the same situation, you would've gone that route too... But, would you have?

My wife and I see everything eye to eye. Our only differences are minute, and those are far and few inbetween. I did not go looking for someone I could change, or get along with, or settle with. I needed someone to be with me EVERY step of the way. Now I know that not everyone can find what I have found, but I have to throw it out there for being the devil's advocate.

[Sherv]

I'm an atheist (though born shiite muslim) and I dated a girl who came from a suni muslim family. I feel faith is completely personal and gave her the liberty to do whatever she wanted with her own views; about 20 months into the relationship she became more and more interested in pursuing the religion and began going to a mosque, and a few weeks later she broke up with me over the phone.

...

I'm not quite sure what the point of my post was (yeah, I'm still bitter)

[Sonthert]

I'll side with the traditional faiths on this one. What if your boyfriend becomes even more devout as an atheist...what if he gets as obnoxious as say...me? Hammering you about how religion is a sham and a superstition and hounds you Sunday after Sunday about not going to church? What if he refuses to allow you to teach potential children about your faith in Jesus Christ? People aren't static, they are dynamic. They often change, one person will become more or less inclined to believe something and change back again, Read the thread on people's faith and how many people talked about how their relationship with Jesus Christ changed over time. Its a losing battle, ultimately. When people say "We have so much in common."...religious belief and emphasis should be in that "so much in common"...rather than liking Rage Against the Machine and Street Fighter 2. If you don't share religious belief/emphasis with the other person, you have very little ultimately in common. Atheists minds don't work the same way, frequently, as other people's minds do. I don't see the same things when I look at a church, a flower, a wedding ceremony, a funeral, a person close to death, a thunderstorm, a cockroach, or an apple pie as you do, most likely. Perhaps you will see your boyfriend doesn't either. When you try to understand each other outside of sex and cuddling, you'll see that very little is in common, I would wager. I think circumcision is an abomination, for instance, most atheists do too. How do you decide about your new baby boy? Circumcise him halfway?

If both persons aren't religious, its no big deal what your differing faiths are. I agree with Jason, if you are a Catholic you have to raise a Catholic Child. There is no exception, no loophole. It is an affront to your faith to do otherwise. It is unfair of you to insist or wheedle or try to convince your husband to do that, however...you are violating his faith. A true atheist would never allow their child to be corrupted by religious superstition...but perhaps Mr. Damethe is a liberal atheist, on the other hand...its hard to tell. A child is born as an atheist...it requires religious input to teach them religion...to separate the child from religious interaction, like funerals or Christmas and hide your faith is difficult and unfair to your cherished beliefs.

[Barnaby]

I'll side with the traditional faiths on this one. What if your boyfriend becomes even more devout as an atheist...what if he gets as obnoxious as say...me? Hammering you about how religion is a sham and a superstition and hounds you Sunday after Sunday about not going to church? What if he refuses to allow you to teach potential children about your faith in Jesus Christ? People aren't static, they are dynamic. They often change, one person will become more or less inclined to believe something and change back again, Read the thread on people's faith and how many people talked about how their relationship with Jesus Christ changed over time. Its a losing battle, ultimately. When people say "We have so much in common."...religious belief and emphasis should be in that "so much in common"...rather than liking Rage Against the Machine and Street Fighter 2. If you don't share religious belief/emphasis with the other person, you have very little ultimately in common. Atheists minds don't work the same way, frequently, as other people's minds do. I don't see the same things when I look at a church, a flower, a wedding ceremony, a funeral, a person close to death, a thunderstorm, a cockroach, or an apple pie as you do, most likely. Perhaps you will see your boyfriend doesn't either. When you try to understand each other outside of sex and cuddling, you'll see that very little is in common, I would wager. I think circumcision is an abomination, for instance, most atheists do too. How do you decide about your new baby boy? Circumcise him halfway?

If both persons aren't religious, its no big deal what your differing faiths are. I agree with Jason, if you are a Catholic you have to raise a Catholic Child. There is no exception, no loophole. It is an affront to your faith to do otherwise. It is unfair of you to insist or wheedle or try to convince your husband to do that, however...you are violating his faith. A true atheist would never allow their child to be corrupted by religious superstition...but perhaps Mr. Damethe is a liberal atheist, on the other hand...its hard to tell. A child is born as an atheist...it requires religious input to teach them religion...to separate the child from religious interaction, like funerals or Christmas and hide your faith is difficult and unfair to your cherished beliefs.

Damn skippy. The concept of religion, and believing in it are BIG choices. To be able to believe in it at all, requires a very different mindset from someone that doesn't. It influences EVERY aspect of your life. How can you expect to share your life with somone, when you both view it completely differently. They say opposites attract, but I say bullshit to that. If your very core of how you percieive this life is different from your partner, how are you going to live with each other, and get along?

[Sherv]

A true atheist would never allow their child to be corrupted by religious superstition

Hmm, I don't really agree with that, although I suppose it depends what you mean by "true atheist". I'm a scientist and found my draw to atheism through logic and observation of the world around me. Were I to have kids I wouldn't influence them one way or the other regarding their beliefs, but rather do what my father did with me: let them discover their own (lack of) spirituality on their own. While I have very strong personal feelings regarding religion, I still feel it's a very personal thing and thus I have no right telling anyone what to believe and what not to follow.

[Sherwood]

A true atheist would never allow their child to be corrupted by religious superstition

Hmm, I don't really agree with that, although I suppose it depends what you mean by "true atheist". I'm a scientist and found my draw to atheism through logic and observation of the world around me. Were I to have kids I wouldn't influence them one way or the other regarding their beliefs, but rather do what my father did with me: let them discover their own (lack of) spirituality on their own. While I have very strong personal feelings regarding religion, I still feel it's a very personal thing and thus I have no right telling anyone what to believe and what not to follow.

I wonder if you would feel differently when it was your responsibility to tell someone what to believe and what not to follow -- i.e. raise them. I agree that there is a point where you need to give a child independence, but that point is not when they're born. Part of a parent's duties are to try to make their kids into at least the outline of a beneficial member of society. It surprises me that more people don't feel like Eric does here -- there's no way in hell he's letting his kid be kowtowed by religion. Isn't their some contract for parents to impart some of their beliefs to their children? I fully intend to -- it's the way I process the world around me, and the underlying harmony to all of it. That falls somewhere between "learn how to throw a football" and "learn how to tell someone bad news" on my childrearin' to-do's.

[Sherv]

A true atheist would never allow their child to be corrupted by religious superstition

Hmm, I don't really agree with that, although I suppose it depends what you mean by "true atheist". I'm a scientist and found my draw to atheism through logic and observation of the world around me. Were I to have kids I wouldn't influence them one way or the other regarding their beliefs, but rather do what my father did with me: let them discover their own (lack of) spirituality on their own. While I have very strong personal feelings regarding religion, I still feel it's a very personal thing and thus I have no right telling anyone what to believe and what not to follow.

I wonder if you would feel differently when it was your responsibility to tell someone what to believe and what not to follow -- i.e. raise them. I agree that there is a point where you need to give a child independence, but that point is not when they're born. Part of a parent's duties are to try to make their kids into at least the outline of a beneficial member of society. It surprises me that more people don't feel like Eric does here -- there's no way in hell he's letting his kid be kowtowed by religion. Isn't their some contract for parents to impart some of their beliefs to their children? I fully intend to -- it's the way I process the world around me, and the underlying harmony to all of it. That falls somewhere between "learn how to throw a football" and "learn how to tell someone bad news" on my childrearin' to-do's.

But I feel that dictating faith in god and belief in religious doctrine are NOT my responsibility as a parent. I believe that morality exists outside of religion and that a perfectly decent, compassionate, helpful, and constructive member of any given society can be formed without any religious input. Choice is the most important option you can give a child...I'm not vegetarian but if my child wants to explore that path then I will be supportive; likewise with religion: if my child feels the need to subscribe to a certain doctrine then so be it. I'll entertain discussion and debate but when it comes to faith there's no way of convincing one person one way or the other, that's the nature of faith!

[Sherwood]

But I feel that dictating faith in god and belief in religious doctrine are NOT my responsibility as a parent. I believe that morality exists outside of religion and that a perfectly decent, compassionate, helpful, and constructive member of any given society can be formed without any religious input. Choice is the most important option you can give a child...I'm not vegetarian but if my child wants to explore that path then I will be supportive; likewise with religion: if my child feels the need to subscribe to a certain doctrine then so be it. I'll entertain discussion and debate but when it comes to faith there's no way of convincing one person one way or the other, that's the nature of faith!

Would you be as accepting of your child's vegetarianism if he was 6 and just wouldn't eat the chicken you cooked him? Possible, but unlikely. Children have beliefs before they are able to logically substantiate and defend them. I can discuss and debate with you, but your adolescent child won't be able to with any degree of aptitude. Therefore, if the question of religion comes up, and it invariably will, you'll have to either tell him what you believe (thereby tacitly endorsing it), lie to him, or not answer the question. Since there's no reason to lie, and since you seem to be an honest fellow, I'll assume that option is not available. Not answering the question would seem to allow them to make their own decisions, but it will also leave them somewhat confused. I wouldn't want my child attending Westboro Baptist Church with a friend, for instance, but churches like that try hard to get their members to bring their friends.

By the very action of raising children, we necessarily have to impart some beliefs on them. When those children become adults we can, and should, encourage them to pursue their own understanding -- on this we agree totally. I just think it's impractical to suggest that an 8-year-old child is capable of logical appraisal of religious beliefs, any more than they are capable of effectively giving themselves an insulin shot Nonetheless, many people reference experiences they had as small children as being instrumental to their faith, or their lack of faith. For a certain period of time, they need someone who loves them and cares about them to do these things for them.

[Sherwood]

I believe that morality exists outside of religion and that a perfectly decent, compassionate, helpful, and constructive member of any given society can be formed without any religious input.

This is an excellent example of a point Eric makes frequently -- atheists think differently than theists. While I completely agree with you on your point, it is not a generally held belief.

Imparting this to your child, then, is a tacit endorsement of atheism. It's your right and your responsibility to raise your child with the belief that they don't need God to make them a good person -- but that belief may be at odds with those around them.

[Sherv]

Ahhhhh, now I see what you mean! Gotcha, good points

[Barnaby]

Personally, in regards to raising children with religious beliefs, sure you will instill your beliefs to an extent, but I think actively raising them into a religion, equates to brainwashing. If you tell a person something their whole life, they will believe it to be true. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. They are not given a choice.

Now obviously if you are an active member of your faith, then, its going to be hard to not do this. But you probably wouldn't see anything wrong with this anyway. Since I do not believe in organized religions, I'm obviously not going to install a religion onto my kids. But what I will do, is tell them that there is such a thing as religion, and that some people choice to believe in them, and some don't. I'll tell them that I cannot completely prove one way or another that religions are true or not, and that it is one of the things in life they will need to find out for themselves. I will support them which ever way they chose. This is the most I can do for them, and try to be as non biased as possible. Can I completely not bias them? Of course not. But I can try my best not to.

[judgeposer]

Personally, in regards to raising children with religious beliefs, sure you will instill your beliefs to an extent, but I think actively raising them into a religion, equates to brainwashing. If you tell a person something their whole life, they will believe it to be true. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. They are not given a choice.

Now obviously if you are an active member of your faith, then, its going to be hard to not do this. But you probably wouldn't see anything wrong with this anyway. Since I do not believe in organized religions, I'm obviously not going to install a religion onto my kids. But what I will do, is tell them that there is such a thing as religion, and that some people choice to believe in them, and some don't. I'll tell them that I cannot completely prove one way or another that religions are true or not, and that it is one of the things in life they will need to find out for themselves. I will support them which ever way they chose. This is the most I can do for them, and try to be as non biased as possible. Can I completely not bias them? Of course not. But I can try my best not to.

I've heard this argument before, that religious instruction of children even equals child abuse. As a religious person, I think it's hogwash, but not because it denigrates my religious faith, but because it seems not to account for how we actually teach and instruct our children. We can all act (or say) as if we're going to supply our children with all of the available options and "let them decide," but that seems way too fanciful - we don't do with with respect to most things when raising or instructing a child. We instill biases one way or another, some biases are reasonable, some are not. In all events, we teach them what we know, what we find reasonable and appropriate, which obviously differs from household to household.

For the bit: "If you tell a person something their whole life, they will believe it to be true. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. They are not given a choice." I can't see this as being true at all. If it were, we'd never see conversions of atheists to religious believers, or religious belief to atheism, to give one example having to do with this thread. Sure, some people will choose not to exercise their independent thought or rational abilities as adults, but, in principle, they can. We might not choose to believe something in the same way we choose a diet soda over a regular soda, so, the word "choice," when talking about belief does not seem to provide any explanatory power. What we can say, however, is that we can find something unreasonable and cease to believe in it in the sense that we cease to accept that thing as true when it does not accord or appeal to our reasoning faculties: when we can't make sense of it. In any event, it doesn't at all seem consistent with life to say that because someone is taught something as true as a child, or even into adulthood, she will forever accept it as true.

[judgeposer]

Personally, in regards to raising children with religious beliefs, sure you will instill your beliefs to an extent, but I think actively raising them into a religion, equates to brainwashing. If you tell a person something their whole life, they will believe it to be true. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. They are not given a choice.

Now obviously if you are an active member of your faith, then, its going to be hard to not do this. But you probably wouldn't see anything wrong with this anyway. Since I do not believe in organized religions, I'm obviously not going to install a religion onto my kids. But what I will do, is tell them that there is such a thing as religion, and that some people choice to believe in them, and some don't. I'll tell them that I cannot completely prove one way or another that religions are true or not, and that it is one of the things in life they will need to find out for themselves. I will support them which ever way they chose. This is the most I can do for them, and try to be as non biased as possible. Can I completely not bias them? Of course not. But I can try my best not to.

I've heard this argument before, that religious instruction of children even equals child abuse. As a religious person, I think it's hogwash, but not because it denigrates my religious faith, but because it seems not to account for how we actually teach and instruct our children. We can all act (or say) as if we're going to supply our children with all of the available options and "let them decide," but that seems way too fanciful - we don't do with with respect to most things when raising or instructing a child. We instill biases one way or another, some biases are reasonable, some are not. In all events, we teach them what we know, what we find reasonable and appropriate, which obviously differs from household to household.

For the bit: "If you tell a person something their whole life, they will believe it to be true. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. They are not given a choice." I can't see this as being true at all. If it were, we'd never see conversions of atheists to religious believers, or religious belief to atheism, to give one example having to do with this thread. Sure, some people will choose not to exercise their independent thought or rational abilities as adults, but, in principle, they can. We might not choose to believe something in the same way we choose a diet soda over a regular soda, so, the word "choice," when talking about belief does not seem to provide any explanatory power. What we can say, however, is that we can find something unreasonable and cease to believe in it in the sense that we cease to accept that thing as true when it does not accord or appeal to our reasoning faculties: when we can't make sense of it. In any event, it doesn't at all seem consistent with life to say that because someone is taught something as true as a child, or even into adulthood, she will forever accept it as true.

Here's my edited post - I missed the edit window.

Personally, in regards to raising children with religious beliefs, sure you will instill your beliefs to an extent, but I think actively raising them into a religion, equates to brainwashing. If you tell a person something their whole life, they will believe it to be true. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. They are not given a choice.

Now obviously if you are an active member of your faith, then, its going to be hard to not do this. But you probably wouldn't see anything wrong with this anyway. Since I do not believe in organized religions, I'm obviously not going to install a religion onto my kids. But what I will do, is tell them that there is such a thing as religion, and that some people choice to believe in them, and some don't. I'll tell them that I cannot completely prove one way or another that religions are true or not, and that it is one of the things in life they will need to find out for themselves. I will support them which ever way they chose. This is the most I can do for them, and try to be as non biased as possible. Can I completely not bias them? Of course not. But I can try my best not to.

I've heard this argument before, that religious instruction of children even equals child abuse. I think it's a bad argument, but not because it denigrates my religious faith, but because it seems not to account for how we actually teach and instruct our children. We can all act (or say) as if we're going to supply our children with all of the available options and "let them decide," but that seems way too fanciful - we don't do that with with respect to most things when raising or instructing a child. We instill biases one way or another, some biases are reasonable, some are not. In all events, we teach them what we know, what we find reasonable and appropriate, which obviously differs from household to household. My argument is that since we don't leave it up to our children to decide most things, like say their own bedtime, what distinguishes those things from religious instruction - or a lack of religious instruction?

For the bit: "If you tell a person something their whole life, they will believe it to be true. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. They are not given a choice." I can't see this as being true at all. If it were, we'd never see conversions of atheists to religious believers, or religious belief to atheism, to give one example having to do with this thread. Sure, some people will choose not to exercise their independent thought or rational abilities as adults, but, in principle, they can. We might not choose to believe something in the same way we choose a diet soda over a regular soda, so, the word "choice," when talking about belief does not seem to provide any explanatory power. What we can say, however, is that we can find something unreasonable and cease to believe in it in the sense that we cease to accept that thing as true when it does not accord or appeal to our reasoning faculties: when we can't make sense of it. In any event, it doesn't at all seem consistent with life to say that because someone is taught something as true as a child, or even into adulthood, she will forever accept it as true.

[Sonthert]

I believe that honesty is the highest moral imperative. Is it OK to tell your children that the stork is responsible for bringing babies? Of course not. Its a superstition. I view god in the same light...just everybody forgot its a fanciful story. I certainly can't rectify the discrepancy between quantum theory and reality, but it is real, yet the answers elude us as a species. There are questions that defy explanations, but people are to apt to jump to conclusions and use sloppy reasoning to explain the leap in logic. For example, UFOs. As Isaac Asmiov, pointed out, why does everybody who claims to have seen a UFO tacitly assume that it has aliens in and is from another planet? This is the same line of reasoning that religion takes. In both cases, the proponents leap to an answer that is clearly outside the realm of science, and without any physical proof whatsoever is assumed to be true because of biased observations (AKA "faith"). Any attempt to dissuade the observer that there are logical explanations are impossible, especially if there are no other answers at hand or at least answers that cannot be ascertained from the information at hand. Why is it that people who leap to these conclusions always willing to take the shortest route? This is why most minds are trained to be religious continue this pattern throughout life. Allowing conclusions without any tangible direct proof to be accepted as true. If you wish to be intellectually fair, you would have to assume that you don't know that there is a god at all...there is no direct, tangible proof of god. We can't find his used garb at a thriftstore, we can't find his handprint on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. We don't see pictures of him in the newspaper, we can't meet him at a discotheque for a double martini or shake his hand...but people assume that god is indeed real...because they believe it. This manner is inconsistent with logic and intellectual achievement, in my opinion. The act of believing one thing to be true, despite a lack of evidence, biases the mind to alternatives, and can hide the truth we seek...or not seek. My children will be taught the proper way to intellectually reason things out, to not assume that things are true that have no evidence. This drives people to seek out knowledge, to figure out what is most likely true, although the truth may not be forthcoming.

I'm sure some of the religious people are booing and catcalling at this point, because you can't understand where my mind is. Thats OK. My mind is a slave to no paradigm, a captive of no perspective. I can predict the weather (not 100%, but pretty good), the economy, politics, world events, all sorts of things. Much better than most people, because my mind can accurately resolve complex systems of variables without bias. This bias I believe is imparted primarily by religion...it allows people to believe in what they want to be true, not what hard data indicates is true. In some cases, they may be the same. If people stopped wasting time believing things to be true and worked to make them true, I believe the world would be a better place. I want my children to want to make the world a better place, thats my opinion, and thats what my children will learn.


There is no unbiased way of transmitting information to children. They are much sharper than most people want to give them credit for. Children, for the most part, are incredibly perceptive and can smell deception from a mile away. That all fades when we teach them its OK to believe in things they want to be true, instead of believing in things that are real, like hard work and determination to make things that we want to come to pass.


Another point to think about...atheists are, by and large, a fairly skeptical group. It is very popular to believe that skepticism breeds atheism...but is that really true? Does atheism breed skepticism? If you see why the question is important, you'll see why children shouldn't be exposed to religion before they're 12 or 14 or so. If you don't see why that question is important, you have no idea why children shouldn't be taken to church and Sunday School. Thats why I say atheists and theists brains work differently.

Another demonstration of the difference between religious people and non-religious people's thinking...if you believe in god or other religious themes...how would your life be different if it was proved there was no god and you were absolutely convinced of the falsity of religion? If you say you can't be convinced in any way that there is no god, that just further goes to my point about children not being exposed to religion. You probably can come up with a few ways your life would be different. If it were proved to me, on the other hand, that there was a god, it would make no difference in my life. Thats why religion and children should be kept separate. Religion becomes, to many people, an intellectual dependency.

Edit: Sherv: If you wanted to answer a question, would you not find that starting without preconceived notions to be the surest avenue for success? Of course. You would add information, observation, experience, wisdom, training, insight and perhaps a smidge of intuition, as appropriate. If, from a very young age, you were trained to answer every question you didn't know the answer to as revolving around god "god Knows, god's plan, god is the reason, etc.) wouldn't that hobble your efforts? Some religions aren't this way at all, the Catholic Church has been very forthcoming since Vatican II to hold rationality in high regard, but it isn't true with all religions and few children don't have the ability to resolve the intricacies of such things from the world of adults. My father taught me from a very young age "If you can't back up what you're saying with some information or logic, you're full of shit." What is more uniquely human than the ability to go after the answers to questions? Whats the first signs of intellectual development in a child? The "why" stage. They want answers. If the answer to every humanly important question is god, they'll stop asking why...but its far more rewarding to train them to go out and get their own answers with your help.

Edit 2: I know its hard for you guys to see how my mind works...I love you all anyways.

[hookahthis]

good luck i lost the only girl i've ever loved to religion...

[Kapten Kanel]

Very impressive text Eric, you mentioned a lot of important points in there.
I believe in science, logic and reason and i strongly believe that religion has far more negative effects than positive.
When people base their decisions on old fairytales you know that something is wrong.
I am just stating my opinion, if anybody feels "hit" by this know that that was not the meaning of this post.

[Barnaby]

Once again Eric, you properly take what I was trying to say, and give it the words it needed to make a sounder point. I've often felt that religion has a tendancy to be a cop out in people's lives, and more so, it removes an individuals power. Its never someone's own hard work and determination that mattered, it was God's will that let them achieve whatever. Something bad happens, God must've meant it for a reason. Pray to God for guidance and strength, instead of finding that power inside yourself.

By removing yourself, and becoming God's pawn in his great dollhouse, what the fuck is the point of existence? I hear it alot that life without faith is empty, but really it seems to me it's even more so with it. If everything is God's will, and part of God's plan, where does free choice come in? If you chose or not to chose anything, its still all part of God's master plan. I do not like the idea of having no real control over my life, and my choices.

Back to the topic at hand though, sure there are those that are taught a certain thing their whole like, and chose to not accept it down the road. I did the same coming from a catholic uprearing. But the majority of people will not be able to make that choice. Go try and reteach yourself that orange is purple, and purple is orange if you can. I doubt you could, but why not? Those names are just random names that we chose to give to these colors. But your mind was taught to put these words to those colors, and everyone else in the same language did too. You would not be able to easily do this. Just as if you're taught you're whole life to believe in religion, and your family, your church community etc believes in the same, do you think it would be easy to stop believing?

[tinyj316]

My location: Left Field...

When people pray to God for strength and perseverance, strong will, etc... do any of you feel that they're trying to, for a lack of a better term, pump themselves up to get ready for whatever task is ahead of them? I've noticed people who pray for answers to questions tend to look in different places after they pray, and many times find the answer... Is this the will of God? to them it is... To most logical thinkers, they just hadn't looked there yet, and stumbled upon the answer they were looking for. Two different schools of thought, obviously, but the point is they got what they were looking for... What does it matter if the person believes it was the will of God or if it was just looking in a different source? Again, I classify myself as Agnostic... (for more of my back story look on page 1)

As for what Barnaby was talking for about free will... The best way that I can describe it is one of those choose your own ending books... the author (God) knows all the possible outcomes... the reader (You) have to pick and choose what you're going to do...That will ultimately decide where you end your life (not heaven or hell, that's a different thread, but where in terms of variables XYZHWOIDB, etc.) Remember, to the religious people, God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent... Time, to god, is not lateral, but it is in all dimensions...

I don't know if any of that made sense... if not, Eric, feel free to baleet it, or edit it to make me look like a russian crack whore that's selling fake designer purses and boots

[Kapten Kanel]

or edit it to make me look like a russian crack whore that's selling fake designer purses and boots

Oh man sooo sigged

[judgeposer]

Once again Eric, you properly take what I was trying to say, and give it the words it needed to make a sounder point. I've often felt that religion has a tendancy to be a cop out in people's lives, and more so, it removes an individuals power. Its never someone's own hard work and determination that mattered, it was God's will that let them achieve whatever. Something bad happens, God must've meant it for a reason. Pray to God for guidance and strength, instead of finding that power inside yourself.

What Eric did not say, and what I don't think is true, is that he has not based his non-belief on the behavior of believers or what he sees as their bad arguments. In other words, I don't think he has arrived at his atheism because those who believe can be hypocrites, or as a reaction to the bad arguments of believers. He is not saying, in other words, that he chooses not to believe because one too many believers for his tastes have committed adultery. Too, he is not saying that he won't believe because religious folk aren't logical. His non-belief remains a distinct conclusion from a set of arguments having to do only with the reasonableness (or, as he sees, possibly, the unreasonableness) of belief in God.

Even if true, the tendency of religious folk to use God as a cop out does not amount to an argument for non-belief. It does stand distinct, as an observation you have made, no doubt. It cannot, however, serve as an argument of any sort to address whether and why you don't believe in God - if it is the case that you don't.

[Barnaby]

That part you quoted me on is more of an observation, but I do think it kind of helps along on why people believe in Faith as well. I mean when it comes down to it, doesn't believing in religion kind of take some of the weight of your shoulders? Instead of worrying what direction in life to take, you're sure that God has a plan for you, and it will be revealed at the proper time? If something bad happens, God wanted the lesson to be learned. You won't die, eternal life awaits... If the point of religion is not to help alleviate the weight of reality, then what is it for? What is the gain?

Just trying to make sense of it all the best I can. Not trying to put down anyone's beliefs, just trying to figure out why the extreme pull towards religion is..