H.r. 1256

[Rani]

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111...1QHTEsq:e79343:
This is the only part of the actual bill I've seen that speaks on the issue of banning flavored tobaccos, and as such the wording (in the first paragraph) seems to me to only refer to cigarettes.
I could be totally wrong and there might be something else in the bill, but if this is the only statement as to the banning of flavored tobaccos, I think there shouldn't be too much to worry about.

The problem is that it leaves it up to the FDA to decide. That distinctly worrries me. Are we going to sit around and wait to find out "Oops! All flavored hookah tobacco is banned as of yesterday?"

'Rani

[Bulldog_916]

Believe it or not, this is only going to fuel a more powerful black market. Americans are already buying cigarettes from black market vendors if they know what they are looking for. We're looking at prohibition here. Steps toward that end anyway.

Does this mean stockpile shisha? Not necessarily. Here's why: The WHO put out a report saying hookah smoking is worse than cigarettes and blah blah blah. We know about that report. But we also know that there are reports saying that hookah smoking is less harmful than most believe and for some levels of carcinogens in life-long mild hookah smokers, can actually be better than non-smoking. What's good about this legislation is that every time the FDA looks at a ban/modification on a type of tobacco product, they have to read extensively into the literature on what exactly they are proposing, how it will modify the safety of the current product, etc. We're already flying under the radar when it comes to nicotine levels. Most cigarettes have between 6% and 12% nicotine per cigarette. We're at .5% at the highest level by volume. When they propose a ban or modification on shisha in particular, they would have to read the studies on the matter conducted by parties other than but including the WHO, in order to make an informed decision. Right now, with tax increases or bans on tobacco in the work place in particular, they only have to cite studies related to cigarettes. This FDA regulation will make it more difficult to lump all forms of tobacco under one umbrella. They will have to take them apart, which helps us in reality. It does that by forcing the federal government to test shisha under controlled conditions, not stacked ones like the WHO study. So before we get scared, let's wait to see what exactly happens with this first. It could help us.

[Genie]

The house signed it this afternoon.
EDIT - Sorry, meant Senate.
'Rani

The House will probably pass it tomorrow and then it will only need Obama signature. The bill is very very specific about only banning flavored cigarettes at this point. I'm hoping that stays their main focus. I don't know if there are many flavored dips out there, except for mint maybe?, they sure didn't mention snuff specifically like they did cigarettes. I think there's still hope.

[Genie]

Believe it or not, this is only going to fuel a more powerful black market.

I agree completely. And when they start reducing the amount of nicotine that's legal in cigarettes and other tobacco products, the black market trade in tobacco products is going to skyrocket.

We're already flying under the radar when it comes to nicotine levels. Most cigarettes have between 6% and 12% nicotine per cigarette. We're at .5% at the highest level by volume.

A huge point in our favor.

When they propose a ban or modification on shisha in particular, they would have to read the studies on the matter conducted by parties other than but including the WHO, in order to make an informed decision.

The general consensus by the medical field seems to be, at the moment, while there may be less nicotine per gram of shisha, that people smoke it for 30 or 45 minutes at a time, at least, as opposed to the 7 minutes it takes to smoke a cigarette and that, therefore, people end up getting a lot more nicotine, carbon dioxide, etc. etc. from hookah, not to mention just how much more actual smoke people inhale with hookah as opposed to cigarettes. As a result of these scientifically based opinions and some actual clinical results, I fear they'll start coming down not on the purchase of shisha for personal use but on shisha lounges. Or maybe they'll try and find a way to shorten the amount of time a person can smoke a hookah by regulating the size of the bowls or the amount of shisha that can be purchased at one time. Crazy idea, but who knows?

Right now, with tax increases or bans on tobacco in the work place in particular, they only have to cite studies related to cigarettes. This FDA regulation will make it more difficult to lump all forms of tobacco under one umbrella. They will have to take them apart, which helps us in reality. It does that by forcing the federal government to test shisha under controlled conditions, not stacked ones like the WHO study. So before we get scared, let's wait to see what exactly happens with this first. It could help us.

Really good point! I have to agree.

[The Caterpillar]

Truly, there are too many ambiguous terms in the bill. As with any hysteria, it's best to let the initial panic settle before worrying.

Also, most of the information we are getting is filtered by the news. Their chief concern is always with readership regardless of the issue that they are discussing.

The biggest concern on the hill is the discovery of Big Tobacco's ingredients. For whatever magical reason, they haven't had to disclose many of the roughly 200 additives to their products. The bill seems to be asking for a disclosure of information on the package (rightly so!) rather than an all-out ban.

As for the flavored tobacco, I have heard one of the magical bullshit reasons used in order to elude revealing their ingredients; Phillip-Morris (Altria) has declared that the unveiling of their "secret recipe" to be the key to their success, and thus, must remain a secret to their competition. The FDA, and consumers, should know what is being added.

Let's just kick back, blow some clouds and see what REALLY happens when the political smoke clears

[scratchy]

Aren't you glad you have a nak supplier in africa

[Ralleac]

Do I read this right? They want to ban flavored cigarettes? I honestly don't see how they can do that, isn't that about the same as banning a liqueur? If they pass this and ban flavored cigarettes, then I can't see why shisha wouldn't be next on the hit list. If I paraphrase this, "A cigarette shall not contain an artificial or natural flavor (other than tobacco or menthol) that is a characterizing flavor of the tobacco product or tobacco smoke."

If so, that kind of sucks. I rarely smoke anything anymore, but I do enjoy a clove once in a while...

[Rani]

Do I read this right? They want to ban flavored cigarettes? I honestly don't see how they can do that, isn't that about the same as banning a liqueur? If they pass this and ban flavored cigarettes, then I can't see why shisha wouldn't be next on the hit list. If I paraphrase this, "A cigarette shall not contain an artificial or natural flavor (other than tobacco or menthol) that is a characterizing flavor of the tobacco product or tobacco smoke."

If so, that kind of sucks. I rarely smoke anything anymore, but I do enjoy a clove once in a while...

Wouldn't cloves be exempt? Cloves technically aren't flavored. The tobacco isn't altered. The cigarette itself is a combination of the actual ground spice and tobacco. I would judge that to mean clove cigarettes are half herbal. I'm not sure that really could be considered a flavor. But again, this bill now dumps interpretation directly into the hands of the FDA. I don't count that as a good thing.

'Rani

[freeOS]

[quote name='Bulldog_916' date='Jun 11 2009, 10:49 PM' post='378578']
We're already flying under the radar when it comes to nicotine levels. Most cigarettes have between 6% and 12% nicotine per cigarette. We're at .5% at the highest level by volume.

I have to call this out. Where are you getting your levels from? Link to source?

Closest I can find is by weight and seems to fly in the face of what you posted.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/tobacco/tobacco_nic.shtml

[Sonthert]

I honestly wouldn't worry about it. The law was written so as to prevent the FDA from banning them outright. Some cigarette flavorings that have been used will be eliminated, the FDA doesn;t recognize them as GRAS.

In this case, I'm glad we are parading around as pipe tobacco. Are they going to ban flavored brier pipe tobacco? Of course not. It would cease to exist. The FDA wants to stop cigarette manufacturers from appealing to youth and stop them from adding dangerous flavors they've used in the past is my take on it.

Tangiers has been FDA compliant in terms of components from day 1.

[freeOS]

I honestly wouldn't worry about it. The law was written so as to prevent the FDA from banning them outright. Some cigarette flavorings that have been used will be eliminated, the FDA doesn;t recognize them as GRAS.

In this case, I'm glad we are parading around as pipe tobacco. Are they going to ban flavored brier pipe tobacco? Of course not. It would cease to exist. The FDA wants to stop cigarette manufacturers from appealing to youth and stop them from adding dangerous flavors they've used in the past is my take on it.

Tangiers has been FDA compliant in terms of components from day 1.

Yes but hookah lounges have been long targeted in minor-stings as it's the next big thing for kids to do. All the anti-tobacco groups are calling the lounges a big threat for youth anti-smoking.

[Genie]

Wouldn't cloves be exempt? Cloves technically aren't flavored. The tobacco isn't altered. The cigarette itself is a combination of the actual ground spice and tobacco. I would judge that to mean clove cigarettes are half herbal. I'm not sure that really could be considered a flavor. But again, this bill now dumps interpretation directly into the hands of the FDA. I don't count that as a good thing.

'Rani

I don't see how Cloves could be exempt.

....a cigarette or any of its component parts ........ shall not contain........... an artificial or natural flavor (other than tobacco or menthol) or an herb or spice, including strawberry, grape, orange, clove, cinnamon, pineapple, vanilla, coconut, licorice, cocoa, chocolate, cherry, or coffee, that is a characterizing flavor of the tobacco product or tobacco smoke.

The ground cloves are added for flavor. It doesn't matter that the flavor is natural, it's still and additive to a cigarette. If it's rolled and has tobacco in it, it's a cigarette. Seems they could sell clove only or tobacco only under that guideline, but not both.

[Genie]

In this case, I'm glad we are parading around as pipe tobacco. Are they going to ban flavored brier pipe tobacco? Of course not. It would cease to exist. The FDA wants to stop cigarette manufacturers from appealing to youth and stop them from adding dangerous flavors they've used in the past is my take on it.

Tangiers has been FDA compliant in terms of components from day 1.

I agree with you on this. I think cigarettes are the main focus. They're just so very convenient, extremely so for kids. Hookah smoking is not convenient. There's a lot to buy, there's a lot to do, and it takes a long while to do it. It's also harder to hide it. Whereas cigarettes you can do just about anywhere, anytime and you can ditch them quick if needed. You can't exactly stuff your hookah in your back pocket to hide it from the teacher.

[Genie]

We're already flying under the radar when it comes to nicotine levels. Most cigarettes have between 6% and 12% nicotine per cigarette. We're at .5% at the highest level by volume.

I have to call this out. Where are you getting your levels from? Link to source?

Closest I can find is by weight and seems to fly in the face of what you posted.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/tobacco/tobacco_nic.shtml

This 2006 article was pretty interesting and talks about the amount of nicotine in cigarettes in a way that's pretty clear and concise, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6083001418.html

It's a good thing they are going to start regulating this otherwise who knows how much crap they'd try to stuff in a cancer stick.

[shesha1]

I guess the reason I am panicked, is because this is the first step into a larger intrusion. Mark my words.

Big brother is watching

[contristo]

an increase in regulation was the last thing I was expecting when Obama took office... especially in regard to tobacco. Is he going to ban flavored tobacco because he personally is a smoker of regular cigs?

Way to kill an industry where taxes are collected and thousands of people have jobs in

[BBKakes]

Has anyone actually been reading this? I think alot of people's reactions here are way overblown...

[Rani]

Honestly I think it's a bid by Phillip-Morris to damage competition under the guise of helping our youth. What worries me about it is that the final decisions on what can and can't be sold are being placed in the hands of the FDA. Bureaucrats. Let them get involved in anything and it's guaranteed to go bad for the public at large.

'Rani

[Bulldog_916]

Has anyone actually been reading this? I think alot of people's reactions here are way overblown...

+1, although I'm still a little concerned about it.

[Zyram]

Man this is crazy. This bill will be the first step toward tobacco prohibition. We will all be criminals and have to buy shisha on the black market (for insane prices) or have to give up an awesome hobby. Nanny state FTW! Caffeine, sugar, fatty foods, get ready cause their day will come next.


-Z

[delSol_si]

I didn't read the article or half the posts as I don't feel like it, but I think I got a jist of it. First I think it is bullshit that it seems like big companies are always getting laws passed to eliminate competition. This isn't the first case and certainly won't be the last.

Second, if something does happen to where we all need to stock up, I think whoever finds out first should make a huge bold faced thread letting everyone know, that way we don't have to shuffle through 3-4 pages of stuff to find out.

Third, instead of wasting time on bullshit bills like this, why doesn't the government focus on something more important...like the economy and lack of jobs! I have been unemployed for a good month or so now and am sick of it!!! There are seriously no jobs out there. And I KNOW I am not the only one out there with these same difficulties. This is really scaring me for when I graduate college and absolutely HAVE to have a job.

[Zyram]

I didn't read the article or half the posts as I don't feel like it, but I think I got a jist of it. First I think it is bullshit that it seems like big companies are always getting laws passed to eliminate competition. This isn't the first case and certainly won't be the last.

Second, if something does happen to where we all need to stock up, I think whoever finds out first should make a huge bold faced thread letting everyone know, that way we don't have to shuffle through 3-4 pages of stuff to find out.

Third, instead of wasting time on bullshit bills like this, why doesn't the government focus on something more important...like the economy and lack of jobs! I have been unemployed for a good month or so now and am sick of it!!! There are seriously no jobs out there. And I KNOW I am not the only one out there with these same difficulties. This is really scaring me for when I graduate college and absolutely HAVE to have a job.

Come on down to Texas, we're not hit as hard thus far by the new depression, in all honesty. There's tough times though, for sure man, and I feel for you, myself I'm lucky to have a great family that helps me when I need it. I lost a job and had to move back home, but my grandfather employed me at his golf course so now I mow and all that but it's better than nothing while I"m looking for something else ya know?

-Z

[delSol_si]

Thanks Z, ya, I might actually be visiting Texas here in a bit. I moved back home and am living off my parents for now. I am going to back to school in the fall so I am not in nearly as bad of a position as others are. It just still sucks because I have made it to 90 hours of college with only $2 in debt and was planning to keep it that way, but looks like I will be pulling out more loans than I though.

My parents have told me I can always come home if I want/need to. I just don't like relying on others. I like supporting myself. My mom even said she would love for me just to spend the summer at home helping her around the house and catching up on some of my studies (I was taking 18 core business hours last semester and got 3 As and 3 Bs, so I need to go back and study the material I missed when I got Bs instead of As in those three classes). Both of my parents are fine with me not working, but I personally am not.

My sister lives with her boyfriend in Texas and my dad said if I want to visit her, he will pay for my plane ticket. Since I am unemployed, might as well.

[Sonthert]

What I was really worried about was S-982, the Senate version of it. Theirs was different than the HR 1256, and the House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi said they would amend theirs to match the Senate's version. So here is what I got from Thomas.LOC.gov:

"S.982
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (Introduced in Senate)

`SEC. 907. TOBACCO PRODUCT STANDARDS.

`(a) In General-

`(1) SPECIAL RULES-

`(A) SPECIAL RULE FOR CIGARETTES- Beginning 3 months after the date of enactment of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, a cigarette or any of its component parts (including the tobacco, filter, or paper) shall not contain, as a constituent (including a smoke constituent) or additive, an artificial or natural flavor (other than tobacco or menthol) or an herb or spice, including strawberry, grape, orange, clove, cinnamon, pineapple, vanilla, coconut, licorice, cocoa, chocolate, cherry, or coffee, that is a characterizing flavor of the tobacco product or tobacco smoke. Nothing in this subparagraph shall be construed to limit the Secretary's authority to take action under this section or other sections of this Act applicable to menthol or any artificial or natural flavor, herb, or spice not specified in this subparagraph."

Cigarettes. Banning flavorings on other products would eliminate pipe tobacco, snuff and chewing tobacco from the market, since they are all flavored. There will be a new labeling requirement for nicotine content, oddly enough, so the nicotine content will have to be on the packaging.

[Zyram]

Thanks Z, ya, I might actually be visiting Texas here in a bit. I moved back home and am living off my parents for now. I am going to back to school in the fall so I am not in nearly as bad of a position as others are. It just still sucks because I have made it to 90 hours of college with only $2 in debt and was planning to keep it that way, but looks like I will be pulling out more loans than I though.

My parents have told me I can always come home if I want/need to. I just don't like relying on others. I like supporting myself. My mom even said she would love for me just to spend the summer at home helping her around the house and catching up on some of my studies (I was taking 18 core business hours last semester and got 3 As and 3 Bs, so I need to go back and study the material I missed when I got Bs instead of As in those three classes). Both of my parents are fine with me not working, but I personally am not.

My sister lives with her boyfriend in Texas and my dad said if I want to visit her, he will pay for my plane ticket. Since I am unemployed, might as well.

Whereabouts does your sister live? I know there are several of us here on HF that are near DFW (Stuie and Scalliwag) and I am close as well, could have a get together if you're not gonna be too far out. Texas is big though, so if your sister is in like, Houston or San Antonio it's a massive drive.

-Z