'bamanomics Strikes Again!

[TheScotsman]

http://www.kpho.com/automotive/20232898/detail.html

And you want these people running the hospitals? Bahahah...

http://www.livinglakecountry.com/blogs/com...s/52186332.html
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/07/31/mornin...ics-is-failing/

Dealers are having people sign a second contract that they will return the new car if the gov't renegs, or fails to pay dealers/mfgrs in a timely manner. Oh, but by then, their old trade in is on the way to a smelter in CHINA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waj2KrKYTZo&fmt=18
That is amazingly enviromentally sound, This looks like a well thoughtout plan.

You can sign a contract saying you will return that liver if the gov't doesn't pay for it!

If they can't manage a tiny 1 billion program without clusterfucking it, how in the hell does anyone think they can manage anything bigger? Government by idots, elected by the uninformed.

'bamanomics in action, it's not good for much, but it's damn funny to watch.

[TheScotsman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0IcIxhd8ks

More of that environmentally sound idea.

Hmmmmm lookie all the burning oil smoke as the rings seize, and the blowby starts frying.
At best, to date 225,000 such clouds have been let loose into the atmosphere by this retarded idea, where are the enviro-nuts now?

As the engine dies it produces insane levels of hydrocarbons, and NOx emissions, not to mention CO2 from the silicate reaction.

[tinyj316]

So wait... you're saying the program is garbage because people are actually USING it?!?! According to the first article, sales have doubled! I don't see what the issue is? Is your gripe that its taking too long for dealers to do the work to get their money? I'm confused... Car salespeople rarely do work... Most of the time they sit there and do callbacks which lead to very little sales... how is an increase in sales a bad thing?

Also, after talking to the salespeople at a local dealership about this program, they said that most of the trade ins were from newer vehicles with people who had the disposable income to buy a new car anyway... Your volvo youtube video is proof positive of that. The bill was originally designed to get older vehicles off the road, but in turn, those who were able to afford a new car (not the ones driving the clunkers) got new cars while those who couldn't (the ones driving clunkers) couldn't in most cases... So yes, they screwed the pooch on that one...

As far as frivolous spending goes, what about the $890 billion that has been spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as the over 115000 dead (15K) or wounded(100K) soldiers that were a direct result of dubyah? What about the sub-prime lending that lead to the collapse of the housing market and entire fidoucheiary system that was a direct result of the dubyah administration?

Scotsman, you talk a big game about how the dems are fucking up the country, yet you don't seem to take into account the reason why the dems are doing so much is because the republican'ts fucked the country so hard, it'll take at least a year or two to try and fix the mess that was left before Obama got into office.

Oh, and Op-Ed's are totally unbiased and reliable news sources... you should use more of them when you start pissing contests online...

[Scalliwag]

there goes Scotty again. So Scot, how many insurance claims do you think insurance companies deny or delay until patients die each year? Now the wingnuts are saying that the government is going to euthanize old people and Obama is not a U.S. citizen. How manyof these looney tunes do you subscribe to?
Find me one thread you have posted based on complaints on republicans that you have raised Scot? You only halfass complain on them every now and then and try and pretend to be and independant or "neither" or whatever but you gotta know we know better man.

[TheScotsman]

So, the gov't found out if you give money away, people will take it. Hmmm, wonder how long that took to come up with?

You should go log onto the cars.gov and learn the full extent, limitations, regulations, and concept of this (in your opinion) oh, so great program.
BBBuuuuuuttttt first, you might familiarize yourself with their privacy policy from this program you seem to think is so good

"This application provides to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to
the CARS system, your computer is considered a federal computer system
and it is property of the United States government. Any and all uses
of this system and all files on this system may be intercepted,
monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to
authorized CARS, DoT and law enforcement personnel, as well as
authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign."

Who is "authorized" and why such a policy?
Your electronic healthcare records will have the same policy.

Only a complete moron would click continue.

Sheeple, again thinking something is a good idea without understanding the whole program.

[Barnaby]

On a side note here, the whole Dems vs. Republican battle is fucking lame. You're arguing which side of the quarter is better.. Who gives a fuck, its still the same quarter. You really think anything would be different if McCain won? Its just a show, for us to watch, pick sides, and argue amongst ourselves..

The Presidency is a puppet show, as is the whole political system. The people in charge will continue to do whatever they want, regardless of who they pick as our "leader".

I mean, seriously.. Anyone the media was propping up for us to vote for, should be the last people we voted for. There's a reason why candidates like Ron Paul were barred from debates, and never given any airtime. Oh well.. enjoy your show.. I'll see you in FEMA interment camps one day if you live near VA. Edited August 1, 2009 by Barnaby

[TheScotsman]

On a side note here, the whole Dems vs. Republican battle is fucking lame. You're arguing which side of the quarter is better.. Who gives a fuck, its still the same quarter. You really think anything would be different if McCain won? Its just a show, for us to watch, pick sides, and argue amongst ourselves..

The Presidency is a puppet show, as is the whole political system. The people in charge will continue to do whatever they want, regardless of who they pick as our "leader".

I mean, seriously.. Anyone the media was propping up for us to vote for, should be the last people we voted for. There's a reason why candidates like Ron Paul were barred from debates, and never given any airtime. Oh well.. enjoy your show.. I'll see you in FEMA interment camps one day if you live near VA.

so exactly on the money. (just to continue the quarter analogy)
If I get to a VA camp, I call the cot with the least piss soaked in!
provided we don't have a guest listing on the red list, naturally.

[Zinite]

So, the gov't found out if you give money away, people will take it. Hmmm, wonder how long that took to come up with?

You should go log onto the cars.gov and learn the full extent, limitations, regulations, and concept of this (in your opinion) oh, so great program.
BBBuuuuuuttttt first, you might familiarize yourself with their privacy policy from this program you seem to think is so good

"This application provides to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to
the CARS system, your computer is considered a federal computer system
and it is property of the United States government. Any and all uses
of this system and all files on this system may be intercepted,
monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to
authorized CARS, DoT and law enforcement personnel, as well as
authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign."

Who is "authorized" and why such a policy?
Your electronic healthcare records will have the same policy.

Only a complete moron would click continue.

Sheeple, again thinking something is a good idea without understanding the whole program.

That is the privacy policy for the program that allows dealerships to log into the government databases and participate. That is not for the general public. If you would actually bother to go to the cars.gov website as a citizen, you don't have to agree to anything to make use of the site. All you are bound to is the Department of Transportation's generalized privacy policy. Take your fear-mongering elsewhere.

[ryno]

On a side note here, the whole Dems vs. Republican battle is fucking lame. You're arguing which side of the quarter is better.. Who gives a fuck, its still the same quarter. You really think anything would be different if McCain won? Its just a show, for us to watch, pick sides, and argue amongst ourselves..

The Presidency is a puppet show, as is the whole political system. The people in charge will continue to do whatever they want, regardless of who they pick as our "leader".

I mean, seriously.. Anyone the media was propping up for us to vote for, should be the last people we voted for. There's a reason why candidates like Ron Paul were barred from debates, and never given any airtime. Oh well.. enjoy your show.. I'll see you in FEMA interment camps one day if you live near VA.

I couldnt agree with you more. You have by any chance watched The Obama Deception have you? Reason is, it expains what you just said. I really wish Ron Paul would have gotten in on more debates or just won.... I think they would'vd killed him though

[Rani]

http://www.kpho.com/automotive/20232898/detail.html

And you want these people running the hospitals? Bahahah...

http://www.livinglakecountry.com/blogs/com...s/52186332.html
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/07/31/mornin...ics-is-failing/

Dealers are having people sign a second contract that they will return the new car if the gov't renegs, or fails to pay dealers/mfgrs in a timely manner. Oh, but by then, their old trade in is on the way to a smelter in CHINA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waj2KrKYTZo&fmt=18
That is amazingly enviromentally sound, This looks like a well thoughtout plan.

You can sign a contract saying you will return that liver if the gov't doesn't pay for it!

If they can't manage a tiny 1 billion program without clusterfucking it, how in the hell does anyone think they can manage anything bigger? Government by idots, elected by the uninformed.

'bamanomics in action, it's not good for much, but it's damn funny to watch.

***yawn***

***stretch***

***wiggle back into satin sheets***

***reach for remote***

Nothing on this channel but reruns.

'Rani

***purrrrrrrr***

[Sonthert]

I don;t like the cash for clunkers program. I think some of the problems that we have, as a country, right now are from people being maxed out and having little money to spend...so the idea is to get them more into debt by getting them to get rid of a car they already have paid off and then get a new car that they have to make payments on?

I'm just waiting for GM to come back around the first quarter of 2010 and say "We're out of money again. Can we have more?" I don't know that it will be the case, but why do we believe they have learned anything about running a company responsibly? Can they even run GM responsibly? Do they have the skills/ability to do that?

[TheScotsman]

So, the gov't found out if you give money away, people will take it. Hmmm, wonder how long that took to come up with?

You should go log onto the cars.gov and learn the full extent, limitations, regulations, and concept of this (in your opinion) oh, so great program.
BBBuuuuuuttttt first, you might familiarize yourself with their privacy policy from this program you seem to think is so good

"This application provides to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to
the CARS system, your computer is considered a federal computer system
and it is property of the United States government. Any and all uses
of this system and all files on this system may be intercepted,
monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to
authorized CARS, DoT and law enforcement personnel, as well as
authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign."

Who is "authorized" and why such a policy?
Your electronic healthcare records will have the same policy.

Only a complete moron would click continue.

Sheeple, again thinking something is a good idea without understanding the whole program.

That is the privacy policy for the program that allows dealerships to log into the government databases and participate. That is not for the general public. If you would actually bother to go to the cars.gov website as a citizen, you don't have to agree to anything to make use of the site. All you are bound to is the Department of Transportation's generalized privacy policy. Take your fear-mongering elsewhere.

You have no understanding of the statement, or it's implications. (and a nice koolaid smile, go wipe that off... it looks funny)

first, that privacy statement allows monitoring that violates the ECPA titles 1 and 2.

second, anyone not utilizing the CARS program, but that has had contact resulting in electronic documents, with a dealer - from a cash purchase to just sending an email to them, or a message to one of their employees on a personal basis, can (likely will) be in the harvested information. The dealer can agree, but that doesn't mean all the 3rd party information sources have agreed. Constitutionally, the dealer can not agree to share a persons information without their approval under the ECPA.

third, this was a model for the new gov't privacy policy. Under those terms maybe you would like all your med info.

fourth, under that policy, a customer sitting in the waiting room using the wi-fi as their car is repaired would be holding a "federal government computer system" and anything on their craputer is fair game.

fifth, it was dumped at the order of the White House after it was public.

fifth, if you used the cars program, did anyone tell the customers that 100% of all the information was going to be shared with anyone the gov't wanted to share it with, anywhere, for any reason, without disclosure or knowledge?

Funny, the same liberals that screamed about the patriot act monitoring suddenly think even deeper monitoring is fine under the current admin.

Agree with Sonthert, GM is going to be back for $ this fall. The problem with GM is that they build crap, overpriced, low quality crap. The CARS program is yet another scheme to get the public financing items again, Funded with money borrowed from china, and used to buy products from a company partially owned by the government, already bailed out on credit from China. Man, that is a GREAT plan!

[tinyj316]

It must be a burden knowing everything Scotty... or at least thinking you know everything...

[Rani]

Just out of curiosity Scotsman, do you ever post anything related to hookahs? Or do you just come here to harangue the rest of us about politics? I can't recall any hookah postings off the top of my head.

You don't like democrats. I get it. You don't liike Obama. I do - so far. That doesn't mean I automatically agree with everything he has or is going to do, but he's at least working on it. I seem to recall 8 years of your favorite party sitting around going "oh, there's no probrem, really, and when's our next pay raise?" He's a human being - he's going to make mistakes, at least he admits and tries to correct them unlike George Duh-b-u, whose biggest failing in my opinion was his refusal to ever see he could be wrong.

You don't like the CARS program, so don't use it. You don't like hooking up to a federal computer, so don't. If someone logs onto your computer are you going to give them free rein to muck around in any way they please without any controls? I know you're not that stupid. Why should you think our government would allow it?

My biggest problem with you is that you insist you're right and everyone who doesn't agree is stupid and you say so. That puts you squarely in the category of George Duh-b-u in my opinion.

Like I said, nothing on this channel but reruns.

'Rani

[Zinite]

Funny, the same liberals that screamed about the patriot act monitoring suddenly think even deeper monitoring is fine under the current admin.

That's quite an assumption. I never said that it was okay for the government to 'trick' people into agreeing to a monitoring service. That would be terrible if it were true. I am merely trying to help you get your facts straight. Here is a boat load of more information about what you're talking about:

http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comment...idious_plot_by/

Specifically this comment:

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/...inue_to/c0blro7

You'll find that people who actually know about computers have delved deeply into this and found that it was nothing more than hyperbole.

It is for dealers accessing the nationwide database of VIN numbers.

I'm not sure what line of work you are in, but if it's anything involving synchronization with government databases, you'll find that this is a standard practice. For the government to allow an organization to have access to a somewhat private database, you have to agree to all sorts of crazy shit. If you don't want them considering your terminal a government terminal for the duration of your connection, don't sign up as a dealer for Cash for Clunkers. There was no insidious plot to take over citizen's computers.

[tinyj316]

[Tyler]

As one of the forum's outspoken republicans I can honestly say that this is complete and utter bullshit. First of all, my uncle owns a BMW dealership, and is a republican himself, he -- and many others in his line of work -- think that the Cash for Clunkers program is complete garbage and isn't going to fix anything, except the banks who are now giving out more loans that people can't afford but think they can because they got a $4500 credit towards their new car.

Second of all, boiling down the "last 8 years" of Bush's terms the way Boho did is no better than what Scot is attemptign to do to the Democratic term, both arguements are pointless and ignore the actual facts. Did the republicans mess up a lot recently? Yes. Did the democrats mess up a lot recently? Yes. The country as a whole, meaning both parties, are to blame for our current situation. We both caused problems the other had to try and fix their way, which made them worse, and now the same thing is happening, making them worse yet agian. What we need to do -- as much as I hate to say it -- is let whatever party is in power, currently the Democrats, and let them at least put in motion fixes to the biggest issues. This does not mean the completely retarded healthcare proposal, but that's another can of worms, then -- no matter who gets elected in 2012 or 2016, keep using the same policy, unless it's obviously and factually not working. Once we're stabalized then we can again worry about which side has the better ideas on specific topics.

As of right now, I do not like Obama at all, but I do think he needs to be able to enact his plans -- unless totally senseless -- to at least attempt fixing some of the mess we're in.

[Zinite]

As one of the forum's outspoken republicans I can honestly say that this is complete and utter bullshit. First of all, my uncle owns a BMW dealership, and is a republican himself, he -- and many others in his line of work -- think that the Cash for Clunkers program is complete garbage and isn't going to fix anything, except the banks who are now giving out more loans that people can't afford but think they can because they got a $4500 credit towards their new car.

Second of all, boiling down the "last 8 years" of Bush's terms the way Boho did is no better than what Scot is attemptign to do to the Democratic term, both arguements are pointless and ignore the actual facts. Did the republicans mess up a lot recently? Yes. Did the democrats mess up a lot recently? Yes. The country as a whole, meaning both parties, are to blame for our current situation. We both caused problems the other had to try and fix their way, which made them worse, and now the same thing is happening, making them worse yet agian. What we need to do -- as much as I hate to say it -- is let whatever party is in power, currently the Democrats, and let them at least put in motion fixes to the biggest issues. This does not mean the completely retarded healthcare proposal, but that's another can of worms, then -- no matter who gets elected in 2012 or 2016, keep using the same policy, unless it's obviously and factually not working. Once we're stabalized then we can again worry about which side has the better ideas on specific topics.

As of right now, I do not like Obama at all, but I do think he needs to be able to enact his plans -- unless totally senseless -- to at least attempt fixing some of the mess we're in.

Here's the issue as I see it: Democrat or Republican, our government is completely FUBAR'd. There is no quick fix for any of the shit that is going on right now. McCain or Obama, we'd be in the exact same position. We're past the point of an elected official going in and being able to fix anything. It's not like Obama (or McCain for that matter) could go in and start getting shit done. Our government was designed (purposefully) to be SLOW. This slowness, also known as the legislation process, was meant to increase debate on important issues. It has now become a cesspool of corruption. To get an idea of this corruption, watch this short PBS video:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/profile.html

It details the corruption going on at the highest levels regarding health care reform. The health care industry manipulated the media, and threatened members of congress in order to stifle progress with this bill.

I wish there was a quick solution... but there's not. The last thing we need is people dividing themselves into irate extremes. We need to come together as Americans and let our elected officials know that this bullshit can't go on any longer.

[Rani]

As one of the forum's outspoken republicans I can honestly say that this is complete and utter bullshit. First of all, my uncle owns a BMW dealership, and is a republican himself, he -- and many others in his line of work -- think that the Cash for Clunkers program is complete garbage and isn't going to fix anything, except the banks who are now giving out more loans that people can't afford but think they can because they got a $4500 credit towards their new car.

Second of all, boiling down the "last 8 years" of Bush's terms the way Boho did is no better than what Scot is attemptign to do to the Democratic term, both arguements are pointless and ignore the actual facts. Did the republicans mess up a lot recently? Yes. Did the democrats mess up a lot recently? Yes. The country as a whole, meaning both parties, are to blame for our current situation. We both caused problems the other had to try and fix their way, which made them worse, and now the same thing is happening, making them worse yet agian. What we need to do -- as much as I hate to say it -- is let whatever party is in power, currently the Democrats, and let them at least put in motion fixes to the biggest issues. This does not mean the completely retarded healthcare proposal, but that's another can of worms, then -- no matter who gets elected in 2012 or 2016, keep using the same policy, unless it's obviously and factually not working. Once we're stabalized then we can again worry about which side has the better ideas on specific topics.

As of right now, I do not like Obama at all, but I do think he needs to be able to enact his plans -- unless totally senseless -- to at least attempt fixing some of the mess we're in.

Now I know why we keep you around..... The occasional voice of reason. When you're not off on one of your own rants, of course.

A lodge brother of mine is an economist. He says the CARS program is valid not because it's such a good program but because the biggest cause of recession/depression is stagnation in cash-flow. Banks stopped lending, people stopped buying and things slowly ground to a halt. After the bubble of economic boom burst. And nobody wanted to see the handwriting on the wall. In construction the precussor of this disaster was felt several years ago. The builders didn't care. They were getting over the top dollars for their products, and banks were finding a way to lend. The lending policies they instituted to shore up the bulders should have never been put into place. Because if the builders hadn't been able to get people financed they wouldn't have continued to over build. Domino theory in full effect. And quite frankly luxury cars like your uncle's dealership were just as much a part of the problem. A car is supposed to get you from poiint A to point B efficiently. It's not supposed to be a near-religious experience. Our chasing after status symbols including luxury cars and too expensive houses is a major part of what got us into this situation.

Health care is a bloody disaster and needs to be changed. I personally haven't read the proposal cover to cover so I don't know if it's going to end up being bad or good. And our legislature is going to muck around with it a whole lot before it goes anywhere. So I'm going to have to wait and see what the final verdict on that is.

Bottom line is, things are starting to move again. The experts say construction/real estate has hit completely bottom and is beginning to move upwards again. Design houses are working. Banks are beginning to lend again with much stricter standards. And fewer people are living outside their means. If stagnation is truly the biggest problem then the new administration has at least given it a swift kick to get it moving again. The rest we're going to have to wait and see...... Still love you though FSU!

'Rani

[Scalliwag]

I'm gonna guess that most people are not buying BMW's on the program.

[Rani]

I'm gonna guess that most people are not buying BMW's on the program.

What I hear is that only certain models even among each manufacturer qualify and luxury cars don't, sooooooooooooo.......

'Rani

[Scalliwag]

I'm gonna guess that most people are not buying BMW's on the program.

What I hear is that only certain models even among each manufacturer qualify and luxury cars don't, sooooooooooooo.......

'Rani

So what we have is an owner of a dealership that is not getting anything from the program not liking the program? That's a real shocker.

[Tyler]

Actually they are, too many. And the dealership knows that these people cannot afford them but the bank says they can, which is where the problem comes in. People forget to factor in interest in their payments and everyone seems to think they'll qualify for 0% financing, even though the dealership says they'll more than likely end up at 5-6-or 7%, throw that onto a 25k, 30k, 40k loan and you've just added $100 easily to your payment you wernt expecting, then you get your statement and get confused.

[Scalliwag]

Actually they are, too many. And the dealership knows that these people cannot afford them but the bank says they can, which is where the problem comes in. People forget to factor in interest in their payments and everyone seems to think they'll qualify for 0% financing, even though the dealership says they'll more than likely end up at 5-6-or 7%, throw that onto a 25k, 30k, 40k loan and you've just added $100 easily to your payment you wernt expecting, then you get your statement and get confused.

People are getting 30k up loans? If the guv pays $4500 for the clunker then it would be $34,500 and up cars. Are you sure about that?
One of my daughters has a '99 Nissan Sentra that does not qualify because of gas mileage. I have a '94 Dodge Dakota that would qualify but I like my truck and an automatic... and my RX8 is a 6 speed and not too easy for me to drive with my hand injury. Plus that bitch is nearly paid for and worth a bit more than $4500. Ms. Scalli would kill to keep her '03 Axiom and my eldest feels the same about her Mazda3 and they're both worth more.
So the program does not fit anybody in my family. I do with my daughter's Nissan qualified though because with $4500 to put down on an economical car she could afford payments and give me less worry with her driving a more dependable car.

I've heard a lot of dealers are worried that they won't get the $4500 per unit as promised by the guv and/or are worried about delays but that if the program pays off on their part they are damn happy to be getting the business.

[Rani]

Actually they are, too many. And the dealership knows that these people cannot afford them but the bank says they can, which is where the problem comes in. People forget to factor in interest in their payments and everyone seems to think they'll qualify for 0% financing, even though the dealership says they'll more than likely end up at 5-6-or 7%, throw that onto a 25k, 30k, 40k loan and you've just added $100 easily to your payment you wernt expecting, then you get your statement and get confused.

People are getting 30k up loans? If the guv pays $4500 for the clunker then it would be $34,500 and up cars. Are you sure about that?
One of my daughters has a '99 Nissan Sentra that does not qualify because of gas mileage. I have a '94 Dodge Dakota that would qualify but I like my truck and an automatic... and my RX8 is a 6 speed and not too easy for me to drive with my hand injury. Plus that bitch is nearly paid for and worth a bit more than $4500. Ms. Scalli would kill to keep her '03 Axiom and my eldest feels the same about her Mazda3 and they're both worth more.
So the program does not fit anybody in my family. I do with my daughter's Nissan qualified though because with $4500 to put down on an economical car she could afford payments and give me less worry with her driving a more dependable car.

I've heard a lot of dealers are worried that they won't get the $4500 per unit as promised by the guv and/or are worried about delays but that if the program pays off on their part they are damn happy to be getting the business. AND additional rebates already in place aren't be taken away just for this one, so if you work it right it can add up.

If you really, really want to use it for your daughters car, some manufacturers are matching the CARS rebate. So if the car qualified for $4,500 and the manufacturer matched it, then you'd actually get $9,000 towards the purchase. And yeah, almost nobody qualifies for 0% interest, but still uwith up to $9,000 off could get her into a dependable car she can afford. Some local dealerships here are guaranteeing at least $4,500 in writing (for those who don't have a trade in) from their own pockets if necessary with backing form the manufacturer. I think it's either Ford or GM that's matching the amount but I can't remember for certain.

'Rani

Edit: And I think the dealers are fine with it because the money is flowing out to them. So quickly that today they had to go back in and do more funding because they've given out so much (assuming they were going to keep the program).