'bamanomics Strikes Again!

[Rani]

By the way, you have to love all the drama and confusion around a program. You take your car to the dealership, see if it qualifies and for how much, you pick out a qualified eplacement model and then you still have to do the financing. With stricter lending guidelines from lendors, it's unlikely people are going to qualify left and right for more vehicles they can't afford. You still have to be able to qualify for financing just as you always did. They're not exactly giving cars out left and right with no qualifications at all. Scalli, if you think it would help your daughter, use it. Check the website and it will tell you if the car qualifies. Then check sho's offering the biggest additional money, and go for it within budget. It's like anything else..... Each of us is still responsible for spending within limits we can afford. The "it's garbage" scenario just doesn't play out against the facts.

'Rani

[Scalliwag]

Actually they are, too many. And the dealership knows that these people cannot afford them but the bank says they can, which is where the problem comes in. People forget to factor in interest in their payments and everyone seems to think they'll qualify for 0% financing, even though the dealership says they'll more than likely end up at 5-6-or 7%, throw that onto a 25k, 30k, 40k loan and you've just added $100 easily to your payment you wernt expecting, then you get your statement and get confused.

People are getting 30k up loans? If the guv pays $4500 for the clunker then it would be $34,500 and up cars. Are you sure about that?
One of my daughters has a '99 Nissan Sentra that does not qualify because of gas mileage. I have a '94 Dodge Dakota that would qualify but I like my truck and an automatic... and my RX8 is a 6 speed and not too easy for me to drive with my hand injury. Plus that bitch is nearly paid for and worth a bit more than $4500. Ms. Scalli would kill to keep her '03 Axiom and my eldest feels the same about her Mazda3 and they're both worth more.
So the program does not fit anybody in my family. I do with my daughter's Nissan qualified though because with $4500 to put down on an economical car she could afford payments and give me less worry with her driving a more dependable car.

I've heard a lot of dealers are worried that they won't get the $4500 per unit as promised by the guv and/or are worried about delays but that if the program pays off on their part they are damn happy to be getting the business.

If you really, really want to use it for your daughters car, some manufacturers are matching the CARS rebate. So if the car qualified for $4,500 and the manufacturer matched it, then you'd actually get $9,000 towards the purchase. And yeah, almost nobody qualifies for 0% interest, but still uwith up to $9,000 off could get her into a dependable car she can afford. Some local dealerships here are guaranteeing at least $4,500 in writing (for those who don't have a trade in) from their own pockets if necessary with backing form the manufacturer. I think it's either Ford or GM that's matching the amount but I can't remember for certain.

'Rani

her car doesn't qualify because it gets too good of gas mileage. She just got her esteticians license and going to take a better job so that will help as far as higher income but being at a new job that goes against her. So I'm pretty sure I'll have to co-sign when we cross that bridge

[Barnaby]

I couldnt agree with you more. You have by any chance watched The Obama Deception have you? Reason is, it expains what you just said. I really wish Ron Paul would have gotten in on more debates or just won.... I think they would'vd killed him though

Nope, haven't had a chance to see it yet. Yea, its too bad Ron Paul could never have been given the opportunity. Anyone coming out attacking the fed, wanting to abolish income tax, etc, you know he's on our side.. LOL

[Tyler]

My uncle's dealership has currently 98 sells under the cash for clunkers program but was told by the goverment that they might not get any of the money because they ran out, so that's a sweet 441,000 out of their pocket. Which really sucks because dealerships don't really make their major bucks off of a car sell, they make it on service. Even if the new $2b addition doesn't get filabustered, there are thousands of people in the same situation.

[chinodos]

As one of the forum's outspoken republicans I can honestly say that this is complete and utter bullshit. First of all, my uncle owns a BMW dealership, and is a republican himself, he -- and many others in his line of work -- think that the Cash for Clunkers program is complete garbage and isn't going to fix anything, except the banks who are now giving out more loans that people can't afford but think they can because they got a $4500 credit towards their new car.

Second of all, boiling down the "last 8 years" of Bush's terms the way Boho did is no better than what Scot is attemptign to do to the Democratic term, both arguements are pointless and ignore the actual facts. Did the republicans mess up a lot recently? Yes. Did the democrats mess up a lot recently? Yes. The country as a whole, meaning both parties, are to blame for our current situation. We both caused problems the other had to try and fix their way, which made them worse, and now the same thing is happening, making them worse yet agian. What we need to do -- as much as I hate to say it -- is let whatever party is in power, currently the Democrats, and let them at least put in motion fixes to the biggest issues. This does not mean the completely retarded healthcare proposal, but that's another can of worms, then -- no matter who gets elected in 2012 or 2016, keep using the same policy, unless it's obviously and factually not working. Once we're stabalized then we can again worry about which side has the better ideas on specific topics.

As of right now, I do not like Obama at all, but I do think he needs to be able to enact his plans -- unless totally senseless -- to at least attempt fixing some of the mess we're in.

Now I know why we keep you around..... The occasional voice of reason. When you're not off on one of your own rants, of course.

A lodge brother of mine is an economist. He says the CARS program is valid not because it's such a good program but because the biggest cause of recession/depression is stagnation in cash-flow. Banks stopped lending, people stopped buying and things slowly ground to a halt. After the bubble of economic boom burst. And nobody wanted to see the handwriting on the wall. In construction the precussor of this disaster was felt several years ago. The builders didn't care. They were getting over the top dollars for their products, and banks were finding a way to lend. The lending policies they instituted to shore up the bulders should have never been put into place. Because if the builders hadn't been able to get people financed they wouldn't have continued to over build. Domino theory in full effect. And quite frankly luxury cars like your uncle's dealership were just as much a part of the problem. A car is supposed to get you from poiint A to point B efficiently. It's not supposed to be a near-religious experience. Our chasing after status symbols including luxury cars and too expensive houses is a major part of what got us into this situation.

Health care is a bloody disaster and needs to be changed. I personally haven't read the proposal cover to cover so I don't know if it's going to end up being bad or good. And our legislature is going to muck around with it a whole lot before it goes anywhere. So I'm going to have to wait and see what the final verdict on that is.

Bottom line is, things are starting to move again. The experts say construction/real estate has hit completely bottom and is beginning to move upwards again. Design houses are working. Banks are beginning to lend again with much stricter standards. And fewer people are living outside their means. If stagnation is truly the biggest problem then the new administration has at least given it a swift kick to get it moving again. The rest we're going to have to wait and see...... Still love you though FSU!

'Rani

I agree with this 100% some plans are just by-plans to keep things moving until you get that idea that completely turns things around. I am a Obama supporter, but I do remember that he's not in a cape and does not have any super powers so we just have to be patient and ride this bad patch through. I do not disagree with all of Republican theory, but I definately do not agree with dubya's theory. He forgot the one obligation of presidency that is always the same, "The buck stops here"

[Rani]

As one of the forum's outspoken republicans I can honestly say that this is complete and utter bullshit. First of all, my uncle owns a BMW dealership, and is a republican himself, he -- and many others in his line of work -- think that the Cash for Clunkers program is complete garbage and isn't going to fix anything, except the banks who are now giving out more loans that people can't afford but think they can because they got a $4500 credit towards their new car.

Second of all, boiling down the "last 8 years" of Bush's terms the way Boho did is no better than what Scot is attemptign to do to the Democratic term, both arguements are pointless and ignore the actual facts. Did the republicans mess up a lot recently? Yes. Did the democrats mess up a lot recently? Yes. The country as a whole, meaning both parties, are to blame for our current situation. We both caused problems the other had to try and fix their way, which made them worse, and now the same thing is happening, making them worse yet agian. What we need to do -- as much as I hate to say it -- is let whatever party is in power, currently the Democrats, and let them at least put in motion fixes to the biggest issues. This does not mean the completely retarded healthcare proposal, but that's another can of worms, then -- no matter who gets elected in 2012 or 2016, keep using the same policy, unless it's obviously and factually not working. Once we're stabalized then we can again worry about which side has the better ideas on specific topics.

As of right now, I do not like Obama at all, but I do think he needs to be able to enact his plans -- unless totally senseless -- to at least attempt fixing some of the mess we're in.

Now I know why we keep you around..... The occasional voice of reason. When you're not off on one of your own rants, of course.

A lodge brother of mine is an economist. He says the CARS program is valid not because it's such a good program but because the biggest cause of recession/depression is stagnation in cash-flow. Banks stopped lending, people stopped buying and things slowly ground to a halt. After the bubble of economic boom burst. And nobody wanted to see the handwriting on the wall. In construction the precussor of this disaster was felt several years ago. The builders didn't care. They were getting over the top dollars for their products, and banks were finding a way to lend. The lending policies they instituted to shore up the bulders should have never been put into place. Because if the builders hadn't been able to get people financed they wouldn't have continued to over build. Domino theory in full effect. And quite frankly luxury cars like your uncle's dealership were just as much a part of the problem. A car is supposed to get you from poiint A to point B efficiently. It's not supposed to be a near-religious experience. Our chasing after status symbols including luxury cars and too expensive houses is a major part of what got us into this situation.

Health care is a bloody disaster and needs to be changed. I personally haven't read the proposal cover to cover so I don't know if it's going to end up being bad or good. And our legislature is going to muck around with it a whole lot before it goes anywhere. So I'm going to have to wait and see what the final verdict on that is.

Bottom line is, things are starting to move again. The experts say construction/real estate has hit completely bottom and is beginning to move upwards again. Design houses are working. Banks are beginning to lend again with much stricter standards. And fewer people are living outside their means. If stagnation is truly the biggest problem then the new administration has at least given it a swift kick to get it moving again. The rest we're going to have to wait and see...... Still love you though FSU!

'Rani

I agree with this 100% some plans are just by-plans to keep things moving until you get that idea that completely turns things around. I am a Obama supporter, but I do remember that he's not in a cape and does not have any super powers so we just have to be patient and ride this bad patch through. I do not disagree with all of Republican theory, but I definately do not agree with dubya's theory. He forgot the one obligation of presidency that is always the same, "The buck stops here"

I think it's also important to remember that it's human nature to live in the moment. Very few people actually recall through the steps over time how good it was 9 years ago through it's decline over the following eight years. I had a friend doing time. I kept in touch through lots of letters because his family mostly turned their back on him. He went into the state prison system in the beginning of George Duh's administration. I'd tell him what was happening and he really didn't believe it was as bad as I was telling him. He was completely in support of the administration. He thought I was just being a typical liberal democrat. Well, he got out last year and was stunned at how much the country had declined during his absence from the rest of the country. He called me from the grocery store ranting about the prices - what they were compared to what they were went he went in - more than doubled. He was totally floored by the condition of the country. It's kind of like a co-worker losing weight. When you see them every day, you don't really mark the change because it happens so slowly. See someone you haven't seen in 6 months who lost the same amount of weight and you're shocked by the change. He didn't witness the downward slide so he saw how wide the gap between what we had and what we have now. We declined so slowly to the point where we are now. If you thought it was only going to take a few months before it's all resolved, you're not remembering accurately the past eight years. Our current administration is getting things moving again and even the professional doom-sayers are saying it's looking up. Yet people still insist on living in the moment. "It's bad! It's bad!" Guys, it's been bad....... For a very long time.

'Rani

[Svaals]

I think it's also important to remember that it's human nature to live in the moment. Very few people actually recall through the steps over time how good it was 9 years ago through it's decline over the following eight years. I had a friend doing time. I kept in touch through lots of letters because his family mostly turned their back on him. He went into the state prison system in the beginning of George Duh's administration. I'd tell him what was happening and he really didn't believe it was as bad as I was telling him. He was completely in support of the administration. He thought I was just being a typical liberal democrat. Well, he got out last year and was stunned at how much the country had declined during his absence from the rest of the country. He called me from the grocery store ranting about the prices - what they were compared to what they were went he went in - more than doubled. He was totally floored by the condition of the country. It's kind of like a co-worker losing weight. When you see them every day, you don't really mark the change because it happens so slowly. See someone you haven't seen in 6 months who lost the same amount of weight and you're shocked by the change. He didn't witness the downward slide so he saw how wide the gap between what we had and what we have now. We declined so slowly to the point where we are now. If you thought it was only going to take a few months before it's all resolved, you're not remembering accurately the past eight years. Our current administration is getting things moving again and even the professional doom-sayers are saying it's looking up. Yet people still insist on living in the moment. "It's bad! It's bad!" Guys, it's been bad....... For a very long time.

'Rani

TESTIFY!

[NarghileNights]

i'm very republican, but i don't feel like arguing about all that other fun stuff.

i have a friend who works at a dealership who is participating in the program. they sat down and figured out the numbers:

if you divide $1 billion by the number of car dealerships in the nation, you end up only having 12.. TWELVE deals per dealership.

the dealerships around here haven't been taking cars in, instead they are putting people on a waitlist for when the money actually comes.. if ever. oh, and if you dont happen to be in the top 12 on the list? oh.. sorry, you're SOL.

[gaia.plateau]

This is such a non-issue that it's non-issueness should really be the issue.

The only reason to consider this controversial in the slightest, is being one of the volunteer parrots of Ducey, Hannity, Beck, Kavuto and O'Reily.

It's the exact same thing as Swine Flu; a story for the lack of stories. Edited August 6, 2009 by gaia.plateau

[NarghileNights]

huh?

i just made a valid point about people most likely not getting anything out of it or putting dealerships in a weird financial situation. the only reason I posted was because I am very close to someone who works at a dealership and has been dealing with this issue since it started.

and I get told I'm a parrot for a right wing show?

[Svaals]

Yes, $1B was totally insufficient for the program, but more money will probably be thrown at it in the near future. It does move money, though, and honestly $1B and a little inconvenience is a lot better for car dealerships than nothing.

I know it's hard to look on the bright side in times like this, but what is being done now is better than what has been going on for 8 years.

[gaia.plateau]

huh?

i just made a valid point about people most likely not getting anything out of it or putting dealerships in a weird financial situation. the only reason I posted was because I am very close to someone who works at a dealership and has been dealing with this issue since it started.

and I get told I'm a parrot for a right wing show?

It wasn't directed at you specifically, but at the "issue" itself, for which this thread was started.

To your argument;
1. My understanding is that the programme was only directed at a relatively small number of dealers in urban areas, each offering the deal to several hundred people- do you have some evidence to to contrary?
2. Do you think that the administration, the initiative's architects, deliberately limited it? Or do you think that your congress did?
3. Regardless of which you assume, do you think that they will refrain from expanding the initiative now that it has shown success?

More broadly, in this thread and in your media this initiative has been both criticized primarily for its economic impact upon the dealer, and to some extent the complications(?) it involves for the consumer. It strikes me that this is quite beneficial to the US economy in a number of ways, which I will outline in an equation.
1. The offer behooves all who take it up in the very long term - better gas mileage = less money spent on gas = more money to spend elsewhere = a stronger, more diverse economy + less political power of oil corporations.
2. Less energy used by the US population = less dependence upon foreign oil = increased geopolitical power + less debt and reliance.
3. A somewhat reduced negative impact on the environment = greater global legitimacy + slightly reduced chance of the planetary rejection of our species.

Just to name a few. The idea that this is some form of nationalization or bailout is preposterous; it's simply another subsidy, such have been given widespread across your country since 1933. The 'free market enterpriser' critics need to find time machines and travel back to before then, if they seek to live and work in a free market United States. As I said, my perception is that anyone else in opposition to the initiative is either an intentional or unintentional shill. Edited August 6, 2009 by gaia.plateau

[gaia.plateau]

Could a mod please make the following edit for me:

The offer behooves all who take it up in the very long term = better gas mileage

And then delete this post? Thanks a bunch. Edited August 6, 2009 by gaia.plateau

[Sonthert]

Orwellian Headline on the L.A. Times: Tuesday, August 4th, 2009:

"Clunkers Credited for Big July Sales"

"Washington's $1-Billion 'Cash for Clunkers Program' is getting credit for giving automakers, including Ford Motor Co., a huges sales boost in July."

A graph accompanies the article, showing the change in auto sales between July, 2008 and July, 2009.

All Sales [Of automobiles] -12.2%
Subaru +34.2%
Hyundai +11.9%
Kia +4.7%
Ford +1.6%
Volkswagen +.7%
Chysler -9.4%
Toyota -11.4%
Honda -17.3%
GM -18.9%
Nissan -24.6%

Wow. Thats one billion dollars of taxpayers money to get a...12.2% drop-off in automobile sales. Sounds like it was money well spent.

Or people who were going to buy a car anyways cashed in. Whoo-who...go Washington!

I should just add that except for Ford, the four smallest manufacturers, in terms of sales, were Volkswagen, Subaru, Kia and Hyundai (from lowest sales to most sales). So small increases in sales will reflect as large percentage increases. The one that really sticks out is the 12.2% drop in auto sales in July, 2009, based on July, 2008.

[Svaals]

Obviously $1B is not going to have that drastic of an effect on auto sales when you compare it to a year ago. In July of last year, the depth of the recession was really unknown and the jobs market was a hell of a lot better than it is today.

A more significant figure would be the change in auto sales since right before the bill was introduced, around April, I believe.

[gaia.plateau]

Orwellian Headline on the L.A. Times: Tuesday, August 4th, 2009:

"Clunkers Credited for Big July Sales"

"Washington's $1-Billion 'Cash for Clunkers Program' is getting credit for giving automakers, including Ford Motor Co., a huges sales boost in July."

A graph accompanies the article, showing the change in auto sales between July, 2008 and July, 2009.

All Sales [Of automobiles] -12.2%
Subaru +34.2%
Hyundai +11.9%
Kia +4.7%
Ford +1.6%
Volkswagen +.7%
Chysler -9.4%
Toyota -11.4%
Honda -17.3%
GM -18.9%
Nissan -24.6%

Wow. Thats one billion dollars of taxpayers money to get a...12.2% drop-off in automobile sales. Sounds like it was money well spent.

Or people who were going to buy a car anyways cashed in. Whoo-who...go Washington!

I should just add that except for Ford, the four smallest manufacturers, in terms of sales, were Volkswagen, Subaru, Kia and Hyundai (from lowest sales to most sales). So small increases in sales will reflect as large percentage increases. The one that really sticks out is the 12.2% drop in auto sales in July, 2009, based on July, 2008.

You're comparing pre-recession (officially), pre-auto crisis sales against post ones, that's not a very responsible analysis Of course there's going to be a decrease. Look at Spring-June sales vs late July/August sales for an accurate result.

[Sonthert]

Thats true. I'm not denying it...but they didn't offer statistics to back up that assertion, the only comparative statistics they provided were for that period and they were talking about Ford's 1.4% increase like it was huge...I'm not saying that the increases weren't big (or that they were), just saying that the article had no statistics to back up their assertions. There was a chart that showed sales in July and sales for 2009 (YTD), but those statistics lacked comparison or scale of past sales. I was claiming it was Orwellian because they were making claims with BS statistics and the main data showed the opposite...Like "Chocolate ration shows huge increase from 50g to 30g"

If you see what I'm saying.

[gaia.plateau]

Are statistics really available yet though? I mean, you'd need to get sales figures from every car company for at least several months before the implementation of the initiative, and it's still going on isn't it? Even then, there would need to be quite a bit of control data to show that increases were caused directly from this initiative, and even then you would need to have numerous samples from the post-initiative period which do not yet exist, and even then it would still be redundant because boosting car sales is far from this initiative's primary purpose.

I was claiming it was Orwellian because they were making claims with BS statistics and the main data showed the opposite...Like "Chocolate ration shows huge increase from 50g to 30g"

If you see what I'm saying.

But this is only true for anyone who decides that pre-recession, pre-crisis data is legitimate as a comparison to post-recession, post-crisis data, otherwise there is no 'main data'.

Further... has your administration actually made claims? With statistics? Or anything? My understanding was that all this was coming from third-party sources like media organizations. Edited August 8, 2009 by gaia.plateau

[Rani]

I just keep laughting at the attitude about this. See, I'm substantially older than 90% of you. So I've been through some "stuff" in my life. Something would come along from the goverment, from the boss, whatever, and "somebody who knows" is always the voice of doom. It's not going to work, it's bad, it's this, it's that...... Guess what? The voice of doom is almost always wrong. People like to believe they're the ones with the information, but unless someone is the person actually processing the paperwork, they're just making assumptions based on rumor and bad information. The people who really know, don't talk about it, because that's how they got into a position of control - by keeping their mouth shut. Isn't that the same way urban legends get started?

Once upon a time I bought into all of it myself. Gossiped, passed allong the information from the "source" who knew everything. And in almost every single instance I ended up being part of the group who was wrong because it never turned out the way the voice of doom predicted. Neither will this.

As I got older, I started noticing the trend of the predictions and how wrong they were time after time. So now, although I may have a personal opinion on something, I try to wait around for the actual result. Remember all the "experts" claiming everything would halt at midnight 1/1/2000? Gee, ya think maybe the know-it-alls were wrong?

'Rani

[Tyler]

This just in: 2B more approved for the program yet NO dealership in the country has seen a dime, but in order to qualify for reimburstment, they have to sell now and collect later, if they sell more than money is available then the dealerships bite the bullet and are SOL. Sounds like a fail plan to me.

[clibinarius]

QUOTE (BohoWildChild @ Aug 8 2009, 08:39 PM) The voice of doom is almost always wrong.

I STRONGLY disagree with this statement; the voice of doom has been wrong IN THE WEST, really, since WWII. This causes another problem; most Americans (ESPECIALLY baby boomers) don't know genuine hardship (and if they do, they don't know prosperity).

There's been no major wars, but the Baby Boomers THINK Vietnam was (Compare Vietnam to Korea). There's been no major depression, but the Baby Boomers THINK the 1970s were. We have a huge debt, but surely we can't turn into Iceland, can we?

Here's the big difference, and its geared towards the Baby Boomers: My generation has to PAY for YOUR tax cuts and YOUR debt. But you can say gloom and doom is always wrong, right?

Its not that I'm a pessimist, or a "realist" though I am. Humanity will soldier on, and I honestly think (contrary to most of the world) America will emerge from this in a more powerful position than it has been in for the last decade. I, realistically, probably won't suffer too much. But I graduated college into the worst job market since the Great Depression (if you read the department of labor statistics unemployment is actually 17%, not 9.4%). And its people MY AGE who aren't getting jobs since you need 10 to 15 years of experience to get any good job (thus, fired older employees can get jobs easier, but on top of it, people who are young and especially minorities or uneducated are really getting the shaft). You're entering a very very dark chapter here of minorities and youth with much less hope than the glories of "Woodstock" here.

This isn't gloom and doom, this is reality. In Japan, no youth are getting jobs, and haven't been since the 1990s, and we've basically pulled out all the stops to enter the same economic system of no-job creation, no-job loss once you have stabilization. That the current system is over in Japan for all intents and purposes isn't that much of a secret, and you can even find people in the news talking about it, [i]in America[/i] (if you look). Iceland is broke. Hungary is broke. Spain and China's subprime crisis is worse than here. Russia's bartering again and spent all their metal reserves backing their currency. This "Pessimism" and "doom" of mine is basically that policy makers have to acknowledge what's going on in the world and stop pretending things are going back to the unsustainable-upper income tax holes that were there before (which screwed most taxpaying Americans no matter how rich or how poor), corporate welfare, money printing, pork policies out there. Bush was screaming softly about tax reform at times; Obama's screamed about it too; no one's willing to do anything. High oil prices? Screw regulation that worked between the 1930s-1980s. That stuff only slowed down growth! Allow infinite deleveraging-the fed will print enough money to cover your losses! Conservatives, now is YOUR chance to let the free market (in which you can pull money out of thin air, of course) reign supreme. Liberals, now is YOUR chance to make sure EVERYONE gets EVERYTHING. And everybody's happy.

We need to, as a worldwide society, admit our finances were based on a pyramid scheme of debts and growth. Only then can we actually create a sustainable economy. And lord, we need to abandon that generation of the 1960s: Free love, when it was wanted. My generation now has all sorts of diseases to worry about as a result. Also, to that 1960s liberal generation: Thanks for Ronald Reagan. It was really nice of you to become 1980s conservatives-without repealing any of the drug laws, mind you, that YOU violated. Oh and now? My generation, which doesn't see any reason NHT should be illegal, that doesn't have access to healthcare that you guys had...we'd really really like to not have to pay for your 401ks that went broke. Seriously.

What's the point of this rant? I can't stand older people who say gloom and doom are always wrong and that they've seen more. I can stomach the partisans. I can't stomach the "I'm older than you so I know more" chants cause last I checked, my generation didn't cause any of this, my generation can't get jobs, my generation can't get healthcare, my generation can't pay for energy, my generation can't pay for education, my generation can't really afford to have children in fact. YOUR generation was just fine; in fact, my generation in the bailout of the 401ks is insuring that your generation retires at the same age as people 70 years ago, when life expectancy was much lower (my generation will probably NOT have the same luxury, nor really should any generation have that luxury...) and thus having a much longer (and by extension more costly) retirement. It isn't conservatives who screwed everything up; lots of conservative governments have existed in history without destroying themselves. Nor was it liberals, because the same applies.

I would add, never once did I hear a baby boomer politician EVERY apologize for anything and admit mistake unless they were recently on trial (Such as Bill Clinton). Obama's screwed some stuff up thus far and not apologized. Bush still hasn't apologized for anything. Clinton only seemed to apologize for getting caught...

So can YOUR generation that's "seen" things (except not any major major wars, nor any major starvations, disease outbreaks, or major Natural disasters except hurricane Katrina, which, mind you, YOUR GENERATION STILL HASN'T BOTHERED TO MANAGE OR PAY FOR OR REPAIR), can they actually ADMIT things might be a little screwed up? Can they actually start trying to correct things? Cause, you know, I would like to be able to live to the time I'm 80 and retire maybe for the last two years of my life...it'd be the least they could do...

Ah screw it, they won't, they'll just print more money for themselves. Darn, I'm starting to sound like a revolutionary...sucks.

/incoherent rant Edited January 4, 2010 by delSol_si
NHT

[clibinarius]

By "worldwide" society, I don't mean I'm an internationalist. I mean that the entire world must look at its models on the economy and realize-not just us-EVERYONE is screwing up (even if they arrogantly think-and I can name a lot of countries who arrogantly think-that they're not [Iceland was one such country]). If the world doesn't as a whole do that, one country will start to do that by itself, and unilateral pulling out of trade agreements often results in a war down the line...historically speaking, that is.

[clibinarius]

Oh, and last reply (How I wish I could edit my posts...)

I'm aware of Hurricane Andrew, which wasn't as bad as Katrina, and managed by a WWII vet, not a baby boomer.

And the natural disasters have been worse lately. FEMA screwed the pooch on midwestern flooding, which believed me, helped Obama win by a higher margin than people realize at the moment (it got Obama Indiana, which never votes for Democrats for president). It probably increased the victory he had in Ohio, too.

Hmm, that story sort of fell out of the news. I really wonder if anyone has taken care of it yet? Or are things still in ruin and disrepair?...

Long Island and New England are well overdue for a hurricane.

California is overdue for another major earthquake in some parts.

Tokyo is almost 20 years overdue for a major earthquake...

Hmm, am I optimistic we'll do well when these disasters hit? Well, since we haven't mismanaged things for a few weeks...wait, swine flu was mismanaged...

Hmm...

/incoherent rant, no, seriously.

[gaia.plateau]

It's not going to work, it's bad, it's this, it's that...... Guess what? The voice of doom is almost always wrong.

The world is running critically low on vital resources, including oxygen and water, and at our current rate of consumption we can expect to be completely out of water within thirty years, unless revolutionary new purification technology is invented.

Carbon emissions, either natural or man-made, are increasingly destabilizing the atmosphere and our climate. We can expect the current trend of extraordinary weather, which has included numerous hurricanes, to continue intensifying over the course of this next century.

Most DOOMingly, we have tremendously overshot our sustainable harvesting of natural resources, especially in the areas of deforestation, fishing and farming. It is extremely probably that we have already pushed our environment past the point of reversibility, and if we haven't than it is ubiquitously believed by the international scientific community that we will within five to ten years. In short, our ecosystem is going to collapse on us in our lifetimes, and the prospects of it continuing to support significant numbers of human life afterward are pessimistic.

The current state system, with everyone fending for themselves and refusing to put themselves at a disadvantage to their neighbour, absolutely precludes us to do anything about these environmental DOOMs.

For all of human history, but exponentially so since the Second World War, we have seen cultures of violence cultivating in many parts of the world. Western imperial actions have historically created many of these, and exacerbated virtually all of them. These cultures are characterized by a national or communal ideology or worldview that violence is a viable solution to life's problems, and we know that they take generations to fix. Places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Rwanda, Burma, Sudan, North Korea, Sri Lanka and etcetera will very likely each take a hundred years and trillions of dollars to reach peace. In the mean time, countries like these are havens for Informal Violence Organizations, also known as "Terrorist Groups" which are getting closer to nuclear capabilities all the time, and more DOOMingly they are getting increasingly more legitimacy amongst populations for the use of force.

Israel continues to waver between systematically exterminating Palestinians and waging outright war against them, nudging countries like Iran, Pakistan and Russia closer and closer to compelled involvement. Tied to Israel is its ally the United States, and holding great geopolitical stake in the region are Russia and China. Of all these actors, the only definite non-nuclear power is Palestine. Currently Western democracies are straining every political and economic resource to keep this from boiling over, but there are too many balls in the air - if a single one drops, nuclear war becomes far more likely on a global scale than it was in 1962.

The American Empire has been waning since 9/11 drove its position in the world from exploitative to victimizing, with critically important external elements such as international legitimacy, military capability, and trading power rapidly decreasing. Internally socioeconomic infrastructure is crumbling as the foundations of any economy and society; healthcare and education, dwindle further and further down the index of nations. Foreign debts are astronomic and continue to skyrocket. Recently the world's hegemon, a singular police power in an otherwise anarchical global system, there is no one now to take its place. The transition from a unipolar world to a multipolar one will inevitably and necessarily create countless power vacuums, on the global and regional scales both. We may very well be entering the most anarchical time in history since the fall of Rome.

Again, the selfish, national interests and ambitions pursued by human civilizations cause us to exploit, kill, and conquer one another and this is preventative for our resolving any of these impending DOOMs. Further, these problems are far too ingrained in history, in culture and in national identities to have simple or quick solutions. The only foreseeable measures against these DOOMs are extreme systematic shifts.

Jesus Christ's return is close at hand and all of the good people are going to be taken up to heaven and all of us sinners will be left down here to our orgies. BWAHAHAHA DOOM.

[gaia.plateau]

I think I may have gotten a little carried away there. Um.. sorry.