'bamanomics Strikes Again!

[Svaals]

And in almost every single instance I ended up being part of the group who was wrong because it never turned out the way the voice of doom predicted. Neither will this.

The difference between the current "doom and gloom" outlook and that of the past is where it's coming from. Conspiracy theorists, investors, pundits, and fundamentalists have predicted the end of days or the downfall of civilization, and have always been wrong for one reason or another. Now it is well educated scientists warning us about the damage being done to our planet, and the doom and gloomers of yesterday are sitting back and saying "These scientists are full of it, everything is perfect!! Just keep spending money and everything will be all right."

I have a lot of faith in this administration, though, because of the money they have spent on science. Perhaps the economy will bounce back enough to validate Obama's efforts, and he can use his credibility to hustle science on a public that seems to ignore it.

[Vampy6997]

Here's the big difference, and its geared towards the Baby Boomers: My generation has to PAY for YOUR tax cuts and YOUR debt. But you can say gloom and doom is always wrong, right?
-----
And its people MY AGE who aren't getting jobs since you need 10 to 15 years of experience to get any good job (thus, fired older employees can get jobs easier, but on top of it, people who are young and especially minorities or uneducated are really getting the shaft).
-----
/incoherent rant

+1
You're not incoherent, and I agreed with a lot of what you said.

[Rani]

Jesus guys, let up on me! I wasn't talking about the world situation. I was talking about that one lone person who every time a new policy arises, sits around telling everyone how they know it's not going to work, etc. You know those people right? The ones who always, always think they know how bad this or that is going to turn out. I was speaking about one policy, and the prevailing and often wrong opinions of "I know someone who knows".

As far as the world situation is concerned, that's a whole long conversation in itself that I unfortunately don't have time to get into at this moment. But I will say this about a few of my core beliefs......

1) The United States government has had a very bad attitude towards the rest of the world for a long time. "Holier than thou, our way has to be right and no, what you think and want doesn't count." In my view, that's a very bad thing, because even if you're the superpower with the super influence in the world, building in dependence of other nations on yourself is guaranteed to bring everyone down when you hit one of the cyclic events that are guaranteed to happen. I do not approve of the way my government views the rest of the world and because we built in that dependent the entire world is crippled at the moment.

2) Things are not as bad as they have been through history, nor are they as bad as they could get. No, I didn't live through the depression of the 1930's, but my grandparents did and were incredibly molded by having done so. People starved to death in the streets during that period all over the world for lack of food. That lesson is partly why we have so many government subsidies available to us in a great portion of the world. We are very, very lucky isn't not as bad as it has been.

3) Bad times are good for us in the long run. Too many times we are complacent and believe the wrold owes us a living. College students have long expected to get their education and immediately walk into their dream job and start moving up the corporate ladder immediately with very little real effort. Your grandparents and parents sweated every single day to get what our young take for granted. Now when you get those jobs they're going to actually cherish them and be more determinded to make a positive contribution to the company and it's growth. The US thought it was untouchable. 9/11 let us know that wasn't true. So many Americans who had never traveled abroad believed we were loved in the world. Surprise! Nobody gets up in the morning and says "I'm going to hate the US today, no reason, just feel like it." What are we doing that causes so much hatred against us and what can we do better to be a better member of the world team? It started people thinking and it started the voice of change. In the long run, it seems it will be a positive step in US evolution to becoming a world team member.

4) I'm a Buddhist. And part of the unemployed in our country right now. Does anyone really think I support the tennets of conspicious consumption? But I'm also a realist. Our world is dyiing. Just as it has been form the moment of it's birth. I don't support rushing it's demise and I think it's a damn shame with our scientific advancements we can't do things better - like hydrogen engines in our vehicles for example, but no matter how much we slow the demise of our planet it's still eventually going to burn out, along with our sun that's already through a portion of it's lifespan otherwise it would be a yellow dwarf. I'd just like to see Earth hang in there until sun goes nova, but I doubt it will. It is what it is, we just have to be cognizant of doing what we can do for future generations. So eventually, all of this is going to be wiped out. I'd like to see humans treating each other better, taking better care of our air, water and earth, etc., so that we live better lives until we do reach that point.

I could go on, but I think the people who know me and converse with me know where I'm coming from on these subject and more.

'Rani

[clibinarius]

Jesus guys, let up on me! I wasn't talking about the world situation. I was talking about that one lone person who every time a new policy arises, sits around telling everyone how they know it's not going to work, etc. You know those people right? The ones who always, always think they know how bad this or that is going to turn out. I was speaking about one policy, and the prevailing and often wrong opinions of "I know someone who knows".

As far as the world situation is concerned, that's a whole long conversation in itself that I unfortunately don't have time to get into at this moment. But I will say this about a few of my core beliefs......

1) The United States government has had a very bad attitude towards the rest of the world for a long time. "Holier than thou, our way has to be right and no, what you think and want doesn't count." In my view, that's a very bad thing, because even if you're the superpower with the super influence in the world, building in dependence of other nations on yourself is guaranteed to bring everyone down when you hit one of the cyclic events that are guaranteed to happen. I do not approve of the way my government views the rest of the world and because we built in that dependent the entire world is crippled at the moment.

2) Things are not as bad as they have been through history, nor are they as bad as they could get. No, I didn't live through the depression of the 1930's, but my grandparents did and were incredibly molded by having done so. People starved to death in the streets during that period all over the world for lack of food. That lesson is partly why we have so many government subsidies available to us in a great portion of the world. We are very, very lucky isn't not as bad as it has been.

3) Bad times are good for us in the long run. Too many times we are complacent and believe the wrold owes us a living. College students have long expected to get their education and immediately walk into their dream job and start moving up the corporate ladder immediately with very little real effort. Your grandparents and parents sweated every single day to get what our young take for granted. Now when you get those jobs they're going to actually cherish them and be more determinded to make a positive contribution to the company and it's growth. The US thought it was untouchable. 9/11 let us know that wasn't true. So many Americans who had never traveled abroad believed we were loved in the world. Surprise! Nobody gets up in the morning and says "I'm going to hate the US today, no reason, just feel like it." What are we doing that causes so much hatred against us and what can we do better to be a better member of the world team? It started people thinking and it started the voice of change. In the long run, it seems it will be a positive step in US evolution to becoming a world team member.

4) I'm a Buddhist. And part of the unemployed in our country right now. Does anyone really think I support the tennets of conspicious consumption? But I'm also a realist. Our world is dyiing. Just as it has been form the moment of it's birth. I don't support rushing it's demise and I think it's a damn shame with our scientific advancements we can't do things better - like hydrogen engines in our vehicles for example, but no matter how much we slow the demise of our planet it's still eventually going to burn out, along with our sun that's already through a portion of it's lifespan otherwise it would be a yellow dwarf. I'd just like to see Earth hang in there until sun goes nova, but I doubt it will. It is what it is, we just have to be cognizant of doing what we can do for future generations. So eventually, all of this is going to be wiped out. I'd like to see humans treating each other better, taking better care of our air, water and earth, etc., so that we live better lives until we do reach that point.

I could go on, but I think the people who know me and converse with me know where I'm coming from on these subject and more.

'Rani

Then I apologize; I get way too irritated whenever I hear anyone not of my generation saying things will be fine. I mean, yeah, they probably will be, but...for reasons listed in my rant...its kind of to my ears "I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm from a more privileged generation."

Of course, me thinking that's probably not fair to all people, since not everyone has consistently voted poorly, for one thing, and a lot of people were helpless-outside of the ballot box-to these events. So I apologize since you didn't deserve my knee jerk reaction (although I don't apologize for my sentiments beyond that they were directed at you). You didn't cause my problems.

[Rani]

Then I apologize; I get way too irritated whenever I hear anyone not of my generation saying things will be fine. I mean, yeah, they probably will be, but...for reasons listed in my rant...its kind of to my ears "I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm from a more privileged generation."

Of course, me thinking that's probably not fair to all people, since not everyone has consistently voted poorly, for one thing, and a lot of people were helpless-outside of the ballot box-to these events. So I apologize since you didn't deserve my knee jerk reaction (although I don't apologize for my sentiments beyond that they were directed at you). You didn't cause my problems.

Apology accepted of course and no real offense was taken. Things are in bad shape and the inability for everyone to see a clear future instills the fear that vents in frustration. And I know it doesn't help for people to voice what seems like platitudes. If it helps any, they really are voicing experience. Just as you eventually will having survived this bad period. Everything in creation comes in cycles. It was really, really bad in the 1930's, got really good about 10 years ago and is back in the pits now. It will come up again. But even though I've lived long enough to witness some of the cycles, I still have a hard time keeping my morale up while we're down here.

I support Obama. Not because I think he's the 8th wonder of the modern world, not because I think he's going to do everything right and not because I expect him to fix everything. I support him because he actually seems to give a damn. And I can't remember a single president of either party in my lifetime since JFK who actually gave a damn, about their own people let alone the rest of the inhabitants of the world. Politics has become a business and that is so wrong on so many levels I can't even scratch the surface. But when I get really down about it, I remind myself of those cycles. The Roman Empire was the largest and most adanced government of it's time. It fell. Eventually so will every other government including the US government through sheer weight of it's own deeds. In the meantime I think we just all have to do the best we can do is help each other and be kind to each other and the earth we share. We haven't exactly got anyplace else do go, do we?

'Rani

[Tyler]

The Roman Empire fell because of Christianity and lead poisoning :-P

[Svaals]

Jesus guys, let up on me!

Sorry, that wasn't really directed at you. I just used your comment as a segway to rant about the scientific illiteracy in this country, and the general mistrust of scientists. It just irks me to the bone that some people in this country are more likely to listen to Bill O'Reily on global warming than the entire scientific community.

[gaia.plateau]

The Roman Empire fell because of Christianity and lead poisoning :-P

Narp, it fell because of wine.

[Zyram]

On a side note here, the whole Dems vs. Republican battle is fucking lame. You're arguing which side of the quarter is better.. Who gives a fuck, its still the same quarter. You really think anything would be different if McCain won? Its just a show, for us to watch, pick sides, and argue amongst ourselves..

The Presidency is a puppet show, as is the whole political system. The people in charge will continue to do whatever they want, regardless of who they pick as our "leader".

I mean, seriously.. Anyone the media was propping up for us to vote for, should be the last people we voted for. There's a reason why candidates like Ron Paul were barred from debates, and never given any airtime. Oh well.. enjoy your show.. I'll see you in FEMA interment camps one day if you live near VA.

Well said man, well said. I guess when change is the motto, it means giving our change to special interests, this is no matter which "party" is in power. People need to realize that dems and reps are both lamers and they need to agitate to get other groups in who have fresh ideas. The two parties have their "wedge issues" which they use to make believe they are different, but on anything that is truly important well... it's the same ol' same ol'. gov't shouldn't have anything to do with abortion or stem cell research or gay marriage, but it's a dog and pony show to keep you from asking about monetary policy, foreign policy, and so many other areas that both parties are exactly the same in that matter so much more than the "wedge issues" that are flaunted to the voters to "energize the base".

About health care... do you think that the politicians will be using american hospitals and medical care if this happens? No, they will be flown all over the world, on our dime, to get the best healthcare available. Ask a military vet how great their government run healthcare is, and hope you don't get punched. I'm not a vet but I have friends and family who are. Don't watch TV news and say you're informed, do some digging and find some truth elsewhere, or you're only hearing what politicians want you to hear.

-Z

[clibinarius]

Then I apologize; I get way too irritated whenever I hear anyone not of my generation saying things will be fine. I mean, yeah, they probably will be, but...for reasons listed in my rant...its kind of to my ears "I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm from a more privileged generation."

Of course, me thinking that's probably not fair to all people, since not everyone has consistently voted poorly, for one thing, and a lot of people were helpless-outside of the ballot box-to these events. So I apologize since you didn't deserve my knee jerk reaction (although I don't apologize for my sentiments beyond that they were directed at you). You didn't cause my problems.

Apology accepted of course and no real offense was taken. Things are in bad shape and the inability for everyone to see a clear future instills the fear that vents in frustration. And I know it doesn't help for people to voice what seems like platitudes. If it helps any, they really are voicing experience. Just as you eventually will having survived this bad period. Everything in creation comes in cycles. It was really, really bad in the 1930's, got really good about 10 years ago and is back in the pits now. It will come up again. But even though I've lived long enough to witness some of the cycles, I still have a hard time keeping my morale up while we're down here.

I support Obama. Not because I think he's the 8th wonder of the modern world, not because I think he's going to do everything right and not because I expect him to fix everything. I support him because he actually seems to give a damn. And I can't remember a single president of either party in my lifetime since JFK who actually gave a damn, about their own people let alone the rest of the inhabitants of the world. Politics has become a business and that is so wrong on so many levels I can't even scratch the surface. But when I get really down about it, I remind myself of those cycles. The Roman Empire was the largest and most adanced government of it's time. It fell. Eventually so will every other government including the US government through sheer weight of it's own deeds. In the meantime I think we just all have to do the best we can do is help each other and be kind to each other and the earth we share. We haven't exactly got anyplace else do go, do we?

'Rani

Ah! That's a very stereotypical sticking point for me on the generational gap. Everyone older talks about how JFK was a great president. But what exactly did he do? (If you're seriously going to answer this, just be warned, its not so easy; I have a lot of prepared responses to a lot of his policies, but I've never actually met anyone who can list his policies in too much detail).

I'd be much happier with a president like LBJ...but no one remembers him outrageously well-but if it weren't for him, we'd still have segregation, and no social safety net beyond the New Deal (which is over 75 years old...). The fact his reputation's destroyed because he didn't have JFK's charm, but had JFK's war, is a crime that this country's yet to recover from...

[tinyj316]

Ah! That's a very stereotypical sticking point for me on the generational gap. Everyone older talks about how JFK was a great president. But what exactly did he do? (If you're seriously going to answer this, just be warned, its not so easy; I have a lot of prepared responses to a lot of his policies, but I've never actually met anyone who can list his policies in too much detail).

I'd be much happier with a president like LBJ...but no one remembers him outrageously well-but if it weren't for him, we'd still have segregation, and no social safety net beyond the New Deal (which is over 75 years old...). The fact his reputation's destroyed because he didn't have JFK's charm, but had JFK's war, is a crime that this country's yet to recover from...

I don't know that JFK actually did that much that was of a benefit to the country, other than the fact that he was charismatic, sincere, and every John Q American could relate to him on some level...(The men wanted to be him, women wanted to be with him...) I would assume that was what Rani was tring to get at...

Personally, I would like to think of Obama as a hybrid of FDR, LBJ, JFK, and Samuel L Jackson

[gaia.plateau]

Personally, I would like to think of Obama as a hybrid of FDR, LBJ, JFK, and Samuel L Jackson

Do you mean his personality?

Honestly, his policies resemble those of George W. Bush more than any other leader. Edited August 10, 2009 by gaia.plateau

[tinyj316]

Personally, I would like to think of Obama as a hybrid of FDR, LBJ, JFK, and Samuel L Jackson

Do you mean his personality?

Honestly, his policies resemble those of George W. Bush more than any other leader.

Yes, personality/idealism...

[clibinarius]

Ah! That's a very stereotypical sticking point for me on the generational gap. Everyone older talks about how JFK was a great president. But what exactly did he do? (If you're seriously going to answer this, just be warned, its not so easy; I have a lot of prepared responses to a lot of his policies, but I've never actually met anyone who can list his policies in too much detail).

I'd be much happier with a president like LBJ...but no one remembers him outrageously well-but if it weren't for him, we'd still have segregation, and no social safety net beyond the New Deal (which is over 75 years old...). The fact his reputation's destroyed because he didn't have JFK's charm, but had JFK's war, is a crime that this country's yet to recover from...

I don't know that JFK actually did that much that was of a benefit to the country, other than the fact that he was charismatic, sincere, and every John Q American could relate to him on some level...(The men wanted to be him, women wanted to be with him...) I would assume that was what Rani was tring to get at...

Personally, I would like to think of Obama as a hybrid of FDR, LBJ, JFK, and Samuel L Jackson

Kennedy? Sincere?

Please tell me you're being sarcastic...

I mean, yes, Bush came off as sincere, someone you could relate to, and had the charisma of a very popular frat boy-its a form of charisma, even if one not typically associated with a political leader...Of course, critics of Bush are of the point of view that he wasn't sincere, and besides, who could relate to the son of a patrician, millionaire family?

I seldom agree with Gaia, and I'm not sure what he means, but if he says JFK reminds him of Bush, I agree, and if he says Obama reminds him of Bush, I agree.

[Svaals]

I definitely agree with you that LBJ does not get enough credit, mainly because he is closely associated with the conflict in Vietnam.

What was great about JFK was not any single policy, but the charisma itself. Really, though the President does hold a great deal of power politically, the American people have much more power if they can be motivated to action and progress. That's something a charismatic leader can do.

[Rani]

Then I apologize; I get way too irritated whenever I hear anyone not of my generation saying things will be fine. I mean, yeah, they probably will be, but...for reasons listed in my rant...its kind of to my ears "I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm from a more privileged generation."

Of course, me thinking that's probably not fair to all people, since not everyone has consistently voted poorly, for one thing, and a lot of people were helpless-outside of the ballot box-to these events. So I apologize since you didn't deserve my knee jerk reaction (although I don't apologize for my sentiments beyond that they were directed at you). You didn't cause my problems.

Apology accepted of course and no real offense was taken. Things are in bad shape and the inability for everyone to see a clear future instills the fear that vents in frustration. And I know it doesn't help for people to voice what seems like platitudes. If it helps any, they really are voicing experience. Just as you eventually will having survived this bad period. Everything in creation comes in cycles. It was really, really bad in the 1930's, got really good about 10 years ago and is back in the pits now. It will come up again. But even though I've lived long enough to witness some of the cycles, I still have a hard time keeping my morale up while we're down here.

I support Obama. Not because I think he's the 8th wonder of the modern world, not because I think he's going to do everything right and not because I expect him to fix everything. I support him because he actually seems to give a damn. And I can't remember a single president of either party in my lifetime since JFK who actually gave a damn, about their own people let alone the rest of the inhabitants of the world. Politics has become a business and that is so wrong on so many levels I can't even scratch the surface. But when I get really down about it, I remind myself of those cycles. The Roman Empire was the largest and most adanced government of it's time. It fell. Eventually so will every other government including the US government through sheer weight of it's own deeds. In the meantime I think we just all have to do the best we can do is help each other and be kind to each other and the earth we share. We haven't exactly got anyplace else do go, do we?

'Rani

Ah! That's a very stereotypical sticking point for me on the generational gap. Everyone older talks about how JFK was a great president. But what exactly did he do? (If you're seriously going to answer this, just be warned, its not so easy; I have a lot of prepared responses to a lot of his policies, but I've never actually met anyone who can list his policies in too much detail).

I'd be much happier with a president like LBJ...but no one remembers him outrageously well-but if it weren't for him, we'd still have segregation, and no social safety net beyond the New Deal (which is over 75 years old...). The fact his reputation's destroyed because he didn't have JFK's charm, but had JFK's war, is a crime that this country's yet to recover from...

I never said JFK was wonderful and did great things. I said he was the last one in my lifetime who appeared to give a damn. I was in the cradle at the time of his death, but I met his mother Rose on several occasions. I believe he actually gave a damn, whether it resulted in positive action or not is an entire other debate.

'Rani

[Rani]

I definitely agree with you that LBJ does not get enough credit, mainly because he is closely associated with the conflict in Vietnam.

What was great about JFK was not any single policy, but the charisma itself. Really, though the President does hold a great deal of power politically, the American people have much more power if they can be motivated to action and progress. That's something a charismatic leader can do.

Very, very important point - and very, very true.

'Rani

[clibinarius]

I definitely agree with you that LBJ does not get enough credit, mainly because he is closely associated with the conflict in Vietnam.

What was great about JFK was not any single policy, but the charisma itself. Really, though the President does hold a great deal of power politically, the American people have much more power if they can be motivated to action and progress. That's something a charismatic leader can do.

I wrote a long rant here about people who used their charisma for evil-but aside from charisma being neutral, I think change comes from the good in followers, almost never from their leaders (though leaders often think they're doing good things, no matter how evil or corrupt or good or honest), but I decided to delete it and ask this simple question:

If charisma is so important, and the "want" to make the world a better place, can we make Ryan Seacrest president? Cause...he seems like a fairly cheerful individual on TV and he hosts a show with the name "American" in it...I mean, if that's all we need to have a great president, let's try it, no?

[Svaals]

I decided to delete it and ask this simple question:

If charisma is so important, and the "want" to make the world a better place, can we make Ryan Seacrest president? Cause...he seems like a fairly cheerful individual on TV and he hosts a show with the name "American" in it...I mean, if that's all we need to have a great president, let's try it, no?

Charisma is not all-important, but it is important. While Seacrest has a type of likability, he does not have the charisma of a leader. Emcee of America? Maybe. President of the US? Probably not.

Charisma has done a lot for the presidents of the past, and I don't think anyone can argue that it is not important. In a democratic political system, you're probably not going far without a fair bit of it.

[clibinarius]

I decided to delete it and ask this simple question:

If charisma is so important, and the "want" to make the world a better place, can we make Ryan Seacrest president? Cause...he seems like a fairly cheerful individual on TV and he hosts a show with the name "American" in it...I mean, if that's all we need to have a great president, let's try it, no?

Charisma is not all-important, but it is important. While Seacrest has a type of likability, he does not have the charisma of a leader. Emcee of America? Maybe. President of the US? Probably not.

Charisma has done a lot for the presidents of the past, and I don't think anyone can argue that it is not important. In a democratic political system, you're probably not going far without a fair bit of it.

By that standard, Hitler was a great leader, no? He was elected in a democratic system!

In ANY system, the leader must have a certain amount of charisma. Its not important because EVERYONE in power typically has some.

Its almost always not leaders who make the world a better place. Its a majority of people trying to be good that do. When we give leaders the credit the people deserve, that's when tyranny starts and we lose faith in ourselves. It is at that place that people forget that their leaders are nothing without them, and that the leaders thus work for the people who follow them. There are occasionally good leaders, and they are the stuff legends are made out of (Cincinatus). Of course, the best leaders aren't identified until long after they're gone.

JFK was proclaimed great while he was still moribund. That alone should make the case suspect, since unlike Lincoln, he had accomplished nothing.

[Svaals]

Its almost always not leaders who make the world a better place. Its a majority of people trying to be good that do. When we give leaders the credit the people deserve, that's when tyranny starts and we lose faith in ourselves. It is at that place that people forget that their leaders are nothing without them, and that the leaders thus work for the people who follow them.

I think you missed the point I was making. A good leader can inspire a people to improve themselves, and can set goals for a people to come together and achieve. I never said that the people should not receive credit for making the world a better place. I think you're putting words in my mouth when we're essentially in agreement.

*And yes, since you mention it, Hitler was a charismatic leader. When Germany was economically crippled from the treaty of Versailles and depression of the 30s, he was the leader that emerged as a "friend of the German people". However, the goals he set while mobilizing the people were malevolent and led to genocide, war, tyranny, etc. So yeah, I'd say Hitler had great leadership skills with particularly devious goals and a totally screwed ideology.

[clibinarius]

*And yes, since you mention it, Hitler was a charismatic leader. When Germany was economically crippled from the treaty of Versailles and depression of the 30s, he was the leader that emerged as a "friend of the German people". However, the goals he set while mobilizing the people were malevolent and led to genocide, war, tyranny, etc. So yeah, I'd say Hitler had great leadership skills with particularly devious goals and a totally screwed ideology.

I didn't miss your point. I'm saying its neutral. This demonstrates that charisma, if it is actually powerful, can be quite bad. And saying someone is good because they have a neutral trait...is horribly wrong. Edited August 11, 2009 by clibinarius

[Svaals]

*And yes, since you mention it, Hitler was a charismatic leader. When Germany was economically crippled from the treaty of Versailles and depression of the 30s, he was the leader that emerged as a "friend of the German people". However, the goals he set while mobilizing the people were malevolent and led to genocide, war, tyranny, etc. So yeah, I'd say Hitler had great leadership skills with particularly devious goals and a totally screwed ideology.

I didn't miss your point. I'm saying its neutral. This demonstrates that charisma, if it is actually powerful, can be quite bad. And saying someone is good because they have a neutral trait...is horribly wrong.

JFK was not good only because he had charisma, but because he inspired people to do good. He set goals for the nation that required a great deal of scientific progress. Those goals were achieved. Yes, charisma is a neutral trait, but it's a skill that can be used for good or evil. I would say that JFK made good use of that skill.

[tinyj316]

Ryan Seacrest can't be president until December 24, 2009... when he turns 35...and when he does... SEACREST/ABDUL 2012!!!!!

[clibinarius]

JFK was not good only because he had charisma, but because he inspired people to do good. He set goals for the nation that required a great deal of scientific progress. Those goals were achieved. Yes, charisma is a neutral trait, but it's a skill that can be used for good or evil. I would say that JFK made good use of that skill.

Um, how?

Mind you, the Moon was a great speech. Too bad it was an Eisenhower policy that was there before JFK was president.

Oh, he inspired people to cheat and steal to win elections another step in the modern country, which would be Nixons undoing...

He inspired people to more cronyism by appointing his family to the cabinet...

He inspired corrupt rich people to donate more money in return for greater favors than normal (Kennedy was the first supply sider, which most people forget-and there was no reason for it at that time in history).

He inspired people to build fewer schools, roads and hospitals than his predecessor...

He inspired people to die in Vietnam and kill the leadership of South Vietnam...

He inspired an embarrassing revolution in Cuba without committing, letting people get slaughtered for no reason instead of calling it off...

He inspired the Turkish Government to not trust us as much by removing the Jupiter Missiles without announcing it to our populace so he could be seen as strong in the mid term elections after the Cuban Missile Crisis as part of the bargain of the Soviets withdrawing their deterrent force...

He inspired Berliners to know that, even though we liked them and sympathized with them in America, we were too incompetent to actually prevent the Soviets from railroading them...as well as the rest of Eastern Europe...

He inspired the reality that reality doesn't matter as well as perception (Camelot)...

He inspired illegal wiretaps to be done by the FBI against activists in civil rights...

He basically destroyed the US Steel industry through threats and intimidation...

He inspired infighting against the policies he supposedly supported of LBJ, guaranteeing any "legacy" he should take credit for would never come to light...

Once again, you say Kennedy inspired people, what exactly did he inspire them to do? Cause I'm hard pressed to find one good achievement here that wasn't the result of someone else's work...I mean I can think of one, but I want to see if you can, or if you just want to say JFK was good for the sake of believing he was good... Edited August 11, 2009 by clibinarius