I'm No Longer Pessimistic On Obama; I Think He's An Idiot.

[clibinarius]

This "error" will be, in my view, worse for US foreign policy than Iraq:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/18/world/eu...tml?_r=1&hp

Now, here's the stupid:

On September 17, 1939, USSR invades Poland, wiping out the Polish strategy aimed at counter attacking the Germans in the winter and invading in 1940 (I, actually, am optimistic on the Polish strategy for resisting the Germans; I think if Russia didn't intervene, they would have beaten Germany; besides, it was the Russian invasion which caused the Polish surrender, which ended Polish home ruled Poland for 50 years).

Now look; this isn't anti-Russian sentiment coming across from me, or pro-Poland or whatever because no one in the news is talking about it: How on EARTH is pulling out of something that could be seen as protection against Russia ON THE DAY RUSSIA INVADED a good idea? Why couldn't he wait until tomorrow? Next week?

This is part of a trend in the DoS of the administration simply not noticing anything; Britain might vote conservative (Anti-American) but Obama doesn't seem to care; Japan kicked out essentially the pro-US government but Obama doesn't seem to care; Hungary didn't get their bailout from Germany and elects three neo-Nazis (Jobbik) to the EU parliament but Obama doesn't seem to care. Hell, the "Reset" button for Russia was incorrectly translated to Overcharge. What the hell is he doing? He's only better than Bush based on the fact he hasn't invaded a country...yet. The more and more I look at this foreign policy, the more I think he's going to invade Antarctica, and lose.

[clibinarius]

Note: I'm not saying whether or not I'm missile defense is a good idea. I'm simply saying the timing was beyond catastrophic.

[Rani]

Note: I'm not saying whether or not I'm missile defense is a good idea. I'm simply saying the timing was beyond catastrophic.

And Lyndon Johnson planned his daughters wedding on the anniversary of Hiroshima. It made a huge ruckus at the time. Rarely does anyone go check the historical calendar before doing this or that. Sometimes even a president can have an "oh, shit" moment. Regretable, but I think maybe the staff member who had charge of researching the date and screwed up is more the issue than Obama himself.

Come on....... You don't like the current administration. Okay, fine. Mountains out of molehills. Which I find common among his dietractors. People who dislike and distrust him are going to dig for dirt in the smallest places because there isn't anything major (yet - potentially yet) to grab onto. You think anyone on the Hill actually gave a rats ass what Clinton was doing with his cigars in the oval office. Nope..... It was nothing more than the convenient dirt they could get their hands on. Same here.

'Rani

[Tyler]

While I agree with you Boho, people did the exact same thing with Bush, just now that the tables are turned, both sides are argueing the opposite sides.

[Rani]

While I agree with you Boho, people did the exact same thing with Bush, just now that the tables are turned, both sides are argueing the opposite sides.

I think the problem is we forget that the people in power really aren't any different from ourselves as people. The do things right and they make bad choices now and then just like the rest of us. My only real complaint with Bush was that he refused to admit to either himself or the world that he could possibly be wrong. If you can't admit you're wrong you can't stop yourself continuing down a disasterous path because you can't see it's disasterous 'cuz in your mind you're right to go that way. It was his failure to see where his actions were wrong that so stronly contributed to the disaster it eventually became.

I hear what's being said about "Obama doesn't seem to care"..... Seems being the operative word. How does anyone know whether or not he cares? We're not standing in the Oval Office talking policy to him. We don't know if he's on the phone hours a day trying to reestablish connections that have been ruptured all over the world. And you know, what happens in the rest of the world really isn't all about us. If you think a country votes it's government based entirely on that governments view of the US. you need to travel one hell of a lot more. Major player in the wrold or not, we're still just one little part of it and most non-Americans realy don't base their lives or political activity on us. Hell, we can't understand half of what our significant others sleeping next to us really deeply feel about various issues deeply personal to them. And people want to judge the presidency based on a many thousand miles away view filtered by media?

Bush had a disasterous presidency. I base that view on the condition of the country when he entered office (under a tainted election) as opposed to it's condition when he left office. I didn't criticize him until towards the end of his administration when it became clear just what damage had been done. A lot of people gave him the same courtesy. But we can't give it to this president? Why?

'Rani

[ilikemyusername]

at least he's not a Kennedy.

[StreetBob]

While I agree with you Boho, people did the exact same thing with Bush, just now that the tables are turned, both sides are argueing the opposite sides.

I think the problem is we forget that the people in power really aren't any different from ourselves as people. The do things right and they make bad choices now and then just like the rest of us. My only real complaint with Bush was that he refused to admit to either himself or the world that he could possibly be wrong. If you can't admit you're wrong you can't stop yourself continuing down a disasterous path because you can't see it's disasterous 'cuz in your mind you're right to go that way. It was his failure to see where his actions were wrong that so stronly contributed to the disaster it eventually became.

I hear what's being said about "Obama doesn't seem to care"..... Seems being the operative word. How does anyone know whether or not he cares? We're not standing in the Oval Office talking policy to him. We don't know if he's on the phone hours a day trying to reestablish connections that have been ruptured all over the world. And you know, what happens in the rest of the world really isn't all about us. If you think a country votes it's government based entirely on that governments view of the US. you need to travel one hell of a lot more. Major player in the wrold or not, we're still just one little part of it and most non-Americans realy don't base their lives or political activity on us. Hell, we can't understand half of what our significant others sleeping next to us really deeply feel about various issues deeply personal to them. And people want to judge the presidency based on a many thousand miles away view filtered by media?

Bush had a disasterous presidency. I base that view on the condition of the country when he entered office (under a tainted election) as opposed to it's condition when he left office. I didn't criticize him until towards the end of his administration when it became clear just what damage had been done. A lot of people gave him the same courtesy. But we can't give it to this president? Why?

'Rani

What was Bush wrong about? And LOL that you think people gave Bush courtesy... I agree FSU, I find humor in the table turning reactions.

[clibinarius]

Note: I'm not saying whether or not I'm missile defense is a good idea. I'm simply saying the timing was beyond catastrophic.

And Lyndon Johnson planned his daughters wedding on the anniversary of Hiroshima.

'Rani

This is different. This is Obama violates a deal the US made with Poland on the day Poland was invaded by the USSR. This deal is to prevent "Russian Aggression". In the case of LBJ, his daughter's wedding had nothing to do with Japan or nuclear war. You say mountains out of molehills-and most Americans might agree (especially since I doubt a majority can find Poland on a map). That's a cultural thing; there's an attitude that Poland doesn't matter (Bush was ridiculed for talking up Poland back in 2004). Poland is more important to the US at the moment than France by far-it commits troops to our war efforts, it willingly wants to be a full member of our alliances, it wants to better integrate with our economy. Selling out Poland was inevitable due to the economy as well as international political pressure. Selling them out on "Polish National Betrayal Day" as it might as well be called? Its not as unforgivable as much as it is profoundly retarded.

Its sort of as if Saudi Arabia declares something stupid on September 11th such as "National Islam Liberation Day". You can bet most Americans would be highly insulted by it and it would seriously hurt the relationship. Saudi Arabia doesn't want to do such a thing-and you can bet your ass that even if they did, they wouldn't be that stupid. That would be the diplomatic equal of this, NOT counting the fact they haven't betrayed us over any deals. This is very very different than LBJ's daughter. Remember, Russia occupied Poland for more of the last century than Poland wasn't occupied by Russia. 9/17/39 was the day the USSR was there to stay after being kicked out in the 20s.

I would add: This deal doesn't make the Western Europeans happy. Nor the Poles. Nor the Czechs, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Swedes, or Finns. The only ones it makes happy are the Russians who themselves are fairly cool on Obama to begin with. So what diplomatic victories does Obama have? If Bush pissed off our traditional allies, Obama's doing a great job pissing off our post-Cold War allies.

I, for one, am deeply afraid of Jobbik, and any Polish equal gaining power. I would also add, when I voted for Obama, I didn't vote for this stuff. I didn't vote for bailout after bailout. I didn't vote for a shitty healthcare plan. I knew that I'd get those though. But I definitely didn't expect Obama to be so bad on foreign policy. He didn't stop England from freeing the Libyan (And even Sarko called the Americans weak for that). He didn't do anything to assist Japan (and now the Democratic Party of Japan has a supermajority and this could get very ugly since no one else except for the Liberal Democrats ever had power)-though Japan is easily a Bush failure just as much. Every day Obama talks about weakening his healthcare plan further. This was the breaking point. I didn't like him, true, but I honestly regret not voting for John McCain after today-I'm honestly ashamed for voting for Obama. I would add, I didn't expect much but I wouldn't dislike him so much if I didn't feel so betrayed. I had a small amount that maybe-just maybe-we'd have someone marginally more competent than Bush (and possibly more honest) running the country. We didn't get that. We have, at best, the same stuff. At best. Not at worst. At best. I can't name anything he's actually stood for or done that's good. I can name a lot of things he's said he'd do. I can't name one he's actually tried to do seriously.

[Rani]

Note: I'm not saying whether or not I'm missile defense is a good idea. I'm simply saying the timing was beyond catastrophic.

And Lyndon Johnson planned his daughters wedding on the anniversary of Hiroshima.

'Rani

This is different. This is Obama violates a deal the US made with Poland on the day Poland was invaded by the USSR. This deal is to prevent "Russian Aggression". In the case of LBJ, his daughter's wedding had nothing to do with Japan or nuclear war. You say mountains out of molehills-and most Americans might agree (especially since I doubt a majority can find Poland on a map). That's a cultural thing; there's an attitude that Poland doesn't matter (Bush was ridiculed for talking up Poland back in 2004). Poland is more important to the US at the moment than France by far-it commits troops to our war efforts, it willingly wants to be a full member of our alliances, it wants to better integrate with our economy. Selling out Poland was inevitable due to the economy as well as international political pressure. Selling them out on "Polish National Betrayal Day" as it might as well be called? Its not as unforgivable as much as it is profoundly retarded.

Its sort of as if Saudi Arabia declares something stupid on September 11th such as "National Islam Liberation Day". You can bet most Americans would be highly insulted by it and it would seriously hurt the relationship. Saudi Arabia doesn't want to do such a thing-and you can bet your ass that even if they did, they wouldn't be that stupid. That would be the diplomatic equal of this, NOT counting the fact they haven't betrayed us over any deals. This is very very different than LBJ's daughter. Remember, Russia occupied Poland for more of the last century than Poland wasn't occupied by Russia. 9/17/39 was the day the USSR was there to stay after being kicked out in the 20s.

I would add: This deal doesn't make the Western Europeans happy. Nor the Poles. Nor the Czechs, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Swedes, or Finns. The only ones it makes happy are the Russians who themselves are fairly cool on Obama to begin with. So what diplomatic victories does Obama have? If Bush pissed off our traditional allies, Obama's doing a great job pissing off our post-Cold War allies.

I, for one, am deeply afraid of Jobbik, and any Polish equal gaining power. I would also add, when I voted for Obama, I didn't vote for this stuff. I didn't vote for bailout after bailout. I didn't vote for a shitty healthcare plan. I knew that I'd get those though. But I definitely didn't expect Obama to be so bad on foreign policy. He didn't stop England from freeing the Libyan (And even Sarko called the Americans weak for that). He didn't do anything to assist Japan (and now the Democratic Party of Japan has a supermajority and this could get very ugly since no one else except for the Liberal Democrats ever had power)-though Japan is easily a Bush failure just as much. Every day Obama talks about weakening his healthcare plan further. This was the breaking point. I didn't like him, true, but I honestly regret not voting for John McCain after today-I'm honestly ashamed for voting for Obama. I would add, I didn't expect much but I wouldn't dislike him so much if I didn't feel so betrayed. I had a small amount that maybe-just maybe-we'd have someone marginally more competent than Bush (and possibly more honest) running the country. We didn't get that. We have, at best, the same stuff. At best. Not at worst. At best. I can't name anything he's actually stood for or done that's good. I can name a lot of things he's said he'd do. I can't name one he's actually tried to do seriously.

!) The bailouts were already started in committee when Obama took office. Or do you honestly feel he managed to pull that out of his backside overnight? Doesn't happen that way. The application for bailouts started mid spring of last year. They would have happened no matter who ended up in the White House.

2) And how do you suggest he stop England from doing as they choose to do? Were we supposed to invade Dover perhaps? Another Tea Party in the middle of the Thames? How are we supposed to make demands on another soveriegn nation and enforce them without going to war? And were any of us in on conversations between Obama and the English members of Parliment? I don't assume I know everything if I don't know everything. For all I know he traded a big advance towards world peace by not objecting to what they were going to do anyway. I don't know and neither do you.

3) I agree with staying out of Japans politics. Half the world thinks we're imperialists who refuse to let them make their own choices and rule their own countries. We held a revolution a couple hundred years ago on this very same principle. Self determination. Why do you believe the rest of the world doesn't deserve the same choice?

4) The Health Care Reform isn't in place yet. It's still a work in progress and it's still going here and there through committee after committee and negotiation. This stage is dentical to "contract negotiations". Have you ever personally done contract negotiations? I have. You put a lot of stuff in there you know is going to get thrown out so that you can use it as bargaining tools to get what you really want. I refuse to criticize something that's still in the contract negotiation stage. Once it's set in stone, then I'll decide if I like it or not. Until then it's still just negotiations. And by the way, you never show your real hand or desires during these kind of negotiations.

I'm not certain people really have a handle on how politics (both US and world politics) work. It's all about negotiations between this set of cronies and that set of ideals, exchanging this for that. In a perfect world it shouldn't be that way, but in a world with many nations and factions all trying to do what they believe is right for themselves and their nation and their party it's what we've got. And unless we're in on the negotiations ourselves personally we can't make assumptions about anything. Just like you don't expect the head of your company to sit down and tell you all the little details that are far above your pay grade, we can't as outsiders of those details know all of what's going on. The best we can hope for is that we have an honest person with integrity trying to represent us to the best of his ability. And I honestly believe Obama is at least that. When it's all said and done whether or not he'll end up having a successful presidency remains to be judged. I think that's why they call it history.

'Rani

[clibinarius]

While I agree with you Boho, people did the exact same thing with Bush, just now that the tables are turned, both sides are argueing the opposite sides.

I hear what's being said about "Obama doesn't seem to care"..... Seems being the operative word. How does anyone know whether or not he cares?

'Rani

I don't think he cares anymore. I just don't. Hoping someone "doesn't seem to care" as opposed to actively ignoring them...that's optimistic. I have lost all hope and faith in Obama...not that I had much to begin with...but I now think that the next three years will be just as bad as the last eight months. See, I don't hope he fails. I don't want him to fail. That's the difference. I hope he succeeds. He's failing horribly, and unlike the right wing pundits, I consider myself pro-American enough to hope our country succeeds. I would go out and compare this presidency to JFK. People who like Obama will like that comparison-good for them. I don't think that's a good thing, but I think Obama is as much of a failure as JFK. Well, that's not true: I still think JFK was a bigger failure. I don't see Obama being worse, but I could be unfortunately surprised...

And I have documents of me bashing Bush as early as 2002. If more people were criticizing Bush back in 2002, the country might be such a mess today. I will not wait for the end of the presidency to deem a president bad. If the president makes a bad decision, it should be bad. If he consistently makes a bad decision, then he's a bad president. Bush consistently made bad decisions. Obama is consistently making bad decisions. The tables in my opinion aren't turned because I don't see a difference. To me, the tables will be turned when we have good leadership.

[Rani]

What was Bush wrong about? And LOL that you think people gave Bush courtesy... I agree FSU, I find humor in the table turning reactions.

How soon people forget. GWB had one of the highest approval ratings ever recorded after the fall of the Towers. This country thought he walked on water. It took years before we found out just how wrong we were.

'Rani

[clibinarius]

To answer your points:

1. You're right. They started before he took power and were unpopular then. He didn't change the policies. Just as bad as Bush-no better.

2. I don't know how he "stop England" but the point is he's taking no initiative for it. He can't invade countries, but there's no preparation, no means of support, nothing coming out of State or the presidency. Perhaps having administration officials saying "There is no special relationship" is a bad way to have a pro-American government-I don't know. Maybe he shouldn't be giving a near-blind prime minister DVDs. I don't know. There's been no real good points between US-UK relations since Obama came to office.

3. Because the global economic system is sort of screwed up to begin with. So most of the world thinks we're imperialists-big deal. A lot of the world outside of the countries that think they matter too much (IE: France, Germany) actually LIKE America. I've met nearly no Germans that dislike America. Its not my fault the European/Canadian press feels like bashing us almost daily (and then, to add insult to injury, saying "They represent world opinion"-Bush was beloved in most of Africa, and had a very good relationship with a lot of Asian countries and Eastern Europe). As far as staying out of Japan's politics, we should, except we have vast economic ties and its impossible for both countries to stay out of each other's politics. To say "Hands off Japan" is just not realistic (and the Japanese have HUGE influence over US policy). This notion that America is imperialist-yeah, to an extent we are. The only ones complaining about that so much for the most part used to be imperial powers (France), used to want to be imperial powers (Germany), and still are imperial powers (Russia). Of course, in Iraq, there's problems. Those are Bush's fault. But go to a country such as Algeria. Go to Egypt. You'll find MANY people in these countries who really really like America, even if they have a few problems with our governments. Go to Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Poland. A lot of Africa. It seems that a lot of places ruled by the French/British/Russians, we're quite popular. The only places we're unpopular...well...are those countries that ruled or are still dominated by them...

OK, fine, maybe you'll subscribe to the belief the "World Hates Us"-we screwed up South America. Last I checked, we're incredibly popular in Columbia. Brazilians seem to like America. Mexicans...hmm...it seems most people don't really hate America unless they're political nationalists in those countries, and even then (like Columbia), its a mixed bag. The Chavez "America is hated" narrative is simply not true.

4. Health Care reform isn't deregulated-any Republican buy reforms are ignored (and some in my opinion are quite good). None of them are in contradiction of the public option either, amazingly. Republican plans don't seem to contradict the democratic plans. A bipartisan bill should be fully possible (though I don't see Republicans supporting even that under any circumstances). In the meantime, look, I support a Single Payer plan. Most Americans would agree with me. Its somehow not possible and off the table. Democrats have a supermajority, but its just not possible...Tom Harkin supports it, Barney Frank supports it, but its not possible. People whining about "socialism" are in the minority I think, but they're also incredibly loud. The media also hasn't covered town halls that don't have a carnival atmosphere. Every day new statements come from the White House that the public option might not even be there-Obama, to appease some DEMOCRATS, seems very very willing to betray people.

Besides, Bush said after 9/11 that he wouldn't tell us everything that's going on (National Security). Only bad presidents often need secrecy in times that are not total war.

[tinyj316]

So, I just found out my professors scheduled a trip to the mortuary on the 17th anniversary of the passing of my grandfather... they're idiots... I can't believe they sunk to a low like that...

........... sounds pretty stupid, huh?

[clibinarius]

So, I just found out my professors scheduled a trip to the mortuary on the 17th anniversary of the passing of my grandfather... they're idiots... I can't believe they sunk to a low like that...

........... sounds pretty stupid, huh?

I think people are missing the point here. The equal to this would be if your grandfather was murdered, and on the 17th anniversary, your professor was making you celebrate his killer. Saying "Something happened" and "This happens on the same day" is a bit different than saying this:

"On 9/17/39, Poland was KILLED by the USSR. On 9/17/09, The US says it will not defend reborn Poland from the Russians if they decide to murder it again, but informs Poland that 'It really doesn't mean offense.'"

Of course, if you subscribe to an ideology that thinks loyalty of others is worthless, then why not celebrate his betrayal? Have fun doing this! Edited September 18, 2009 by clibinarius

[TheScotsman]

BS just continues to show it's amateur hour in the white house.

He came from the heart of political corruption, with a history of working with corrupt people/terrorists and corrupt organizations. He was elected on the back of a meaningless slogan, and a load of promises he has failed to uphold. Since he has been in office it's just one giant load of horseshit after another coming from the gov't. (naturally, being a good progressive, none of it is his fault.)


Still have earmarks... check.
Still pork filled budgets... check.
Still have lobbyists in white house jobs... check
Still have loads of tax cheats in the cabinet... check
Still no transparency in govt... check
Still in assganistan... check
Still in Iraq... check
Dollar still falling... check
Acorn Apollo and SEIU are making Haliburton look like a monopoly game
President openly lying to the public... check.


Waiting for the change...............



It is so refreshing to see the dems hoisted on their own petard.


O ne
B ig
A ss
M istake
A merica!


I am enjoying treating him, and his party with the same type distasteful comments, and lack of respect the dumbocraps have shown to bush 1, 2, or Regan.

[clibinarius]

I am enjoying treating him, and his party with the same type distasteful comments, and lack of respect the dumbocraps have shown to bush 1, 2, or Regan.

I sort of resent this; I don't think its anything to enjoy, nor do I think its a lack of respect in my case (as much as lack of trust to respect)...I don't bash Obama because I'm a Republican, and I didn't bash Bush because I was a Democrat. I'd love to have a president I didn't have to complain about. I seriously would. Bashing him gives me no pleasure. Its just a way of my venting my frustrations.

[Rani]

I am enjoying treating him, and his party with the same type distasteful comments, and lack of respect the dumbocraps have shown to bush 1, 2, or Regan.

I sort of resent this; I don't think its anything to enjoy, nor do I think its a lack of respect in my case (as much as lack of trust to respect)...I don't bash Obama because I'm a Republican, and I didn't bash Bush because I was a Democrat. I'd love to have a president I didn't have to complain about. I seriously would. Bashing him gives me no pleasure. Its just a way of my venting my frustrations.

I would agree with this. I've never thought you bashed Obama to bash him. I think you have what you believe are valid concerns. I'm not arguing whether or not they're valid because if they have to be valid to you even if the rest of the world think they're horse pucky. It's history that will show whose concerns will have more merit in the end. Scotsman on the other hand always seems to be in the throes of mastrubatory orgasm bashing anything Democratic without the in depth consideration you show. (I may not agree with you but I give you the respect that you at least do intelligent thought and research.)

Quite frankly I don't think there's a whole lot of difference between Republicans and Democrats in the actual results of the way this country is run. It's a useless title given to the masses to satisfy the change over in "he did it wrong so let's go with the other party" mentality. It's an illusiion of change and every politican ever running for office has used it. Obama is no different. I think because he's pro-technology we will take the first steps towards more transparency in government, but only the first steps and only because the technology allows the potential for it. And I think the good ol' boys are going to fight it every step of the way. Because if we really knew what they were doing without our oversight, none of them would have a snow balls chance in hell of of reelectiion. And it's an excuse one party uses against each other everytime things don't go their way. "See? This is what you get when Democrats (or Republicans) run things!" It's all bullshit for the convenience of both parties because they're all working in the same office making the same deals with each other regardless of party affiliation. And anyone who falls into the rhetoric of them vs. us is a shill for the party and personally I think being made a fool of to buy into it.

I'm wondering why you feel betrayed....... Maybe I'm cynical, but I expected a turn around in the economy based on the fact that it always turns around with a new administration, some policy decisions I'd like, some I'd hate and pretty much more of the same under a different banner. I believe he does have integrity and I believe part of that is that he's reluctant to rile up the ranks in the House and Sentae with aggressive rhetoric. He's a diplomat at heart and that will work for him and against him, because really, if you're actually going to change things, sometimes you gotta raise a little hell. No president is going to do that. I'm just hoping that after all the dust of history settles, it turns out the work he did without mouthing off about it will turn out to have served the best interests of the country.

In the end while I still support him, I didn't expect the entire politics of the country to change. And McCain would have done no different. Every politician is pretty much cut from the same cloth. Otherwise they wouldn't be successful politicians. The only thing that really changes is the general style and cut of the suit from that cloth.

'Rani

[tinyj316]

Out of curiosity, what good did Regan do for the country? Bush 1? 2? What good has any US president done since we signed the Declaration of Independence?

Not a whole hell of a lot... sure, you might be able to pick the diamonds out of the turds...but all in all the country has been going downhill since its inception...

It's not the Democrat's fault...It's not the Republican's fault...It's not the Whig's fault... its our fault. We elected them. Regardless of if the guy you voted for actually won, the Electoral College, and subsequently the American people, have voted ourselves into this situation...

Since when has a single politician followed through on every single campaign promise they've made? (assuming they weren't super vague promises like I'll do my best)

The only way the American people are going to fix the country is to do some of all of the following:

1) Revolt against the Government
2) Give states even more power, or restrict states power even more
3) Enact term limits on the house, senate, and the supreme court
4) Create a true and viable multi party system
5) Ban PACs and major corporations/lobby groups from contributing funds to election funds
6) Act civil toward our neighbors and acquaintances, despite party affiliation
7) Reward innovation
8) Limit patent and trademark holdings to accommodate industry growth
9) Make justice blind again, as it was intended. IE fix the justice system
10)Break our dependence on foreign imports of all kinds (fuel, hardlines, softlines)

[tinyj316]

Also... why do we always have to stick our nose in the business of every other country in the world? We've been doing it for years! We had no business in Vietnam...we had no business in the first world war...we had no business in the second world war until the Japanese bombed us... we had no business in Korea... we had no business in Iraq the first time around... we had no business in Bosnia... we had no business in Iraq the second time around...

We have a history of playing world police... and it costs us too much money with little to no thanks from the rest of the world... Its what we call a lose lose in the business world... Why do we have to go protect every other country that cries foul?

[clibinarius]

Also... why do we always have to stick our nose in the business of every other country in the world? We've been doing it for years! We had no business in Vietnam...we had no business in the first world war...we had no business in the second world war until the Japanese bombed us... we had no business in Korea... we had no business in Iraq the first time around... we had no business in Bosnia... we had no business in Iraq the second time around...

We have a history of playing world police... and it costs us too much money with little to no thanks from the rest of the world... Its what we call a lose lose in the business world... Why do we have to go protect every other country that cries foul?

I love my country. I think many others do. I've pondered recently the possibility of moving to Denmark to teach American English if the economy doesn't improve (the idea of moving away sort of is said by me out of complaint because I'd really like to stay here). See, that's the benefit to having friends around the world. I, as an American, can reasonably move throughout many lands and be in demand. Foreign countries buy our products-believe it or not, we're still No. 3 in terms of manufacturing in the world. Its not that we don't actually export, though industrial numbers are down; its that we don't consume enough domestic products and import a huge surplus. No one out there says "Look for the union label" or "Buy USA"-voluntary reasons to buy local and raise capital in a community. Yet, if you look overseas, people enjoy McDonald's and Britney Spears. Now, we might complain about the (lack of quality) in those products, but believe it or not, people in lands as diverse as India to Argentina love American culture and products.

Its sort of like that Rammstein song, Amerika. Its true; people eat American style pizza around the globe, and listen to western music. Lindemann might say "This is not a love song" but still...no one's asking Lindemann to love it. This gives us a few advantages; it allows us to go to places and be liked (or to places and be hated). It allows us to trade with people. Maybe I'm being spoiled, but I think it is awesome that, while blueberries are out of season in the US, I can import them fresh from Argentina or Chile at a low price. Unlike angry people writing angry music, I think in most cases in most countries-including Germany-at the moment it is still a love song with America.

Now the other day I was a local election inspector in my district. It was a Democratic-Only primary, as no other parties (including third) had primaries due to Westchester, NY being a one-party system. I was one of the nominal Republicans. The other guy who was a Republican had a different history than me. Both of us (The Republicans) voted for Obama, hated Bush, and were mad at the Republican congress. I'm only registered Republican anyway because I view it as more important to vote in the Republican Primary than the Democratic one as I am more likely to vote for the Democratic Candidate, I think it is important to get the best Republican possible, or "most tolerable" to try to make it a close race. Aside from that, I do believe in the Democratic Party's ideals, though I don't believe in the party whatsoever.

Anyway, a large chunk of the conversation was about conditions back in Europe and how we both ended up in America. My ancestors lived in the Russian Empire and fled because we didn't want to fight for the tzar. He had a nasty habit of putting Jews on the front lines to get killed (along with Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Ukranians and Finns) while protecting the ethnically Russian soldiers. You see, Jews weren't allowed to actually live in Russia because of their religion and that they were somehow labeled as outsiders, even though there was a gigantic Jewish Empire 1000 years ago in Central Asia that expanded as far west as Kiev (When it got broken, many of the Khazars seemed to have converted, regardless of whether or not they were Jewish, to Islam). Russian Monarchists sort of had this view of Jews as not just people in affront to God's will back then (and we were the tzar's personal property), but also as the personal property of the tzar, to be used and disposed of to how he saw fit. Thus, that branch of my family fled to the US. If we could, we would have volunteered for the Kaiser and fought for the Germans, like many other people in the western part of the Russian Empire, but we just couldn't do it. So we ended up here.

The only serious opposition to the tzar were the communists. When my great grandmother was 12, which my grandmother didn't talk about until recently, she was exiled from Latvia to Lithuania because, apparently, she was a communist. The communists had the only really serious want to grant Jews and other minorities (particularly protestants and catholics) emancipation from the tzar. She too fled to the US, probably go get away from her boyfriend, but we thought she was Lithuanian. Similar members of my family came from Belarussia and Romania. I don't consider myself one type of person (Jewish) with one type of background. I consider my family lineage to be quite diverse, thank you very much. In some cases before the Russians, we were literally in bed with Austrian Royalty, in other cases, wine makers in Smolesk.

The reason I consider it so important the US police the world at times is that many of my relatives died in Europe that couldn't get out. True, it was before I was born. I don't hold much of a grudge at all against European states though (although I'm very suspicious of Europe). Some were held back because of quotas. Some because they simply had a cold when they crossed in and were sent back for being sick. US immigration policy in my view indirectly led to the deaths of millions it could have saved. So I have sympathy for the immigrant. But the US did not (and rather could not) intervene in the events of Eastern Europe which led to the deaths of millions of people from all backgrounds, be it German or Russian or anyone caught in the middle of their war and executions.

The inspector I worked with was Estonian. Most Estonians don't believe Americans know of their little country along the Baltic (and in fact, most Americans don't know it exists). It is Lutheran. Unfortunately, they were a country too caught up in the holocaust and are often seen as one of the more evil ones. Its not that simple: The Russians had played Jews off against the Estonians for more than a century by this point, collecting their taxes, and moving them into the country; to the average Estonian, there was no difference between a Jew and a Russian (and as such, Estonians did not realize that they suffered from the same fate as the Jews in both the USSR and Russian Empires); as such, when promised liberation in exchange for collaboration with the Germans, countries like Estonia did the bidding of the Germans to an extreme. This occurred too in Lithuania, where my relatives also dwelled and were probably shot by Einstatzgruppen (it is likely that they would have been collaborators with the USSR in my opinion, as that was the best way to get protection for themselves against the looming German threat). The British and French stood by idly as both my ancestoral homeland and his homeland (he was born in Estonia, in fact) were ravaged by first Russian invasion, then German occupation followed by Germany's crushing of its independence, followed by Russian re-invasion. His family had a choice when he was a baby: Go to Sweden or fight for the Germans and move to Germany. Feeling they owed the Germans nothing, they went to Sweden, fearing that they'd be shot by the Russians upon invasion as the Russians weren't kind to former Soviet subjects who surrendered, or maybe even just dealt with, the Germans. In the end, of course, the French standing by proved fatal for France and the British lost their empire-the price for allowing strong powers who are psychotic to get out of hand.

Both of us have similar backgrounds, though its funny because we both came from people who, in 1942, would've probably killed each other if we got the chance; we were united in the fact we were both in my opinion good people, who could talk about the way things should have been, and how America helped them become that for us. Most people in this country are refugees, and most people who call for our help generally do like us. If America had the capability of guaranteeing the neutrality of Europe, or if the UK and France honored their commitments to many nations, much slaughter could have been prevented. My dead relatives would still be alive, and there are few people in Eastern Europe, Russia or Germany who couldn't say the same thing. We did not have the power to do anything, but the UK/France did NOTHING to help anyone. In terms of the UK, they actively betrayed the Czech Republic, which could've held out for months along its frontier. Given the fact German tanks still broke down often, it is likely that if the Czechs stood up to the Germans, the Germans would not have broken through in 1938, and there would've been a coup that brought down Hitler's government. With Hitler out of the way, there'd have been no Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and possibly, no holocaust. In any event, Germany would've been knocked out of the war and a united front could have been formed in collective security to defend itself against the USSR in 1940 should the USSR be aggressive again.

Its true we can not defend everyone in the world. But this area of the world means a lot to millions of the US citizenry. Millions have lost relatives here, no matter what political party they supported during the war. Those who were refugees almost always-even if the Soviets honestly liberated them-feared the Soviets (and rightfully so). The reality is, we were involved in the Baltic States. We made promises. We built trade and alliances. We guaranteed their protection from aggression. It was difficult to find people who weren't Nazi who disliked us in most of those countries, even if some still had old hatreds come to the surface. They were being integrated as equals among the rest of their continent too, for the first time in some cases in hundreds of years.

The whole point of this long, personal narrative though is to say: there are millions there thankful for our existence, even if there are millions that curse it. Most Americans think this country is a profound force for good. We don't want to think our politicians are intentionally evil; they make mistakes. Some are corrupt. Bad decisions are made. But the notion that people give us no credit? No benefit? Garbage. Supporting countries-being loyal-leads to loyal subjects who will die for this country if they could be in it. It leads to their ideas advancing our culture. It prevents us from becoming xenophobic and decadent. If countries are ungrateful for it, that's their right to be (after all, there are MANY stories in which the US was NOT benevolent and acted like a cruel power). But to say that we will shut our eyes to the rest of the world? Most of this country was founded by people fleeing their homelands or seeking a better opportunity. It could be religious minorities landing in Massachusetts, or Maryland providing a haven for Catholics...some of the settlement was beyond unforgivable (importation of slaves and participation in the trade), but the country was made up of refugees and people who wanted to seek out a new life. To say "Fuck the world" ignores who we are as a country, as a people, and ignores our view of history-which is important. No matter how bad or good the past may be, few people (even loudmouths) in this country I think are bad people who want to destroy the world. We want a world that expands on what we think was good in the past, or to correct the mistakes of the past.

Given the fact a lot of my family was wiped out, I think its fair to say that celebrating the Soviet invasion of Poland with the US betrayal-its not just in my view wrong to do it on that day even if the policy was necessary. Its outright an embarrassment and humiliating. I've often complained about the behavior of Poland during WWII; for the most part, I don't hold a grudge against the country. I try to be neutral on Russia, though its hard for me to trust they won't go on a spree annexing all of Eastern Europe (especially after the fact Paleo-Conservative propagandists attempted to blame the war on Israel!) after the Russo-Georgian War. Nonetheless, Polish Nationalist concerns are real, and they don't trust Russia at all at the moment. We could've done this much much gentler instead of picking one of the worst possible days in the calendar to call things off. That's why I'm so angered by this policy, and in particular, by the date; Bush shouldn't have brought us there, but unilaterally pulling out on 9/17 is even worse in my opinion. You don't betray your friends.

There. That is why I think it is our duty to "police the world" as you snobbishly call it. I simply call our duty the right to "Honor our obligations" to both our forefathers and also that we've made with our partners in treaty (we should seriously consider the obligations we say we'll make as a country, but once we make them, we should not break them)-we shouldn't go around the world thinking of monsters to destroy unless someone asks us to, we weigh in the information and see if we can do it (and most times, we simply won't be able to, nor should we even if we could). I think, even if you don't believe in a mission that the US has...I think anyone can say we should respect the agreements we've made whenever possible and not betray those who provide us markets for our production and people to contribute to our country. Its a question of possibly Nationalism-a sense of a community and to protect it-and loyalty. There's a reason why treason is punishable by death in the constitution. I have no respect for opinions that say Obama and Bush were embarrassments to most of the world that, when confronted with world anger towards Americans can only say "Fuck the world"-proving they don't actually give a damn about those countries anyway. If you say "Fuck the world"-please-don't complain when other people hate us.

[clibinarius]

I'm wondering why you feel betrayed....... Maybe I'm cynical, but I expected a turn around in the economy based on the fact that it always turns around with a new administration, some policy decisions I'd like, some I'd hate and pretty much more of the same under a different banner. I believe he does have integrity and I believe part of that is that he's reluctant to rile up the ranks in the House and Sentae with aggressive rhetoric. He's a diplomat at heart and that will work for him and against him, because really, if you're actually going to change things, sometimes you gotta raise a little hell. No president is going to do that. I'm just hoping that after all the dust of history settles, it turns out the work he did without mouthing off about it will turn out to have served the best interests of the country.

I feel betrayed, because even though I didn't expect much, I expected an effort, to try and reward those who elected Obama. I didn't expect him to be able to turn around the economy. I feel most healthcare plans are deficient. I feel he won't balance the budget and doesn't care to. I feel that he won't support raising interest rates, even though I think that would be the right policy (it would reward savers, force banks to go under where the FDIC could step in, and let a lot of the bad leverage clear). It would bankrupt a lot of his monitary backers, and cause pain in the next year or two (picture 1982, but much worse), and cause negative effects worldwide (a lot of these countries exposed themselves and benefited off the recent bubbles that they blame America for, perhaps much more than most Americans). All these would be temporary and I think fixable once the economy is allowed to sink to a point where things drop to fair value. By not allowing the markets to tank, its basically guaranteed I'll never save enough money to buy a house, buy any stocks, participate in retirement plans. My retirement, in my view, is going to be screwed up, my living conditions lessened, mostly due to the fact unsustainable policies (mostly based off ever increasing P/E ratios, and government taxes worldwide the reward short term investments and no company loyalty) resembling a Ponzi scheme, pricing out my generation of getting into the investment pie, and even if we are someday rich enough, we'll never gain back the money we put in the market just by the market. The baby boomers get their healthcare benefits and had them their whole lives; many owned houses; many had kids, tax cuts. My generation will not be able to afford it unless there's a dramatic shift in government culture. Obama got my vote and the youth vote. I understand he can't change everything, but there's no audacity of audacity there at all. Even if he gets his public option, since I can only find part time or retail help, a lot of my friends can't do better...his public option won't help many of us. His policies don't help us save our money or invest. I mentioned below I'm thinking about moving out of America...this is why. Notice I mentioned "Had kids"-if I'm paying huge amounts to rent or mortgages, and with the escalating property taxes to go to schools (without improving education), and with the escalating costs of books and coleges...I doubt I'll ever even be able to afford to have kids and come close to maintaining my standard of living.

So you can read that and take your pick at why I feel betrayed. I never voted for Bush, and I don't think he ever got the youth vote; Bush might've been a horrible president, but I don't feel betrayed by him. I don't expect Obama to fix everything, or anything, but I expected a cultural shift to try and address that the youth matter. By allowing the P/E ratios to lift above, say, 143 on the S&P 500 and not even be willing to call the SEC to investigate? That's why I feel betrayed. He's allowing my future to be a ponzi scheme.

[omgitsjimmy]

Firstly, The Invasion of Poland was a joint attack by the Soviets and Nazi Germany who were allied together. The Soviets weren't "intervening" because it wasn't an opportunist attack but a coordinated one.

Secondly, The new Topol-M ICBM that Russia is using is designed to evade all current and planned anti-missile defense technologies. The patriot missiles in poland is just a useless money pit to defense companies. Its just useless saber rattling with Russia at the expense of US Taxpayers.

Thirdly, The US is dependent on Russia's cooperation to service the International Space Station. Since the Space Shuttle is retiring, we will be even more dependent on Russia for rotating the ISS crew until the Ares rockets become operational.

Russia and the US are dependent on each other and other participating nations to keep the ISS project alive. Instead of policing the world, we should promote multinational cooperation towards peaceful scientific goals.

[TheScotsman]

The answer to the missile cancellation is solved.

It wasn't idiotic...
it was further payback for the debt he owes NBC.

Poland's security was a gift to his CEO friend, Immelt, clearing the way for a deal with russia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...H50324420090917
http://www.reuters.com/article/mergersNews...LI4598620090918
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/...s-59644627.html


No, no media bias or corruption in the obambi admin at all.... bullshit.

[clibinarius]

Firstly, The Invasion of Poland was a joint attack by the Soviets and Nazi Germany who were allied together. The Soviets weren't "intervening" because it wasn't an opportunist attack but a coordinated one.

Secondly, The new Topol-M ICBM that Russia is using is designed to evade all current and planned anti-missile defense technologies. The patriot missiles in poland is just a useless money pit to defense companies. Its just useless saber rattling with Russia at the expense of US Taxpayers.

Thirdly, The US is dependent on Russia's cooperation to service the International Space Station. Since the Space Shuttle is retiring, we will be even more dependent on Russia for rotating the ISS crew until the Ares rockets become operational.

Russia and the US are dependent on each other and other participating nations to keep the ISS project alive. Instead of policing the world, we should promote multinational cooperation towards peaceful scientific goals.

Yes and no; the Soviet attack was a coordinated one, but they didn't leave for 50 years except for when the Germans reigned between 1941-1944 (In some cases, they are still there). Considering the Soviet invasion of Poland in the 1920s, it was opportunism because Stalin could only gain the territories Trotsky fought for by collaborating with the Nazis who had as much respect for these people as he did (to conquer Poland without German support would have probably meant war with the west). Besides, I didn't see for the Nazis demanding Stalin attack Finland. Furthermore, the Soviet act was the one that ended Polish independence. If you know the Polish strategy for fighting the Germans, its a good bet Poland would've held out for a long time against the Germans, if not defeated them in the field eventually and invaded Germany itself, coordinated. The idea of Poland as a weak country (especially compared to Germany) has cultural hegemony, so the notion the Soviet Union defeated Poland (not Germany) is one the west kindly forgets. Poland, however, does not.

Second, You're talking military; its not rattling the saber with Russia as much as it is soothing the paranoia of Eastern Europe. Most of these countries want the Russians out at all costs, so much they overwhelmingly sided with the Germans in 1941. The point here is they're so fanatically paranoid about the Russians that they had greeted the Nazis-who would kill them anyway-as liberators in most places (The German invasion of the USSR did not fail until the Germans invaded Russia. In Ukraine, Estonia, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Moldova, they were overwhelmingly greeted as liberators until it became apparent in 1942 that the Germans were worse than the Russians). Even today, in countries as diverse as Croatia to Estonia, there is still glorification of people who fought alongside the Germans as national heroes, when it meant the destruction of their countries. That is how fanatical the anti-Russian pan-Slavism feeling is in these countries. As a Jew, it scares me that people would still support Nazis, but doesn't surprise me. As the singer of the Croatian band Thompson said when people complained he was a Nazi, "I don't have a problem with the Jews...I hate Serbs"-the sentiment is pretty disgusting, but it shows the extent people in these countries fear/hate the Russians or, in the case of Croatia, the allies of the Russians. The US is a force that would prevent these people from taking power. If an anti-Russian Nazi takes power also in Eastern Europe, it'd be a legitimate cause of Russian invasion. The US support to Eastern Europe is more political than military. I for one fear that people such as those who the band Thompson would support far more than I fear the Russians, personally. These were the types of people that overwhelmingly killed both the Jews as well as everyone else in their own countries during 1941-1944. Of course, if you subscribe to the beliefs that the only evil people during WWII were Germans and that all these people were Russians, I doubt you'd understand the point of this. Eastern European Nazis probably killed more Jews per capita than the Germans did in the holocaust.

Third, the ISS isn't part of this. Even if the Russians threaten that, we could launch our own rockets.

[tinyj316]

clibinarius, you're getting a bit too sensitive on the subject there buddy...

I didn't say "fuck the world".... I ask why do we have to police the world?... We're not NATO...we're not the UN... Those governing bodies were created for the policing and offering of aid in the world.

I understand that the US has a long standing agreement with Poland that we have their backs... But at the same time, I think this situation is more of a coincidence than anything... Although Scotty, along with reuters, would rather have us believe that it is because of a lobby or because it helps pay down a debt of some sort...

Besides, its not like the missile system won't be built, its just being revised