Vegetarianism

[Rani]

I've been emotionally, spiritually and mentally drawn to vegetarianism for a long time. My body though when I did Atkins (the antithesis of vegetarianism) felt amazing. Bouncing off the walls with energy and feeling great. Every time I've tried going veggie, it hasn't lasted long. Maybe it's because I'm hypoglycemic so getting enough protein can be an issue for me. Do we have any vegetarians here? And can you give me some advice on how you manage it, getting all your nutrients, etc. I'm willing to assume every time I tried it before I likely didn't do it right. (Hagan-Daz is vegetarian after all.....So I know just giving up meat isn't the answer on it's own.) So any help and advice a vegetarian can give me would be much appreciated.

'Rani

[Sonthert]

As a loyal meat eater (except turkey!), I just want to say, plants cry, too.

I was vegan for awhile.

The crucial part is to focus on the essential amino acids. Some of them are quite difficult to find from plant sources.

Eggs are supposed to be quite complete in terms of protein.

The energy increase from Atkins could be just as easily explained by losing weight...it gives quite the spring in your step.

The idea that vegetarians are thinner in some degree is not true, especially with all the processed vegetarian foods that are as bad as their meat counterparts. With the rise of vegetable food-borne illnesses in the past year, its also safe to say the same risks are present in processed non-meat products as meat products. Not to the same degree, of course, but they are still there.

I would avoid soy content. Research it and find out why. The vegetarian camp doesn't seem to acknowledge it, but its probably true nonetheless.

[Rani]

As a loyal meat eater (except turkey!), I just want to say, plants cry, too.

I was vegan for awhile.

The crucial part is to focus on the essential amino acids. Some of them are quite difficult to find from plant sources.

Eggs are supposed to be quite complete in terms of protein.

The energy increase from Atkins could be just as easily explained by losing weight...it gives quite the spring in your step.

The idea that vegetarians are thinner in some degree is not true, especially with all the processed vegetarian foods that are as bad as their meat counterparts. With the rise of vegetable food-borne illnesses in the past year, its also safe to say the same risks are present in processed non-meat products as meat products. Not to the same degree, of course, but they are still there.

I would avoid soy content. Research it and find out why. The vegetarian camp doesn't seem to acknowledge it, but its probably true nonetheless.

That's where I'm having trouble with going with it. I didn't lose that much weight with Atkins - mostly because I wasn't doiing it to lose weight, and I was working out a lot and building a fair amount of lean muscle. The one thing I did do was eliminate almost all processed food. My diet consisted of almost entirely of raw or cooked vegetables, and primarily roasted and grilled meat of all types. The fact that by it's very nature vegetarianism consists of many processed foods (or manufactured foods in the case of meat-alikes), is where I'm having doubts. Everytime I've tried it in the past I've ended up quite literally in a face plant on the carpet within a couple weeks. Before I give up totally though I want to try and figure out if it's me doing it wrong that's been the problem in the past.

'Rani

[Sonthert]

If you follow the line of reasoning of the Atkins Diet, switching to vegetarianism will make you gain weight, not lose weight. Perhaps it is written into our genetic code from a long time ago that some people are going to be thin, some fat. People who consume vegetables or plant material need to build up fat to carry them through the winter when plants all are unavailable. Hunters of meat need to be lean, year 'round to catch animals (or fat and smart). Thats one theory anyhow.

[fineout]

sorry i found it hilarious, no input

[natgnat]

I've been a vegetarian for eight years.

It's not for everyone.

Admittedly, I haven't struggled much with a lack of protein. I get enough trace amounts in dairy, supplemented with mainly beans and tofu.

My suggestion if you really want to convert for an extended period of time is to start with giving up red meat, then chicken, then seafood, or something along those lines.

Though I'm debating eating seafood again... haven't for two of the eight years, but it does really limit what you can eat.

Best of luck either way.

[TheScotsman]

Vegetarian:

An ancient Indian word, means "bad hunter".

[FiveSpeedF150]

sorry i found it hilarious, no input

That... is concentrated awesomeness.

[foibled again]

I don't consider myself knowledgeable on this topic but when my ex-gf decided to go vegan, the first thing I did was buy her a bottle of B12 supplements. If you have not done so already, I would recommend doing some research on vitamin B12 deficiencies in vegan diets.

[tinyj316]

if God wanted us to be vegetarians, he wouldn't have made bacon...

mmm.....bacon....

in all seriousness though, I've got a bunch of friends who are vege/vegan... It works for them to a degree...many of the veges end up supplementing their diets with fish at least once a month to get the extra vitamins/amino's their bodies need.

I suppose it depends on what it is you're trying to accomplish by going vege. Some people go vege to lose weight, some drink the peta kool-aid, others are looking to change their metabolism.

I might not be the best source of info, but I can offer advice and suggestions from my friend's experience

[tinyj316]

I'll also throw this out there... I find that the best diet, although pricey, is to eat nothing but natural foods (not processed..Organic foods can also be just as bad as processed foods (for a number of reasons, there's plenty of research out there)), and eat a seasonal diet...

Your best bet is to buy your produce from a CSA or from a farmer's market. Many of the farmers use true organic farming methods, but are too small scale to be classified/registered as organic. CSAs are great for getting seasonal veggies, as well as small scale beef and poultry (if you decide you're going vege for sure, then this wouldn't apply, obviously)

[Rani]

Update: Same day I originally posted this I went to the health food store and ended up in discussion with a vegan neighbor. Her recommendatiion was to visit a local nutritionist. So next morning off to the nutritionist who it turns out designs diets based on genetics and heritage. After giving up some blood, and filling out a 6 page family history and questionaire she "prescribed" that I avoid vegetarianism. And she gave me what are reasonable explanations. For those of you who haven't heard me say this about a thousand times, although I don't look it, I'm Native American. Native Americans have never in their history been vegetarian and have always been heavy meat eaters. The only grain traditional in the Native American diet is corn and even that's in very limited quanties because it's mostly used ceremonially. Looking back through my own family history, there has never been a single incidence of heart attack or stroke. Not one is seven generations anywhere on either side of my family history. The nutritionist suggested this signifies a very high tolerance for saturated fat and cholesterol - typical of the ancient diet of my ancestors. However she said also recommended that I go with a glutein free diet because Native American have a low tolerance for glutein. Which certainly explains why I felt wonderful on Atkins a couple years ago. Not so much the high protein, but the avoidance of glutein containing products.

So, now I have a whole other diet I need to investigate. And while I'd love to lose some weight, this for me is really about feeling good and having the energy to do what I want to do in my life. So if anybody knows anything about G-Free, let me know.....Sigh....

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

Update: Same day I originally posted this I went to the health food store and ended up in discussion with a vegan neighbor. Her recommendatiion was to visit a local nutritionist. So next morning off to the nutritionist who it turns out designs diets based on genetics and heritage. After giving up some blood, and filling out a 6 page family history and questionaire she "prescribed" that I avoid vegetarianism. And she gave me what are reasonable explanations. For those of you who haven't heard me say this about a thousand times, although I don't look it, I'm Native American. Native Americans have never in their history been vegetarian and have always been heavy meat eaters. The only grain traditional in the Native American diet is corn and even that's in very limited quanties because it's mostly used ceremonially. Looking back through my own family history, there has never been a single incidence of heart attack or stroke. Not one is seven generations anywhere on either side of my family history. The nutritionist suggested this signifies a very high tolerance for saturated fat and cholesterol - typical of the ancient diet of my ancestors. However she said also recommended that I go with a glutein free diet because Native American have a low tolerance for glutein. Which certainly explains why I felt wonderful on Atkins a couple years ago. Not so much the high protein, but the avoidance of glutein containing products.

So, now I have a whole other diet I need to investigate. And while I'd love to lose some weight, this for me is really about feeling good and having the energy to do what I want to do in my life. So if anybody knows anything about G-Free, let me know.....Sigh....

'Rani

Manoomin not counted as a grain?
They would set you adrift in a burning canoe around here for that.

Something is amiss in the modern diet from an Ndn standpoint. Research tries to say it's sugar, but the pre-white diet in this region had as much as 15% of all caloric intake in the form of maple sugar. Refined wheat proteins (gluten) make sense as something to avoid.

[Rani]

Update: Same day I originally posted this I went to the health food store and ended up in discussion with a vegan neighbor. Her recommendatiion was to visit a local nutritionist. So next morning off to the nutritionist who it turns out designs diets based on genetics and heritage. After giving up some blood, and filling out a 6 page family history and questionaire she "prescribed" that I avoid vegetarianism. And she gave me what are reasonable explanations. For those of you who haven't heard me say this about a thousand times, although I don't look it, I'm Native American. Native Americans have never in their history been vegetarian and have always been heavy meat eaters. The only grain traditional in the Native American diet is corn and even that's in very limited quanties because it's mostly used ceremonially. Looking back through my own family history, there has never been a single incidence of heart attack or stroke. Not one is seven generations anywhere on either side of my family history. The nutritionist suggested this signifies a very high tolerance for saturated fat and cholesterol - typical of the ancient diet of my ancestors. However she said also recommended that I go with a glutein free diet because Native American have a low tolerance for glutein. Which certainly explains why I felt wonderful on Atkins a couple years ago. Not so much the high protein, but the avoidance of glutein containing products.

So, now I have a whole other diet I need to investigate. And while I'd love to lose some weight, this for me is really about feeling good and having the energy to do what I want to do in my life. So if anybody knows anything about G-Free, let me know.....Sigh....

'Rani

Manoomin not counted as a grain?
They would set you adrift in a burning canoe around here for that.

Something is amiss in the modern diet from an Ndn standpoint. Research tries to say it's sugar, but the pre-white diet in this region had as much as 15% of all caloric intake in the form of maple sugar. Refined wheat proteins (gluten) make sense as something to avoid.

What I find incredibly ironic is that I never even thought about being gluten intolerant. But the nutritionist got me thinking and sent me into research on symptoms. My jaw dropped when I read the list. I have more than half of them. Statistics say 1% of the population is gluten intolerent however we all know medical statistics are based on reported (and treated) cases. Apparently a lot of people experience symptoms so mild they would never think to seek treatment from their doctor. So the actual incidents may be much, much higher. So I figure it's worth a try anyway because I have to admit I feel horrible after eating bread or any other gluten food. I just never made the connection before. Because I never looked for it. It also explains why I've gotten sick every time I've tried a vegetarian diet. Veggie diets in general are very, very high in gluten. Because it's in most of the "substitute" foods.

'Rani

[wonder]

Not going to read all of this, but I will say that being completely vegetarian isn't the healthiest thing out there. I know there's supplements and pills to take to keep up with what your body needs but I've always felt that it's best to at least have some sort of meat (especially fish, because who cares about fish anyways) 2-3 times a week. Edited November 13, 2009 by wonder

[Barnaby]

have you read Eat to live by Dr. Fuhrman? http://www.drfuhrman.com/

It goes into details of the science behind a vegetarian diet, and the benefits. Then it goes into a diet plan, that will reap the benefits of it, while still providing all the necessary nutrients your body needs.

Pretty much though, he's going to tell you to eat as much green leafy vegatables as humanly possible, with throwing in as much fruit and other fresh veggies, supplemented with beans, seeds, and whole grains.

The only real deficiency you will have is in B12, which pretty much only comes from meat. You'll need a dietary supplement to fix that if you want to be a true vegan. If you are going to put some animal products, then he's going to say keep it to 10%.

Now, I will say it works great. You'll lose your excess weight, and will feel amazing. However, it is hard to do at first, and the real thing that screws me over trying to switch to something like this, is family. You go, visit, they cook all sorts of shit, and you feel obligated to eat it.

Anywho, its a good read for sure, and shows the science behind it all.

But, if all you are eating is fresh veggies and fruit, that should be gluten free. If you feel the need for bread, I recommend Food for Life breads, as they are all sprouted grain breads, and have no gluten. Really, you should avoid the prepared veggie foods, unless you really have to, as just because they are organic/veggie does NOT make them good for you. Process junk food is still processed junk food, even out of the hippie section of the store.

[Hookie The Hookah]

As a loyal meat eater (except turkey!), I just want to say, plants cry, too.

I was vegan for awhile.

The crucial part is to focus on the essential amino acids. Some of them are quite difficult to find from plant sources.

Eggs are supposed to be quite complete in terms of protein.

The energy increase from Atkins could be just as easily explained by losing weight...it gives quite the spring in your step.

The idea that vegetarians are thinner in some degree is not true, especially with all the processed vegetarian foods that are as bad as their meat counterparts. With the rise of vegetable food-borne illnesses in the past year, its also safe to say the same risks are present in processed non-meat products as meat products. Not to the same degree, of course, but they are still there.

I would avoid soy content. Research it and find out why. The vegetarian camp doesn't seem to acknowledge it, but its probably true nonetheless.

I'm a vegetarian and I came here to say exactly this. Also, I'm assuming that the soy comment is in relation to environmentally UNconscious soybean farmers. I agree, my friends, with one exception, know NOTHING about the craziness going on in other parts of the world...

[antouwan]

Steak is delicious. just my

[Charley]

I mean no disrespect im all for living a healthier lifestyle in principal.

however the way I see it if we were not meant to eat meat then it would not be so tasty.

but the way i see it animals are hard to catch (if your not using modern hunting methods that is.) so while we are meant to eat meat because of the oh so tastyness of it. its something were meant to eat in moderation because if not it would be easier to catch.

and when I say we I mean our ancestors I know us modern humans can just go the store and buy some ground cow ass.

[Hippo_Master]

Rice FTW.

Has to have sauteed mushrooms and beef on it though, naturally.

[Jacob Shock]

^ yep ^

[liquidglass]

While I have never been vegan or vegetarian. (I am a dedicated carnivore, and peta hates me) I honestly think the whole idea of being vegan or vegetarian is nonsense (not to offend anyone that has chosen this particular lifestyle). Of course none of this is to say that people who eat meat are healthier as we can see a lot of people eat much more than they need.

I base this on a few things which most people have mentioned.

- most people that chose the lifestyle do it "for the animals" which offends the natural sense. People in other countries would do anything to have food and we live in a country rich enough so that people can chose to eliminate entire genres of food by choice.

- people in the lifestyle often need other supplements which proves it is not necessarily natural.


But I've said that to say that if a person chooses it simply because they'd like to try another lifestyle or dietary plan and not for 'moral' reasons then I'm all for it as long as they do the research needed.


I applaud you for going to a nutritionist Rani and I'm glad she gave you some information that might help you in the future.

[KvSChad]

Rani I didn't have time to read all the posts because I'm in a hurry but I thought I would quickly suggest trying what I did. Perhaps start out by one week eating meat and the next week only eating as a vegetarian. Maybe continue to do this until you feel comfortable with one diet or the other. Sorry for such a brief answer but if I didnt post this now I would have forgotten.

[Rani]

[quote name='Barnaby' date='14 November 2009 - 07:13 AM' timestamp='1258211622' post='427468']
have you read Eat to live by Dr. Fuhrman? [url="http://www.drfuhrman.com/"]http://www.drfuhrman.com/[/url]

It goes into details of the science behind a vegetarian diet, and the benefits. Then it goes into a diet plan, that will reap the benefits of it, while still providing all the necessary nutrients your body needs.

Pretty much though, he's going to tell you to eat as much green leafy vegatables as humanly possible, with throwing in as much fruit and other fresh veggies, supplemented with beans, seeds, and whole grains.

The only real deficiency you will have is in B12, which pretty much only comes from meat. You'll need a dietary supplement to fix that if you want to be a true vegan. If you are going to put some animal products, then he's going to say keep it to 10%.

Now, I will say it works great. You'll lose your excess weight, and will feel amazing. However, it is hard to do at first, and the real thing that screws me over trying to switch to something like this, is family. You go, visit, they cook all sorts of shit, and you feel obligated to eat it.

Anywho, its a good read for sure, and shows the science behind it all.

But, if all you are eating is fresh veggies and fruit, that should be gluten free. If you feel the need for bread, I recommend Food for Life breads, as they are all sprouted grain breads, and have no gluten. Really, you should avoid the prepared veggie foods, unless you really have to, as just because they are organic/veggie does NOT make them good for you. Process junk food is still processed junk food, even out of the hippie section of the store.
[/quote]

I just finished reading the book for the second time through, and I have to say I can't see myself adopting a diet where the diet doctor himself admits in the book that it's so restrictive most people won't follow it for any length of time. And his counts are off on the protein. I'm hypoglycemic. I know protein requirements backwards and forwards and I've done a ton of research on it. You need .4 grams of protein for every pound of body weight for your body to function. According to his program, 60 grams of protein is enough. But that would work only for someone exactly 150 pounds. (60 / .4 = 150) He also admits his diet is deficient in B12 for example. I would suggest that any diet known from the get go as deficient in a vitamin we can't function properly without is probably not the way to go.

Does that mean all his suppositions are incorrect? No. He says we need 4 servings of fruit every day. I agree - we don't eat enough fruit. He also recommends a full pound of raw vegetables and a full pound of cooked vegetables. I think he's correct. It's obvious most of us don't eat nearly enough vegetables. His premise is that we need much more nutrient dense foods. He's absolutely right. Our modern diet is a mess and the majority of the food we consume are deficient in healthy nutrients. I think too there's a difference between eating meat and what you might call a meat-lovers lifestyle. Adding meat to a healthy plant based diet is completely different from the burger and fries laden meat-lovers lifestyle. Fuhrman looks at the meat-lovers lifestyle and doesn't really address a healthy plant based diet that also contains meat.

There was an article written I saw some time back which answered questions about the paleolithic diet. Also known as the carnivores diet, Neanderthin, etc. The paleo diet says our ancestors were hunter-gatherers and we should eat meat, vegetables, and fruit. Period. With meat being predominant. The articles author who was a doctor argued that in reality our ancestors were gatherers-hunters, in which plant foods would have been predominant. So if we take Dr. Fuhrman's initial observations that we need to dramatically increase plant consumption, add in unaltered meat sources (those with no added chemicals, etc. like bacon), you probably end up with not only a diet for optimal health but one you can live with. Because no matter how good a diet might be, if you can't live on it with reasonable contentment, you're not going to follow it.

So I'm incorporating some of Fuhrmans recommendations. I'm dramatically increasing my fruit and vegetable consumption with a huge salad every day, plus fruit and unlimited cooked vegetables. And then I'm adding in meat. That I think is a program I can live on.

'Rani

[Bulldog_916]

All this talk about meat and veggies makes me wanna go out and barbecue some meat and vegetables. Excuse me.