Health Care Bill

[Rani]

I'm actually quite surprised as to what in it. No wonder the insurance industry fought it so hard. Now it heads to the Senate.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

'Rani

[Hippo_Master]

"House Republicans were nearly unanimous in opposing the plan that would expand coverage to tens of millions of Americans and place tough new restrictions on the insurance industry." .... My favorite line. Seems like that's all I've been hearing all morning on the radio.

There's some great stuff in that bill, but some obvious really shitty stuff in there. Premiums are projected to go UP? Isn't that kind of taking a step backwards? And people MUST carry a health care no matter what - well, obviously a good chunk of people will need it to be free of charge. My taxes will naturally skyrocket. And abortion... We should legally be allowed to kill fetuses - and then use their stem cells. Why? We have enough human beings on the planet as is, one less human being is a good thing.

[destructo]

well you could say "House Democrats were nearly unanimous in supporting the plan that would skyrocket taxes to tens of millions of Americans and place tax increases on the tobacco, alcohol and various other industries." different spin same shit

[FiveSpeedF150]

well you could say "House Democrats were nearly unanimous in supporting the plan that would skyrocket taxes to tens of millions of Americans and place tax increases on the tobacco, alcohol and various other industries." different spin same shit

Yeah, that one sounds about right.

[Rani]

Oh, yeah, they're going to monkey around with it some more, of course they are. But this is the first time it's even gotten out of the House, so that's good news. And I think you're misinformed about abortion. This bill specifically says that federal money will NOT be used for abortion. Which even though I'm pro-choice I agree with. Then it becomes a license for unprotected sex on the public money - not a good thing. The president has said that he won't sign any final bill raising taxes for anyone making under $500k so I can't see average taxes going up. But again we'll see what happens when they finish mucking around with it some more. I'm just glad the idiots are making some progress in forcing the health insurance industry to pony up and be accoountable.

'Rani

[destructo]

this is what i dont get. why are governments special? they dont need balanced budgets, they can print more money when ever (still have to deal with inflation), are above the law and can ignore risk like this. id be fine if they paid for people that couldnt afford it that would normally be covered but i just see it being a total failure when they assume the risk of people that wouldnt be covered. also on the abortion note, i really dont care what people do but im glad they dont cover it because its not a free pass for unprotected sex its a free pass to not learn from mistakes, and people are already stupid enough

[tinyj316]

Destructo, I think you're missing some of the point... Many of the people who "wouldn't be covered" are only in that boat because of how the current laws are set up regarding "pre-existing conditions".

I was hit by a drunk driver 5 years ago. I separated my collarbone and it did a whole mess of damage to my clavicle, and the ligaments and tendons in that area. I almost didn't get health care through my employer due to it being classified this way. I'm in perfectly fine health otherwise (no family history of heart defects, though my dad was just diagnosed with Type 2 Diabeetus). Does this mean that I should not be afforded health care because some jackass decided to fuck my body up for the rest of my life? I'm now in a higher risk category because of something I have no control over. How is that fair to me? I couldn't control that?

[Rani]

What's pissing me off are the Senators who are standing out publically saying, "oh, it's dead in the water" and "we won't get it done this year", and all the other garbage because they don't really have any vested interest in getting it done. They have the best health care available in this country. And they're quietly being lobbied by the insurance industry who likes it just the way it is.

I'm not a proponent of any particular version of health care reform, but I think we can all agree on certain things that need to happen. The insurance industry needs to be chained in and made more accountable, so do that. The uninsured actually cost the public more money so find a way to cover them. We require lawyers to perform a certain amount of pro bono work to maintain their bar association, why can't we do the same for doctors, hospitals and the insurance industry? Just one example. Medicare spending is out of control meanwhile shortchanging those on it. We need to stop that. Basic common sense points need to be handled, but no..... our politicians want to make it into partisan bickering, cronyism, and just general bullshit. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty much fed up with all of them.

Last night I dreamed I was addressing a joint session which I believe under our bylaws any citizen has the right to do if they apply to be put on the calendar. I dreamed that I presented them with millions of signatures demanding that term limits be institued in order to break up the existing brotherhood of "do nothing" for the American people.

I woke up thinking "Yep, I guess I'm really pissed off if I'm dreaming about it". And then I remembered internet petitions that have eventually found their way to our legislators. I don't know how to go about it yet because I've never started a national petition, but I'm going to find a way to get one started. Eventually they'll get wind of it, (especially if they're on the distribution lists) and maybe it will be a wake up call that they need to stop screwing around, get their shit together and act in the best interest of the people they're supposed to serve, or they'll automatically be ousted from office next election if they've already served more than 2 terms. Let's see how they feel about jobs when they don't have one. How about the government health care dropping them because they don't have their jobs anymore? Just like the rest of American workers. I think it's time we went into.....

We're pissed off and we're not taking it anymore! And if you want to keep your job, you're going to quit screwing around and do your job or we'll give others a chance to do better!

And anybody here who might have experience starting internet petitions, speak up and give a girl some guidance.

'Rani

[tinyj316]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q

[tinyj316]

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/

That seems somewhat legit...well, as legit as an online petition can get...

[destructo]

Destructo, I think you're missing some of the point... Many of the people who "wouldn't be covered" are only in that boat because of how the current laws are set up regarding "pre-existing conditions".

I was hit by a drunk driver 5 years ago. I separated my collarbone and it did a whole mess of damage to my clavicle, and the ligaments and tendons in that area. I almost didn't get health care through my employer due to it being classified this way. I'm in perfectly fine health otherwise (no family history of heart defects, though my dad was just diagnosed with Type 2 Diabeetus). Does this mean that I should not be afforded health care because some jackass decided to fuck my body up for the rest of my life? I'm now in a higher risk category because of something I have no control over. How is that fair to me? I couldn't control that?

no i think you are. this has nothing really to do about laws and all to do with math. not to be a dick or anything but the approximate way they do this is as follows:
1) find most of the major risks that you possess
2) gather how much it will cost and the change that it happens
3) if the chance * cost > how much you pay then they dont cover you

since they need to make a profit it will be chance * cost + overhead + whatever profit >= how much you pay

same thing happened with the loans. people had a higher chance of defaulting so the banks raised the interest and gave them subprime loans because they needed to make more money with the increased risk. thats about where the similarities end. fr example i have about 12 fillings. if i were to apply for dental insurance, id turn me down or charge too much for it to be worth it since odds are im going to need dental work. some people just have shit luck. i was born with bad teeth and bad arm bones (broke my arm 3x and my elbow 2x)

[TheScotsman]

Post office
Amtrack
Fanny Mae (just today begging for more money... 15,000,000,000.00)
Freddy Mac (joined fanny today, hitting us up for another 5,000,000,000.00 to stay alive,)
Social Security
Medicare
Medicade



With a track record like those, who would ever want them in control of your Dr? Going to do allot of good for that 10+% unemployment rate... you know, the one our chump-in-chief said wouldn't go over 8% if he got the stimulus... then he changed it to 9.2% now? who knows. Gold spot over 1110$ today, and the market still up? I smell some unholy inflation in our future! Maybe a nice downgrade in our rating in the next year or so. I guess forcing people to buy something against their will sounds like a really good idea!

The USA can't afford this bill. As written it's a 10 year tax programme, with a 5 years of services provided. That is stupid.

As for insurance companies, all that 3.6% average net profit they make on health insurance sure sounds like a big cut, eh?

[Rani]

Post office
Amtrack
Fanny Mae (just today begging for more money... 15,000,000,000.00)
Freddy Mac (joined fanny today, hitting us up for another 5,000,000,000.00 to stay alive,)
Social Security
Medicare
Medicade



With a track record like those, who would ever want them in control of your Dr? Going to do allot of good for that 10+% unemployment rate... you know, the one our chump-in-chief said wouldn't go over 8% if he got the stimulus... then he changed it to 9.2% now? who knows. Gold spot over 1110$ today, and the market still up? I smell some unholy inflation in our future! Maybe a nice downgrade in our rating in the next year or so. I guess forcing people to buy something against their will sounds like a really good idea!

The USA can't afford this bill. As written it's a 10 year tax programme, with a 5 years of services provided. That is stupid.

As for insurance companies, all that 3.6% average net profit they make on health insurance sure sounds like a big cut, eh?

You really think 3.6% is the reality? You can put anything you want on paper based on budgets, etc. I've worked with some of the best CPA's on earth. I wouldn't trust a damn thing they claimed. And they're the ones who taught me not to! Let's just look at AIG for example. Operating expenses include salaries and those unbelievable bonuses they all got. Reduces their "profit" on paper but they were still pulling in billions to be able to give those bonuses out weren't they? And you're still name calling when you and everyone else knows this isn't a presidential problem. This is an idiot Congress and Senate problem who have been so busy playing the game of eternal coworker brotherhood that they no longer even consider doing their job. Bush much as I hated him was only their puppet and eventual scapegoat.

'Rani

[TheScotsman]

If you believe the BS about the healthcare bill being deficit neutral, or that "saved jobs" fuzzy math, then we have to believe the BS about the 3.6% profit margin. We can't be discriminatory about the validity of complete bullshite.

As for calling the Chump in chief such... I listened to years of every liberal fool from Air America to that old battle-axe rosie call conservatives names (oh, wait, they still do). When the screecher-of-the-house says there are swastikas at a tea party, and conservatives are Nazis... I can call obummer such. One turn deserves a return, really, if they expect respect, they need to give the same... and there is damn little chance of seeing a modicum of respect from the likes of LSD-NBC, or albert frankenstein. The idiot congress just happens to be of a party lead by the one and only obamessiah. He owns their actions, like it or not. Do you really think the screecher would ever let anything come up to a vote if he told her it was a no go?

[Rani]

If you believe the BS about the healthcare bill being deficit neutral, or that "saved jobs" fuzzy math, then we have to believe the BS about the 3.6% profit margin. We can't be discriminatory about the validity of complete bullshite.

As for calling the Chump in chief such... I listened to years of every liberal fool from Air America to that old battle-axe rosie call conservatives names (oh, wait, they still do). When the screecher-of-the-house says there are swastikas at a tea party, and conservatives are Nazis... I can call obummer such. One turn deserves a return, really, if they expect respect, they need to give the same... and there is damn little chance of seeing a modicum of respect from the likes of LSD-NBC, or albert frankenstein. The idiot congress just happens to be of a party lead by the one and only obamessiah. He owns their actions, like it or not. Do you really think the screecher would ever let anything come up to a vote if he told her it was a no go?

Here's what I believe..... I believe "facts" can be spun and slanted to reinforce the opinion and position of the person quoting them. I believe the Republican party is drastically flawed in that they entirely disempower the American people by reporting directly to big business and the God Almighty profit margin. I believe the Democratic party is equally flawed because under the guise of "helping" they disempower the American people by acting on our behalf without any real understanding of what's important to us because "they know better". Democrats don't believe we're smart enough to govern ourselves, the Republicans just want us out of the way so they can increase their personal fortunes. What I expect of a president is that he (or she eventually) be reasonable to discussion and negotiation and balance between the two parties. That's why we have the job as part of our system. If they obviously lean too far to their own party not only are they not doing their job, but they will end up being scapegoats and left hung out to dry by their party. Witness the quiet withdrawal of the Republican party during the worst of Bush. They left him standing out there alone holding the bag they created and filled. They might not have overtly thrown him to the wolves but they sure did stand back when the wolves came hunting. I further expect a president to be likable and charismatic enough to be able to bring the rest of the world to the negotiation table rather than alienate every other nation on the planet. I expect a president to shoulder the flack and be thoughtful and investigatory before making decisions committing us to actions we cannot take back. Republicans are yelling because Obama is taking too long to decide about Afghanistan. I applaud him because he's showing awareness that American lives are on the line and he's looking at every angle. I expect that of a decent president - to consider that his actions and decisions affect a multitude of lives and to make the decisons based on his own best judgement and conscience.

Health care reform has been an issue for nearly half a century. Health care as it exists in this country is a royal mess. It's screwed up. We all know it's screwed up, but since Truman they've been avoiding fixing it because one side catered to the business of the medical and insurance industries and they other side thought we were too stupid to know what we were misisng out on and deserve. Anyway you look at it, the American people are the ones being screwed and who's at the helm is nothing more than a matter of personal preference. The actual power of a president is quite small compared to the House and Senate. If you compare what the citizens of other nations get for their tax dollars we are so far behind them it's ridiculous. We get very, very little in comparison. And I believe the heart of the problem should be directly laid at the feet of our House and Senate and not any president. Health care reform is only one step that's necessary to correct the imbalance.

Bush was an idiot. Some people should just not be allowed to speak in public. He was too obviously the mouthpiece of his party (as every president must be to some extent) and he put his foot in his mouth so many times you could see people physically moving away from him during his speeches. I think Obama is a man of personal conscience and integrity. I believe in historical context he will turn out to have been good for the country however I also believe men and women of personal conscience and integrity have a very difficult job in the political arena because they are a rarity and have a very tough time getting cooperation from our corrupt majority of politicians in all parties. I believe he's getting more negative judgement than is reasonable because things were so very bad when he stepped into office and the frustration of the people is that they wanted recovery to be much faster than it's logical or possible to be. I also believe the Republican party is taking advantage of the frustration to distract the American people from further investigating the mess they so strongly contributed to. One of the more positive aspects of this last depression is that it's galvanized the American people who now want to understand what went wrong and who's responsible. It's made a huge number of us more politically active.

Finally, I believe we need a major overhaul of our system. I honestly believe the institution of term limits is the first step of many we need to make to effectively demand our politicians are accountable directly to the people. Unless you're prepared for intensive and often unavailable research you can't even find out how many days your particular Senator or Representative reported to work and how they voted on the issues that concern you. The most important thing I want from them is greater accountability and I want the old boy network that keeps them in office abolished. The fastest most effective way to accomplish that is through term limits. Am I going to get it? Probably no, not in my lifetime. But as someone I worked for once said, "Just because something seems impossible isn't an excuse to not strive for it."

'Rani

[fcbayern]

Sorry I didnt read all of the posts, but I would like to give my oMFinion (as usual).

I think that spending millions of dollars on providing health care for everyone is a mistake. Having our govnt pay for everyones health care at the current rediculous prices, is just going to cost me and you way too much tax dollars. I think what needs to be done is make health care affordable for everyone. If the prices of healthcare werent so crazy, many more people could affford it.

For example, my wife went to the hospital a few weeks ago with the flu and was dehydrated. We were there for less than 4 hours, of which we saw a doctor for 10 minutes. He told us what we already knew (she was dehydrated, and needed IV fluids). I got the bill the other day the hospital charged $12000. of which my insurance paid them $8500, for 4 hours in the hospital with an IV. The doctor charged $1000. for his 10 minutes of work.

Again this is my oMFinion, and it goes against all I believe capitalism to be, but I think we need to regulate how much doctors and hospitals are charging. I think this has gotten so far out of control because of the actual health insurance companies. In my example, I could care less what the hospital charges, because I only pay my $100 co payment and I'm done. But I am also smart enought to figure that those $8500 have to come from somewhere.

I guess in short what I'm trying to say is one way or another (Govnt Health care or Health Insurance) the money eventually will come from our pockets. The question is how much money..

Thanks for listening

[TheScotsman]

The aspect of the bill that seems to miss the sheeple-

It's not about healthcare.

insurance companies invest their income into short-term usually high yeild (read risk) stocks, and long term "safer" vehicles, usually utilities or muni bonds. This isn't about getting you any healthcare, it's about a defacto law forcing you to invest more into the stock market, and failing municipal bonds. Wall street is salivating at the possibility of seeing all those new dollars. Forcing people to buy something never, in history, caused the cost to fall. What moron would think it would now?

Now, not only will you be forced to buy something, it will be a criminal act to not buy it, and there is a jail penalty for not buying it.

So, let's get this straight, we have a gov't that will let the illegals in, harbor them, grant them aid, but prosecute it's own citizens for not buying something?


Ready to spend $15,000/year on insurance, or go to jail, and have a felony conviction? You voted for them.... I didn't.