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[Barnaby]

Its not about telling people how to run a business. Its about common decency. When in a publicly shared space, you have to give up some amount of freedom, because you are not around people who share the same viewpoints with you. Out in public, that's neutral ground. You have to mesh with people of different backgrounds, races, beliefs, etc. So, in order to be a decent person, you have to tone it back some, as not to interfere with others.

Its all about respect, and not being a dick to others. Personally, I find it very arrogant that anyone could even consider lighting up a cigarette around others, who are not smokers. Even outdoors when I did smoke, I would not do it around non smokers. I would alteast have the decency to not be that close, as I know that smoking is EXTREMELY offensive to non smokers. Its polite. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Besides, do you really think a restaurant is going to lose any business if EVERY single restaurant is non smoking? Fuck no. The smokers are still going to want to eat out, and they'll just light up when they leave. It'll be a slight adjustment, but it will be business as usual.

Tell you what... How about I share my love of garlic with you. We'll go to the same restaurant, and we'll sit at tables next to each other. I'll eat a whole fucking bulb, so you can smell that shit coming out of my pores from a mile away. Then you'll get to smell my horrendous noxious garlic farts that I get too. This is my personal lifestyle choice that I will force you to share, while we are in a public setting.. Sounds fucking great doesn't it? Smokers are the same way in a restaurant. They don't give a shit, who's near them, and how horribly nasty it is for everyone else. But its their american right to do, so fuck you for wanting them to keep their evasive nasty habits to themselves, and have some goddamn courtesy to wait fucking 5 minutes after their done to go light up in the parking lot..

It sucks that you have to make stupid laws to enforce common courtesy like this, but at the end of the day, not everyone is raised to think that way. If everyone simply respected each other, maybe more people would think to themselves that being a loud mouthed braggart is not a way to be a decent member of society.

but whatever.... I'll just go wave my american flag, and yell "dey took our jobs!!" in my best stereotypical redneck voice I can muster.



As a point here, I am not making light of the original subject matter of mushrat's hookah bar looking to be shut down due to improper, badly written legislation that should be changed to reflect what the point of a hookah bar is, and by entering one there will be smoke. That's fine, and those assholes need to fix is ASAP. Cigarette smoking in public venues, however, needs to go away. Be nice to be able to go to the local club in town that has MANY MANY great local bands that I've love to show my support to, but don't' want to go in because every drunk asshole is smoking like a fucking chimney, and I can't stand to be in there for more than 3 minutes. but I digress...

Someone needs to come up with a better air purifier that just removes the smoke directly from a person's lungs, ala the poop cleanup device in the recent family guy episode of "guide to the multiverse". Then we wouldn't be on here bickering on the internet like a bunch of losers..

[mushrat]

all government does is take away freedoms. granted, i don't think anyone should have the 'freedom' to walk outside and shoot the first person he sees but my point is simply, when was the last time you recalled the government passing a law that gave you a freedom?

It's not that the government is in the business of taking away freedoms, per se, they're in the business of deciding whose freedoms are more important. Unfortunately, the freedoms of the wealthy and the whiners take precedence over those of everyone else.

It brings up an interesting question. Most of these anti-smoking innitiatives are fought on the grounds of public health, right? So is this really an issue of public health or is it just another case of loud-mouthed conservatives trying to force their way of life onto everyone else?

I think its more of a problem with old, out of touch law makers getting together to try and fix a problem they don't fully understand. While I fully agree that restaurants should be non smoking, as being a non smoker, the last thing I want myself, my wife, and my 2 kids to experience is someone puffing away a fucking cancer stick, while we're trying to eat. IF they had a closed, ventilated room for the smokers, that's cool as long as it worked and I didn't smell it..

But on that same token, if I go to a hookah bar, tobacco store, cigar shop, etc.. I FULLY expect to be in a closed room with smoke.. period.. Those are the points of those establishments, and as such its completely asanine to force a ban in these circumstances..

Now, like I said.. The majority of the people making these laws, probably don't even know what a hookah is.. So, why make the exception.. They see it as a restaurant, that you can smoke in.. Not a tobacco orientated establishment...

Can't wait until all these old ass bastards in government die off so we can get some younger blood that maybe would be slightly more educated.

so, who drags you and the wife and kids to a restaurant that allows smoking? Im sure you were forced to go to that place where you expose your kids to smoke right? I mean, if you really were bothered by it you wouldn't take them to a place that has smoking.

OR is it a matter of you wanting to tell the owner of the place how to run their business?? I get really tired of hearign people who voluntarily expose themselves and their kids to smoke by going to a restaurant that allows smoking and then bitch about being exposed to the smoke. If you don't want to be around cigarette smoke while you eat, DON'T GO TO THAT RESTAURANT! simple and it doesn't try to push your will on the guy/gal who has put their time and effort into opening and running a business.

I'm sure there are smoke free places you can take the family to, spend your money there. If the owner of a place that does allow smoking sees their income falling as people go someplace smoke free then let THEM decide to go smoke free as well. If they are doign enough business with people who some or don't mind being around smoke them let them continue to do business the way THEY want to. People who go to a business they know allows smokign are just like people who go to a hookah or cigar bar. They are making an informed choice. So instead of saying you think its ok to ban smoking in bars or restaurants because you dont want to be exposed to it or expose your kids....just don't go there!

I'm in Virginia. Every restaurant allows smoking, except for fast food restaurants. And I'm not talking about individually owned restaurants. This is in all the chains too. There is simply not an option to get food, that doesn't expose you to smoking, save maybe 3 privately owned restaurants. I go to those restaurants more often obviously, but is it right that I'm forced to go to a total of 3 restaurants that are completely non smoking in my area?

You go to a restaurant to eat food. Smoking is a private choice, but once you light up in an enclosed area that includes people who do not share the same life choices as you, it ceases to be a private choice, doesn't it? I'm all about individual freedom. I don't give a shit what you do, as long as it does not harm others. If you light up in a restaurant, where not everyone is a smoker, then you are forcing someone to partake in your personal choice. On the flip side, is there harm being done on the smoker by not letting them smoke inside a place that has mixed company of smokers/non smoker? Are they being mistreated? Generally I'd say yes, as you are telling someone what they can and cannot do. But because smoking a cigarette is not something that can be contained, and invades other peoples personal space, then I then so no. More harm is done by letting a smoker light up in an place with non smokers, vs not letting them. They can go outside after they're done, and light up. They are being "harmed" less than the non smoker having to sit around them inhaling that nasty shit when they don't want to.

Common decency? how about common sense? DON'T go to a restaurant where they do things you don't like. A little personal responsibility would be a refreshing change. besides, you miss the whole point. This is private business. The government should have no say in a private business as long as what it does is legal. Only 3 places to eat aroudn you and they all allow smoking, tough, you don' like the smoke, cook your own dinner. Where would you be if those places decided they didn't like the government interfereing in their private lives and closed their places leaving you with nothing eh? You think hookahs are safe to smoke? once the government can tell a business owner what they can and can't do in their business, it's only a matter of time before they start telling you what you can and cant do in your HOME. All for your own good of course. So no smoking in your home. Oh and how about those fatty foods? More people die from complecations from being over weight than from 1st or 2nd hand smoke, so for your own good you can't smoke in your house, you can't have those burgers with the mayo and cheese, and those donuts, right out. Once we accept the governments "right" to limit what we do for the sake of "our own good" we stop being able to decide whats for our own good.

So again I say, if you don't liek the smoke in a restaurant, and the place still seems busy, DON'T GO. it's not like you have a right to eat in a certain restaurant, and you sure as hell dont have the right to tell the owner how to run their place. Go open a smoke free restaurant. Clearly if enough people feel the way you do, you'll make a fortune. But i suggest a back up plan...

[Arcane]

Its not about telling people how to run a business. Its about common decency. When in a publicly shared space, you have to give up some amount of freedom, because you are not around people who share the same viewpoints with you. Out in public, that's neutral ground. You have to mesh with people of different backgrounds, races, beliefs, etc. So, in order to be a decent person, you have to tone it back some, as not to interfere with others.

well, if its a private business...then it's not really "public". if you're not telling how a person should run their business, then i'm not sure what you're doing. i understand what you mean about common decency, but that isn't up to the owner to enforce that...especially if he allows smoking in his restaurant.

Its all about respect, and not being a dick to others. Personally, I find it very arrogant that anyone could even consider lighting up a cigarette around others, who are not smokers. Even outdoors when I did smoke, I would not do it around non smokers. I would alteast have the decency to not be that close, as I know that smoking is EXTREMELY offensive to non smokers. Its polite. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

again, you should be fighting the customers...not the business owner.

Besides, do you really think a restaurant is going to lose any business if EVERY single restaurant is non smoking? Fuck no. The smokers are still going to want to eat out, and they'll just light up when they leave. It'll be a slight adjustment, but it will be business as usual.

If every single restaurant went to non-smoking...there may be some business lost....but probably not a lot. Especially for those that would rather smoke and dine than not. But, that still doesn't change the fact that government is telling a business owner how to run their business. Let's say I own a business and allow smoking in my establishment...but, the rest of the business owners decide (on their own free will) to ban smoking in their business. That's perfectly fine. As long as I get to choose how I run my business, I could care less what the rest of the other business owners do. Now, if I see my profits take a hit because of the smoking...then I'd consider it. But, I don't want to have to be forced to change unless I want to!

Tell you what... How about I share my love of garlic with you. We'll go to the same restaurant, and we'll sit at tables next to each other. I'll eat a whole fucking bulb, so you can smell that shit coming out of my pores from a mile away. Then you'll get to smell my horrendous noxious garlic farts that I get too. This is my personal lifestyle choice that I will force you to share, while we are in a public setting.. Sounds fucking great doesn't it? Smokers are the same way in a restaurant. They don't give a shit, who's near them, and how horribly nasty it is for everyone else. But its their american right to do, so fuck you for wanting them to keep their evasive nasty habits to themselves, and have some goddamn courtesy to wait fucking 5 minutes after their done to go light up in the parking lot..

Now, here's the thing...if you FORCE me to go to a restaurant with you...then yeah, I definitely have a problem with that. However, if you decide to eat out at a restaurant that serves massive amounts of garlic and I don't like garlic or garlic farts...you know what I'd do? EAT SOMEWHERE ELSE!!! Like mushy said, nobody is forcing you to go to that restaurant. YOU made that choice.

[indian_villager]

Anything I could do to help? You were rather hospitable and your place was awesome so anything I could do?

[Barnaby]

How is that fair to anyone who doesn't want to smoke at a restaurant? Either way, someone loses. I know damn well that almost everything I take into my body on a daily basis is toxic, and I shouldn't.. But, I do anyway, for a multitude of reasons.. But at the end of the day, its my personal choice.

Believe me, I can see both sides of this argument. And if there were a fair share of smoking vs. non smoking establishments, sure. Make it a business choice. But in the areas that do not have that much selection, what do you do? Would you say that the good of the many is more important than the few? The few being the smokers, who are a minority here. Or do you just say fuck it, allow smoking, and exploit the demographic? At the end of the day, that is what happens isn't it? Smokers hang out longer, will drink more, etc. They are a better customer. So, you exploit that. This is also one of the problems I had in deciding to open my own hookah lounge. Do I profit on selling a dangerous, harmful product to the public? What kind of person does that make me? Am I any better than the common drug dealer? I'm not saying I would've felt that bad about it, but it did come across my mind. And I'm not making that slight against you mushrat. I probably wouldn't have had issue with it, but doesn't that ever cross your mind as well? Sure, its people's choice to come and do it, but at the end of the day, you are providing it. You're enabling it. I dunno.. Just one of the many considerations I had when it was coming time to go ahead with it. Really the 2 deciding factors for me, was the upcoming tobacco ban in December, and of course my main investor falling out, due to medical issues. Even if I got the money, I'd be were you are now.

Really when it comes down to it, the majority of the restaurants will allow smoking, because of the possibility of improved revenue. Cater to a niche part of the populace, as they will be in your restaurant longer. They are the ones that pack your bars, and give you a big boost off of alcohol sales. They will hang out longer, give you the opportunity to upsale more items.

Is this any different than any other corporation cutting corners to save a buck, and make more profit? Do you object to the dumping of toxic chemicals into the rivers and lakes? Or what about car companies not recalling a vehicle, because its cheaper to just pay off lawsuits? Is this really about freedom of personal choice, or it is about businesses being able to make an easier buck? Edited November 20, 2009 by Barnaby