Brass Hookahs?

[Jacob Shock]

question guys?

ive heard in another thread that brass hookahs "oxidise" because of the air, and you have to wash them out before ever session. is this true. never owned a brass hookah. dou you need to treat them diferntly than a stainless steel hookah?

[Zinite]

I just wash mine out as normal - no issues.

[NIGHTS OF BAGHDAD]

not sure how washing it before each session instead of after each session protects it so i hope we get someone who knows what there talking about to clarify..

[Jacob Shock]

not sure how washing it before each session instead of after each session protects it so i hope we get someone who knows what there talking about to clarify..

me too. its new hookah time in my house and im liking the temsah wheet hookah alot, as well as a few KM's

[foibled again]

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. It has a lower melting temperature and is more malleable than copper which is why it is preferred in the applications it is popular in. Zinc is also what gives brass it's yellowish color. There are different grades of brass, including some that have aluminum content. Lead is no longer allowed in brass in the US but can be present in foreign made brass in low concentrations as it aids in making the brass even more malleable.

Brass reacts to oxygen much in the same fashion as copper, IOW it forms a passivating layer of copper carbonate. This passivating layer is what reduces the permeability of oxygen to the underlying copper base to prevent further oxidation. I do not recommend regular cleaning with acid or base liquids or scrubbing with metal brushes as that can strip away that oxidation layer allowing it oxidize more. Water and a nylon or bristle brush is what I would recommend instead. Vertigris is that greenish stuff that develops and is mildly toxic which is why a brass or copper stem should be cleaned out prior to smoking. Brass is also susceptible to dezincification but the degree to which it is and how readily it occurs is dependent on the zinc to copper ratios and the conditions present at the surface of the metal as zinc has one of the highest electrical potentials of commonly used metals. Zinc oxide is technically clear and appears white but in brass it will leave the metal brownish/reddish because of higher surface levels of copper.

I would be more careful when handling a stem with a brass or copper stem tube as opposed to a stainless steel one.

[Vladimir]

That was my thread!

I assume cleaning PRIOR to smoking as important because unlike other metals that rust, oxidation will happen due to exposure to air- meaning you leave your hookah for a few days and it may (at least theoretically) oxidize.

[foibled again]

Don't worry about it much as the water in the base will filter it during sessions. My recommendations are more for getting the most life out of a brass or copper tubed stem.

[NIGHTS OF BAGHDAD]

thanx for the info, i really dont wana worry about this type of stuff so i will make sure i never buy a hookah that has a brass stem

[Sonthert]

Your loss. Brass pipes are the best. In my opinion.

Verdigris is a number of chemicals, whether green or bluish-grey. It can be a carbonate, an acetate, a chloride or any other anionic slt of copper that would be normally found in seawater or groundwater. It is most commonly copper carbonate and copper hydroxide or copper carbonate and hydroxide from water. It can be toxic, which is why carbonated water units for soda machines have to be air-gapped to prevent backflow of carbonated water into copper water systems. I should just add that copper pipes for water supply have been used for a long, long, long time without deleterious effects. Its likely your house has copper pipes in, to bring water to your faucet. Its virtually probable that there is carbonate in the water you are drinking, too. All the right components to make copper carbonate. There it is...inside those water pipes running into your house. Your drinking it! America has some of the highest standards for potable water in the world and they still allow the use of copper pipes without any asterisks or concerns...outside of carbonated water applications. If you can drink water from it, I would imagine that the toxic effects of passing a gas through it would be of little consequence. Copper carbonate is also used in some water purification application, I don't remember which, but its used safely and effectively. I should just add that copper is a nutrient that is necessary in all living creatures. Some very old creatures actually use it instead of hemoglobin (The extremely ancient members of the Xiphosura order of arthropods comes to mind). Copper is necessary for life, in short. We would all die quickly without it. It used to be a law or a strict rule or something that sterling silver contains a percentage of copper to protect the health of those people using it. It might have been only for forks, spoons, tableware, I'm a little foggy on that one. That dates back to the early 90s when I was your guys' age in precious metals reclamation. In fact, I think the name Sterling Silver means it has to have copper in it, as pure silver is more poisonous than copper.

This hysteria about copper pipes is absolute crap. They're absolutely safe. I guess the wackos and their fearmongering about aluminum have decided to pick on some other metal. Next stop: Magnesium...avoid it! Its inflammable.

I think what needs to be recognized is tradition. It is well known that lead is poisonous. Its been known for millenia. Thats why there is no lead flatware. There is no pewter flatware. Its not used, because its poisonous. We didn't suddenly just become brilliant and recognize the hazards of copper. Its ignorant people with nothing better to do than run around making everyone miserable and scared. Ignorant people look for reasons for things to be wrong and they can only go after the easiest things they know about...whats on the periodic table. Copper is safe. Its been safe for thousands of years, it'll be safe for thousands more. I have been telling people for years that vitamin C and benzoates (forming benzene) were poisonous and shouldn't be put in soft drinks together. Finally, industry has caught up with the curve and thats why many soft drinks (and energy drinks) have been reformulated to not include one or the other. Most opted to stop including Vitamin C. Hansens opted to stop including Benzoates...a rocking decision. Benzoates are mostly pointless anyways. I'm watching these things closely, all the time. Its my thing. I'm ten times as paranoid about chemicals as any normal person should be. I also know when an idiot tells me copper or aluminum isn't safe, that I call him on it. Before the internet, there was no forum for crackpots and people who had heard god's voice that told them copper was dangerous. When somebody makes an unsubstantiated claim, call them on it. If it goes against logic or runs against society's understanding of the universe, investigate the claim.

As Franklin Delano Roosevelt said: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Same applies here.

[Vladimir]

Eric approves, I no longer doubt my choice in hookah .

[foibled again]

Yes, there are several different forms of vertigris but under the conditions that exist in hookahs, copper carbonate is the most abundant to be formed. Copper hydroxide is also in abundance (equally formed actually) but it isn't as stable and will form copper carbonate when exposed to carbon dioxide from air. You know this better than I do Eric, and this post is for further clarification of what has been said in this thread.

When copper pipe is properly sized it is perfectly safe for potable water use because the of passivating oxidation layer it forms. Undersized copper pipes found in many older buildings are not safe and develop leaks quite often. This is because the higher water pressures they see continuously erodes that oxidation layer. You do drink copper from water because of copper pipes but typically in very trace amounts, which is perfectly fine for you. Ingestion of copper in higher amounts is certainly not good for you and does have symptoms associated with it like nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, cramps, etc. There is a good reason why the EPA limits copper concentration for public drinking water.

Vlad, I told you in chat that exposure to air is sufficient for oxidation and that the same holds true for rust. Rust is specifically the oxidation of iron. Copper is not unlike other metals in that regard. You want that initial layer to form as it's what protects the metal. It's what makes aluminum, copper, brass, nickel, stainless steel, etc. "rust-proof". Really don't worry about it much. The Temsaah you bought is a good one. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have recommended it to you.

FWIW, I prefer stainless steel stem tubes. The only performance advantage brass or copper would have that I think applies to a hookah is a better cooling ability. The thermal conductivity of copper is about 1.5 times higher than aluminum, 3.5 times higher than brass, and about 23 times higher than austenitic stainless steels. Personally I think it's negligible as the water in the base levels the playing field. I'd rather have the strength and durability advantages of stainless steel in a good hookah. In a shitty one though, I'd prefer brass or copper because it's cheaper and easier to repair/rebuild ...

Maybe I'm explaining too much or something but not everything I'm saying seems to be getting read as intended. I know somebody here is going to take what I post and run with it saying copper is bad for you; it's inevitable. Copper and brass hookahs are safe for you. So is aluminum. In fact, abuse it and don't take any of my recommendations if you want, it's not going to kill you assuming you aren't doing something like chewing and swallowing the stuff. Hookah smoke will kill you long before any copper you might inhale from smoking one. My explanations in my previous post were specifically to respond to the OP, IOW to explain what oxidation is and how to treat brass or copper tubed stems differently than stainless steel if you want to prolong the life of them.

[NIGHTS OF BAGHDAD]

Your loss. Brass pipes are the best. In my opinion.

Verdigris is a number of chemicals, whether green or bluish-grey. It can be a carbonate, an acetate, a chloride or any other anionic slt of copper that would be normally found in seawater or groundwater. It is most commonly copper carbonate and copper hydroxide or copper carbonate and hydroxide from water. It can be toxic, which is why carbonated water units for soda machines have to be air-gapped to prevent backflow of carbonated water into copper water systems. I should just add that copper pipes for water supply have been used for a long, long, long time without deleterious effects. Its likely your house has copper pipes in, to bring water to your faucet. Its virtually probable that there is carbonate in the water you are drinking, too. All the right components to make copper carbonate. There it is...inside those water pipes running into your house. Your drinking it! America has some of the highest standards for potable water in the world and they still allow the use of copper pipes without any asterisks or concerns...outside of carbonated water applications. If you can drink water from it, I would imagine that the toxic effects of passing a gas through it would be of little consequence. Copper carbonate is also used in some water purification application, I don't remember which, but its used safely and effectively. I should just add that copper is a nutrient that is necessary in all living creatures. Some very old creatures actually use it instead of hemoglobin (The extremely ancient members of the Xiphosura order of arthropods comes to mind). Copper is necessary for life, in short. We would all die quickly without it. It used to be a law or a strict rule or something that sterling silver contains a percentage of copper to protect the health of those people using it. It might have been only for forks, spoons, tableware, I'm a little foggy on that one. That dates back to the early 90s when I was your guys' age in precious metals reclamation. In fact, I think the name Sterling Silver means it has to have copper in it, as pure silver is more poisonous than copper.

This hysteria about copper pipes is absolute crap. They're absolutely safe. I guess the wackos and their fearmongering about aluminum have decided to pick on some other metal. Next stop: Magnesium...avoid it! Its inflammable.

I think what needs to be recognized is tradition. It is well known that lead is poisonous. Its been known for millenia. Thats why there is no lead flatware. There is no pewter flatware. Its not used, because its poisonous. We didn't suddenly just become brilliant and recognize the hazards of copper. Its ignorant people with nothing better to do than run around making everyone miserable and scared. Ignorant people look for reasons for things to be wrong and they can only go after the easiest things they know about...whats on the periodic table. Copper is safe. Its been safe for thousands of years, it'll be safe for thousands more. I have been telling people for years that vitamin C and benzoates (forming benzene) were poisonous and shouldn't be put in soft drinks together. Finally, industry has caught up with the curve and thats why many soft drinks (and energy drinks) have been reformulated to not include one or the other. Most opted to stop including Vitamin C. Hansens opted to stop including Benzoates...a rocking decision. Benzoates are mostly pointless anyways. I'm watching these things closely, all the time. Its my thing. I'm ten times as paranoid about chemicals as any normal person should be. I also know when an idiot tells me copper or aluminum isn't safe, that I call him on it. Before the internet, there was no forum for crackpots and people who had heard god's voice that told them copper was dangerous. When somebody makes an unsubstantiated claim, call them on it. If it goes against logic or runs against society's understanding of the universe, investigate the claim.

As Franklin Delano Roosevelt said: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Same applies here.

its also my loss that i will never get to enjoy original tangiers due to acclimating but ive learned to live and move on to lucid..lol

[Jacob Shock]

Eric approves, I no longer doubt my choice in hookah .

LOL same here.

[Arcane]

Eric, Walt.....love you guys, but i'm never gonna join a conversation with you...

i'll get a massive buzz from all the information you guys blab about...not to mention, i have no idea what the hell you two just said in this thread

[Jacob Shock]

Your loss. Brass pipes are the best. In my opinion.

Verdigris is a number of chemicals, whether green or bluish-grey. It can be a carbonate, an acetate, a chloride or any other anionic slt of copper that would be normally found in seawater or groundwater. It is most commonly copper carbonate and copper hydroxide or copper carbonate and hydroxide from water. It can be toxic, which is why carbonated water units for soda machines have to be air-gapped to prevent backflow of carbonated water into copper water systems. I should just add that copper pipes for water supply have been used for a long, long, long time without deleterious effects. Its likely your house has copper pipes in, to bring water to your faucet. Its virtually probable that there is carbonate in the water you are drinking, too. All the right components to make copper carbonate. There it is...inside those water pipes running into your house. Your drinking it! America has some of the highest standards for potable water in the world and they still allow the use of copper pipes without any asterisks or concerns...outside of carbonated water applications. If you can drink water from it, I would imagine that the toxic effects of passing a gas through it would be of little consequence. Copper carbonate is also used in some water purification application, I don't remember which, but its used safely and effectively. I should just add that copper is a nutrient that is necessary in all living creatures. Some very old creatures actually use it instead of hemoglobin (The extremely ancient members of the Xiphosura order of arthropods comes to mind). Copper is necessary for life, in short. We would all die quickly without it. It used to be a law or a strict rule or something that sterling silver contains a percentage of copper to protect the health of those people using it. It might have been only for forks, spoons, tableware, I'm a little foggy on that one. That dates back to the early 90s when I was your guys' age in precious metals reclamation. In fact, I think the name Sterling Silver means it has to have copper in it, as pure silver is more poisonous than copper.

This hysteria about copper pipes is absolute crap. They're absolutely safe. I guess the wackos and their fearmongering about aluminum have decided to pick on some other metal. Next stop: Magnesium...avoid it! Its inflammable.

I think what needs to be recognized is tradition. It is well known that lead is poisonous. Its been known for millenia. Thats why there is no lead flatware. There is no pewter flatware. Its not used, because its poisonous. We didn't suddenly just become brilliant and recognize the hazards of copper. Its ignorant people with nothing better to do than run around making everyone miserable and scared. Ignorant people look for reasons for things to be wrong and they can only go after the easiest things they know about...whats on the periodic table. Copper is safe. Its been safe for thousands of years, it'll be safe for thousands more. I have been telling people for years that vitamin C and benzoates (forming benzene) were poisonous and shouldn't be put in soft drinks together. Finally, industry has caught up with the curve and thats why many soft drinks (and energy drinks) have been reformulated to not include one or the other. Most opted to stop including Vitamin C. Hansens opted to stop including Benzoates...a rocking decision. Benzoates are mostly pointless anyways. I'm watching these things closely, all the time. Its my thing. I'm ten times as paranoid about chemicals as any normal person should be. I also know when an idiot tells me copper or aluminum isn't safe, that I call him on it. Before the internet, there was no forum for crackpots and people who had heard god's voice that told them copper was dangerous. When somebody makes an unsubstantiated claim, call them on it. If it goes against logic or runs against society's understanding of the universe, investigate the claim.

As Franklin Delano Roosevelt said: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Same applies here.

its also my loss that i will never get to enjoy original tangiers due to acclimating but ive learned to live and move on to lucid..lol

your missing something special.

[Sonthert]

Yeah, true, Walt.

It would be salient to say that too much of anything is bad for you. There are listed lethal doses for iron, copper and lead...its just the lead numbers are a lot lower than copper or iron.

I had a new brass pipe recently that had a dirty, metallic flavor to it for several weeks. The metallic flavor finally subsided. I finally decided, after talking it over with Walt last night, that it was because it was fresh copper that hadn't had a chance to build up an oxide layer. Thats just my theory, anyhow.

[Chreees]

I saw a bunch of fucking text and I stopped reading the thread... Lol.

In other words, Eric and Walt win...

/endthread.

[Rani]

Your loss. Brass pipes are the best. In my opinion.

Verdigris is a number of chemicals, whether green or bluish-grey. It can be a carbonate, an acetate, a chloride or any other anionic slt of copper that would be normally found in seawater or groundwater. It is most commonly copper carbonate and copper hydroxide or copper carbonate and hydroxide from water. It can be toxic, which is why carbonated water units for soda machines have to be air-gapped to prevent backflow of carbonated water into copper water systems. I should just add that copper pipes for water supply have been used for a long, long, long time without deleterious effects. Its likely your house has copper pipes in, to bring water to your faucet. Its virtually probable that there is carbonate in the water you are drinking, too. All the right components to make copper carbonate. There it is...inside those water pipes running into your house. Your drinking it! America has some of the highest standards for potable water in the world and they still allow the use of copper pipes without any asterisks or concerns...outside of carbonated water applications. If you can drink water from it, I would imagine that the toxic effects of passing a gas through it would be of little consequence. Copper carbonate is also used in some water purification application, I don't remember which, but its used safely and effectively. I should just add that copper is a nutrient that is necessary in all living creatures. Some very old creatures actually use it instead of hemoglobin (The extremely ancient members of the Xiphosura order of arthropods comes to mind). Copper is necessary for life, in short. We would all die quickly without it. It used to be a law or a strict rule or something that sterling silver contains a percentage of copper to protect the health of those people using it. It might have been only for forks, spoons, tableware, I'm a little foggy on that one. That dates back to the early 90s when I was your guys' age in precious metals reclamation. In fact, I think the name Sterling Silver means it has to have copper in it, as pure silver is more poisonous than copper.

This hysteria about copper pipes is absolute crap. They're absolutely safe. I guess the wackos and their fearmongering about aluminum have decided to pick on some other metal. Next stop: Magnesium...avoid it! Its inflammable.

I think what needs to be recognized is tradition. It is well known that lead is poisonous. Its been known for millenia. Thats why there is no lead flatware. There is no pewter flatware. Its not used, because its poisonous. We didn't suddenly just become brilliant and recognize the hazards of copper. Its ignorant people with nothing better to do than run around making everyone miserable and scared. Ignorant people look for reasons for things to be wrong and they can only go after the easiest things they know about...whats on the periodic table. Copper is safe. Its been safe for thousands of years, it'll be safe for thousands more. I have been telling people for years that vitamin C and benzoates (forming benzene) were poisonous and shouldn't be put in soft drinks together. Finally, industry has caught up with the curve and thats why many soft drinks (and energy drinks) have been reformulated to not include one or the other. Most opted to stop including Vitamin C. Hansens opted to stop including Benzoates...a rocking decision. Benzoates are mostly pointless anyways. I'm watching these things closely, all the time. Its my thing. I'm ten times as paranoid about chemicals as any normal person should be. I also know when an idiot tells me copper or aluminum isn't safe, that I call him on it. Before the internet, there was no forum for crackpots and people who had heard god's voice that told them copper was dangerous. When somebody makes an unsubstantiated claim, call them on it. If it goes against logic or runs against society's understanding of the universe, investigate the claim.

As Franklin Delano Roosevelt said: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Same applies here.

Aha..... Something I actually know a little about. As Eric said, about 90% of the homes and multi-unit residential buildings in this country use copper piping. Newer building/homes are now approved for PVC or PEX. PVC is used for potable water supply as per the plumbing code which means every city must allow PVC. PEX however failed to get into the plumbing code at the last revision and can be used only in those cities which allow it by variance. Personally, I'd stick with copper because recent water testing has shown both PVC and PEX are leeching chemicals into the drinking water they carry. In the case of PEX it's a well-known carcinogen. So well known that Orange County, Los Angeles County and San Diego County will not even consider letting it be installed any longer. SD never allowed it to my knownledge and dodged a bullet because Orange County has about 50,000 units wiith PEX and they're just cringing and waiting for the first "your water pipe caused my cancer" lawsuit. Los Angeles County has only a very few number of units, mostly public buildings, because they considered it still experimental.

Again, like Eric said, copper isn't dangerous in any level of exposure you're likely to get in your lifetime. And it's so necessary that if you check your vitamin bottle almost every formula contains some of it. There's some speculation that the aluminum buildup that is now known to exist in Alzheimer's patients may have occured because they didn't have enough copper in their system. Our bodies, being the incredible machines they are need, certain metals to function. If they don't get it they will replace those missing molecules with whatever metal is available floating around in your bloodstream. Like the aluminum molecules absorbed from your anti-perspirant.

By the way, almost of the valves on those copper water lines are brass. Some have been around in in your lines at least, oh 60 years or so. This stuff has been all around us for a century or more. Not wanting it in your hookah doesn't exactly make sense.

'Rani

[foibled again]

Again, this post if just for further clarification. I don't claim to be an expert at anything so take it however you wish.

Phthalates commonly added to PVC and other polymers as plasticizers and are known to leech out because they do not form covalent bonds with plastics. They are found in a lot of applications, ie. toys (dildos too! ), food containers, and medical grade tubing and pill coatings. They are currently being phased out of PVC production in the US, mostly over matters concerning child safety and such.

PEX is cross linked polyethylene. It is made from high density polyethylene and differs only in a cross linked bond in the polymers to make it an elastomer. PEX itself is not a carcinogen, but the concerns in California center around specific carcinogens claimed to be leeched from it, some of which are unfounded because some, like benzene, are not actually found in PEX produced by any manufacturer in the US. MTBE is the other big one that gets thrown around in the argument and does exist in some newly made PEX but at levels allowed by the EPA. A lot of the lawsuits over PEX center around defective products and was part of the reason why California was resistant to allowing it for so long.

California may not be the best example to use for safety building regulations because we are the slowest and most resistant at adopting new materials. I mean it took what, 20 years after everyone else approved CPVC before we did. Hell, California regulations call out the 1977 ASME codes as the only approved editions for nuclear construction and no nuclear components in California are built to that year edition that I know of.

The dangers of copper exist primarily in the compounds it forms and not copper itself. There is a good reason why copper compounds are found in a lot of pesticides and fungicides used.

Abnormally high aluminum levels in the brain has been found in some, not all, Alzheimers cases, and not all cases of abnormally high levels in the brain are related to Alzheimers which is why the medical community has not acknowledged an actual link yet. Aluminum compounds are known to be toxic at higher concentrations in nervous tissues but what their roles might be in relation to the disease is not understood. It's my personal opinion that it is not a well founded statement to say that aluminum is a cause of Alzheimers nor is the opposite either. We just don't know enough yet.

[foibled again]

Oh and to amend my statement earlier about lead in brass, I was specifically talking about brass used in applications involving contact with water. There is still a lot of it in use in the US that still contains enough lead to be a leeching concern as lead free brass regulations for the manufacture of water bearing components are a more recent occurrence.

[Rani]

Oh and to amend my statement earlier about lead in brass, I was specifically talking about brass used in applications involving contact with water. There is still a lot of it in use in the US that still contains enough lead to be a leeching concern as lead free brass regulations for the manufacture of water bearing components are a more recent occurrence.

Effective 01.01.10, lead may not be present in any material that comes in contact with the potable water water system. Every faucet currently in use in the US has some brass fittings internally which are now being removed from the manufacturing process. All valves are currently being manufactured for sale after AB 1953 becomes effective at 12:01 a.m. New Years Day. No one may take delivery of any fitting, valve or faucet containing leaded brass as of that date. Most companies are going to ceramic valves in faucets, and all mainline valve components are being changed to stainless steel in the manufacturing. (The price of ball valves doubled as a result.)


As far as PEX is concerned...... I'm a plumbing project manager by trade. You and I are going to have to agree to disagree, because those aren't just fears about PEX. They found actual leeching occuring in PEX installed units in OC as of 2 years ago. My company installed some of them. And we paid for independent testing because PEX is enormously more profitable to install than copper and quite frankly didn't want to give it up. There is only one brand of PEX that contains a liner that protects against the leeching (Bow-pex). It's not fears about PEX..... It's reality.

'Rani

[foibled again]

That's fine. Discussion from multiple point of views is a good thing IMO whether we agree or not. Edited December 7, 2009 by foibled again

[Rani]

That's fine. Discussion from multiple point of views is a good thing IMO whether we agree or not.

Absolutely! And we can also up the ante by dragging Eric into the middle of it if only for grins and giggles!

'Rani