Getting Intimate Through Prayer

[Tyler]

Not really a thread I made for joking, and in the "serious discussion group" I usually don't unless it's sarcastic joking still pertaining to the topic at hand.

[KyleTheJustin]

Well, since we three are the only ones that have commented on it, I thought we could use a bit of humor to break up the seriousness involved. Maybe that's my form of prayer. Who knows.

+1

[Jimbo64]

Hello,

I normally stay clear of these types of topics, but what the heck...

I have to disagree with your comparison of sex and prayer, unless you are saying that in either case, intimacy levels are the same.

I personally dont recall any non-satanic religions that allow sex with random people, but you could entrust any random person to witness you praying, right?

Obviously you could invite a lover to witness your prayer, and could then call it more "intimate" I guess.

At any rate, I'd say the type of intimacy is more relevant than the level. Sexual intimacy in my opinion is way more delicate than any other form.

Now, how about another question?

Why the comparison in the first place?

Jimbo-

[evilded777]

"All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals."

One of the few tenets of my faith.

I hear what you're saying FSU, but... not sure I really agree. Physical intimacy is prayer, when done correctly. Frankly, I find it hard to remove the element of prayer from physical intimacy, and that gets me into all sorts of trouble with my partners. Not saying that there isn't a place for fun in it, because there certainly damn well should be (it wouldn't feel so good, if there wasn't supposed to be)... I am just not one for divorcing the physical from the spiritual, or debasing the physical before the spiritual.

The religious experience is hard-wired into us for a reason. The fact that our experiences, be they mental, physical or spiritual, all interpenetrate (no pun intended, really, I swear) should really lead us down avenues that we don't often travel.

[Hippo_Master]

How can you compare the feeling of intimacy with a spiritual entity to that of two human beings?

Intimacy with a "God" is a spiritual feeling, a feeling not everyone has. Personally I view nothing I do as "close to God" or "One with God". This just seems like a way to make every ritual someone performs in their lives a link to someone's "God".

Sexual intimacy is one of the greatest physical and mental feelings human kind can and will ever feel. A human lusts after another human with such a carnal urge, a desire so strong that it completely derails your train of thought and causes you to seek out strong physical fulfillment over mental fulfillment. The intimate feelings one human being feels towards another are simply a desire to have more physical experiences with that person. Sexual intimacy is so natural and gratifying.

I fail to see how anyone could feel a strong physical, carnal desire to pray to their "God". Intimacy with a "God" is a feeling of closeness, but not a desire. Intimacy with a "God" is by no means as strong or overpowering as a sexual desire, it's impossible to feel like that as a normal human.

[Hippo_Master]

[quote name='evilded777' date='26 January 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1264536546' post='447824']
"All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals."

One of the few tenets of my faith.

I hear what you're saying FSU, but... not sure I really agree. [b]Physical intimacy is prayer, when done correctly.[/b] Frankly, I find it hard to remove the element of prayer from physical intimacy, and that gets me into all sorts of trouble with my partners. Not saying that there isn't a place for fun in it, because there certainly damn well should be (it wouldn't feel so good, if there wasn't supposed to be)... I am just not one for divorcing the physical from the spiritual, or debasing the physical before the spiritual.

The religious experience is [b]hard-wired into us for a reason[/b]. The fact that our experiences, be they mental, physical or spiritual, all interpenetrate (no pun intended, really, I swear) should really lead us down avenues that we don't often travel.
[/quote]

I strongly disagree with this. And what, please enlighten me, is the "correct" way to get laid?

And hard-wired into who? I view sex with my significant other as sex with my significant other. It would be creepy is someone's "God" was watching.

[Dr. B]

I think you missed the definition of "prayer", Hippo, as defined in this thread. Edited January 26, 2010 by Dr. B

[Rani]

I wanted to think about this for a few days before wading in...... I think I get where FSU is going, but I do disagree with one of his original points. To explain......

Consider that Prayer is connecting with or plugging into to what you might consider a source. Original source as in a traditional God, or simply as energy. Either way you have to let down internal barriers to complete the circuit so to speak. In the human experience we equate the lack of barriers and the completion of the circuit as being intimate. Understandable since you're completely open and part of the flow back and forth of that energy. Expressed as sexuality, yes, there is a difference between intimate sex and more casual encounters where you have not let down all barriers. Anyone who says the sexual experience is the same whether it's a one night stand with someone you met only hours ago and someone you love deeply and feel completely vulnerable with, is indeed doing something incorrectly.

Prayer by it's nature in our Western description is very intimate. We open ourselves up to communication with something we can only conceptualize but have little concrete evidence exists. However, this is prayer at it's deepest levels and not all prayer is designed for that kind of communication. In the Muslim example FSU stated, I don't believe prayer as utilized in Muslim culture is "still born", but rather serves a different purpose: That of glorification of God. It's meant as an honoring of Divinity and reminder to our human self of that connection, rather than as a supplication. Not much different from the Salute to the Sun performed by yogis around the world at sunrise.

While there's plenty of evidence that humanity would be better off with a greater exchange of intimacy, I don't think we're yet at the point where we can tip that balance. There are too many troubled and damaged people in the world for any of us to freely open the gates offering intimacy with expectation that we will not be exploited for that vulnerability. One would hope that as time passes and the world learns to be more balanced spiritually and more embracing of differences that we will reach the point where that kind of open intimacy will be completely integrated into our humanity. That does not mean that we shouldn't continue to strive to offer it to those we have determined are worthy of our intimacy. Just as knowledge doubles itself at a faster and faster rate as it builds upon itself, so intimacy which now exercises slowly builds to double itself and as we become more comfortable with it and extend it more often, will doubly upon itself faster and faster until the balance can be tipped and intimacy is part and parcel of who we are as human.

'Rani

[Dr. B]

[quote name='Rani' date='26 January 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1264545626' post='447854']

While there's plenty of evidence that humanity would be better off with a greater exchange of intimacy, I don't think we're yet at the point where we can tip that balance. There are too many troubled and damaged people in the world for any of us to freely open the gates offering intimacy with expectation that we will not be exploited for that vulnerability...
'Rani
[/quote]

This I agree with completely. I don't think we as a species are at a point where we can offer each other a sense of security on issues of co-reliance and interdependency. Though intimacy is but one victim of our reluctance, I find myself convinced that, despite the potential realizable gains, we are too stubborn to depend on one and other. I just felt the need to vocalize my opinion that this is a basic frustration of mine; applicable to many facets of life.

[evilded777]

[quote name='Hippo_Master' date='26 January 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1264538236' post='447830']
How can you compare the feeling of intimacy with a spiritual entity to that of two human beings?

Intimacy with a "God" is a spiritual feeling, a feeling not everyone has. Personally I view nothing I do as "close to God" or "One with God". This just seems like a way to make every ritual someone performs in their lives a link to someone's "God".

Sexual intimacy is one of the greatest physical and mental feelings human kind can and will ever feel. A human lusts after another human with such a carnal urge, a desire so strong that it completely derails your train of thought and causes you to seek out strong physical fulfillment over mental fulfillment. The intimate feelings one human being feels towards another are simply a desire to have more physical experiences with that person. Sexual intimacy is so natural and gratifying.

I fail to see how anyone could feel a strong physical, carnal desire to pray to their "God". Intimacy with a "God" is a feeling of closeness, but not a desire. Intimacy with a "God" is by no means as strong or overpowering as a sexual desire, it's impossible to feel like that as a normal human.
[/quote]

They call them both ecstasy for a reason. True ecstatic prayer, true union ... they are the same, doesn't matter if its a divine lover or a physical lover. Look over the literature some time... the words are all the same. The feelings are all the same. Sure, we're talking mystics here, not your average run of the mill sort of prayer. But that does not invalidate my assertions. Look up Saint Theresa of Avila for one of the most quoted/pointed to examples of ecstasy and union.

And as I also asserted, there is no divorcing one of our embodied elements. Believe me, I know what it is like to be in love and so deeply that it affects me beyond reason. That does not mean that I was not totally involved: mentally, physically, spiritually. I was, I am... When nearly every waking thought involves the beloved, when being apart from or in fear of losing (rational or not) the beloved causes one physical pain, when you ache for the beloved to the point of crying (or when you are reunited with the beloved after absence and are moved to tears)... this is love. And they are all connected.

It is possible to reach these states through whatever medium your prayer involves. Mystics the world over, for millenia, have shown us the way. Granted, its not for everyone...and I ain't saying its EASY. But its there.

Of course my views are colored by my own theology, and my own beliefs as to why the two experiences are similar.

[evilded777]

[quote name='Hippo_Master' date='26 January 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1264538385' post='447832']
[quote name='evilded777' date='26 January 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1264536546' post='447824']
"All acts of love and pleasure are my rituals."

One of the few tenets of my faith.

I hear what you're saying FSU, but... not sure I really agree. [b]Physical intimacy is prayer, when done correctly.[/b] Frankly, I find it hard to remove the element of prayer from physical intimacy, and that gets me into all sorts of trouble with my partners. Not saying that there isn't a place for fun in it, because there certainly damn well should be (it wouldn't feel so good, if there wasn't supposed to be)... I am just not one for divorcing the physical from the spiritual, or debasing the physical before the spiritual.

The religious experience is [b]hard-wired into us for a reason[/b]. The fact that our experiences, be they mental, physical or spiritual, all interpenetrate (no pun intended, really, I swear) should really lead us down avenues that we don't often travel.
[/quote]

I strongly disagree with this. And what, please enlighten me, is the "correct" way to get laid?

And hard-wired into who? I view sex with my significant other as sex with my significant other. It would be creepy is someone's "God" was watching.
[/quote]

Feel free to disagree. And perhaps I should have illuminated my statements somehow with the inherent humor that they should have carried. There's no right and wrong way to do it, its a turn of phrase... and we each get out of it what we put into it. Rani did a wonderful job of pointing out one of the differences between "right" and "wrong" (which are just convenient terms and carry no real weight, morally or intellectually in this case): casual and intimate. Good sex is good sex. Sex with someone you love is on another plane.

And yes, we are all hard-wired for the religious experience. It quantifiable... though I hate to reduce the awesome workings of the human condition to chemicals and receptors, its there for observation. Science has shown us, there are states of the human condition termed "the religious experience" that are quite unlike any other (except as noted here, the condition known as love) that involve specific chemicals, receptors, et al. Its there for us, in us... unique, these two conditions.

Why?

[TizaNabi]

[quote name='KyleTheJustin' date='23 January 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1264266815' post='447283']
I think praying to an invisible man in the sky who grants wishes to random followers based on his own volition kind of negates the idea of praying being legitimate and even worthwhile. However, I respect much of what you wrote and find trouble in much of what you wrote. You claim that prayer is "more intimate than sex," and invite others to watch you perform an act that does little more than makes you less crazy for talking to yourself. Again, I respect belief and raised Catholic for a good portion of my life, but the thought of praying always had me wondering what the hell (no pun intended) it was for. By process of sheer chance you may end up with, say, 50% of all your prayers being "answered," but that hardly identifies that any spiritual or higher being contributed to whatever it is you prayed for. But, that aside, that delves into a different debate regarding religion as a whole, which, to keep this topic on topic, we'll save for another time.

Praying, to me, gives people hope in something they are hoping for in the future; an idea that seems ludicrous and provides nothing more than a way to close their eyes at night and feel that they are that much closer to God, or the Smurfs, or even Gandalf from Lord of the Rings--each of these entities holding just as much solid ground as the big G man. Totally disregarding the fact that I think prayer is bogus, what you stated has a lot of great importance and a lot of "alright, dude, now you're just being really weird." There are hundreds of thousands of ways to be intimate, one of which happens to be smoking a hookah with great friends around a table. Prayer, if it means this much to you, seems to be a valid form of intimate connection, but I feel that the connection can only be made between you and another person, not a mythical man (or woman, if you want to disestablish the patriarchy that is religion) in the sky who bends the idea of the "divine plan" to suit your needs and wants. Because at the end of the day, no matter what, prayer bases itself around one idea: my wants. Surely one can argue that your "wants" contribute to the greater good, but one must define and identify thoroughly the greater good on a grand scale before asking Papa Smurf to help mom rid herself of cancer. I'm sure she's not the only one in need of assistance.
[/quote]
So, praying is "asking smurf for favours". In Hebrew praying means "to unite with".Its not Christmas morning everyday of the year.Maybe the idea when we ourselves lose our wallet,or our eyesight, we don't pray for their return. In Judaism we make a blessing to G-d thinking for what we recieved. Its what we needed.

Prayers by my very close by neighbors in Arab villages are 5 times a day. The prayers start with praise for Allah.


Jewish prayers are 3 times a day with the morning prayer running quickly at 45 minutes to an hour. Or often more. Of our 87 long page morning prayer 57 full pages are mostly Psalms which praise the Infinite One.Page 58 we have general requests for peace, the rebuilding of Jerusalem,Messiah's comming,then back to more pages of praise. Yes, if "give me" is what people are doing, then its a sorry situation.Afternoon and evening are short prayers with a before bedtime prayer about the soul.

Just like some people buy a car ,keep it maintained,change the oil, fix the car themselves, write down logs, wax, etc, while some people gas the car only and when things go wrong, they take it to a garage mechanic. Some people love their children,nuture them, educate them in a positive way, and some parents just pass out credit cards. Its about caring.

[TizaNabi]

[quote name='Tyler' date='23 January 2010 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1264241578' post='447262']
In a commencement speech given by David Foster in 2005 at Kenyon College I started on a thought process through my first readings in my Spirituality and Presence class. Foster argues that we as humans experience things that support our own "default" mind set that we are in-fact the absolute center of the universe; the realest, most vivid, and important person in existence. Rarely do we talk about such a perspective because its self-centeredness and because it's socially repulsive, but it's pretty much the same for all of us, deep down. Whether or not I agree with him on this matter remains to be decided but delving further into his speech he starts to talk about the day to day grind and how we as a modern society are so caught up in the rat race that the person who cut you off is an asshole in your mind, never mind that his son is in the backseat with a life-threatening illness or injury, the fact that out of all the people, he chose to cut you off, is insulting in your mind. When we stand in line at the grocery store, everyone is in front of us yet we care not that we are in front of someone else. In the day to day, we lose sight of the things that should be most basic to us. Take the short story he opened with:

"There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says "Morning boys, how's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes "What the Hell is water?"

We've become so discriminate with, not only ourselves, but others, that we've begun to progress into a mindset where we're ignoring the basics of life. When we're sitting in traffic, when we're standing in line, when we finally realize that maybe some people have a higher priority than us on the road, we've begun to get wet.

To break free from this solipsism we need to begin to become intimate with ourselves and others; we need to be able to go beyond not only asking what water is, but what effect the water has on us. Abraham Joshua Heschel has a very interesting article called The Sabbath: Architecture of time that really begins to open up this issue in a new light.

His basic argument in this article works through the nature and celebration of Shabbat, or the Jewish Sabbath as it is known. His argument is that Judaism, a religion of time, not space, symbolizes and sanctifies time though the veneration of the Sabbath. Additionally there are other aspect to his article, but to stay on point he argues that "we cannot conquer time through space. We can only master time in time." What does he mean by this? I'm sure there are just as many correct answers as there are incorrect answers but that is kind of the point: Is this a sign of linguistic poverty, or rather an indication of an unwarped view of the world, of not equating reality with thinghood? He continues on talking about some of the festivals and celebrations of Judaism such as Passover, the Feast of Weeks, the Feast of Booths, and points out of these celebrations that the unique events of historic time were spiritually more significant than the repetitive processes in the cycle of nature, even through physical sustenance depended on the latter.

As I previously mentioned, Judaism being a religion of time, it aims at the sanctification of time. Unlike the space-minded men to whom all hours are alike, qualitiless, empty shells, the Bible senses the diversified character of time. There are no two hours alike. Every hour is unique and the only one given at the moment, exclusive and endlessly precious.

Think about Judaism and the Hebrew Bible for a moment. What things are the earliest example of holy? Is it the creation of the Trees of Life and Knowledge of Good and Evil? Is it the theophany on the Mount, is it the actual appearance of G-d in the burning bush? While all of these things are indeed holy in their own right they are not the first, most holy thing in the Bible. In fact, the first time the word "qadosh" was used in the Bible, is in reference to the seventh day in which G-d rested.



Rest. Holy. Two ideas that we're all pretty familiar with to their own respective degree, but how often do we put the two together? What, exactly, defines what is rest and what is holy? This is where my questioning comes to play.

To me, rest is the point where both mentally and physically you are at one with your natural self. All the worries of the day have settled into their own corner of the mind, the aching of the back, feet, head, and legs subsides to the comfort of whatever position you find yourself in at the time, and you can truly focus on the thing[s] in which bring you closer to whatever it is you're spiritual with.

Holy, on the other hand, has many different connotations. What I hold holy in my heart and mind might be frivolous information and ideas to another. But, this thing, this activity, this action, what ever "this" is remains the upmost important thing in one's life. Taking the traditional idea of religion out of the picture, imagine a person that we all probably know, someone who is self-proclaimed atheist and spends their time against any ideas of religion, yet when they're on their laptop at the coffee shop, they're suspicious of anyone in their area because that person might be invading their privacy, looking at their computer screen and seeing what they hold as "qadosh." They don't want to share it because to them, what they do on that computer, the thing that allows veneration of their sacred, is so intimate to them that they feel violated with uninvited infringements. When this person is on their computer, they are praying to their g-d, they are venerating their "qadosh," they are being intimate with themselves the best way they know how.

(Yes I know I went a bit far with this example but bear with me)

Now, take someone like me. I am a very spiritual person, religious, and to me, the computer, the sacred to my qadosh, is prayer. Prayer is the ultimate intimacy for me because it is what I use to connect to the most important "this" in my life: G-d. Yes, I am saying that to me, prayer is more intimate than sex in a number of ways. When I invite someone to pray with me, to listen, to watch, to witness me pray in any way shape or form, or am invited by someone to do the same to them, I feel that I am sharing the most humanly intimate possible connection. Contingent to this fact, is that I or any other person is actually praying. There are those, for instance, some Muslims, whom do the actions, say the words, and adhere to cleanliness aspects of ritual prayer, but their prayers are, for lack of a better word, still born.

When one prays, as they have for a long time, they know what they're expecting and have already formed a bond and love with it. However, if one prays without the understanding and consciousness of what they're doing, they are doing nothing more than delivering a stillborn action. The purpose and meaning is not there but the shell of existence is. In order to share this intimacy you must give birth to a living prayer.

It is this connection, the connection to whatever is qadosh to a person, that will eventually end the solipsism I mentioned earlier that according to Foster, is the default of human nature. When we can finally do this, we must keep in mind, that not only need we be aware of water and that others swim in it, but we must remind ourselves: this is water, this is water, this is water.



Is it unimaginably hard to do this, to stay conscious and alive, day in and day out, but it is not impossible. We must learn to be intimate once again, and for me, the most intimate thing one can do with another, is pray.


[/quote]
I like what you said about a stillborn prayer. In Torah those words are used exactly. If a person would learn the Holy Torah all day and into the night,but does not fulfill even a little of what he learned, it is like a stillborn birth, thrown back in his face. So much for being Kadosh-holy. which might answer a bit of your long page. Who says we were put a soul into a body to become holy? Angels are holy, they were created that way, they are called in Hebrew "Holy Animals" because they did exactly nothing to be holy, they just are, to do their missions. Man can move up and be holier than an angel by far, or down and be worse than a pig.Worse, not almost.
But our job is not to be holy. We were brought down an infinite soul part of the Infinite One, enclothed in the body we were given on purpose,to the parents we got,to our siblings,teachers,culture,religion,nation in this time and space. Most of us have been on this world before and come back to polish things up.

We learn in Torah that time and space are a creation, that there are infinite physical worlds in the universe and here, infinite spiritual worlds, parallel worlds. That the planets revolved around the sun, that the earth is round, this all proceeded Galileo and Cristofer Columbus in the Torah revealed to 3 million Jews on the foot of Mount Sinai.

And the Jews were dispersed to Babylon and returned to Israel, then 2000 years ago dispersed by the Romans to Rome,Spain,Gaul of France.England. From the Spainish Inquisition many fled to all the North African nations, also to Yemen,to Ethiopia, later to South America, 1190 the Jews were kicked out of England, many ended up in Eastern Europe, some were there before. But my point is all of these communities large or small the world over came to Israel and we all had the same Written Torah and the same Oral Torah. Of course we knew this from before.

So if time and space are a creation, of course we learn how. Some of us can laugh at the scientists who explain how, with proofs. Much which are correct. Like Columbus and Galileo, but 1400 years after it was stated in Torah. Wouldn't the better question be "WHY were they created?" Why ,if time ans space are mere creations, then it means they are nullified at their source in G-D. Just like a million candles in the sun, what are they? And one sun beam, what is it in the source of the sun?

In the Infinite One's creation of time and space which come from G-D's speach, not his thought time and space are nothing.G-D loves, G-D wants,G-D speaks!!
Is G-D a creep like we are that speach is important? Where do we have power to love,hear,speak,feel and think? It comes from G-D.A tiny portion of real true love or real Infinite wisdom.

Try unplugging your friend's stereo while he is in a state of bliss. What happened? The electric energy in that socket returned to its source and the music along with the mechanics running it returned to their source. So since G-D created the universes in 6 days, did he fly down to the Virgin Islands for a well needed vacation?
Because the Wisdom is complete,because "He" created you, then "She" the female aspect of G-D,nature nutures you at every moment. If He in His Infinite Wisdom created your soul,your body then He must know you at all times, change you when you grow. Even when youe electric power goes off nothing will work.
After G-D brought you into existence, along with the birds,worms,sun,angels,5 billion other humans he is "existing " us all. That power keeps our tiniest atoms alive and moving and exists them. Just as He exists a wooden table that is actually trillions of little moving bodies. A scientist can tell you why, suppose it, but to say :
"Oh, this table of wood was created for this reason..." isn't the why, the purpose even more important. Its why you bought a pc!!! You probably didn't learn how to take it apart and rebuild it, though you can. You were shopping for the best model at the cheapest price. That is WHY you bought a pc and the how might mean very little to you.

Torah being the plan for life means we were created with an infinite soul into a body now and here to serve. Not to be served, or pray for an ipad before our next birthday. We use our soul powers and our bodily powers to make this world here a better place. And G-D shows us how. In one way if we look around even not long ago it might have been your parents born between 1945-55 who honestly believed that the world and world culture can change. Quite a lot did as a matter of fact.More was changed in the 60's and 70's than in whole centuries. But they mainly put their faith in a labratory produced tab of LSD or NHT (Non-Hookah Tobacco) which was grown cheaply and sold by criminals. The love and sharing was not based on truth, it was basically an animal desire for calm.

Peace and acceptance of others is not a nice idea. If its not the Creator's wish, He who created all and G-D then says, "I have this problem with love, I gave you some and I want it shared". This might entail the small detail of visiting your decrepit Grandfather shut up half blind,with his runny nose and rancid breath.But as I remember being 3 ,13,30,and now 57 if we live long enough it might happen to us. You visit because you were told to BE kind. It didn't say FEEL kindness. Maybe you never can or will. If slowly you can reach the stage of feeling, then you have grown in your service.

[Dr. B]

I love it when TizaNabi comes around. I hope you had a kosher passover Edited April 7, 2010 by Dr. B