Do It Yourself Shisha

[Amn_sinclair]

[quote name='Jeff_T' date='29 January 2010 - 08:00 AM' timestamp='1264748428' post='448318']
[quote name='dizzbizz' date='28 January 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1264728383' post='448232']
[quote name='evilded777' date='28 January 2010 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1264723821' post='448219']
Wow... this got deep quick.
[/quote]

Thats what she said
[/quote]
Haha, well done.
This does sound pretty crazy though. If you do try this Pat, make sure to have someone with you, preferably not partaking in case things go south. Also, if possible, maybe document (video) the experience/experiment.
[/quote]

i second the ideafor video documentary of the making and smoking of

[Sonthert]

Rivethead...thanks buddy...I'm on the clean and narrow now...no NTIs, NHTs or MAOIs for me.

Inquire with the pharmacist, thats a good idea. Ask them if taking an MAO-A or MAO-B is contraindicated in conjunction with your medication.

This stuff is all basic, nothing a third year grad student in Pharmaceutical Chemistry wouldn't know.

[Jacob Shock]

[quote name='r1v3th3ad' date='28 January 2010 - 06:32 AM' timestamp='1264685543' post='448125']
holy hell

...wouldn't be surprised if this stunt lands me in the hospital...

thanks for all the info Eric, I now think I am going to "wash" the tobacco before I brew it into something tasty
[/quote]


i tihnk eric is blowing this a little out of portion. i have consumed fairly high doses of harmine and harmaline several times (well over 20) and nothing bad happend. but you should follow his advice.

on a side note i didnt even know tobacco contained harmine and harmaline and used to use nicontina rustica in the past and nothing to drastic happend that i can say was caused by harmine and harmaline.

[Sonthert]

Tobacco doesn't contain harmaline, harmine or other MAOIs. Nicotiana rustica does.

Yes, Jacob's right...I'm exaggerating, and blowing things out of proportion. Rivethead, by all means go ahead. Effects of different chemicals in each person's body don't vary at all, so how it affects one person is the way it will affect everybody. Its unlikely that one person eats different foods or takes different medications than other people. Don't talk to a pharmacist or a qualified professional before trying this stuff. Don't exercise any caution whatsoever. I'm known to make inaccurate or faulty statements all the time. I'm never sarcastic either.

[mattarios2]

It sounds like this could be a good replacement for zag or khan to mix with tobaccos that aren't HUUGEE in the buzz department. Talking 2-3g per bowl.

figure 4-8% nicotine ... take the middle, 6% ... 3g of this stuff has roughly 18mg of nicotine ... is that math right?

You could add some of this stuff to any shisha and you'd get a tangiers x 5 buzz.

So lemme get this straight, because of the high nicotine content ... that is what increases the amounts of Harmine, Harmaline and other MAO-A and MAO-B Inhibitors Eric?

And it should be considered just as dangerous whether you smoke it straight or mixing a little in with other brands?

For example, would you still say it still is or "can be" as dangerous if you mix 2-3g of it into a 30-40g bowl?

[Jacob Shock]

[quote name='mattarios2' date='29 January 2010 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1264824546' post='448491']
It sounds like this could be a good replacement for zag or khan to mix with tobaccos that aren't HUUGEE in the buzz department. Talking 2-3g per bowl.

figure 4-8% nicotine ... take the middle, 6% ... 3g of this stuff has roughly 18mg of nicotine ... is that math right?

You could add some of this stuff to any shisha and you'd get a tangiers x 5 buzz.

So lemme get this straight, because of the high nicotine content ... that is what increases the amounts of Harmine, Harmaline and other MAO-A and MAO-B Inhibitors Eric?

And it should be considered just as dangerous whether you smoke it straight or mixing a little in with other brands?

For example, would you still say it still is or "can be" as dangerous if you mix 2-3g of it into a 30-40g bowl?
[/quote]


IMO not that dangerous, but ive never smoked 2-3 grams. ive only smoked it in a pipe. in a pipe you dont need much, so 2 to 3 grams might be a little much, but your not gonna die.

i wouldnt do it every day because you would get get very addicted (theory) and tollerance would require more and more. nicotien builds tolerance really fast.

[mattarios2]

Gotcha, it makes sense, and after a while you are going to want something stronger. So what's the point right?!

I guess I will just stick with what I have been doing.

[r1v3th3ad]

Well, I talked to my Uncle, who is a pharmacist of about 30 years...He said not to smoke it. He said it will interact negatively with my medication(not specifying how).

So, I am going to make a bowls worth, have my friend guinea pig it to see how flavor is(I might take a puff or two, what would that hurt) and go from there. Once I can get the flavoring right, I'll make the entire batch and send it out to my list(if they want to try it).

The tobacco came today and you don't know how bad I want to pack it up in my corncob. O well, I still have my kratom

[Amn_sinclair]

[quote name='r1v3th3ad' date='30 January 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1264886301' post='448605']
Well, I talked to my Uncle, who is a pharmacist of about 30 years...He said not to smoke it. He said it will interact negatively with my medication(not specifying how).

So, I am going to make a bowls worth, have my friend guinea pig it to see how flavor is(I might take a puff or two, what would that hurt) and go from there. Once I can get the flavoring right, I'll make the entire batch and send it out to my list(if they want to try it).

The tobacco came today and you don't know how bad I want to pack it up in my corncob. O well, I still have my kratom
[/quote]

i wanna be on the list!!!

[mattarios2]

i'd never be on the list

[Jacob Shock]

[quote name='r1v3th3ad' date='30 January 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1264886301' post='448605']
Well, I talked to my Uncle, who is a pharmacist of about 30 years...He said not to smoke it. He said it will interact negatively with my medication(not specifying how).

So, I am going to make a bowls worth, have my friend guinea pig it to see how flavor is(I might take a puff or two, what would that hurt) and go from there. Once I can get the flavoring right, I'll make the entire batch and send it out to my list(if they want to try it).

The tobacco came today and you don't know how bad I want to pack it up in my corncob. O well, I still have my kratom
[/quote]


i love kratom

[r1v3th3ad]

[quote name='Amn_sinclair' date='30 January 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1264886585' post='448612']
[quote name='r1v3th3ad' date='30 January 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1264886301' post='448605']
Well, I talked to my Uncle, who is a pharmacist of about 30 years...He said not to smoke it. He said it will interact negatively with my medication(not specifying how).

So, I am going to make a bowls worth, have my friend guinea pig it to see how flavor is(I might take a puff or two, what would that hurt) and go from there. Once I can get the flavoring right, I'll make the entire batch and send it out to my list(if they want to try it).

The tobacco came today and you don't know how bad I want to pack it up in my corncob. O well, I still have my kratom
[/quote]

i wanna be on the list!!!
[/quote]

Unfortunately you're in Germany...1.shipping is pricey for international 2.I'd be worried about customs grabbing it
[quote name='mattarios2' date='30 January 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1264889015' post='448624']
i'd never be on the list
[/quote]

lol thats funny because you are on it

[mattarios2]

AWWW YAAAAAY[img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/yahoo.gif[/img]

Thanks man, it's appreciated!

[Sonthert]

Mattarios: The MAOIs are associated with N. Rustica, not N. Tabacum. The nicotine content will change based on how its prepared. I think your math is wrong...I think 6% of 3g is 180mg of nicotine. 0.06 * 3g = .18g. 1g has 1000mg in...that 180mg. Thats roughly the equivalent of 6 packs of cigarettes.

Rivethead: did your uncle say your/my concerns were well founded?

Jacob Shock: I'm sure your experience was fine, but some people take complicated mixtures of medications. Many/most of them are amine-based. Adding an MAOI will make the effective amount entering the bloodstream higher, which can be critical. The other problem is that N. Rustica undoubtedly has different amounts of MAOIs in it. You might have gotten a mild batch. It could have been high in nicotine and low in MAOIs...there are no guarantees. I could mention several NHTs that would illustrate the point, but the rules forbade me. For instance, lets say Rivethead has ADHD. He takes prescription Adderall. He smokes some N. Rustica. Now, it doesn't affect you that much...but his normal dose of 25 mg that he takes before the N. Rustica hits him like 75 or 200mg of Adderall would hit him without MAOIs present. The other problem is that the nasty, sickening chemicals are going to be the ones that are retained the most, the side products that give you side-effects. He also loves pickled oysters and eats three cans the night before smoking the N. Rustica. He has a swiss cheese omelet for breakfast. His blood pressure spikes. He hits the floor. His heart goes into convulsions and stops because of the nasty mixture. Maybe he bursts an aneurysm in his brain. Maybe he has a stroke. These things are additive. Its like having a warehouse and having four forklifts running cargo in and out. All of a sudden, three of the forklifts stop working and the fourth one is running at half speed. Cargo starts to pile up in the warehouse. Before, four forklifts are enough to move everything out quickly. Now one moving half speed, every extra load you put into the warehouse takes longer to get out, the shit starts to stack up. Those chemicals are poisonous to his body. Some of those accumulating cargo palates cause his blood pressure to increase. They start accumulating and his blood pressure goes up even more. It is the reverse case of what happens if your mix alcohol soluble drugs and drink liquor. The alcohol speeds up the absorption and spikes the level of the drug in the body...like Adderall for instance. Now, these MAOIs slows the removal of these chemical from the body. The levels spike because the continued absorption level at the normal rate quickly saturates the body's slowed down MAO system. Maybe he doesn't die that morning at all. Maybe he feels fine later that evening, but his MAO system is impaired and he goes out and he drinks a six pack of beer and half a bottle of vodka after his evening Adderall. Now, his system, already slowed by the MAOIs and is trying to catch up, gets a fresh, accelerated jolt of Adderall from the alcohol. Plus the Tyramine in the beer. Normally, he would be fine. In this case, he has a stroke. Maybe in this scenario, he doesn't die. This time he's lucky. He has permanant brain damage. He is confined to a wheelchair and his wife has to feed him with a baby spoon for the rest of his life. These types of situations are almost always synergistic, multiplicative...not simple addition. You don't have shit to lose if he tries it and gets turned into a tea cart for the rest of his natural life or his widow has to figure out which suit to put on his cold body. Rivethead, on the other hand, does have something to lose. That's fine, you can say "I tried it, it was no big deal." You are dealing with something dangerous. You should always exercise extreme caution when experimenting with something you have never tried before. Don't minimize my point by saying "Eric's blowing it out of proportion." Express your opinion, by all means, but don't trivialize my point. This isn't like challenging your best friend to drink one more beer. They are dangerous and N. Rustica is not a joke in MAO concentrations. I know something about chemistry and pharmaceutical manufacturing. I worked for DuPont Pharmaceuticals. I headed up a project team...before I graduated from college. I worked for three different biotech companies. I have researched indigenous native MAOIs on a number of levels. I do know what I'm talking about. Most of what I have written previously is from memory. You are correct, it probably will be OK. He should exercise caution. I told him to be careful. I'm sure you can agree he should be careful, exercise caution. I apologize if I didn't go into enough detail, but I figured I might have built up enough trust currency on the Forum to just give him the short warning and be done with it. I guess not.

My niece died from an overdose of a mixture of two dangerous NHTs. The same one John Belushi died from. She had used NHT component A previously, but had never tried the other one. The reason she died? Very likely she was allergic to it and didn't know it and went into anaphylactic shock. Anaphylactic shock or an allergic reaction is always a possibility when trying a new food, NHT or prescription. All the other idiots were out of it and didn't see her dying. They found her body more than a day later, face down. The other people that were there that night just left in the morning. Couldn't be bothered to see if she was OK...or even alive. If she had exercised some caution the first time she tried component B, she might not have left four children without their mother. This is why this particular cocktail is dangerous. Synergism. Multiplication, not addition. I certainly have an emotional component in this argument. On the other hand, I'm not some "Ban Everything" sort of prude. Use caution, always. Use small amounts first, avoid contraindicated foods and prescriptions, increase the amount consumed on subsequent occasions slowly. Research what constitutes a normal dosage.

From Wiki on Nicotiana rustica: "Other reasons for its shamanic use are the comparatively high levels of MAOI beta-carbolines".

Sorry, there Jacob, I've just known too many people who died for no reason other than not exercising caution.

[Jacob Shock]

[quote name='Sonthert' date='30 January 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1264916547' post='448671']
Mattarios: The MAOIs are associated with N. Rustica, not N. Tabacum. The nicotine content will change based on how its prepared. I think your math is wrong...I think 6% of 3g is 180mg of nicotine. 0.06 * 3g = .18g. 1g has 1000mg in...that 180mg. Thats roughly the equivalent of 6 packs of cigarettes.

Rivethead: did your uncle say your/my concerns were well founded?

Jacob Shock: I'm sure your experience was fine, but some people take complicated mixtures of medications. Many/most of them are amine-based. Adding an MAOI will make the effective amount entering the bloodstream higher, which can be critical. The other problem is that N. Rustica undoubtedly has different amounts of MAOIs in it. You might have gotten a mild batch. It could have been high in nicotine and low in MAOIs...there are no guarantees. I could mention several NHTs that would illustrate the point, but the rules forbade me. For instance, lets say Rivethead has ADHD. He takes prescription Adderall. He smokes some N. Rustica. Now, it doesn't affect you that much...but his normal dose of 25 mg that he takes before the N. Rustica hits him like 75 or 200mg of Adderall would hit him without MAOIs present. The other problem is that the nasty, sickening chemicals are going to be the ones that are retained the most, the side products that give you side-effects. He also loves pickled oysters and eats three cans the night before smoking the N. Rustica. He has a swiss cheese omelet for breakfast. His blood pressure spikes. He hits the floor. His heart goes into convulsions and stops because of the nasty mixture. Maybe he bursts an aneurysm in his brain. Maybe he has a stroke. These things are additive. Its like having a warehouse and having four forklifts running cargo in and out. All of a sudden, three of the forklifts stop working and the fourth one is running at half speed. Cargo starts to pile up in the warehouse. Before, four forklifts are enough to move everything out quickly. Now one moving half speed, every extra load you put into the warehouse takes longer to get out, the shit starts to stack up. Those chemicals are poisonous to his body. Some of those accumulating cargo palates cause his blood pressure to increase. They start accumulating and his blood pressure goes up even more. It is the reverse case of what happens if your mix alcohol soluble drugs and drink liquor. The alcohol speeds up the absorption and spikes the level of the drug in the body...like Adderall for instance. Now, these MAOIs slows the removal of these chemical from the body. The levels spike because the continued absorption level at the normal rate quickly saturates the body's slowed down MAO system. Maybe he doesn't die that morning at all. Maybe he feels fine later that evening, but his MAO system is impaired and he goes out and he drinks a , already slowed by the MAOIs and is trying to catch up, gets a fresh, accelerated jolt of Adderall from the alcohol. Plus the Tyramine in the beer. Normally, he would be fine. In this case, he has a stroke. Maybe in this scenario, he doesn't die. This time he's lucky. He has permanant brain damage. He is confined to a wheelchair and his wife has to feed him with a baby spoon for the rest of his life. These types of situations are almost always synergistic, multiplicative...not simple addition. You don't have shit to lose if he tries it and gets turned into a tea cart for the rest of his natural life or his widow has to figure out which suit to put on his cold body. Rivethead, on the other hand, does have something to lose. That's fine, you can say "I tried it, it was no big deal." You are dealing with something dangerous. You should always exercise extreme caution when experimenting with something you have never tried before. Don't minimize my point by saying "Eric's blowing it out of proportion." Express your opinion, by all means, but don't trivialize my point. This isn't like challenging your best friend to drink one more beer. They are dangerous and N. Rustica is not a joke in MAO concentrations. I know something about chemistry and pharmaceutical manufacturing. I worked for DuPont Pharmaceuticals. I headed up a project team...before I graduated from college. I worked for three different biotech companies. I have researched indigenous native MAOIs on a number of levels. I do know what I'm talking about. Most of what I have written previously is from memory. You are correct, it probably will be OK. He should exercise caution. I told him to be careful. I'm sure you can agree he should be careful, exercise caution. I apologize if I didn't go into enough detail, but I figured I might have built up enough trust currency on the Forum to just give him the short warning and be done with it. I guess not.

My niece died from an overdose of a mixture of two dangerous NHTs. The same one John Belushi died from. She had used NHT component A previously, but had never tried the other one. The reason she died? Very likely she was allergic to it and didn't know it and went into anaphylactic shock. Anaphylactic shock or an allergic reaction is always a possibility when trying a new food, NHT or prescription. All the other idiots were out of it and didn't see her dying. They found her body more than a day later, face down. The other people that were there that night just left in the morning. Couldn't be bothered to see if she was OK...or even alive. If she had exercised some caution the first time she tried component B, she might not have left four children without their mother. This is why this particular cocktail is dangerous. Synergism. Multiplication, not addition. I certainly have an emotional component in this argument. On the other hand, I'm not some "Ban Everything" sort of prude. Use caution, always. Use small amounts first, avoid contraindicated foods and prescriptions, increase the amount consumed on subsequent occasions slowly. Research what constitutes a normal dosage.

From Wiki on Nicotiana rustica: "Other reasons for its shamanic use are the comparatively high levels of MAOI beta-carbolines".

Sorry, there Jacob, I've just known too many people who died for no reason other than not exercising caution.
[/quote]

damn dude, pretty extesive post and i deffenitaly get where your comming from. you give really good advice. i dont think i can contribute much more to this conversation without eithor getting banned or bringing this thread into the greay area.

[Amn_sinclair]

[quote name='r1v3th3ad' date='31 January 2010 - 01:18 AM' timestamp='1264897096' post='448630']
[quote name='Amn_sinclair' date='30 January 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1264886585' post='448612']
[quote name='r1v3th3ad' date='30 January 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1264886301' post='448605']
Well, I talked to my Uncle, who is a pharmacist of about 30 years...He said not to smoke it. He said it will interact negatively with my medication(not specifying how).

So, I am going to make a bowls worth, have my friend guinea pig it to see how flavor is(I might take a puff or two, what would that hurt) and go from there. Once I can get the flavoring right, I'll make the entire batch and send it out to my list(if they want to try it).

The tobacco came today and you don't know how bad I want to pack it up in my corncob. O well, I still have my kratom
[/quote]

i wanna be on the list!!!
[/quote]

Unfortunately you're in Germany...1.shipping is pricey for international 2.I'd be worried about customs grabbing it
[quote name='mattarios2' date='30 January 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1264889015' post='448624']

when i get shipments its not shipping to germany i have an apo address same as any other stateside adress lol

[Sonthert]

Send me a PM. We can compare notes in the "gray area". or is it "grey area"? Nope. spell check says its gray. I do know what you are talking about though. I've researched Native American Practices extensively. I still think you're being a little blithe here.

[r1v3th3ad]

I trust my uncle...he said that it is known that my medication will react poorly with MAOIs. Thanks for the background information, without you, I could be dead on my couch after trying a batch solo.

I am still going to make the stuff and ship it out. I only have 56g of tobacco to work with, so this will be limited

[Rani]

[quote name='Sonthert' date='31 January 2010 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1264972324' post='448758']
Send me a PM. We can compare notes in the "gray area". or is it "grey area"? Nope. spell check says its gray. I do know what you are talking about though. I've researched Native American Practices extensively. I still think you're being a little blithe here.
[/quote]

Once again...... Uh....Yeah..... Our ceremonial practices are intended to be life changing. Nothing life changing is likely to be an easy ride. And I can guarantee you that anything who thinks they are hasn't been through them. What's written and what the "experts" have supposedly witnessed isn't even close. Which is why when we read "Oh Native Americans do it so it must be okay and I'm going to try it..........." we kinda shake our heads and get as far away from the idiots as possible.

Remember the "simple" sweat lodge ceremony in Arizona not that long ago? People died.

'Rani

[r1v3th3ad]

I had something life changing for me the other night with something else I ordered. Each time with it, I get a new understanding of life. Part of the reason why I stayed in school when I was flunking out and wasting money four years ago. I cherish those experiences.

[Rani]

[quote name='r1v3th3ad' date='31 January 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1265002514' post='448824']
I had something life changing for me the other night with something else I ordered. Each time with it, I get a new understanding of life. Part of the reason why I stayed in school when I was flunking out and wasting money four years ago. I cherish those experiences.
[/quote]

I'm wondering if it's what I think it is....We'd have to take it to PM to discuss because it's not available everywhere. (How's that for double speak to avoid the search engines, lol.....?) If I'm right then yes, it always makes you look deeper into yourself.

I don't necessarily think life changing experiences are a bad thing but if we're going to go into something knowing ahead of time that it has the potential to alter your life permanently, we need to recognize that the experience can go either way. Recreational they are [u]not[/u].

'Rani

[r1v3th3ad]

message awayyyyy!!!!

[Jacob Shock]

[quote name='Rani' date='31 January 2010 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1264999553' post='448817']
[quote name='Sonthert' date='31 January 2010 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1264972324' post='448758']
Send me a PM. We can compare notes in the "gray area". or is it "grey area"? Nope. spell check says its gray. I do know what you are talking about though. I've researched Native American Practices extensively. I still think you're being a little blithe here.
[/quote]

Once again...... Uh....Yeah..... Our ceremonial practices are intended to be life changing. Nothing life changing is likely to be an easy ride. And I can guarantee you that anything who thinks they are hasn't been through them. What's written and what the "experts" have supposedly witnessed isn't even close. Which is why when we read "Oh Native Americans do it so it must be okay and I'm going to try it..........." we kinda shake our heads and get as far away from the idiots as possible.

Remember the "simple" sweat lodge ceremony in Arizona not that long ago? People died.

'Rani
[/quote]
LOL i know exactly what your talking about.

[mattarios2]

[quote name='Sonthert' date='31 January 2010 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1264916547' post='448671']
[b]Mattarios: The MAOIs are associated with N. Rustica, not N. Tabacum. The nicotine content will change based on how its prepared. I think your math is wrong...I think 6% of 3g is 180mg of nicotine. 0.06 * 3g = .18g. 1g has 1000mg in...that 180mg. Thats roughly the equivalent of 6 packs of cigarettes. [/b]

Rivethead: did your uncle say your/my concerns were well founded?

Jacob Shock: I'm sure your experience was fine, but some people take complicated mixtures of medications. Many/most of them are amine-based. Adding an MAOI will make the effective amount entering the bloodstream higher, which can be critical. The other problem is that N. Rustica undoubtedly has different amounts of MAOIs in it. You might have gotten a mild batch. It could have been high in nicotine and low in MAOIs...there are no guarantees. I could mention several NHTs that would illustrate the point, but the rules forbade me. For instance, lets say Rivethead has ADHD. He takes prescription Adderall. He smokes some N. Rustica. Now, it doesn't affect you that much...but his normal dose of 25 mg that he takes before the N. Rustica hits him like 75 or 200mg of Adderall would hit him without MAOIs present. The other problem is that the nasty, sickening chemicals are going to be the ones that are retained the most, the side products that give you side-effects. He also loves pickled oysters and eats three cans the night before smoking the N. Rustica. He has a swiss cheese omelet for breakfast. His blood pressure spikes. He hits the floor. His heart goes into convulsions and stops because of the nasty mixture. Maybe he bursts an aneurysm in his brain. Maybe he has a stroke. These things are additive. Its like having a warehouse and having four forklifts running cargo in and out. All of a sudden, three of the forklifts stop working and the fourth one is running at half speed. Cargo starts to pile up in the warehouse. Before, four forklifts are enough to move everything out quickly. Now one moving half speed, every extra load you put into the warehouse takes longer to get out, the shit starts to stack up. Those chemicals are poisonous to his body. Some of those accumulating cargo palates cause his blood pressure to increase. They start accumulating and his blood pressure goes up even more. It is the reverse case of what happens if your mix alcohol soluble drugs and drink liquor. The alcohol speeds up the absorption and spikes the level of the drug in the body...like Adderall for instance. Now, these MAOIs slows the removal of these chemical from the body. The levels spike because the continued absorption level at the normal rate quickly saturates the body's slowed down MAO system. Maybe he doesn't die that morning at all. Maybe he feels fine later that evening, but his MAO system is impaired and he goes out and he drinks a six pack of beer and half a bottle of vodka after his evening Adderall. Now, his system, already slowed by the MAOIs and is trying to catch up, gets a fresh, accelerated jolt of Adderall from the alcohol. Plus the Tyramine in the beer. Normally, he would be fine. In this case, he has a stroke. Maybe in this scenario, he doesn't die. This time he's lucky. He has permanant brain damage. He is confined to a wheelchair and his wife has to feed him with a baby spoon for the rest of his life. These types of situations are almost always synergistic, multiplicative...not simple addition. You don't have shit to lose if he tries it and gets turned into a tea cart for the rest of his natural life or his widow has to figure out which suit to put on his cold body. Rivethead, on the other hand, does have something to lose. That's fine, you can say "I tried it, it was no big deal." You are dealing with something dangerous. You should always exercise extreme caution when experimenting with something you have never tried before. Don't minimize my point by saying "Eric's blowing it out of proportion." Express your opinion, by all means, but don't trivialize my point. This isn't like challenging your best friend to drink one more beer. They are dangerous and N. Rustica is not a joke in MAO concentrations. I know something about chemistry and pharmaceutical manufacturing. I worked for DuPont Pharmaceuticals. I headed up a project team...before I graduated from college. I worked for three different biotech companies. I have researched indigenous native MAOIs on a number of levels. I do know what I'm talking about. Most of what I have written previously is from memory. You are correct, it probably will be OK. He should exercise caution. I told him to be careful. I'm sure you can agree he should be careful, exercise caution. I apologize if I didn't go into enough detail, but I figured I might have built up enough trust currency on the Forum to just give him the short warning and be done with it. I guess not.

My niece died from an overdose of a mixture of two dangerous NHTs. The same one John Belushi died from. She had used NHT component A previously, but had never tried the other one. The reason she died? Very likely she was allergic to it and didn't know it and went into anaphylactic shock. Anaphylactic shock or an allergic reaction is always a possibility when trying a new food, NHT or prescription. All the other idiots were out of it and didn't see her dying. They found her body more than a day later, face down. The other people that were there that night just left in the morning. Couldn't be bothered to see if she was OK...or even alive. If she had exercised some caution the first time she tried component B, she might not have left four children without their mother. This is why this particular cocktail is dangerous. Synergism. Multiplication, not addition. I certainly have an emotional component in this argument. On the other hand, I'm not some "Ban Everything" sort of prude. Use caution, always. Use small amounts first, avoid contraindicated foods and prescriptions, increase the amount consumed on subsequent occasions slowly. Research what constitutes a normal dosage.

From Wiki on Nicotiana rustica: "Other reasons for its shamanic use are the comparatively high levels of MAOI beta-carbolines".

Sorry, there Jacob, I've just known too many people who died for no reason other than not exercising caution.
[/quote]

right, I didn't realize after you multiple the grams by nic % it is in grams not mg, my bad, should have realized because you are multiplying the % by grams to begin with.

[Stuie]

I am anxious to try...nervous, excited, but can't wait.