Welfare Reform

[thatonethere]

As we all know, this can be a huge firey topic for a lot of folks. What's your take on it? What do you think could be done better? Is it even necessary? What should be the requirements for receiving it? Post the good, the bad and the ugly in your opinion (keep it civil though).

[PSU Smoker]

Well one thing i remember from when I took econ a year or so ago was the Welfare trap...

Some people on welfare who go out find a job and actually do the hard work get themselves off welfare. Yay! Right? Well it turns out in numerous cases when an individual gets themselves off welfare they are making little more than they were on welfare if not less. Due to the large increase in work on their part and the little increase in dividends they simply decide to go back to welfare since they will have to do only minimal work to stay on welfare and see the same amount of money coming in each month

Im not sure on my proposed solution to the welfare system but I do believe some repairs need to be made

[Dr. B]

Loans. Interest free loans with a grace period for repayment of principal of whatever the frictional unemployment coefficient is multiplied by 2 or so, since the typical welfare recipient isn't a skilled laborer. If the recipient continues to be disposed, they can apply for one of many unskilled public jobs for the betterment of society like building roads, cooking at homeless shelters, etc; and pay back the initial loan and apply for a second to secure time to hunt for a better job.

I'm all for temporary assistance, but there's a point at which dues have to be payed.

/rough idea

[PSU Smoker]

hmm not sure how id feel about giving them loans, interest free....sounds a lot like one of the main reasons the economy is like it is...

However the unskilled public works is definitely an option...possibly take people on welfare and put them into these jobs, ensuring they are truly making more with the job then they are on welfare. Have the program set up so they can't just quit the job to go back to welfare

[Venger]

welfare is a good idea but like all good ideas it is fundamentally flawed. The idea of helping a handicapped person whether physically or mentally challenged is wonderful and noble. The idea of helping a single parent who wants to be there for their kids,again nice. To help the elderly who have spent their entire lives contributing to the betterment of our great society,I say brava, and finally to help a family down on their luck to get them back on their feet without being homeless makes me all fuzzy inside BUT...
I have two very simple questions for you.
1. who is going to pay for it. Don't say the government because they have no money. The money they have is money that they have taxed you and are now redistributing money that took 40 hours of your personal time to earn. Don't say the rich. why should success be punished. why is it that he owes society more because he was able to make more in his 40 hours of time than you. That would be like saying Walmart owes me free groceries because they made more money this year than target or Walgreens.
2. How do you prevent abuse. Since the dawn of time someone sets up the rules and there is a dozen behind him trying to find a way to work the system. ok so you say only single women can have welfare but what about the babies.ok the babies too. I have one baby how much do i get. I have 8 babies (thanks octimom for making my point) how much do i get?.

Now what is going to happen here is what we are seeing in some European countries. The have very high welfare numbers and the rich want to keep it that way. If there are more workers in the workforce my job and lifestyle is threatened. If I can convince you to live at or just below the poverty level but you dont have to work then I dont mind if I pay 50% of what I earn. Who it hurts is the lower middle class. We can't afford 50% but we end up paying it just the same.so we start losing ground. The rich stay rich and we become the working poor till we get pushed out of the game.
The only reform is to make people work for what they get. If your gonna charge me I want something for my money.No more free ride. Have one or two welfare moms what tall the welfare kids daycare fashion and put the others to work. there should be no job too small. The immigration lie that mexican will do work americans won't. How lazy of a nation are we that we let illegal people do our most menial tasks because the people we pay to do nothing wont do it?
I ramble. Not sure there is a fix without a class war. So let them eat cake and off with their heads.
RAY

[Rani]

Here's my thoughts........... Until this last recession I wasn't much in favor of welfare at all because I felt like it encouraged people to stay home and have baby after baby. Teenagers getting pregnant see it as a safety net. And most who go om welfare don't have advanced education. The recession has caused me to rethink the value of safety nets because there are families out there who wouldn't be eating at all if it weren't for the welfare they receive.

So here's what I think....... I think that one of the requirements for continuing welfare should be that the recipient [u]must[/u] be enrolled in continuing education while receiving the benefits. With online schooling available there's no reason even a full time parent can't continue their education. The more education they receive the less likely they are to stay in the welfare system. And every student should be receiving some aid beyond student loans which trust me will cripple you for years and years down the road. For all those students reading this, find out what the requirements are in your state for General Relief. Could be you'd qualify based on minimum requirements/conditions and those few dollars can make the difference in your ability to continue your education.

I also have the radical belief that birth control should be mandatory - injectables administered in a medical office connected to the welfare office so that if you don't get your birth control, then you don't get your next 6 months of benefits. I know that would never pass but I'd really like to see it happen because there are so many people out there having babies on public money and never going to work at all that it's ridiculous. It's a Catch-22 that we need to force people to get out of. Safety nets are fine, but one that's completely and endlessly open ended is self-perpetuating and a drain on society.

'Rani

[PSU Smoker]

Id vote for the birth control portion...if you cant support yourself why should you be allowed to have a baby that needs to support and use the public money on it...that or everytime they want to have a baby they have to get approval for a simple majority of the tax payers =) (like that wouldn't be a hassle)

[thatonethere]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with someone being on welfare AS LONG AS THEY TRY TO BETTER THEMSELVES while on it. When I say "better themselves" I'm not talking about buying a bunch of bullshit or trying to live high on the hog. Im talking about going to school, triying to find a job (or better job) or something like that. I agree with a lot of what you guys say (Ray, Raini, Dr. , and your ideas should be implimented or taken into consideration regarding welfare reform. I'm not too sure regarding birth control. We do have planned parenting programs available. Maybe if someone is on welfare, they should be given free condoms with their welfare package (or someething). But being aware of birth control and being willing to use it is the key. Face it, people are aware of birth control, but I think some people just don't want to use it. Maybe if the birth control clinic was conviently placed right next to the unemployment office (or affiliated state funded building), then maybe so many people wouldn't be able to cheat the system.

Ray, you raise some really good questions regarding who will pay for this "reform".

Then again, what do you expect from a country that has a reality tv show called "16 and Pregnant".[img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif[/img] It's almost like being a teenage mother is celebrated, smh.

[thatonethere]

I just missed the "edit" option time frame, sigh

I wanted the post to say this:

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with someone being on welfare AS LONG AS THEY TRY TO BETTER THEMSELVES while on it. When I say "better themselves" I'm not talking about buying a bunch of bullshit or trying to live high on the hog. Im talking about going to school, triying to find a job (or better job) or something like that. I agree with a lot of what you guys say (Ray, Raini, Dr. [img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif[/img], and your ideas should be implimented or taken into consideration regarding welfare reform. I'm not too sure regarding birth control. We do have planned parenting programs available. Maybe if someone is on welfare, they should be given free condoms with their welfare package (or someething). But being aware of birth control and being willing to use it is the key. Face it, people are aware of birth control, but I think some people just don't want to use it. Maybe if the birth control clinic was conviently placed right next to the unemployment office (or affiliated state funded building), then maybe so many people wouldn't be able to cheat the system. Then again, what do you expect from a country that has a reality tv show called "16 and Pregnant".[img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif[/img] It's almost like being a teenage mother is celebrated, smh.

Ray, you raise some really good questions regarding who will pay for this "reform".

[PSU Smoker]

The condoms are an interesting point. Do you think most welfare families have multiple babies while on welfare because they never learned enough information about effective birth control and where to obtain free condoms? Because I know for the most part free condoms aren't very hard to come buy especially if you live in a city or a college town. My question is: Provided with condoms would welfare families use them to prevent pregnancy? Or would they continue having children because they dont have to work harder to provide for them?

[Venger]

Mandatory birth control will never be on the table.
1. because of the potential physical dangers blood pressure, clots,heart attack...just listen to the list on a YAZ commercial.
2. It violates some religious beliefs ( mostly catholic )
3. cost. the only way to force them would be a quarterly shot or a norplant
they don't have babies out of ignorance of birth control ( well maybe the teen moms do ) they have babies because the check gets bigger the more you have. There is also a virility culture too. Look how many babies I have made. I am the man. Manly men don't wear condoms they make strong babies.
Your better off either taking the children away and adopt them out or have some kind of child care while the parent works.
true story
When I lived in western NY (Rochester) my aunt's husband left her with a 4 month old and a house. So she was forced onto welfare.
five years later my cousin is now 5 and old enough for school. so my aunt said to the dept of welfare "I am ready to be off welfare all I need is some after school daycare and help getting a car, nothing fancy, just a reliable ride." they said "nope its all or nothing. You should stay in the system until your son is out of school and be home for him."So they would rather pay her mortgage,all her utilities, food, smokes and other things instead of some daycare for a couple hours a day and a used car that she could pay them back for.
The reason for this is they get paid and keep jobs based on the number of clients they had. Lose one and it could mean a cut in pay or staff.
Ray

[PSU Smoker]

wow thats crazy i never realized that would tell someone that...but i guess this is the US...

[thatonethere]

[quote name='PSU Smoker' date='25 February 2010 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1267144355' post='453835']
[b]wow thats crazy i never realized that would tell someone that..[/b].but i guess this is the US...
[/quote]

+1

Ray. You're right on point regarding why "forced" birth control won't work.

The only thing I can say about the welfare system and the people who use it is this. There are people who use it legitimately for the sole purpose of getting back on their feet and nothing more, and there are some people who will want to milk the system. This sort of thing is true in ALL economic situations, in all countries. We all know that the US is not the only country who has people trying to "milk the system" (whatever it is) to their benefit. Assuming we've all had jobs where there was one (or more) lazy employee(s) who have/has "the good life". This "good life" could be whatever it may be to that person, be them an extended member of the bosses family, or best friends with someone higher up on the corporate totem pole, or someone who just wants to get paid for not doing their job. Honestly (like Ray said) it would cost a whole lot to try to reform welfare because we'd never be able to completely prevent people from trying to milk the system. Sometimes I feel like the most that can be done is do our best not to become one of those people who choose to do it when we fall on hard times. And when we come across people who do, we can either gripe about it or report it, assuming the person we report it to doesn't have their own finger in the pie in some way. Most likely there are some very important people with their fingers in the pie as well, and there isn't a damn thing we (as individuals) can do about it. So what do we do? Do we form a coalition? Become "tea-baggers?" How do we fix it? At least we are talking about the problem instead of trying to hide from it or pretend it doesn't exist. I think awknowlegement of the problem is the first step, now coming up with a bonifide solution is the hard part. I think time is definitely running out on the United States of America in general. Who knows exactly what might cause the straw to break the camel's back, be it excessive spending in general, or an uprising of the people. Who really knows?

[thatonethere]

[quote name='PSU Smoker' date='25 February 2010 - 09:45 AM' timestamp='1267116330' post='453679']
The condoms are an interesting point.[b] Do you think most welfare families have multiple babies while on welfare because they never learned enough information about effective birth control and where to obtain free condoms? [/b]Because I know for the most part free condoms aren't very hard to come buy especially if you live in a city or a college town. My question is: [b]Provided with condoms would welfare families use them to prevent pregnancy? Or would they continue having children because they dont have to work harder to provide for them?
[/b][/quote]

People know about birth control. Like Ray said, there could be religious reasons why people choose not to use it. And at the same time, there are some people who just have kids so they can get free money.

True story. I knew someone with 8 kids and was a very proud single mother. She was the stereotypical welfare queen (minus the stereotypical race). Her home was paid for, she had a nice car, and she only worked the minimum required hours at her job so she could still keep receiving her checks. She [i]bragged[/i] constantly about her situation. Nobody could stand her and some have even went so far as to tell her that having so many kids like that was "selfish" and "careless". She was using her children as "commodities" and not viewing them as people SHE has to take care of. She would brag about taking her child to the emergency room for cuts,scrapes,and minor colds so she "wouldn't have to pay for it". She went so far as to say "if God didn't want her to have another child, then it wouldn't have happened. She is currently having her 9th child.

[Toxik916]

I completely agree with Rani but I cant see manditory birth controll ever passing. I work at a grocery store and I see people abusing the system on a daily basis. I see people buying Lobster, king crab, filet mignon with foodstamps and then driving off in a Hummer or Escalade. These are the same people who bitch about the prices yet they personally arent paying a goddamn dime. Hell I see people pay for cranberry juice with their foodstamps and then pay cash for a big ass bottle of Grey Goose. Sorry to go on a rant but that shit pisses me off, as a cashier I see their foodstamp balance at the bottem of the reciept and some people have over a thousand dollars a month to spend on groceries. The people that get that much money have at least four kids and are usually pregnant with another one.

One thing I would like to see though is manditory drug testing to recieve welfare. Welfare shouldnt be a way of life for people, it should be the last option. When you literally have nothing else the government should be there for its citzens but people need to try to better themselves and not rely on the government!

[Rani]

[quote name='Toxik916' date='26 February 2010 - 04:34 AM' timestamp='1267187697' post='453965']
I completely agree with Rani but I cant see manditory birth controll ever passing. I work at a grocery store and I see people abusing the system on a daily basis. I see people buying Lobster, king crab, filet mignon with foodstamps and then driving off in a Hummer or Escalade. These are the same people who bitch about the prices yet they personally arent paying a goddamn dime. Hell I see people pay for cranberry juice with their foodstamps and then pay cash for a big ass bottle of Grey Goose. Sorry to go on a rant but that shit pisses me off, as a cashier I see their foodstamp balance at the bottem of the reciept and some people have over a thousand dollars a month to spend on groceries. The people that get that much money have at least four kids and are usually pregnant with another one.

One thing I would like to see though is manditory drug testing to recieve welfare. Welfare shouldnt be a way of life for people, it should be the last option. When you literally have nothing else the government should be there for its citzens but people need to try to better themselves and not rely on the government!
[/quote]

You're right as I originally said mandatory birth control could never been passed. But as someone once told me....."Just because they say it can't be done doesn't mean you shouldn't try. " Unfortunately it is a way of life for so many people. If I hadn't spent some time as a child with a mother who milked the system herself, I might not be so angry at it's abuses. I'm sorry, but I think they do need to give up religious options if they want free money. I do think the doctor can either confirm their blood pressure can handle the pill or what about an IUD? No effect on blood pressure there. We as Americans like to be the people who constantly take care of everybody, but damn it, that's at least part of why we're in the economic situation we're in. California has a huge deficit and they're going to cut services and even potentially let prisoners go and close some prisons or selling state parks. But they're not going to touch welfare. And I'm sorry, but with no giving up something in return for free money, well, we just shouldn't be doing it. And quite frankly if I were in a situation where I was confronted with either taking a Norplant or starving, I'd give up any religious objections in a quick second and you know they would too.

'Rani

[Zeaken]

I hail from what might be considered the welfare capital of the country, NY.

I don't believe birth control will solve the problem. people will object morally and religiously and cause all sorts of problems fighting that. A simple way around that would be that you give additional welfare in terms of kids up to 2 children. 2.1 is the magic number for a sustainable population so cutting off at 2 seems like a perfect answer to give good incentive not to have kids number 3, 4 and so forth.

I think welfare for 6 months is fine. let people try and get back on there feet, find a job if they lost one or whatever may have happened. After 6 months i would like to see people indoctrinated into public works programs part time say 20hrs a week. have them help at soup kitchens, clean up trash, help maintain parks and so forth. this will give people time to get on there feet and it helps local communities who stay on it. Since most of this work is done anyway it would defer a lot of costs and probably eat up 25% of the costs of people who stay on welfare for more then 6 months. The moment people stop being involved with helping out the checks stop, if they only show up to half the work they lose half the check. The most people could be involved for i would say is 1.5 years. 6 months of getting on your feet and then 1 year of being in a work program.

Another option is paying for further education which i believe my state has but what happens is people only go to school until they get there check and then they stop going. it amazes me to what degree people go to stay in bleeding the system instead of having an education thats paid for so you can do better.

of course the flaw to my idea is that they would get "injured on the job" and claim disability but make it tough for them to do it and go through the hoops and you have an improved system that stems some of the costs involved and helps deter abusers.

[Rani]

I think we all have good ideas, but unfortunately some of them have been tried to be put into effect and got fought tooth and nail until they were abandoned - like the required work, etc. I feel very hopeless that we're completely stuck with this system.

'Rani

[Venger]

the only way real reform is going to work is if we are willing to let people fail and\or die. We can limit how much they get per kid or what they can buy or even if they work or not , but there will always be those who will have more than 2 kids that want to eat lobster and will refuse to work. You need to be willing to let them go. children will starve.people will die. Are we willing to let this happen. As a parent I say yes I am willing to do that. Why do I say as a parent? Because as a parent i have to let my son fail. Even though i want to protect him and help him anyway I can. he needs to learn that Dad is not always gonna be there and nothing is easy or free.
Ray

[Rani]

[quote name='Venger' date='26 February 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1267219595' post='454051']
the only way real reform is going to work is if we are willing to let people fail and\or die. We can limit how much they get per kid or what they can buy or even if they work or not , but there will always be those who will have more than 2 kids that want to eat lobster and will refuse to work. You need to be willing to let them go. children will starve.people will die. Are we willing to let this happen. As a parent I say yes I am willing to do that. Why do I say as a parent? Because as a parent i have to let my son fail. Even though i want to protect him and help him anyway I can. he needs to learn that Dad is not always gonna be there and nothing is easy or free.
Ray
[/quote]

I absolutely agree. But the bleeding hearts never will.

'Rani

[StreetBob]

Mandatory drug testing... many of us that are paying for the welfare are require to be drug free, why shouldn't the recipients? That should help separate the needy from the lazy.

[TheScotsman]

[quote name='Dr. B' date='24 February 2010 - 01:12 PM' timestamp='1267038766' post='453449']
[b][u]Loans. Interest free loans with a grace period for repayment of principal[/u][/b] of whatever the frictional unemployment coefficient is multiplied by 2 or so, since the typical welfare recipient isn't a skilled laborer. If the recipient continues to be disposed, they can apply for one of many unskilled public jobs for the betterment of society like building roads, cooking at homeless shelters, etc; and pay back the initial loan and apply for a second to secure time to hunt for a better job.

I'm all for temporary assistance, but there's a point at which dues have to be payed.

/rough idea
[/quote]

Bahahahh.....


Oh, shit... you're serious!



Ya, fanny mae, and freddie mac tried that at the dumbocraps direction.
It's not ending well.

[Dr. B]

the difference being that Fanny & Freddie are not actual people with arms and legs, capable of swinging a pitchfork or sledge hammer.

jumping the gun? why am I not surpised?

[Venger]

[quote name='Dr. B' date='01 March 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1267499236' post='454676']
the difference being that Fanny & Freddie are not actual people with arms and legs, capable of swinging a pitchfork or sledge hammer.

jumping the gun? why am I not surpised?
[/quote]
what you fail to grasp is we have taught most people on welfare that it will always be there. we have instilled a laziness into a select group of people. the only way to break the cycle is stop helping and let them decide to succeed or fail. There will be causalities but we can beat this.
trust in the fact we are all born to survive
Ray.

[jezter6]

For once it appears I'm not alone on this debate. I'm happy to see others agree with some of my thoughts.

1) Work for Welfare. THere's NO reason why someone on welfare should be paid to sit at home. If we're giving them money, let's give them a job that benefits the people (us who pay taxes) that provide that money for their welfare check. Cleaning gov't offices, picking up trash on the road, babysitting welfare children while their parents are doing those other jobs. Whatever it is, let's make some sort of payback to society. Right now, I don't care if it's a 40 hour workweek, I care that we START doing something that benefits society as a whole.

2) We need to make welfare less attractive. Sure, it's not all that attractive in most communities, but it's attractive enough that people are still ok being on it. I believe we need to worsen the image of welfare just a little bit more, give some negative reinforcement to those that live on it all the time. Sort of like the "Scarlet Letter" scenario. It used to be that people had to buy special WIC cheese and only generic cereal, etc...listen to comedians like Chris Rock talk about welfare and how bad stuff like that is growing up. Back then, you felt ashamed to be on welfare. Now we have people bragging about it. I don't know the true answer to this, but we need to find a way to shame people into getting off welfare.

3) We need to stop abuse. If you're on welfare and are driving a Mercedes - someone f-ed up somewhere. I'd rather grow the government a little (yes, I'm a staunch conservative anti-government-growth guy) to employ means to SAVE even more money by finding these abuses and getting our money back.

4) I think we're a little too generous. As with #2, people see that we're willing to provide just a little too much of a nice life for someone living on welfare. Instead of paying rent subsidy, we need to really revamp the whole Sec-8 housing thing and put people into a little more crappy place. Make that apartment small and cramped, just enough room to put beds and cook food. No room for sectional sofas and big screen TVs. Make it uncomfortable to be on welfare and give motivation to get off of it. If we continue to provide the same standard of living to welfare recipients, there is no motivation to get out of the system.

That's all for now, but I figure I'll stir up some argument and will think of some other cool things to add.