Serious Starbuzz Discussion

[ih303]

The other day I was speaking to someone in the industry who told me some things about Starbuzz that were inconsistent with what I've learned in years past. This is slightly troubling because I sell a little SB at my lounge and don't want to be misrepresenting their product.

Now, you might say to yourself, "Why doesn't he just call SB and ask them?" I don't do that for the same reason why I don't trust a car salesman to tell me about a car - industry people lie. Not all of them and not all the time, but enough that we should take everything we hear/read with a grain of salt. The value I see in this forum is that most of us don't have anything to lose/gain from the information we disclose about brands and products. This results in more objective, unbiased reviews and opinions.

Anyway, here we go.

1) Is SB washed or unwashed, really?

2) How important is the whole wash process anyway? Is it only for removing nicotine?

3) Is buzz nature or nurture? (i.e. is it more dependent on the plant or the process)

4) How accurate are the nicotine measurements on the packaging? Can buzz level be forecasted using this number?

5) What determines tobacco quality? Is there some scale or standard somewhere?

6) On a scale of 1 - 10, where does SB fall based solely on [b]quality[/b]?


Any help/input is greatly appreciated. I'm really trying to separate the signal from the noise here.

[Tyler]

1) Is SB washed or unwashed, really?

SB is washed

2) How important is the whole wash process anyway? Is it only for removing nicotine?

Don't really know about this

3) Is buzz nature or nurture? (i.e. is it more dependent on the plant or the process)

SB has no buzz, everyone knows that

4) How accurate are the nicotine measurements on the packaging? Can buzz level be forecasted using this number?

Unaccurate, no.

5) What determines tobacco quality? Is there some scale or standard somewhere?

Depends what a person looks for. Buzz, flavor, clouds, longevity, and product ingredients all play a role.

6) On a scale of 1 - 10, where does SB fall based solely on [b]quality[/b]?

SB on a whole is probably a 7.5 on quality with a very few flavors making it to a perfect 10. These flavors can be counted on one hand in my opinion: pomberry, fuzzy lemonade, flower power, pineapple, tangerine dream. The use of dyes bring down the quality a lot, as does its honey-glycerine formula that overcoats the tobacco.

[ih303]

A couple of things. In terms, quality is not subjective but objective. I'm not talking about taste, flavors, or popularity. I'm talking about the quality of the tobacco itself. Like two pieces of furniture, identical in appearance, but one's made of wood, the other of fiber board. That kind of quality.

And my buzz question, nature vs. nurture, I'm wondering if the potency of the nicotine is dependent more on the tobacco itself or the process(es) the tobacco goes through. Like how cigarette companies use ammonia to enhance the effects of nicotine in cigarettes.

[joytron]

Do you mean the quality of the ingredients used? I still think that is subjective.

[Hippo_Master]

[quote name='ih303' date='04 March 2010 - 08:33 AM' timestamp='1267713205' post='455223']
The other day I was speaking to someone in the industry who told me some things about Starbuzz that were inconsistent with what I've learned in years past. This is slightly troubling because I sell a little SB at my lounge and don't want to be misrepresenting their product.

Now, you might say to yourself, "Why doesn't he just call SB and ask them?" I don't do that for the same reason why I don't trust a car salesman to tell me about a car - industry people lie. Not all of them and not all the time, but enough that we should take everything we hear/read with a grain of salt. The value I see in this forum is that most of us don't have anything to lose/gain from the information we disclose about brands and products. This results in more objective, unbiased reviews and opinions.

Anyway, here we go.

1) Is SB washed or unwashed, really?

2) How important is the whole wash process anyway? Is it only for removing nicotine?

3) Is buzz nature or nurture? (i.e. is it more dependent on the plant or the process)

4) How accurate are the nicotine measurements on the packaging? Can buzz level be forecasted using this number?

5) What determines tobacco quality? Is there some scale or standard somewhere?

6) On a scale of 1 - 10, where does SB fall based solely on [b]quality[/b]?


Any help/input is greatly appreciated. I'm really trying to separate the signal from the noise here.
[/quote]


1) I have read, heard, read, heard and heard and read more that it is washed. Whether that matters or not is an Eric question. From what I have experienced, it is based on the type of base tobacco used.

2) Some have said that it is important for the binding process of the flavors to the tobacco, etc. I think that it doesn't really matter as long as the tobacco and other additives are exposed to the flavoring long enough. I would think that washing the tobacco would remove the natural flavorings of the tobacco.

3) It's dependent on the plant. Which leads me to 4...

4) Every plant has a different level, and it is impossible to measure every single individual plant for a nicotine level in order to mass produce a product in which people only care about "if it buzzes or it doesn't". The levels are inaccurate to a point - certain types of tobacco plants have an average nicotine level, therefore it is possible to estimate.

5) Tobacco Quality is based on many factors: Where it's grown, how it's grown, how it's cured, where it's cured, how long it's cured, how true and clean the flavor is when smoked, the aroma before being lit, the aroma after lighting. With tobacco used in Hookah Tobacco products, it seems that the companies that really crank out the batches use very low quality "Virginian" tobacco - these include Nakhla, SB, SS, Fantasia, HH.. etc. I would personally consider the product used in Tangiers tobacco the highest quality base tobacco I have smoked available in the US, but FAR behind the quality of that I have smoked from Syria and many Middle Eastern countries. SB uses the lowest quality, mass produced tobacco to create their finished product. It is obviously not cured with any ending flavoring goal, and I believe it is grown for the sole purpose of "mixing tobacco" or even filler tobacco BECAUSE of the lack of natural flavoring. I have rad that SS tobacco is not washed, which simply means to me that they use extremely low quality filler tobacco. But it doesn't matter in the long run, because most of us simply care more about how well it takes heat, how well it smokes, and how good the flavor is.

6) This is a very relative question. I may look for things in hookah tobacco products others could care less about. Rating the base tobacco though, I'd give it a 2 in comparison to tangiers, which I'd give a 5, and something like a family brand from Syria I'd give a 10.


**** Oh yeah, forgot to say that this is based off what I have read online, not only about hookah tobacco but about cigars and pipes alike. Some info is also based off of personal experience. Edited March 4, 2010 by Hippo_Master

[ih303]

[quote name='joytron' date='04 March 2010 - 09:37 AM' timestamp='1267720656' post='455234']
Do you mean the quality of the ingredients used? I still think that is subjective.
[/quote]

What I mean by this is standardized measures used in the industry to grade tobacco. Everything from meat to lumber to dogs has some standard by which to measure and grade. I don't know much about tobacco so I can only assume there is such a standard.

[ih303]

[quote name='Hippo_Master' date='04 March 2010 - 09:48 AM' timestamp='1267721297' post='455239']
1) I have read, heard, read, heard and heard and read more that it is washed. Whether that matters or not is an Eric question. From what I have experienced, it is based on the type of base tobacco used.

2) Some have said that it is important for the binding process of the flavors to the tobacco, etc. I think that it doesn't really matter as long as the tobacco and other additives are exposed to the flavoring long enough. I would think that washing the tobacco would remove the natural flavorings of the tobacco.

3) It's dependent on the plant. Which leads me to 4...

4) Every plant has a different level, and it is impossible to measure every single individual plant for a nicotine level in order to mass produce a product in which people only care about "if it buzzes or it doesn't". The levels are inaccurate to a point - certain types of tobacco plants have an average nicotine level, therefore it is possible to estimate.

5) Tobacco Quality is based on many factors: Where it's grown, how it's grown, how it's cured, where it's cured, how long it's cured, how true and clean the flavor is when smoked, the aroma before being lit, the aroma after lighting. With tobacco used in Hookah Tobacco products, it seems that the companies that really crank out the batches use very low quality "Virginian" tobacco - these include Nakhla, SB, SS, Fantasia, HH.. etc. I would personally consider the product used in Tangiers tobacco the highest quality base tobacco I have smoked available in the US, but FAR behind the quality of that I have smoked from Syria and many Middle Eastern countries. SB uses the lowest quality, mass produced tobacco to create their finished product. It is obviously not cured with any ending flavoring goal, and I believe it is grown for the sole purpose of "mixing tobacco" or even filler tobacco BECAUSE of the lack of natural flavoring. I have rad that SS tobacco is not washed, which simply means to me that they use extremely low quality filler tobacco. But it doesn't matter in the long run, because most of us simply care more about how well it takes heat, how well it smokes, and how good the flavor is.

6) This is a very relative question. I may look for things in hookah tobacco products others could care less about. Rating the base tobacco though, I'd give it a 2 in comparison to tangiers, which I'd give a 5, and something like a family brand from Syria I'd give a 10.


**** Oh yeah, forgot to say that this is based off what I have read online, not only about hookah tobacco but about cigars and pipes alike. Some info is also based off of personal experience.
[/quote]

This is what I'm after.

A couple of questions, though.

In response #1, you said you thought SB was washed but in response #5 you say you thought it was unwashed. What do you mean?

I'm sure that tobacco varies in potency depending on the type. Is potency directly related to quality, i.e. the more potent the nicotine in the tobacco, the higher the quality?


The way I see it, most people don't smoke flavored tobacco for the tobacco taste. Therefore, it would follow that the tobacco in shisha is really no more than a medium for flavor and, depending on the type and process, nicotine. It would seem, and this is evident in the varieties of herbal shisha available, you could use whatever you wanted so long as it didnt' interfere with the flavor while burning. I'm not implying that SB is using something other than tobacco, only that for a brand like SB with their super sweet flavors, it really does not matter what grade of tobacco they use at all. And cheaper tobacco = higher profits. Hmm...

[Chreees]

[quote name='Hippo_Master' date='04 March 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1267721297' post='455239']
5) Tobacco Quality is based on many factors: Where it's grown, how it's grown, how it's cured, where it's cured, how long it's cured, how true and clean the flavor is when smoked, the aroma before being lit, the aroma after lighting. With tobacco used in Hookah Tobacco products, it seems that the companies that really crank out the batches use very low quality [b]"Virginian" tobacco[/b] - these include [b]Nakhla[/b], SB, SS, Fantasia, HH.. etc. I would personally consider the product used in Tangiers tobacco the highest quality base tobacco I have smoked available in the US, [b]but FAR behind the quality of that I have smoked from Syria and many Middle Eastern countries[/b]. SB uses the lowest quality, mass produced tobacco to create their finished product. It is obviously not cured with any ending flavoring goal, and I believe it is grown for the sole purpose of "mixing tobacco" or even filler tobacco BECAUSE of the lack of natural flavoring. I have rad that SS tobacco is not washed, which simply means to me that they use extremely low quality filler tobacco. But it doesn't matter in the long run, because most of us simply care more about how well it takes heat, how well it smokes, and how good the flavor is.
[/quote]

Wait, so Nakhla that is made in the Middle East uses American-grown tobacco?! I had no idea...

[joytron]

I believe virginian tobacco is now the type of plant and not where it is grown

[Chreees]

[quote name='joytron' date='04 March 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1267743554' post='455283']
I believe virginian tobacco is now the type of plant and not where it is grown
[/quote]

Ah, okay. This I did not know.

EDIT: But either way, I would not put Nakhla in with that category of "SB, SS, Fantasia, HH.. etc."

[Hippo_Master]

[quote name='ih303' date='04 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1267725806' post='455254']
[quote name='Hippo_Master' date='04 March 2010 - 09:48 AM' timestamp='1267721297' post='455239']
1) I have read, heard, read, heard and heard and read more that it is washed. Whether that matters or not is an Eric question. From what I have experienced, it is based on the type of base tobacco used.

2) Some have said that it is important for the binding process of the flavors to the tobacco, etc. I think that it doesn't really matter as long as the tobacco and other additives are exposed to the flavoring long enough. I would think that washing the tobacco would remove the natural flavorings of the tobacco.

3) It's dependent on the plant. Which leads me to 4...

4) Every plant has a different level, and it is impossible to measure every single individual plant for a nicotine level in order to mass produce a product in which people only care about "if it buzzes or it doesn't". The levels are inaccurate to a point - certain types of tobacco plants have an average nicotine level, therefore it is possible to estimate.

5) Tobacco Quality is based on many factors: Where it's grown, how it's grown, how it's cured, where it's cured, how long it's cured, how true and clean the flavor is when smoked, the aroma before being lit, the aroma after lighting. With tobacco used in Hookah Tobacco products, it seems that the companies that really crank out the batches use very low quality "Virginian" tobacco - these include Nakhla, SB, SS, Fantasia, HH.. etc. I would personally consider the product used in Tangiers tobacco the highest quality base tobacco I have smoked available in the US, but FAR behind the quality of that I have smoked from Syria and many Middle Eastern countries. SB uses the lowest quality, mass produced tobacco to create their finished product. It is obviously not cured with any ending flavoring goal, and I believe it is grown for the sole purpose of "mixing tobacco" or even filler tobacco BECAUSE of the lack of natural flavoring. I have rad that SS tobacco is not washed, which simply means to me that they use extremely low quality filler tobacco. But it doesn't matter in the long run, because most of us simply care more about how well it takes heat, how well it smokes, and how good the flavor is.

6) This is a very relative question. I may look for things in hookah tobacco products others could care less about. Rating the base tobacco though, I'd give it a 2 in comparison to tangiers, which I'd give a 5, and something like a family brand from Syria I'd give a 10.


**** Oh yeah, forgot to say that this is based off what I have read online, not only about hookah tobacco but about cigars and pipes alike. Some info is also based off of personal experience.
[/quote]

This is what I'm after.

A couple of questions, though.

In response #1, you said you thought SB was washed but in response #5 you say you thought it was unwashed. What do you mean?

I'm sure that tobacco varies in potency depending on the type. Is potency directly related to quality, i.e. the more potent the nicotine in the tobacco, the higher the quality?


The way I see it, most people don't smoke flavored tobacco for the tobacco taste. Therefore, it would follow that the tobacco in shisha is really no more than a medium for flavor and, depending on the type and process, nicotine. It would seem, and this is evident in the varieties of herbal shisha available, you could use whatever you wanted so long as it didnt' interfere with the flavor while burning. I'm not implying that SB is using something other than tobacco, only that for a brand like SB with their super sweet flavors, it really does not matter what grade of tobacco they use at all. And cheaper tobacco = higher profits. Hmm...
[/quote]

- I said SS, social smoke tobacco.

- Quality is not based on potency, this isn't tobacco's long lost cousin we are talking about here...

- You are exactly right.

[shaffaaf27]

i do know that SB is washed

[hookahlou]

Good conversation, guys.

[ih303]

So, after a little searching, I was able to dig [url="http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3013848&acct=tgeninfo"]this[/url] up. From what I can tell, potency is not used as a factor anywhere to determine quality. But is higher quality/grade tobacco also more potent?


If it's common knowledge that SB is washed, why would this industry person who has worked extensively with SB say it's not? It seems like I heard at one point that some of their stuff used to be unwashed. I just wonder what has changed and what hasn't.

[Hippo_Master]

[quote name='INCUBUSRATM' date='04 March 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1267745212' post='455285']
[quote name='joytron' date='04 March 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1267743554' post='455283']
I believe virginian tobacco is now the type of plant and not where it is grown
[/quote]

Ah, okay. This I did not know.

EDIT: But either way, I would not put Nakhla in with that category of "SB, SS, Fantasia, HH.. etc."
[/quote]



In regards to style and quality, fuck no, Nakhla hammers that shit down with the mighty hammer of Thor. But in terms of base tobacco, I sure it's possibly even lower quality then s.me other brands. There's no way to sell a product that cheap and use even a medium quality leaf

[mattarios2]

I don't know what to think in regards to the nakhla discussion.

Because I could see one persons arguement that there is NO WAY it uses even medium quality tobacco because of how cheap it is.

But then when you ask Eric for his top 5 list of tobaccos excluding tangiers for obvious reasons, he says number 1 is Nakhla. And I don't think someone as smart and highly educated on the topic of tobacco would rate a brand so highly if the tobacco was junk but it tasted good ... or would he?

[ih303]

[quote name='mattarios2' date='05 March 2010 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1267811035' post='455419']
I don't know what to think in regards to the nakhla discussion.

Because I could see one persons arguement that there is NO WAY it uses even medium quality tobacco because of how cheap it is.

But then when you ask Eric for his top 5 list of tobaccos excluding tangiers for obvious reasons, he says number 1 is Nakhla. And I don't think someone as smart and highly educated on the topic of tobacco would rate a brand so highly if the tobacco was junk but it tasted good ... or would he?
[/quote]

Obviously, different things mean more to different people. In order to understand someone's top five list, we'd have to know which criteria they are using.

The criteria I'm curious about is the measurable quality/grade of the raw tobacco based on a uniform standard as defined by some official governing body.

[mattarios2]

Yes I understand that, but what I am saying is I highly doubt Eric would solely base it off taste, or buzz or whatever. I am sure he takes everything into consideration, including the tobacco ... but I could be wrong.

[ih303]

I wish there was some way to find out who uses what tobacco. Although, I've been told SB imports their tobacco from Jordan so I suppose it wouldn't really matter.