Idea For Mushy To Save His Bar!

[liquidglass]

I was driving home tonight and thinking about Hookah Bliss and how it could get around the law. And I remembered something.

In Japan gambling is entirely illegal. However there are pachinko establishments in every city. Where you win "ball bearings," trade them for crappy prizes, then go around the corner and trade those prizes back to the same establishment thru a window for money. So it's gambling, it's just a process of it.


Suddenly and Idea struck me.......[font="Impact"][size="7"][color="#008000"]Bliss Bucks![/color][/size][/font]
The idea I have is rough right now but the basics are this. Instead of reporting sales of food and drink then you would report sales as merchandise which would exclude your bar from the food/smoking law. The ideas are as follows not sure which would be best to follow.

1) Have people pay you for something, then give them bliss bucks immediately (thus they bought the bucks) then have them pay for the item in the bliss bucks (tada)
(which is one reason arcades do more of the tokens or credit type gaming rather than quarters)

2) Have someone pay you say$2 Give them the bliss bucks, and a "free gift of their choice" (perhaps they'll pick a soda ).


* Then you could even have a chart on Bliss Bucks, so if someone "cashes in" 5 bliss bucks they get a drink. 25 bliss bucks is a free bowl of shisha.


really play with the idea as long as the real USA money is being used to purchase something non-food then you are not violating the law. the law doesn't dictate what you can do with your own brand of currency within your own shop.


These are not 100% bullet proof to the individual but legally they couldn't touch you. It'd require a little more work but hey who cares no more fines lol.

[Rani]

[quote name='liquidglass' date='11 March 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1268378339' post='456741']
I was driving home tonight and thinking about Hookah Bliss and how it could get around the law. And I remembered something.

In Japan gambling is entirely illegal. However there are pachinko establishments in every city. Where you win "ball bearings," trade them for crappy prizes, then go around the corner and trade those prizes back to the same establishment thru a window for money. So it's gambling, it's just a process of it.


Suddenly and Idea struck me.......[font="Impact"][size="7"][color="#008000"]Bliss Bucks![/color][/size][/font]
The idea I have is rough right now but the basics are this. Instead of reporting sales of food and drink then you would report sales as merchandise which would exclude your bar from the food/smoking law. The ideas are as follows not sure which would be best to follow.

1) Have people pay you for something, then give them bliss bucks immediately (thus they bought the bucks) then have them pay for the item in the bliss bucks (tada)
(which is one reason arcades do more of the tokens or credit type gaming rather than quarters)

2) Have someone pay you say$2 Give them the bliss bucks, and a "free gift of their choice" (perhaps they'll pick a soda ).


* Then you could even have a chart on Bliss Bucks, so if someone "cashes in" 5 bliss bucks they get a drink. 25 bliss bucks is a free bowl of shisha.


really play with the idea as long as the real USA money is being used to purchase something non-food then you are not violating the law. the law doesn't dictate what you can do with your own brand of currency within your own shop.


These are not 100% bullet proof to the individual but legally they couldn't touch you. It'd require a little more work but hey who cares no more fines lol.
[/quote]

Gotta love the creative idea. I think the key to whether or not it would work is does the law specifically say "sell" or "serve"? If it says "serve" then I would think this wouldn't work........... but if it says "sell", there's got to be this or similar ways to get around officially "selling" food and drink.

'Rani

[bigtoepfer]

the answer for us is to not charge for hookah. You charge a cover per person to get in. say 8$ and 10$ for singles. And you give them a hookah when they come in if they want it if they don't then you don't. You are charging to get into a private lounge. for ever two people who pay 8$ give em a hook and for the single they get their own. You are a retail shop at this point and you are allowing people for a cover to taste test the product. But you aren't forcing them to. Thats how we did it. Thats not the whole deal but thats a rough explanation. just an idea

[liquidglass]

[quote name='Rani' date='12 March 2010 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1268378956' post='456742']
[quote name='liquidglass' date='11 March 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1268378339' post='456741']
I was driving home tonight and thinking about Hookah Bliss and how it could get around the law. And I remembered something.

In Japan gambling is entirely illegal. However there are pachinko establishments in every city. Where you win "ball bearings," trade them for crappy prizes, then go around the corner and trade those prizes back to the same establishment thru a window for money. So it's gambling, it's just a process of it.


Suddenly and Idea struck me.......[font="Impact"][size="7"][color="#008000"]Bliss Bucks![/color][/size][/font]
The idea I have is rough right now but the basics are this. Instead of reporting sales of food and drink then you would report sales as merchandise which would exclude your bar from the food/smoking law. The ideas are as follows not sure which would be best to follow.

1) Have people pay you for something, then give them bliss bucks immediately (thus they bought the bucks) then have them pay for the item in the bliss bucks (tada)
(which is one reason arcades do more of the tokens or credit type gaming rather than quarters)

2) Have someone pay you say$2 Give them the bliss bucks, and a "free gift of their choice" (perhaps they'll pick a soda ).


* Then you could even have a chart on Bliss Bucks, so if someone "cashes in" 5 bliss bucks they get a drink. 25 bliss bucks is a free bowl of shisha.


really play with the idea as long as the real USA money is being used to purchase something non-food then you are not violating the law. the law doesn't dictate what you can do with your own brand of currency within your own shop.


These are not 100% bullet proof to the individual but legally they couldn't touch you. It'd require a little more work but hey who cares no more fines lol.
[/quote]

Gotta love the creative idea. I think the key to whether or not it would work is does the law specifically say "sell" or "serve"? If it says "serve" then I would think this wouldn't work........... but if it says "sell", there's got to be this or similar ways to get around officially "selling" food and drink.

'Rani
[/quote]


If I remember properly it says no more than 25% of your income can come from food/drink. If it's above this percentage then you are under the "no smoking" law

Thanks for the compliment Rani Always good to get your opinion



[quote name='bigtoepfer' date='12 March 2010 - 02:36 AM' timestamp='1268379404' post='456743']
the answer for us is to not charge for hookah. You charge a cover per person to get in. say 8$ and 10$ for singles. And you give them a hookah when they come in if they want it if they don't then you don't. You are charging to get into a private lounge. for ever two people who pay 8$ give em a hook and for the single they get their own. You are a retail shop at this point and you are allowing people for a cover to taste test the product. But you aren't forcing them to. Thats how we did it. Thats not the whole deal but thats a rough explanation. just an idea
[/quote]


That's not a bad idea man. Not sure if the NC law is the same as the TX. But maybe. He had talked about making it a "private" lounge to get around the law but never got around to it.

Like I said above I believe I remember it being about a percentage of sales dealing with food and drink. If that's the case there's no smoking at all allowed. But your idea also circumvents that so that might work too!

Hopefully he can get an idea so he can start beating these fines!

[delSol_si]

i vote you hire a shady accountant..."whats that? miscellaneous expense?" "hookah revenue? never heard of it"

LG, i think your idea may not be bad. the only thing i would fear is some jerkoff coming in there and making trouble somehow.

[Charley]

I still vote for the web cam idea.

[PSU Smoker]

[quote name='liquidglass' date='12 March 2010 - 02:18 AM' timestamp='1268378339' post='456741']
I was driving home tonight and thinking about Hookah Bliss and how it could get around the law. And I remembered something.

In Japan gambling is entirely illegal. However there are pachinko establishments in every city. Where you win "ball bearings," trade them for crappy prizes, then go around the corner and trade those prizes back to the same establishment thru a window for money. So it's gambling, it's just a process of it.


Suddenly and Idea struck me.......[font="Impact"][size="7"][color="#008000"]Bliss Bucks![/color][/size][/font]
The idea I have is rough right now but the basics are this. Instead of reporting sales of food and drink then you would report sales as merchandise which would exclude your bar from the food/smoking law. The ideas are as follows not sure which would be best to follow.

1) Have people pay you for something, then give them bliss bucks immediately (thus they bought the bucks) then have them pay for the item in the bliss bucks (tada)
(which is one reason arcades do more of the tokens or credit type gaming rather than quarters)

2) Have someone pay you say$2 Give them the bliss bucks, and a "free gift of their choice" (perhaps they'll pick a soda ).


* Then you could even have a chart on Bliss Bucks, so if someone "cashes in" 5 bliss bucks they get a drink. 25 bliss bucks is a free bowl of shisha.


really play with the idea as long as the real USA money is being used to purchase something non-food then you are not violating the law. the law doesn't dictate what you can do with your own brand of currency within your own shop.


These are not 100% bullet proof to the individual but legally they couldn't touch you. It'd require a little more work but hey who cares no more fines lol.
[/quote]

hate to kinda shoot your idea down cause it is an awesome one. But im 99% sure that if you are serving food to the general public you are subject to health inspections. But like someone else said about having a certain percent of your revenue coming from food is what qualifies/ unqualifies you from the laws. Why not serve free food with every hookah. The more expensive the hookah you buy the more expensive food you can order. Refills are free (expect on beer more expensive hookahs could include multiple free drinks). Essentially pair everything on your menu with a hookah =)

[r1v3th3ad]

thats brilliant and sounds fool-proof

[Rani]

[quote name='r1v3th3ad' date='12 March 2010 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1268423603' post='456798']
thats brilliant and sounds fool-proof
[/quote]

It is definitely brilliant, however I think the accounting would be a nightmare. [u]BUT[/u] what if it were all in packages with posted value of everything on the menu? For example:

Economy package $40.00 includes:
1 QT Hookah with 2 bowls of Nakhla - ($38.00 if ordered alone))
2 Bottles domestic beer - free ($5.99 value)
1 Appetizer tray - free ($3.99 value)

(Yes, I know this isn't a good example - just throwing numbers out there.)

You wouldn't sell food an drink alone, and you'd always keep posted value of food and drink under 25% of the entire package. Something like that would simplify the accounting, and although it's still smoke and mirrors it's technically legal on paper and if the authorities show up, you can prove it on paper. Legally you can sell any product you want even at a loss, so just value everything that consists of food and drink way under the 25% mark.

'Rani

[PSU Smoker]

oo very ture...i didnt even think of selling everything for a loss. Just have a bunch of specials. Some including a bowl and drinks and appatizer, others just including bowls and beer. Also if people want additional beer outside of their Package deal you could always sell with a coal =)

[Allstar]

OK here is an idea, in Virginia Beach. Most of the places along the beach require you to buy food if you are going to drink. This is because there are no bars only resturants, they have to maintain a level of food sells to keep their liquor license. Maybe you could bump up your hookah price, take the food down a little bit more to even things out and require everyone to smoke the $10 hookah or pay a $10 cover instead. That will keep your income higher rather than it becoming higher from the food and drink.

[Jeff_T]

I like the ideas liquid and PSU, although I think PSU's may be easier/better to implement.

OT, but when I saw the Bliss Bucks thing I immediately thought of The Office and Schrute Bucks... "What's the ratio of Stanley nickels to Schrute Bucks?", "Same as the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns"

[mushrat]

Sorry, been a bit distracted of late. I appreciate everything you all are going but here's the deal in NC.

I don't want to find a sneaky way around the law, it will eventually bite me in the Ass. I want a straight up legal fight in court between well paid lawyers to decide this issue. I want to be able to say we did out best and won or lost, we were honest, unlike the lawmakers. To me there is a moral high ground here and I'd like to hold onto it.

The issue here isn't %. its if you sell food or alcohol at ALL. I would be safe if i just stopped serving beer for instance. Now the problem is that makes up 25% of my gross. And it's hard to find something to replace that money with if I have to stop selling it. But we'll see what happens.
Thanks for the ideas and support friends...

[PSU Smoker]

[quote name='mushrat' date='13 March 2010 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1268503984' post='456915']
Sorry, been a bit distracted of late. I appreciate everything you all are going but here's the deal in NC.

I don't want to find a sneaky way around the law, it will eventually bite me in the Ass. I want a straight up legal fight in court between well paid lawyers to decide this issue. I want to be able to say we did out best and won or lost, we were honest, unlike the lawmakers. To me there is a moral high ground here and I'd like to hold onto it.

The issue here isn't %. its if you sell food or alcohol at ALL. I would be safe if i just stopped serving beer for instance. Now the problem is that makes up 25% of my gross. And it's hard to find something to replace that money with if I have to stop selling it. But we'll see what happens.
Thanks for the ideas and support friends...
[/quote]


Best of luck Mush!!

[nars2k]

I wish you the best of luck Mush. Keep us updated on how everything goes.

[antouwan]

[quote name='mushrat' date='13 March 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1268503984' post='456915']
Sorry, been a bit distracted of late. I appreciate everything you all are going but here's the deal in NC.

I don't want to find a sneaky way around the law, it will eventually bite me in the Ass. I want a straight up legal fight in court between well paid lawyers to decide this issue. I want to be able to say we did out best and won or lost, we were honest, unlike the lawmakers. To me there is a moral high ground here and I'd like to hold onto it.

The issue here isn't %. its if you sell food or alcohol at ALL. I would be safe if i just stopped serving beer for instance. Now the problem is that makes up 25% of my gross. And [b]it's hard to find something to replace that money with if I have to stop selling it.[/b] But we'll see what happens.
Thanks for the ideas and support friends...
[/quote]

B.Y.O.B./BYOW and charge a 'corking fee' per bottle/can whatever. You can even provide chilled glasses if you want, but you technically aren't selling the beer, but you're still making money off of it - 100% revenue, mind you. If you used to mark up the beer and make 1 buck or 50 cents /beer, just keep that number and charge a 50 cent 'corking' fee/bottle.

[PSU Smoker]

BYOB is a great idea if the liquor laws allow it in the area, not sure on the newest law to if it pertains to alcohol being sold in the venue or just consumed. If the latter the same problem still exists

[Charley]

could you not just increase your tobacco sales by going online?

I mean sell it online from the bar to increase the ratio of tobacco to food/alcohol?

you already have a few hundred loyal customers right here who would be more then happy to buy from you online if you keep the prices competitive with other vendors.

[Rani]

I understand taking the higher moral and legal ground.......An important aspect to consider is whether our national climate still allows for such stands and fairness to prevail. I'm fairly certain we're right at the edge, if not over it. And when do we come to accept and adjust our actions rather than keep fighting windmills. That has to be a personal decision. But if it's the fairness and legality of the fight, what about the constitutionality of the law?

Somewhere in the fine print (and no, I don't remember where and I'm too lazy to re-read the Constitution today), there's very specific wording that laws cannot be passed retroactively. Legally that has been proven to mean business already in business at the time the law passes must be grandfathered into allowance but no new businesses could be opened. It requires the lawsuit you're trying to put together, but it's a very potent argument with the most potential to win I would think.

'Rani

[Travis]

[quote name='Jeff_T' date='13 March 2010 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1268466583' post='456881']
I like the ideas liquid and PSU, although I think PSU's may be easier/better to implement.

OT, but when I saw the Bliss Bucks thing I immediately thought of The Office and Schrute Bucks... "What's the ratio of Stanley nickels to Schrute Bucks?", "Same as the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns"
[/quote]

Lol i thought i was the only one, ive always loved your avatar btw!

Personally i think that Adam should just keep fighting, i know sounds weird but hear me out.
If he does come out on top, it will be a great breakthrough for the hookah community. A domino effect will hopefully take place, causing other bars/lounges to try and succeed in the business.

Plus if he started doing this they would just ban Bliss Bucks lol.

[TexasHookah]

Good luck mushrat!!! Pretty sure these laws will be coming our way in Texas soon too.

[Jeff_T]

Not really sure if this would be possible or feasible, but could you start another business Mush that is connected to Hookah Bliss that sells alcohol/food and just allow the product to be consumed in the lounge?

[liquidglass]

[quote name='tpatt90' date='13 March 2010 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1268522044' post='456964']
[quote name='Jeff_T' date='13 March 2010 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1268466583' post='456881']
I like the ideas liquid and PSU, although I think PSU's may be easier/better to implement.

OT, but when I saw the Bliss Bucks thing I immediately thought of The Office and Schrute Bucks... "What's the ratio of Stanley nickels to Schrute Bucks?", "Same as the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns"
[/quote]

Lol i thought i was the only one, ive always loved your avatar btw!

Personally i think that Adam should just keep fighting, i know sounds weird but hear me out.
If he does come out on top, it will be a great breakthrough for the hookah community. A domino effect will hopefully take place, causing other bars/lounges to try and succeed in the business.

Plus if he started doing this they would just ban Bliss Bucks lol.
[/quote]

that's the beauty of it you can't ban private merchandise

It isn't really shady either it's just a work around so it would work