thatonethere Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Since there are more women on this forum, I would be most interested in hearing what you have to say regarding this topic. Do you believe it's ok? Yay or nay? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuie Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I am interested too. Oh heck I will throw my 2 cents. Being a new father... I think people are crazy that consider it. I am not saying I am one of those right wing crazy pro-lifers. But I don't think abortions shouldn't be so easily obtainable. I had a friend visit a psych facility after hers. I have always wondered the statistics on that aspect. On the mental health afterwards. I mean I am considering Lap-Band and I have to get a freaking psych eval but women considering abortion don't. Come on this isn't just a mole removal or something mundane like that. Personally I think abortion should be used only as an option in the case of endangering the mother's life. Also where is the man's rights? I can't believe how easily men's rights are dismissed in this issue. Stuie's Little Comparison Story: Mark invests money in a property with Mary to buy and flip a house for profit. Mark provides the money and Mary does the work, they reap the reward together. Mary backs out, Mark get's screwed over takes Mary to court for current damages and loss on his investment in the future. All this to say...Women who say it's your body, destroy the man's DNA with authorization. Only situation where the woman wouldn't get sued and taken for everything she owns. Having a daughter myself... i literally can't understand it. [img]http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs363.snc3/23457_773777890980_23901952_42718507_5667403_n.jpg[/img] Look at her... I mean come on... look what that little fetus became... I come every day to that little smile and she just melts my heart. You will never be ready for children, maturity wise, financially, or logically... but they are worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.mallia Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Agree with Stuie. I wouldn't know anything about kids, I mean I'm only 20, but look at her Innocence is the best trait to have, the first one to lose. Congratz stuie that's one cute lady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuie Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 [quote name='Stuie' date='30 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1269968407' post='460796'] Look at her... I mean come on... look what that little fetus became... I come [u][i][b]home [/b][/i][/u]every day to that little smile and she just melts my heart. [/quote] *EDIT* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brigita Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Are we debating whether its morally okay or ethically okay, or are we debating whether it should be legal? I don't think abortion is okay or something that should be taken lightly, but I think it is so, so very important that women have a choice as to what they do with their bodies. I do believe that since its their body, it is their choice. Until the fetus can successfully live outside of the body, I believe it is up to the woman as to what she wants to do with it. Even if abortion were illegal, it would still be rampant. It would just happen in unsafe, dirty conditions. You might as well give women a safe, healthy place to have them and avoid the loss of 2 lives. I also fear that once we take that right away from women, what other ones will go away too? I think it would be leading down a slippery slope... yeah, I'm a feminist who worries about this stuff often. In most situations (I am saying most, not all) the guy can leave or run off or do whatever the heck he wants. The woman is most likely going to be stuck with the child for 18 years plus. I don't think it's fair for a woman to have to do that if the father is off in God-knows-where-ville. Anyway, I understand that it really pisses some people off but in the whole abortion thing, I'm really just 100% for the right of women to do what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. B Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 [quote name='Stuie' date='30 March 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1269986048' post='460860'] [quote name='Stuie' date='30 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1269968407' post='460796'] Look at her... I mean come on... look what that little fetus became... I come [u][i][b]home [/b][/i][/u]every day to that little smile and she just melts my heart. [/quote] *EDIT* [/quote] AHAHAHAHAHA!!!! on topic: I am not fundamentally opposed to abortion, but that being said I think it should not be the first option to consider. Matters of the mother's health produce obvious conclusions, but beyond that I think it would be acceptable to get an abortion, say, within the first 2 weeks after conception, if other methods prove ineffective. Just to give yall an idea of how I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuburbanSmoker Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 i feel you on that. coming from someone who has had to deal with this before (pre 18 unfortunantly) if abortion wasnt an option i would quite fucked. For any young person to get pregnant/ get someone pregnant it can literally derail any plans you could have for the future. People younger then 21 cannot handle it, and still be productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brigita Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 [quote name='Stuie' date='30 March 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1269986048' post='460860'] [quote name='Stuie' date='30 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1269968407' post='460796'] Look at her... I mean come on... look what that little fetus became... I come [u][i][b]home [/b][/i][/u]every day to that little smile and she just melts my heart. [/quote] *EDIT* [/quote] LOL. Oh man, I didn't see this before. Picture of Pedobear is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSU Smoker Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Hmmmm...I fall on the fence on this topic. I feel that women should have the right to an abortion if needed for certain reasons. However I would also have to agree that an abortion should be harder to obtain and a pysch eval to be required. Possibly more programs to be widely available for couples who are having a baby and dont want it so an abortion is not needed. As much as I would say I am pro abortion it would completely crush me to have my child aborted regardless of the circumstances. Personally I think it would be something I would think of every day, always wondering what i gave up. But like I said, im still pro abortion and would never hold it against someone who had one for whatever reasons. Stuie your daughter is absolutely gorgeous!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joytron Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 being pretty far left of center this has always been one of the few points that I have really grappled with, feeling that in some way both sides are right. [img]http://www.hookahforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/girl_prepare_fish.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuburbanSmoker Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='PSU Smoker' date='30 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1269990317' post='460874'] Hmmmm...I fall on the fence on this topic. I feel that women should have the right to an abortion if needed for certain reasons. However I would also have to agree that an abortion should be harder to obtain and a pysch eval to be required. Possibly more programs to be widely available for couples who are having a baby and dont want it so an abortion is not needed. As much as I would say I am pro abortion it would completely crush me to have my child aborted regardless of the circumstances. Personally I think it would be something I would think of every day, always wondering what i gave up. But like I said, im still pro abortion and would never hold it against someone who had one for whatever reasons. [/quote] I can understand you saying that it would be mentally taxing, i can get that but think of the amount of financial responsibility a child entails. now you may be in a place to be able to handle that, i dont know. I hate to say its my own personal sense of justification but why on earth would you want to bring another person into this world if you werent ready (even though no man has the right to determine that). And given your personal feelings on the matter its cool you dont past judgement on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rani Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 It's an incredibly tough issue. Anyone who thinks that a woman choosing abortion doesn't know every day for the rest of her life that she's chosen to end a life before it's begun, hasn't had one. I personally have not, but I have several friends who have. And though they believe that they made a necessary choice, it wasn't an easy one by any means. My problem with the abortion issue and those who are pro-life is they don't deal with the reality. There's a group that regularly pickets the women's clinic about a mile away from me. They offer no alternatives. They don't have a list of adoption agencies, they don't have information on private adoptions, open adoptions, ways to find financial aid during pregnancy, no nothing. They just don't want a woman to make that choice and mostly they're assuming it's an easy decision - which no one I know who's had one ever says it was. And I find that these are usually the same people who refuse to provide birth control information. They generally promote celibacy or marriage. Nothing in between. That's not a realistic view of the human race and the way we operate. Should we be better about it? Of course we should, but we aren't likely to be any time in the near future. What's more because our society tends to view sexuality as an embarrassing rather than natural part of our lives, birth control, and "non-pregnancy possible" sexual activity is kept firmly under the carpet. God forbid for instance that a woman publicly admit she masturbates! She's a slut if she does. All of which ends up with people doing what they do and ending up with unwanted pregnancies. My feeling on abortion is that it should never, never be necessary unless there's it's a life threatening pregnancy. Or a development problem with the fetus in which the more human choice may be to terminate the pregnancy. Birth control has certainly reached the level where if you're using it correctly the odds are very, very small of an accidental pregnancy. With good sexual eduction, taking the blinders off alternative activities including masturbation, coupled with good birth control, abortion should be nearly unheard of, certainly not a common fact of life that it is today. So long as we keep hiding our sexuality under the carpet and refusing to admit it exists at all, we're doomed with what we have. Making abortion illegal isn't the answer. When it was illegal, women either left the country and had it performed, or went to some cheap back office that could have costs them their lives. A women who wants an abortion is going to find one. That's just the way it is. So although I'm pro-choice, I believe there's a way to end women having to ever make that choice. And by the way, I do not in any way support medical insurance covering abortion. By doing so, they turn into birth control, and it's not. It's the last choice after when you have no other choice. Or should be anyway. 'Rani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Abortion...As a libertarian I struggle with this. On the one hand people should be able to do what ever they want (as long as it doesn't hurt others) on the other hand If you believe the fetus is a person that as a libertarian I am obligated to protect them from you killing them. Then there is the complete lack of concern for the other dna donor. Its take two to tango and while yes its you womb it is half yours and half his dna. As long as abortion is legal child support should not be compulsory. If I donate dna and I want the baby but she says nope I have no say because its her body. If I don't want the kid but she keeps it I have to pay for the rest of my life without having a say. Lastly who is paying for it. How come a young girl of 15 can get an abortion without her parents consent but my kid needs a note from me or his mom to take an aspirin. Saying we need to keep abortion legal because women will do it anyway in dirty condition is not unlike say we need to give junkies a safe place to do heroin and clean needles cause they are going to do it anyway so it should be safe. with all the available to reliable birth control and adoption as an option why do we need abortion unless the mothers life is in danger or the girl was rape. Abortion should be used for medical safety, not after thought birth control. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSU Smoker Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='SuburbanSmoker' date='30 March 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1269995483' post='460885'] [quote name='PSU Smoker' date='30 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1269990317' post='460874'] Hmmmm...I fall on the fence on this topic. I feel that women should have the right to an abortion if needed for certain reasons. However I would also have to agree that an abortion should be harder to obtain and a pysch eval to be required. Possibly more programs to be widely available for couples who are having a baby and dont want it so an abortion is not needed. As much as I would say I am pro abortion it would completely crush me to have my child aborted regardless of the circumstances. Personally I think it would be something I would think of every day, always wondering what i gave up. But like I said, im still pro abortion and would never hold it against someone who had one for whatever reasons. [/quote] I can understand you saying that it would be mentally taxing, i can get that but think of the amount of financial responsibility a child entails. now you may be in a place to be able to handle that, i dont know. I hate to say its my own personal sense of justification but why on earth would you want to bring another person into this world if you werent ready (even though no man has the right to determine that). And given your personal feelings on the matter its cool you dont past judgement on others. [/quote] Yeah I understand completely and agree with you...I mean currently at this time if i were to have a child I think id be able to drain my bank account until I graduate and get a job to support them. But also I would be run into the ground between working 18 hours a day as a chef and a child. Personally I think I would be able to handle the situation especially with support I would receive from friends and family. However I also understand that everyone isn't as fortunate or at a time in their life where they can nesc properly care for a child and provide for them. This is the part where I am really on the fence...do you have the abortion so that you dont introduce a child into this world without diapers, food, toys, and parents who can be there 24/7 or do you try for the adoption route? Personally as I stated early I would rather adoption over abortion, but what if you cant find parents for the child? I'd much rather have an abortion take place early on while in the early stage of development then in a later trimester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brigita Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='PSU Smoker' date='30 March 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1270002634' post='460920'] [quote name='SuburbanSmoker' date='30 March 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1269995483' post='460885'] [quote name='PSU Smoker' date='30 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1269990317' post='460874'] Hmmmm...I fall on the fence on this topic. I feel that women should have the right to an abortion if needed for certain reasons. However I would also have to agree that an abortion should be harder to obtain and a pysch eval to be required. Possibly more programs to be widely available for couples who are having a baby and dont want it so an abortion is not needed. As much as I would say I am pro abortion it would completely crush me to have my child aborted regardless of the circumstances. Personally I think it would be something I would think of every day, always wondering what i gave up. But like I said, im still pro abortion and would never hold it against someone who had one for whatever reasons. [/quote] I can understand you saying that it would be mentally taxing, i can get that but think of the amount of financial responsibility a child entails. now you may be in a place to be able to handle that, i dont know. I hate to say its my own personal sense of justification but why on earth would you want to bring another person into this world if you werent ready (even though no man has the right to determine that). And given your personal feelings on the matter its cool you dont past judgement on others. [/quote] Yeah I understand completely and agree with you...I mean currently at this time if i were to have a child I think id be able to drain my bank account until I graduate and get a job to support them. But also I would be run into the ground between working 18 hours a day as a chef and a child. Personally I think I would be able to handle the situation especially with support I would receive from friends and family. However I also understand that everyone isn't as fortunate or at a time in their life where they can nesc properly care for a child and provide for them. This is the part where I am really on the fence...do you have the abortion so that you dont introduce a child into this world without diapers, food, toys, and parents who can be there 24/7 or do you try for the adoption route? Personally as I stated early I would rather adoption over abortion, but what if you cant find parents for the child? I'd much rather have an abortion take place early on while in the early stage of development then in a later trimester [/quote] I agree with you about having the abortion take place early on. However, I haven't heard many cases where people were unable to find parents for a child... maybe if you want an open adoption and are very picky about the parents you want for "your" baby, that could be an issue. But I think there are a LOT of families out there who want to adopt, especially newborn babies. I don't think finding a family would be a problem. Then again, I haven't researched the issue so maybe that is a problem I've never heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuburbanSmoker Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 The only problem with that is alot of the time it can be more taxing on a mother not being able to keep her child rather then aborting it. I had a very close friend who opted to do this our first year of college and to this day (3 years later) she is still really really messed up because of it. the parents are under no obligation to let the birthmother have any contact with the child. And most people say that "o no it wont happen to me the X family are great people", unfortunantly thats not really the case. I personally would feel obligated to have some influence in my kids life if i got a girl pregnant and she put the child up for adoption, i think that would be more taxing and confusing to me then having the fetus aborted. Dont get me wrong adoption is great for people who are more inclined to life, and there are a ton of loving families out there that cannot have kids or dont want to go through the process, it really is just a matter of perspective and situational. note* all of this is based off my own experiences and personal views, in no way shape or form do i think im 100% right, its just what seems right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiveSpeedF150 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='brigita' date='30 March 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1270003626' post='460928'] I agree with you about having the abortion take place early on. However, I haven't heard many cases where people were unable to find parents for a child... maybe if you want an open adoption and are very picky about the parents you want for "your" baby, that could be an issue. But I think there are a LOT of families out there who want to adopt, especially newborn babies. I don't think finding a family would be a problem. Then again, I haven't researched the issue so maybe that is a problem I've never heard of. [/quote] Healthy newborns don't have much trouble. FAS, Crack Babies, and 11 year old felons do. I was watching comedy the other night at work and the comedian addressed the issue... to paraphrase he said something like pro-life men just haven't received a phone call from that stripper in reno yet. He has a point. I've never been in that situation, so I'll refrain from judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatonethere Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) Sometimes I sit on the fence with this as well. I think if the couple chooses to have an abortion, then so be it. In a lot of cases, the situation doesn't ervolve around a couple. It could involve a one night stand, 2 "buddies", rape, or a couple of kids messing around. If the other party isn't involved, then it is the womans choice to go through with it or choose another option. lets take the following options into account: Adoption: It is a good option, but lets face it. All of the families interested in adopting a child arent "as loving" as people like to think. There are some really fucked up people with fucked up agendas out there who will do what they have to do to get a kid. There are people out there who will adopt a child for the sole purpose of abusing them physically, sexually, and/or mentally. Some are just in it so they could have someone to claim on their tax return, or to receive welfare. With people like these, there is no guarantee that the child will get the love they need regardless of what home they go to. This sort of thing happens more than people could imagine, and, the social workers have no way of spotting or weeding out these kinds of people. How does the birth mother prevent something like this from happening (assuming she cares enough (depending on the circumstance surrounding the birth) to do so)? Abortion: I will forget about the obvious cases discussed already (rape, and danger to the mother's health) and discuss something no one has brought up yet. Lets say a couple gets together and has a baby. They visit the doctor to monitor the development of the fetus, and low and behold, the child has been diagnosed with a debilitating disease or disorder that won't allow them to grow, or develop properly. They have 2 choices : abort, or keep it. Now if they keep it, the child care expenses will definitely exceed that of a normal child. It will cost millions of dollars to keep that child alive. Assuming they have decent careers or jobs, and have the ability to afford a decent lifestyle, they decide to keep the child. What happens next???? Medical expenses swallow them up and make life extremely hard. The average person may not be able to afford to raise a child like this, let alone insure they have a semi decent existance. What if the child has to have a special diet and it costs an arm and a leg to feed the child? Their "decent lifestyle" turns into quite the chore. Should they have aborted the child in the first place? What if they gave birth to a child/children with deformities (siamese twins, fused together legs, or any other obvious issue)? People like to say that these births are "little miracles" or that children born with extreme mental disabilities are "special'. Sure, that child might have a really high IQ but what good does it do if the child will never be able to communicate or do simple tasks? This child will be cared for until their parents are no longer able to do so. Much worse is that the child gets put in a home designed to care for these special cases. Not all of the homes are staffed properly, and not all of the staff treat the people well or care for them properly. Is it really a good thing to raise siamese twins or the person with obvious developmental birth defects until they are adults so people can gawk at the "freak show"? Will some of these people go on to make babies (it happens sometimes)? What about the next generation? It's true that not all of these people will have children, but if we take the Pro Lifer's approach, every aborted child will have a life whether the parents wanted to or not. What happens in the cases mentioned above? Will we end up with a bunch of people who can do mathematical equations all day, but are unable to come to work because they are engrossed in the same math problem they've been working on for three days? Or a person who is so developmentally challanged that they can only make sounds? What about the child who was born to a parent who didn't want them in the first place? Is it right to force the parent to have the child, knowing that child will probably never get the love they should have been receiving since birth? Personally, I would rather have a child brought into a situation where they can be loved unconditionally than to have a child who was brought into this world and was constantly shat on for even existing in the first place. With that being said, I guess I am for abortion. However, I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control. But then again, if women are using abortion as a form of birth control, do we really want somebody like that to have a child in the first place? But then again, whatever she does is her business, and not mine. I also feel that it really isn't a man's place to tell a woman what she could do with her body. It's the same as a woman deciding to circumsise her baby boy without even considering what her husband/bf/baby daddy has to say. Does my stance make me a bad person??? Edited March 31, 2010 by thatonethere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antouwan Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 you choose [b]life[/b] or [b]death[/b] for another human being whose [u]very existence[/u] you and your actions are entirely responsible for. the above stated about 95% of what i want to say. the other 5%: i oppose intentional abortion in every possible way. that being said, if the mother's life is in danger and an operation must be performed in which the life of the child is at risk, even significant that is unfortunate, however killing the child is not the intended act therefore it is not an act of premeditated killing, otherwise known as murder. additionally beyond that, i would not really think too much less of a woman for procuring an abortion in a case of rape, incest, or incestuous rape; that being said, i would highly regard (except so much more, i mean words cannot do it justice) a woman who in the aforementioned circumstance decides to go through with the pregnancy to raise the child, realizing that the child should not have to pay the penalty for either the wrongdoing and/or irresponsibility of others. --- --- --- post script: as was stated above, there are so many means of birth control and prevention how can this still be an issue? if there was nothing inherently and objectively wrong about abortion people would not have a problem procuring them, so much attention would not be paid to birth control, and this discussion would not be so ridiculously inflammatory. the discussion is no longer about whether the 'fetus' is a person or not, it's about whether a mother should be able to end the life of her child or not - because it's her 'own body...' "when the fetus can live on its own..." point 1: so children/babies aren't really their own people then. can a baby or even a small child obtain its own food, shelter and other necessities of life in order to survive? if i "expose" my child the way that some of the ancients did in my back yard for weeks after it was born and it died, would i not then be committing murder for doing so? point 2: you and i, let's go down to the local hospital and pull the plugs on all the people who are comatose or on life support. they obviously cannot provide for themselves, so they [i]cannot be people[/i] paraenesis: just think about this whole thing for more than 30 seconds. and try and use reasoning that wasn't rammed down your throat by our shit-show of corporately controlled pop-media. @STUIE: Your daughter is ABSOLUTELY ADORABLE. A thousand Congratulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antouwan Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='thatonethere' date='31 March 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270025319' post='460964'] Sometimes I sit on the fence with this as well. I think if the couple chooses to have an abortion, then so be it. In a lot of cases, the situation doesn't evolve around a couple. It could involve a one night stand, 2 "buddies", rape, or a couple of kids messing around. If the other party isn't involved, then it is the womans choice to go through with it or choose another option. lets take the following options into account: Adoption: It is a good option, but lets face it. All of the families interested in adopting a child arent "as loving" as people like to think. There are some really fucked up people with fucked up agendas out there who will do what they have to do to get a kid. There are people out there who will adopt a child for the sole purpose of abusing them physically, sexually, and/or mentally. Some are just in it so they could have someone to claim on their tax return, or to receive welfare. With people like these, there is no guarantee that the child will get the love they need regardless of what home they go to. This sort of thing happens more than people could imagine, and, the social workers have no way of spotting or weeding out these kinds of people. How does the birth mother prevent something like this from happening (assuming she cares enough (depending on the circumstance surrounding the birth) to do so)? Abortion: I will forget about the obvious cases discussed already (rape, and danger to the mother's health) and discuss something no one has brought up yet. Lets say a couple gets together and has a baby. They visit the doctor to monitor the development of the fetus, and low and behold, the child has been diagnosed with a debilitating disease or disorder that won't allow them to grow, or develop properly. They have 2 choices : abort, or keep it. Now if they keep it, the child care expenses will definitely exceed that of a normal child. It will cost millions of dollars to keep that child alive. Assuming they have decent careers or jobs, and have the ability to afford a decent lifestyle, they decide to keep the child. What happens next???? Medical expenses swallow them up and [b]make life extremely hard.[/b] The average person may not be able to afford to raise a child like this, let alone insure they have a semi decent existance. What if the child has to have a special diet and it costs an arm and a leg to feed the child? Their "decent lifestyle" turns into quite the chore. Should they have aborted the child in the first place? [color="#ff0000"]damn, important choices and decisions, in life? what are they doing there? Why should life be hard. Let's make life as easy as it could possibly be, even if it's at the expense of others, or the expense of their life, at the expense of my child's life.[/color] [color="#ff0000"]I'm pretty sure that's the way pretty much every one thought behind a genocide, "damn, these whole group of people really is making my political campaign, realizable world view, political ends (ie life) hard....let's just kill them"[/color] What if they gave birth to a child/children with deformities (siamese twins, fused together legs, or any other obvious issue)? People like to say that these births are "little miracles" or that children born with extreme mental disabilities are "special'. Sure, that child might have a really high IQ but what good does it do if the child will never be able to communicate or do simple tasks? This child will be cared for until their parents are no longer able to do so. Much worse is that the child gets put in a home designed to care for these special cases. Not all of the homes are staffed properly, and not all of the staff treat the people well or care for them properly. Is it really a good thing to raise siamese twins or the person with obvious developmental birth defects until they are adults so people can gawk at the "freak show"? Will some of these people go on to make babies (it happens sometimes)? What about the next generation? [color="#ff0000"]I love your hypothetical rule where the exception, and indeed the combination of a ridiculous amount of exceptions becomes the rule. Just see above, you're basically repackaging the same argument. "Damn, all of these useless handicaps are running around screwing up shit for all of us obviously more efficient, useful, normal people. Why didn't we just kill them before their useless lives (lives which obviously are not even equal in worth and/or value to ours) even began?"[/color] It's true that not all of these people will have children, but if we take the Pro Lifer's approach, every aborted child will have a life whether the parents wanted to or not. What happens in the cases mentioned above? Will we end up with a bunch of people who can do mathematical equations all day, but are unable to come to work because they are engrossed in the same math problem they've been working on for three days? Or a person who is so developmentally challenged that they can only make sounds? What about the child who was born to a parent who didn't want them in the first place? Is it right to force the parent to have the child, knowing that child will probably never get the love they should have been receiving since birth? [b]Personally, I would rather have a child brought into a situation where they can be loved unconditionally than to have a child who was brought into this world and was constantly shat on for even existing in the first place.[/b] [color="#ff0000"]Notice a pattern here, [u][b]YOU'RE[/b][/u] the one doing all of the shitting on them.[/color] [color="#ff0000"]Why cannot you simply love the child for what they are – whatever that may be? Tall, short, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, black hair, blind, deaf, lame what fault of it is their own? Does someone having a disability mean that their life is worth less than a 'healthy' person's? Abortion, in its practice, tells the child that they MUST be perfect in order to be worthy of love. All of these "psycho pro-lifers" are willing to love the children because they are simply children. They are willing to accept and respect (albeit somewhat imperfectly - but you're not even considering it!) these people simply because they ARE PEOPLE. Equal in ability, probably not. But you, me, and everyone on this board are not equal in ability, does that make the ones who are not as equal less human? By the way you think, you should answer yes to that question. Does that trouble you? I think it should greatly trouble you.[/color] With that being said, I guess I am for abortion. However, I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control. But then again, if women are using abortion as a form of birth control, do we really want somebody like that to have a child in the first place? But then again, whatever she does is her business, and not mine. I also feel that it really isn't a man's place to tell a woman what she could do with her body. It's the same as a woman deciding to circumcise her baby boy without even considering what her husband/bf/baby daddy has to say. Does my stance make me a bad person??? [color="#ff0000"][u]Yes, absolutely.[/u] I hope that – as long as you think this way – you lump yourself into the category of the women who use abortion as birth control. i.e. regard yourself as someone whom we really don't want to have a child in the first place.[/color] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antouwan Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [b]mods, please delete the above post, the editor ran out of time on me. here's the real one:[/b] [quote name='thatonethere' date='31 March 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270025319' post='460964'] Sometimes I sit on the fence with this as well. I think if the couple chooses to have an abortion, then so be it. In a lot of cases, the situation doesn't evolve around a couple. It could involve a one night stand, 2 "buddies", rape, or a couple of kids messing around. If the other party isn't involved, then it is the womans choice to go through with it or choose another option. lets take the following options into account: Adoption: It is a good option, but lets face it. All of the families interested in adopting a child arent "as loving" as people like to think. There are some really fucked up people with fucked up agendas out there who will do what they have to do to get a kid. There are people out there who will adopt a child for the sole purpose of abusing them physically, sexually, and/or mentally. Some are just in it so they could have someone to claim on their tax return, or to receive welfare. With people like these, there is no guarantee that the child will get the love they need regardless of what home they go to. This sort of thing happens more than people could imagine, and, the social workers have no way of spotting or weeding out these kinds of people. How does the birth mother prevent something like this from happening (assuming she cares enough (depending on the circumstance surrounding the birth) to do so)? [color="#ff0000"]i take it you don't trust ANYONE, not even a spouse, not even a parent.[/color] [color="#ff0000"]i guess the birth mother just prevents this from happening by killing her child! I guess I could prevent everything potentially bad and painful from happening in my life by committing suicide! I sure hope I get in a fatal car wreck tomorrow and me, along with 8 other people die! Wouldn't it be great, then me or any of them would ever have to worry about pain, hurt, and anything else bad every happening to us again!...Even 'rough' lives have something to make those who live them enjoy them. I don't just go around killing drug addicts because i assume automatically that their lives are not worth living...[/color] Abortion: I will forget about the obvious cases discussed already (rape, and danger to the mother's health) and discuss something no one has brought up yet. Lets say a couple gets together and has a baby. They visit the doctor to monitor the development of the fetus, and low and behold, the child has been diagnosed with a debilitating disease or disorder that won't allow them to grow, or develop properly. They have 2 choices : abort, or keep it. Now if they keep it, the child care expenses will definitely exceed that of a normal child. It will cost millions of dollars to keep that child alive. Assuming they have decent careers or jobs, and have the ability to afford a decent lifestyle, they decide to keep the child. What happens next???? Medical expenses swallow them up and [b]make life extremely hard.[/b] The average person may not be able to afford to raise a child like this, let alone insure they have a semi decent existance. What if the child has to have a special diet and it costs an arm and a leg to feed the child? Their "decent lifestyle" turns into quite the chore. Should they have aborted the child in the first place? [color="#ff0000"]damn, important choices and decisions, in life? what are they doing there? Why should life be hard. Let's make life as easy as it could possibly be, even if it's at the expense of others, or the expense of their life, at the expense of my child's life.[/color] [color="#ff0000"]I'm pretty sure that's the way pretty much every one thought behind a genocide, "damn, these whole group of people really is making my political campaign, realizable world view, political ends (ie life) hard....let's just kill them"[/color] What if they gave birth to a child/children with deformities (siamese twins, fused together legs, or any other obvious issue)? People like to say that these births are "little miracles" or that children born with extreme mental disabilities are "special'. Sure, that child might have a really high IQ but what good does it do if the child will never be able to communicate or do simple tasks? This child will be cared for until their parents are no longer able to do so. Much worse is that the child gets put in a home designed to care for these special cases. Not all of the homes are staffed properly, and not all of the staff treat the people well or care for them properly. Is it really a good thing to raise siamese twins or the person with obvious developmental birth defects until they are adults so people can gawk at the "freak show"? Will some of these people go on to make babies (it happens sometimes)? What about the next generation? [color="#ff0000"]I love your hypothetical scenario where the exception, and indeed the combination of a ridiculous number of exceptions becomes the rule. Just see above, you're basically repackaging the same argument. "Damn, all of these useless handicaps are running around screwing up shit for all of us obviously more efficient, useful, normal people. Why didn't we just kill them before their useless lives (lives which obviously are not even equal in worth and/or value to ours) even began?"[/color] It's true that not all of these people will have children, but if we take the Pro Lifer's approach, every aborted child will have a life whether the parents wanted to or not. What happens in the cases mentioned above? Will we end up with a bunch of people who can do mathematical equations all day, but are unable to come to work because they are engrossed in the same math problem they've been working on for three days? Or a person who is so developmentally challenged that they can only make sounds? What about the child who was born to a parent who didn't want them in the first place? Is it right to force the parent to have the child, knowing that child will probably never get the love they should have been receiving since birth? [b]Personally, I would rather have a child brought into a situation where they can be loved unconditionally than to have a child who was brought into this world and was constantly shat on for even existing in the first place.[/b] [color="#ff0000"]Notice a pattern here, [u][b]YOU'RE[/b][/u] the one doing all of the shitting on them.[/color] [color="#ff0000"]Why cannot you simply love the child for what they are – whatever that may be? Tall, short, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, black hair, blind, deaf, lame what fault of it is their own? Does someone having a disability mean that their life is worth less than a 'healthy' person's? [b]Abortion, in its practice, tells the child that they MUST be perfect in order to be worthy of love.[/b] All of these "psycho pro-lifers" are willing to love the children because they are simply children. [b]They are willing to accept and respect (albeit somewhat imperfectly - but you're not even considering it!) these people simply because they ARE PEOPLE.[/b] Equal in ability? Probably not. But you, me, and everyone on this board are not equal in ability, does that make the ones who are less able less human? By the way you think, you should answer yes to that question. Does that trouble you? I think it should greatly trouble you.[/color] With that being said, I guess I am for abortion. However, I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control. But then again, if women are using abortion as a form of birth control, do we really want somebody like that to have a child in the first place? But then again, whatever she does is her business, and not mine. I also feel that it really isn't a man's place to tell a woman what she could do with her body. It's the same as a woman deciding to circumcise her baby boy without even considering what her husband/bf/baby daddy has to say. Does my stance make me a bad person??? [color="#ff0000"][u]Yes, absolutely.[/u] I hope that – as long as you think this way – you lump yourself into the category of the women who use abortion as birth control. i.e. regard yourself as someone whom we really don't want to have a child in the first place.[/color] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuie Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='thatonethere' date='31 March 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270025319' post='460964'] Sometimes I sit on the fence with this as well. I think if the couple chooses to have an abortion, then so be it. In a lot of cases, the situation doesn't ervolve around a couple. It could involve a one night stand, 2 "buddies", rape, or a couple of kids messing around. If the other party isn't involved, then it is the womans choice to go through with it or choose another option. lets take the following options into account: Adoption: It is a good option, but lets face it. All of the families interested in adopting a child arent "as loving" as people like to think. There are some really fucked up people with fucked up agendas out there who will do what they have to do to get a kid. There are people out there who will adopt a child for the sole purpose of abusing them physically, sexually, and/or mentally. Some are just in it so they could have someone to claim on their tax return, or to receive welfare. With people like these, there is no guarantee that the child will get the love they need regardless of what home they go to. This sort of thing happens more than people could imagine, and, the social workers have no way of spotting or weeding out these kinds of people. How does the birth mother prevent something like this from happening (assuming she cares enough (depending on the circumstance surrounding the birth) to do so)? [b]Abortion: I will forget about the obvious cases discussed already (rape, and danger to the mother's health) and discuss something no one has brought up yet. Lets say a couple gets together and has a baby. They visit the doctor to monitor the development of the fetus, and low and behold, the child has been diagnosed with a debilitating disease or disorder that won't allow them to grow, or develop properly. They have 2 choices : abort, or keep it. Now if they keep it, the child care expenses will definitely exceed that of a normal child. It will cost millions of dollars to keep that child alive. Assuming they have decent careers or jobs, and have the ability to afford a decent lifestyle, they decide to keep the child. What happens next???? Medical expenses swallow them up and make life extremely hard. The average person may not be able to afford to raise a child like this, let alone insure they have a semi decent existance. What if the child has to have a special diet and it costs an arm and a leg to feed the child? Their "decent lifestyle" turns into quite the chore. Should they have aborted the child in the first place? [/b]What if they gave birth to a child/children with deformities (siamese twins, fused together legs, or any other obvious issue)? People like to say that these births are "little miracles" or that children born with extreme mental disabilities are "special'. Sure, that child might have a really high IQ but what good does it do if the child will never be able to communicate or do simple tasks? This child will be cared for until their parents are no longer able to do so. Much worse is that the child gets put in a home designed to care for these special cases. Not all of the homes are staffed properly, and not all of the staff treat the people well or care for them properly. Is it really a good thing to raise siamese twins or the person with obvious developmental birth defects until they are adults so people can gawk at the "freak show"? Will some of these people go on to make babies (it happens sometimes)? What about the next generation? It's true that not all of these people will have children, but if we take the Pro Lifer's approach, every aborted child will have a life whether the parents wanted to or not. What happens in the cases mentioned above? Will we end up with a bunch of people who can do mathematical equations all day, but are unable to come to work because they are engrossed in the same math problem they've been working on for three days? Or a person who is so developmentally challanged that they can only make sounds? What about the child who was born to a parent who didn't want them in the first place? Is it right to force the parent to have the child, knowing that child will probably never get the love they should have been receiving since birth? Personally, I would rather have a child brought into a situation where they can be loved unconditionally than to have a child who was brought into this world and was constantly shat on for even existing in the first place. With that being said, I guess I am for abortion. However, I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control. But then again, if women are using abortion as a form of birth control, do we really want somebody like that to have a child in the first place? But then again, whatever she does is her business, and not mine. I also feel that it really isn't a man's place to tell a woman what she could do with her body. It's the same as a woman deciding to circumsise her baby boy without even considering what her husband/bf/baby daddy has to say. Does my stance make me a bad person??? [/quote] Close family friends gave birth to a little boy in October at 20 weeks old. Doctors didn't give the odds of him surviving above 20% because of medical and developmental issues. He passed away 2 weeks ago. Although the family was devastated, I have talked to the family and she doesn't regret her choice to have him. The costs were huge. Plus he had to stay in the hospital in Fort Worth at Cooks Children Hospital and would drive down to seem as much as she could 2 hour drive, because she has 2 little girls at home. So imagine the stress and the pain. She and her husband still think they made the right choice. To paraphrase what they said "Our ability to love Evan for the time we had him, ranks up there with any single most personal accomplishment any person has achieved." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuie Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 [quote name='thatonethere' date='31 March 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270025319' post='460964'] Abortion: I will forget about the obvious cases discussed already (rape, and danger to the mother's health) and discuss something no one has brought up yet. Lets say a couple gets together and has a baby. They visit the doctor to monitor the development of the fetus, and low and behold, the child has been diagnosed with a debilitating disease or disorder that won't allow them to grow, or develop properly. They have 2 choices : abort, or keep it. Now if they keep it, the child care expenses will definitely exceed that of a normal child. It will cost millions of dollars to keep that child alive. Assuming they have decent careers or jobs, and have the ability to afford a decent lifestyle, they decide to keep the child. What happens next???? Medical expenses swallow them up and make life extremely hard. The average person may not be able to afford to raise a child like this, let alone insure they have a semi decent existance. What if the child has to have a special diet and it costs an arm and a leg to feed the child? Their "decent lifestyle" turns into quite the chore. Should they have aborted the child in the first place? [b]What if they gave birth to a child/children with deformities (siamese twins, fused together legs, or any other obvious issue)? People like to say that these births are "little miracles" or that children born with extreme mental disabilities are "special'. Sure, that child might have a really high IQ but what good does it do if the child will never be able to communicate or do simple tasks? This child will be cared for until their parents are no longer able to do so. Much worse is that the child gets put in a home designed to care for these special cases. Not all of the homes are staffed properly, and not all of the staff treat the people well or care for them properly. Is it really a good thing to raise siamese twins or the person with obvious developmental birth defects until they are adults so people can gawk at the "freak show"? Will some of these people go on to make babies (it happens sometimes)? What about the next generation?[/b] [/quote] My wife was born with a rare condition called Coloboma. Now it doesn't effect her iris as some times it does but with correction her vision is 20/200 (legally blind). Should my wife have been aborted because she will never see properly and eventually will become completely blind and probably end up with glaucoma all before 40? Although her condition is rare enough that haven't ruled out it can be passed genetically, we decided a long time ago we are having our own child genetics be damned, at the urge of both our parents we refused to get genetically tested and screened. Nothing are child could be, be born with would ever change our love for them. That argument infuriates me some times when people bring it up because...it's about genetic cleansing to them if you sum it up to one logical point. Many people have autistic children and children with disabilities...MONEY DOES NOT FACTOR INTO LOVE! Watch these Video [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flRvsO8m_KI"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=flRvsO8m_KI[/url] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAPz3ZB7kzw"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eAPz3ZB7kzw[/url] That is true love a Father for his son...if you aren't crying by the end of it of these... you might want look around for your soul. So who should be denied the right to procreate, the disabled... the poor... lower IQs....a particular ethnic group.... sounds like similar to a former radical German group to me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSU Smoker Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Stuie' date='31 March 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1270048860' post='460996'] [quote name='thatonethere' date='31 March 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270025319' post='460964'] Abortion: I will forget about the obvious cases discussed already (rape, and danger to the mother's health) and discuss something no one has brought up yet. Lets say a couple gets together and has a baby. They visit the doctor to monitor the development of the fetus, and low and behold, the child has been diagnosed with a debilitating disease or disorder that won't allow them to grow, or develop properly. They have 2 choices : abort, or keep it. Now if they keep it, the child care expenses will definitely exceed that of a normal child. It will cost millions of dollars to keep that child alive. Assuming they have decent careers or jobs, and have the ability to afford a decent lifestyle, they decide to keep the child. What happens next???? Medical expenses swallow them up and make life extremely hard. The average person may not be able to afford to raise a child like this, let alone insure they have a semi decent existance. What if the child has to have a special diet and it costs an arm and a leg to feed the child? Their "decent lifestyle" turns into quite the chore. Should they have aborted the child in the first place? [b]What if they gave birth to a child/children with deformities (siamese twins, fused together legs, or any other obvious issue)? People like to say that these births are "little miracles" or that children born with extreme mental disabilities are "special'. Sure, that child might have a really high IQ but what good does it do if the child will never be able to communicate or do simple tasks? This child will be cared for until their parents are no longer able to do so. Much worse is that the child gets put in a home designed to care for these special cases. Not all of the homes are staffed properly, and not all of the staff treat the people well or care for them properly. Is it really a good thing to raise siamese twins or the person with obvious developmental birth defects until they are adults so people can gawk at the "freak show"? Will some of these people go on to make babies (it happens sometimes)? What about the next generation?[/b] [/quote] My wife was born with a rare condition called Coloboma. Now it doesn't effect her iris as some times it does but with correction her vision is 20/200 (legally blind). Should my wife have been aborted because she will never see properly and eventually will become completely blind and probably end up with glaucoma all before 40? Although her condition is rare enough that haven't ruled out it can be passed genetically, we decided a long time ago we are having our own child genetics be damned, at the urge of both our parents we refused to get genetically tested and screened. Nothing are child could be, be born with would ever change our love for them. That argument infuriates me some times when people bring it up because...it's about genetic cleansing to them if you sum it up to one logical point. Many people have autistic children and children with disabilities...MONEY DOES NOT FACTOR INTO LOVE! Watch these Video [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flRvsO8m_KI"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=flRvsO8m_KI[/url] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAPz3ZB7kzw"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eAPz3ZB7kzw[/url] That is true love a Father for his son...if you aren't crying by the end of it of these... you might want look around for your soul. So who should be denied the right to procreate, the disabled... the poor... lower IQs....a particular ethnic group.... sounds like similar to a former radical German group to me.... [/quote] damn those videos are hella inspiring, had me teared up. I mean that [b][i]is[/i] true love and dedication to his son.[/b] [b] [/b] I feel as if the disability argument is no different than saying if a child, or anyone for that matter, is diagnosed with cancer and has a low survival rate that they should just be left to die and not get to experience anymore life. Just the act of showing them that you DO care means the world to them. I dont know if any of you have heard about Penn State Dance Marathon (THON) but its a student run philanthropy that raises millions each year for the fight against childhood cancer. Every year that I have been I've cried multiple times just hearing the horrific stories of these children. But then you get to see how happy they are during the 46hours when they get to play day and night, slide on mats, dance on stage infront of thousands of people. They truly get to act is if they are normal. Some of them survive and some of them die, But until then dont they deserve the right to live and at least give life a shot of all they have?? Some may see things differently than myself but I feel that a person is truly measured by their thoughts and by the size of their heart. I have worked with many people with disabilities and low IQs in my life and its always a rewarding experience to see the joy they get out of being normal, and not being ostracized for being different. My main example of this was a boy, Cody, who I worked with in high school who was born legal blind. Although he can see colors and shapes life is still a struggle for him. I worked with Cody in marching band, we were both in the pit together (percussion and bells in the front of the field). Every week we read him his music aloud as he typed it in brail, I set up all his equipment every show, and helped him when he couldn't find an instrument. Sure it was frustrating at times, but the end [i]he[/i] [i]loved playing music for people[/i]. Currently he is a radio DJ for a local station and gets to share his passion of music almost everyday with people. He often hangs out at bonfires over the summer and is one of the nicer people in this world I know. Should Cody have been aborted since he was to be born blind? Edited March 31, 2010 by PSU Smoker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSU Smoker Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Another inspiration link: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qTiYA1WiY8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qTiYA1WiY8[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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