Immigration Law

[TheScotsman]

I am a bit amazed no one has brought it up, but while I wait for my coals to light, why not dive, headlong, into the flames of Az's new law.

I have lived in the Southwest, and realize why the citizens of AZ support their new illegal alien law nearly 3:1. I can see why they decided to take action on their own, after the feds sat on their hands. After all, obummer will talk about how the feds have to take over everything from healthcare, banks, wall street, and car companies, to student loans, yet somehow seems unable to do the first thing the federal gov't is required to do, protect the borders (bush-league 1, and 2... and our "philanderer-in-chief" did no better.)

One can only support the citizens of AZ in a quest to get their state out of the mess created by illegal aliens flooding it... but that said, I don't think I want a jackass like joe arpaio having the right to add yet another level of harassment to the average citizen's life. You know any time you give the cops another power, it WILL be abused at every possible convenience. (or at least that seems to be the nature of the beast).

I am a bit torn between the needs of the state, and protecting the citizens from the illegals on one hand, and the obvious violations of citizen's rights against illegal searches. As far as I am concerned, the illegals aren't citizens, and as such, are not protected against illegal searches by the Constitution... but that is another topic all together. In the end, if the federal government had fulfilled it's obligations, there wouldn't be a problem. To that ends, it seems logical to assume the feds, by their inept handling of their duty, have lost any ethical ability to criticize the actions of the state of AZ.


Now that my coals are nice and grey, I am going to enjoy my Tangiers Lime.... and the illegals will have to wait

[judgeposer]

[quote name='TheScotsman' date='02 May 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1272854524' post='466436']
I am a bit amazed no one has brought it up, but while I wait for my coals to light, why not dive, headlong, into the flames of Az's new law.

I have lived in the Southwest, and realize why the citizens of AZ support their new illegal alien law nearly 3:1. I can see why they decided to take action on their own, after the feds sat on their hands. After all, obummer will talk about how the feds have to take over everything from healthcare, banks, wall street, and car companies, to student loans, yet somehow seems unable to do the first thing the federal gov't is required to do, protect the borders (bush-league 1, and 2... and our "philanderer-in-chief" did no better.)

One can only support the citizens of AZ in a quest to get their state out of the mess created by illegal aliens flooding it... but that said, I don't think I want a jackass like joe arpaio having the right to add yet another level of harassment to the average citizen's life. You know any time you give the cops another power, it WILL be abused at every possible convenience. (or at least that seems to be the nature of the beast).

I am a bit torn between the needs of the state, and protecting the citizens from the illegals on one hand, and the obvious violations of citizen's rights against illegal searches. As far as I am concerned, the illegals aren't citizens, and as such, are not protected against illegal searches by the Constitution... but that is another topic all together. In the end, if the federal government had fulfilled it's obligations, there wouldn't be a problem. To that ends, it seems logical to assume the feds, by their inept handling of their duty, have lost any ethical ability to criticize the actions of the state of AZ.


Now that my coals are nice and grey, I am going to enjoy my Tangiers Lime.... and the illegals will have to wait
[/quote]

Lime - yum!

Everyone on US soil, regardless of their immigration status, enjoys the protections of the US Constitution (and quite probably the Constitution of the state in which they reside/operate, etc.). I know you said this is a matter for another debate (i.e. thread), and also that your assessment was "as far as [you were] concerned," but I thought I'd clarify that one point.

I'm interested in following this thread...let's see what comes.

[Click]

I am all for defending our borders and keeping out non-citizens that don't have the proper paper work to visit/reside in the United States.  I just don't like that the bill is going to cause a massive profiling assault by law enforcement.  The profiling is going target specifically Hispanic looking people as they are the most likely immigrant to be found.  Because he/she looks like an immigrant they can be pulled over and asked for identification.  

[Rani]

It's a complex subject. The law will definitely result in racial profiling - there's no way it can't. I don't think it's going to work worth a damn and honestly I think Arizona should have gone another way - like brought suit against the federal government for not protecting their state. When the fed takes over something - they get it all including pay back when it doesn't work.

Our immigration policy needs to be totally rewritten. I'm not completely against amnesty for those already here under certain conditions the big one being that it absolutely must coincide with major revamping of the entire policy. I'd start with a "if we catch them you, you have to jail them once we send them back" or even better a national fine of substantial proportions for each returned - a bounty so to speak. Once governments come to realize it's cheaper to keep them home, maybe they'll start doing just that by policing at their end. Secondly, anchor baby policy should be completely revoked. No, you don't automatically get citizen ship just because you happened to be here when your illegal (or visiting) parents happened to be here when your mother went into labor. Nor should marriage to a citizen give any additional weight to application for legal immigration. We're, I believe, the only nation that actually allows this and obviously it's a mistake so it needs to be revoked. There are other hitches in the law that just aren't working and the whole thing needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Considering though, that border states have been begging the fed to get off their asses and actually do something, it very well could be that Arizona knows the law will be stricken down and be intentionally using it to get the fed in motion. If it works, more power to them.

'Rani

[Charley]

[quote name='Rani' date='03 May 2010 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1272862914' post='466453']
Nor should marriage to a citizen give any additional weight to application for legal immigration.

'Rani
[/quote]


Rani do have to admit I am a little surprised to hear this part from you. people who are in love and married should be allowed to be together and the only way that can really happen is with citizenship. However I would support what I call a provisional citizenship In which a foreign person is granted limited citizenship so as long as they do not enter divorce for a period of no less then 10 years upon what time it will convert to full.

(with exceptions for death of a spouse in a marriage that has produced one or more living children.)

now a small rant..
America was built on the backs of foreigners who came here to seek a better life. almost all of us here are descended from them. when people talk with hate and fear they need to remember there not just insulting the living who are seeking a better life but in most cases they are insulting there own ancestors. (and yes I know we are talking about illegals but how many of you can say you know for sure your lineage got here legally?)


and finally back the post at hand.
However i do agree that we need better policies. But invading privacy should not be one of them.
I am afraid though that without imprisoning people for coming into the country illegally there is no real way to stop it. just deport them they will be back 3 days later. however I can not in good faith support imprisoning people for trying to get a better life by trying to become a productive member of society. (and that is what most of these people are trying to do. they want a job that pays a living wadge. and they want to provide for there families.)

[dizzbizz]

As being in AZ, Tucson more specifically, I see a lot of Mexicans. I have no problem or hatred towards the people south of our borders. But I don't like how they force themselves into our country, bask in the spoils of America and don't pay taxes or spend money here to help our economy. They come here to support their family, which is a noble act, but they send the money they earn back to mexico to their family or sell drugs or whatever else they want. They need to leave until they are legally allowed to live here. That being said this law isn't the way to go. About 90% of America's illegal immigrants pass through here and AZ needs to step up and do something about it. I think it makes sense that the state which acts as a corridor for illegal immigrants to have a law no other state has but we need to focus on the border specifically rather than some stupid racial profiling law, we're better than this and I don't want to live in a police state like we're in the damn Nazi Germany. But I think this passed so quickly because a rancher in Cochise county was murdered by a group of illegal immigrants who were passing through his ranch. He was out on his property riding a quad and must have scared them so they panicked. But this is a type of incident that could be avoided if our borders were more effective ad efficient. Obama needs to do his job and protect our country, because obviously this is a problem and AZ is going through budget cuts like everyone else and the Border Patrol is no doubt feeling these cuts too.

[thatonethere]

I agree with dizzbizz, but I do have to say this:

Somebody please tell these people to stop parading around and comparing this thing to that of the Civil Rights Movement. Those who marched during the Civil Rights Era did it because they were fighting for BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Since when was it a basic human right to go into another country?? Protesting with signs that say "End Juan Crow" or anything pertaining to the Civil Rights movement does nothing but cheapen the effort of those who really were willing to go to jail and fight to be equal in this country.

Besides,a lot of these guys treat American citizens like crap, beg for a job from the White guys, talk down to Blacks and expect everybody to be nice to them. When somebody calls them out on their behavior, all of a sudden, they don't know English, claim everybody is picking on them,and call the person they've attacked "racist". I've had it happen, I've been over charged by them at a swap meet,intentionally served cold food in one of thier restaurants, been intimidated and harassed for standing up for myself in a former place of employment.

Sometimes, I feel like the Us immigration policies have been made into a mockery. I don't think there are any other countries who will allow anybody and everybody to stay there illegally for extended periods of time.

Their motives sound fishy to me, but they have yummy food, good beer, and they know how to party.

On marrying American citizens:

I believe that love is unconditional and knows no boundaries, but a lot of illegals do it simply to gain citizenship. They'll marry a US citizen and stay that way on paper for about 3 years. Then, they'll divorce their American spouse and obtain a US marriage certificate for the person they were already married to in their homeland. Then. they'll bring their extended family to the states. It can be used as a business proposition and nothing more.

I do believe that this law will turn into racial profiling, which is extremely unfortunate. I wish Arizona would have come up with something better than that. I like the idea of suing the feds for not taking care of our borders, but what will come of it.

On the other hand, it's gained the attention of the Mexican President (which could be a really good thing). Maybe he'll stop letting everybody come over here, and fix his own country instead of being careless enough to let his people come to the states to make easy money and bring it back to Mexico. Could the chickens that the Mexican government has released be comming home to roost? I wonder what will happen with this. Edited May 3, 2010 by thatonethere

[Rani]

[quote name='thatonethere' date='03 May 2010 - 03:46 AM' timestamp='1272883565' post='466475']
I agree with dizzbizz, but I do have to say this:

Somebody please tell these people to stop parading around and comparing this thing to that of the Civil Rights Movement. Those who marched during the Civil Rights Era did it because they were fighting for BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Since when was it a basic human right to go into another country?? Protesting with signs that say "End Juan Crow" or anything pertaining to the Civil Rights movement does nothing but cheapen the effort of those who really were willing to go to jail and fight to be equal in this country.

Besides,a lot of these guys treat American citizens like crap, beg for a job from the White guys, talk down to Blacks and expect everybody to be nice to them. When somebody calls them out on their behavior, all of a sudden, they don't know English, claim everybody is picking on them,and call the person they've attacked "racist". I've had it happen, I've been over charged by them at a swap meet,intentionally served cold food in one of thier restaurants, been intimidated and harassed for standing up for myself in a former place of employment.

Sometimes, I feel like the Us immigration policies have been made into a mockery. I don't think there are any other countries who will allow anybody and everybody to stay there illegally for extended periods of time.

Their motives sound fishy to me, but they have yummy food, good beer, and they know how to party.

On marrying American citizens:

[b]I believe that love is unconditional and knows no boundaries, but a lot of illegals do it simply to gain citizenship. They'll marry a US citizen and stay that way on paper for about 3 years. Then, they'll divorce their American spouse and obtain a US marriage certificate for the person they were already married to in their homeland. Then. they'll bring their extended family to the states. It can be used as a business proposition and nothing more. [/b]

I do believe that this law will turn into racial profiling, which is extremely unfortunate. I wish Arizona would have come up with something better than that. I like the idea of suing the feds for not taking care of our borders, but what will come of it.

On the other hand, it's gained the attention of the Mexican President (which could be a really good thing). Maybe he'll stop letting everybody come over here, and fix his own country instead of being careless enough to let his people come to the states to make easy money and bring it back to Mexico. Could the chickens that the Mexican government has released be comming home to roost? I wonder what will happen with this.
[/quote]

You said it before I attempted to start typing. I've been offered marriage twice in the last 5 years for money if I were willing to help someone come to the US. While I agree real love does happen between differing nationals, it's unfortunately not the norm. More often it's the business proposition. And I stand by my belief that therefore, marriage should not be reason by itself for giving extra weight to immigration status. Sorry, love among a few is not allowed to become an abuse for the many.

'Rani

[delSol_si]

[quote name='TheScotsman' date='02 May 2010 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1272854524' post='466436']
After all, obummer will talk about how the feds have to take over everything from healthcare, banks, wall street, and car companies, to student loans, yet somehow seems unable to do the first thing the federal gov't is required to do, protect the borders (bush-league 1, and 2... and our "philanderer-in-chief" did no better.)

I am a bit torn between the needs of the state, and protecting the citizens from the illegals on one hand, and the obvious violations of citizen's rights against illegal searches. As far as I am concerned, the illegals aren't citizens, and as such, are not protected against illegal searches by the Constitution... but that is another topic all together. In the end, if the federal government had fulfilled it's obligations, there wouldn't be a problem. To that ends, it seems logical to assume the feds, by their inept handling of their duty, have lost any ethical ability to criticize the actions of the state of AZ.


Now that my coals are nice and grey, I am going to enjoy my Tangiers Lime.... and the illegals will have to wait
[/quote]

i know this is not the point of this thread, but i want to speak on a few things anyway. I think it is totally legit in some circumstances for the government to take over the car industry. When they bailed out GM, they have EVERY right to tell GM exactly what to do. When you pay for something, you own it. It's bullshit to sit here and say "okay, i want you to help me financially , but you are not allowed to have any input on what i do." Second, the government's concern is SUPPOSED to be keeping us safe and protecting us. When the car companies fuck us over by taking bribes from oil companies and in return making only cars that use a lot of gasoline, that bullshit, the government needs to step in. I am all for the government getting the fuck out of my life, but I do expect them to protect me, that is waht i am paying them for.

I also love how you said "obummer" that cracks me up.

As far as immigration, i think we need to stop letting foreigners in (except for vacationing purposes and the such) until we get our unemployment rate lower. we have way too many unemployed americans right now to be letting more and more foreigners taking all of our jobs. My gf works at a cleaners...there are 3, maybe 4 americans, the rest are all mexicans. And yes, mexicans are people too, many of them extremely nice people, i actually went to a "sweet 15" birthday party with my gf for one of her co-worker's daughters who is mexican (their sweet 15 is much like our sweet 16, except even more hyped up). they were incredibly hospitable, incredibly nice, probably some of the nicest people i have met in a long time...but i still think we need to be looking out for number 1. Do i think we need to immediately get rid of all foreign people? no, i jsut feel we need to put a stop to it for the time being....kinda like with the importing of goods, sometimes you have to put a stop to it if the economy is hurting too bad.

Are there a lot of gray areas to my opinions? yes. are there flaws? yes...but thats why i am not in politics

[Venger]

I find it kinda funny how the Latino community is taking this so personally. Its an illegal alien law. There are a lot of Asians,Africans and Middle Eastern people here on expired work and student visas. This law would apply to them too. I don't see a bunch of Hindi kids marching on Washington saying they are going to be profiled. That being said If the last guy to fly a plane into a skyscraper in NYC was Afganie why would I profile little old ladies and young Chinese men? There is a reason we profile. Its not raciest to notice the differences in people. If you are mugged by a burly white guy are you going to look for skinny black guys. No.
Ray

[Chreees]

I don't know what I think we should do about the illegal immigrants coming in/already here from south of the border, but I do know one thing... If they can, then so can terrorists. No, not only the terrorists we're fighting right now that are in the Middle East, but all terrorists... It's so easy apparently for anyone to just come into our country. You think we're safe? Hell no. It's a matter of national security. Why is nothing being done about it? Because the government WANTS illegals to come in and work for dirt cheap. Makes the costs of businesses here cheaper, therefore they get to keep more money in their pockets. America is full of greed now, and the common man is being hit with all of the consequences from it. How do we stop it? Actually punish those businesses which employ illegal immigrants. And step up the border patrol. If you take away the ability for them to find work here, then they'll stop coming. Hell, it might even help us to try to help Mexico get on their own feet, so they won't feel the need to come here. That'd be way more beneficial than us being way over in the Middle East just because we want all the damn oil. Our government is greedy, and neglecting its own people for the sake of making the most bank it possibly can. If we can eliminate the greed, then we can start making some changes for the better.

Just to note... I went trucking with my dad when I was 14 back in 2004 and we were down in the southwest... The border patrol agents could not be any more obvious of where they're sitting. They sit there in their vehicles with all their lights on... Illegal: "Hey man, I see lights over there, let's go this way..." DUH. My dad and I saw SO many Mexicans along the road and running across the road. It was insane.

[thatonethere]

One day, I was out walking my dog, and I saw ICE officials patrolling the neighborhood looking for illegals. I thought the whole thing was erie to say the least. I also noticed a Mexican guy riding his bike to get home. The ICE officials stopped somebody in front of his house. He continued riding his bike up the street and he waited several houses down the road until they left. When they left, he did a U-turn back to his house. I didn't know what to do or how to react to the situation. Part of was waiting for somebody to point out the guy on the bike. I know one thing, I wasn't going to do it because I live in that neighborhood and something bad could happen to me. I stand out quite a bit, and I know a lot of people so I figured I'd mind my business.

I began to look at it like this: The way ICE went about their patrol scard me quite a bit. If they can round up people they might think who are illegal, imagine what could be done to American citizens whenever a law comes into play.

[Rani]

[quote name='thatonethere' date='03 May 2010 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1272930014' post='466519']
One day, I was out walking my dog, and I saw ICE officials patrolling the neighborhood looking for illegals. I thought the whole thing was erie to say the least. I also noticed a Mexican guy riding his bike to get home. The ICE officials stopped somebody in front of his house. He continued riding his bike up the street and he waited several houses down the road until they left. When they left, he did a U-turn back to his house. I didn't know what to do or how to react to the situation. Part of was waiting for somebody to point out the guy on the bike. I know one thing, I wasn't going to do it because I live in that neighborhood and something bad could happen to me. I stand out quite a bit, and I know a lot of people so I figured I'd mind my business.

I began to look at it like this: The way ICE went about their patrol scard me quite a bit. If they can round up people they might think who are illegal, imagine what could be done to American citizens whenever a law comes into play.
[/quote]

What disturbs me is that almost no one can absolutely prove that they're a legal citizen on the spot. Passport? Never, ever been a fake one of those right? Drivers license? Every illegal I've ever come across had one. My NA Registration number? Oh, yeah with my hair dyed blond they're really going to buy I'm Cherokee without looking a whole lot closer. And where do you think I'd be sitting while they tried to figure it out? In INS holding somewhere. Any law supposed to protect us can also be used against us. Let's just say I run into and get on the bad side of the INS officer I dated about 7 years ago. It would take weeks for me to prove my identity through certified birth records. Yeah, I look like your average white girl but will I be traveling through Arizona any time in the future? Not on a bet. Reason for paranoia? In this country? Nawwwwww.......

'Rani

[thatonethere]

Exactly! Things are looking more and more like a sci fi anti government movie.


They say this law is going to take care of people who look illegal. How the hell does somebody look illegal in the first place??? They say it'll apply to all of the people from other countries, but then again EVERYBODY in the states looks like they are from another country. I guess they'll profile everybody but the Native Americans. But then again, some of them have really dark skin and look like Mexicans.

Hmmmm. This is getting really crazy indeed.

What documents are required to prove citizenship? Edited May 4, 2010 by thatonethere

[Venger]

there is a huge difference between a car with a man,a woman,and 2 kids and a SUV packed with 10 people who don't speak English.
I don't see this as a huge deal. Its like a gun law.Gun laws only come into play once the gun is used. No one knows your carrying an illegal gun so at that point the law is pointless. Once you commit a crime with an illegal gun then they can issue harsher punishment. So they aren't going to go around harassing people, more likely when they stop a car full of illegals on their way to a construction site they can arrest them and deal out a harsher punishment.
Ray

[mushrat]

Damn, finally drawn into one of these threads.

While this is clearly an attempt to get the Feds to get off their asses and do something, I personally see nothing wrong with treating Illegal Aliens of ANY nationality as the criminals they are.

I saw a political cartoon of a Mexican, easiest target I'm afraid, holding up a sign saying "boycott Arizona" and someone walking by thinking "it's working."

My great grandparents came here from Russia in 1918, not because the jobs were better or they could get free schooling or health care, but because of the Pogroms. They came through Ellis Island as steerage braving sickness, the dangers of the trip itself, and the possibility of being turned back once they got here for a variety of reasons including quotas, to become Americans. They did everything legally. There are ways to become American citizens, jumping the boarder, and saying "we're here so we deserve everything" isn't the way.

I OBJECT to paying for health care for Illegals who can wander into a hospital for a stubbed toe, give a false name, and disappear. (and I have gotten bills sent to my address for services rendered to these people), I object that our school system, which is already strained by incompetent state management is strained further by not only having kids who aren't citizens in the classrooms, but the parents and activist groups demanding that they be taught English or worse yet, be taught in Spanish, and I object to the fact the law enforcement in this state AVOID pulling Mexicans as they know it will be a waste of time because they NEVER have licenses (they cant get them being illegals) or insurance, nor will they EVER show up in court. This i have straight from friend IN law enforcement.

And folks, we are already profiling in this country so get yer heads out o' yer asses, I don't know how many black members we have, but they can surly tell you about the common reason for being stopped in their cars for DWB. I used to have long hair and drive a beat up car, I got stopped and hassled FAR more often than the business man going 20 mph over in a BMW. Hell, being a young college student makes you more of a target for the police than your parents for instance, It's a fact of life here and anywhere and having been a victim of it myself allows me to say this.

So listen up kiddies, when those of you in college start working or owning business and your taxes keep going up and your children's classrooms are overcrowded or you get into an accident with an illegal alien with no insurance or even a license, your views on all of this will change. If the federal government isn't going to do something about it, then the states are going to have to. And while the proposed actions aren't the best, it beats doing nothing.

There, I said it, I feel better.

[Rani]

[quote name='thatonethere' date='04 May 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1272957477' post='466562']
Exactly! Things are looking more and more like a sci fi anti government movie.


They say this law is going to take care of people who look illegal. How the hell does somebody look illegal in the first place??? They say it'll apply to all of the people from other countries, but then again EVERYBODY in the states looks like they are from another country. I guess they'll profile everybody but the Native Americans. But then again, some of them have really dark skin and look like Mexicans.

Hmmmm. This is getting really crazy indeed.

What documents are required to prove citizenship?
[/quote]

A passport is the best way to prove citizenship, but you're not supposed to routinely carry it with you because if you lose it you incur the greatest risk of identity theft. And come one, criminals have been coming in and out of this country on fake passports for decades and we all know it. My issue remains that it's almost impossible to prove anyone is a citizen beyond enough doubt to be let go. It opens too much of a doorway to abuse because if you're doubted for any reason, you will be sitting in holding somewhere while your life derails during the weeks or months it takes to prove your identity. Hell, it'd be easier to be a convicted felon so all they have to do is run your prints! At least you'd get home faster.

That being said, i absolutely agree with Mush. The system as it exists sucks and needs to be changed. Big time. But it needs to not open the door to potential abuse. Remember the Patriot Act? If you're arrested for any reason, if they add the word terrorism anywhere on the charges including verbal threat, the Patriot Act can be used against you and all your rights go out the window for years or as long as they choose to mess with you and hold you, without legal assistance I might add. There is nothing preventing this law from being used the same way. And that is what really bothers me. Does that mean in the average real world situation it's likely to be used? Of course not, but the fact that it can should give us pause. A great big long thoughtful pause.

'Rani

[thatonethere]

[quote name='mushrat' date='04 May 2010 - 07:17 AM' timestamp='1272982622' post='466583']
Damn, finally drawn into one of these threads.

While this is clearly an attempt to get the Feds to get off their asses and do something, I personally see nothing wrong with treating Illegal Aliens of ANY nationality as the criminals they are.

I saw a political cartoon of a Mexican, easiest target I'm afraid, holding up a sign saying "boycott Arizona" and someone walking by thinking "it's working."

My great grandparents came here from Russia in 1918, not because the jobs were better or they could get free schooling or health care, but because of the Pogroms. They came through Ellis Island as steerage braving sickness, the dangers of the trip itself, and the possibility of being turned back once they got here for a variety of reasons including quotas, to become Americans. [b]They did everything legally. There are ways to become American citizens, jumping the boarder, and saying "we're here so we deserve everything" isn't the way.[/b] [i]Exactly!!!![/i]

I OBJECT to paying for health care for Illegals who can wander into a hospital for a stubbed toe, give a false name, and disappear. (and I have gotten bills sent to my address for services rendered to these people), I object that our school system, which is already strained by incompetent state management is strained further by not only having kids who aren't citizens in the classrooms, but the parents and activist groups demanding that they be taught English or worse yet, be taught in Spanish, and I object to the fact the law enforcement in this state AVOID pulling Mexicans as they know it will be a waste of time because they NEVER have licenses (they cant get them being illegals) or insurance, nor will they EVER show up in court. This i have straight from friend IN law enforcement.

[b]And folks, we are already profiling in this country so get yer heads out o' yer asses, I don't know how many black members we have, but they can surly tell you about the common reason for being stopped in their cars for DWB. I used to have long hair and drive a beat up car, I got stopped and hassled FAR more often than the business man going 20 mph over in a BMW. Hell, being a young college student makes you more of a target for the police than your parents for instance, It's a fact of life here and anywhere and having been a victim of it myself allows me to say this. [/b]

So listen up kiddies, when those of you in college start working or owning business and your taxes keep going up and your children's classrooms are overcrowded or you get into an accident with an illegal alien with no insurance or even a license, your views on all of this will change. If the federal government isn't going to do something about it, then the states are going to have to. And while the proposed actions aren't the best, it beats doing nothing.

There, I said it, I feel better.
[/quote]

Cosign on the profiling!!! I can't count how many times I've been harassed in a department store because they think I'm going to steal something. In fact, while they were paying very close attention to me in a music store, I watched 2 little blond girls with a[b] big ass duffle bag[/b] trying to steal a Limp Bizkit cd. I went up to the clerk desk and said. "While you were watching me, did you know there are 2 little blonde girls with a HUGE black duffle bag behind the pillar trying to steal a Limp Bizkit cd????? Her dumb ass still didn't believe me until I pointed them out even though there were only 3 customers total in the store (me and the 2 blonde girls). I bet she felt like a complete retard. That place went out of business shortly afterward. But anyway, there are certain places I won't shop based on the treatment I've received. When I'm driving, I make sure I have my license, registration, and proof of insurance.

Besides, I find it funny how this country profiles the hell out of Blacks, when the real thieves can walk into a business (or start one) with nothing but a briefcase and steal millions of dollars[b] RIGHT UNDER THE NOSES OF[/b] millions and millions of people. Does Enron, and Bernie Madoff ring the bell? And what about all of these CEO's who conviently "stepped down" and received multi million dollar severance packages for doing a shitty job as the employees lose theirs?

[/rant] Edited May 4, 2010 by thatonethere

[Pretender85]

All i can say is it will not be shocking if a lawsuit case worms its way up to the Supreme Court sometime this year over this. If it were solely up to me, I would say grant amnesty to the people here already and start fixing up our border security...seeing as it is the government's fault in the first place for not adding to the border patrol when they know full well what is going on down in Mexico that is driving half of these people here in the first place. Not to mention Reagan giving the illegals amnesty last time and not upping the guard..it isn't like there aren't people looking for work who wouldn't take that job. They hire practically anyone/thing lol.

But then again I hear the going is rough down in AZ as far as taxes/jobs go..and a lot of people approve of the measure...so I can't say too much without actually seeing the problems down there. I just wish there were a better way to handle the whole situation, but I don't see anything viable due to the cost it would take to go any other route besides shippin them back or amnesty. I only have a bone to pick because I have a few spanish friends down that way who are legal immigrants, and it seems unfair to them..because as a LE major myself, I can guarantee the lot of them will be getting hassled by police monthly, if not more often. I know it's just going to look so bad because there are ALWAYS a few officers who treat people unfairly based on race/age/whatever. but..

My hope is that the police departments down there handle these types of stops professionally and courteously, and that they don't abuse the power this law gives them, or i hope that we fix the damn border! lol

[mushrat]

Amnesty merely means we can't do anything about you so we're going to let you stay. That is not the way. If they are going to grant amnesty to illegal aliens then lets grant amnesty to every other non-violent offender presently in jail. Why discriminate against our own citizens while telling a bunch of illegal aliens it's ok to break the law. Also, if we start granting amnesties every time it becomes an issue we don't want to really deal with, it will encourage MORE illegal aliens to enter the country so they can be here for the next great amnesty to roll around.

Does it bother me even though I had relatives in Germany forced to wear yellow Starts of Davids on their clothes? You bet. Do we need to start doing something about our borders, you bet. If your friends in AZ who are legal citizens don't like it, let them move to a friendlier state. If AZ suddenly sees a drain of legal citizens because of this law then they may have to re-think, but in the mean time, as long as the federal government want to sit on its ass then I think we should support states who are trying to tackle the problems themselves.

BTW, the minute we have a Nation ID card I'm moving to another country...as long as I can take my Firearms with me.


(I enjoy a good political discussion. I hope i have not offended anyone with my comments. If I have....tough. )

[Charley]

I am sorry I just want to ask something. why dose everyone seem to think they dont pay taxes? to get a job that pays anything in this country you need a ss number and even if they pay for one that was produced via the black market they still pay taxes under that number.

now i know what your going to say they get paid under the table. but that is actually quite hard the only people that get paid under the table (for the most part) are earning below minimum wadge (thats why there paid under the table) and if you earn that little you dont even qualify to pay income tax regardless of where you were born.

[Rani]

[quote name='mushrat' date='04 May 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1273023494' post='466675']
Amnesty merely means we can't do anything about you so we're going to let you stay. That is not the way. If they are going to grant amnesty to illegal aliens then lets grant amnesty to every other non-violent offender presently in jail. Why discriminate against our own citizens while telling a bunch of illegal aliens it's ok to break the law. Also, if we start granting amnesties every time it becomes an issue we don't want to really deal with, it will encourage MORE illegal aliens to enter the country so they can be here for the next great amnesty to roll around.

Does it bother me even though I had relatives in Germany forced to wear yellow Starts of Davids on their clothes? You bet. Do we need to start doing something about our borders, you bet. If your friends in AZ who are legal citizens don't like it, let them move to a friendlier state. If AZ suddenly sees a drain of legal citizens because of this law then they may have to re-think, but in the mean time, as long as the federal government want to sit on its ass then [b]I think we should support states who are trying to tackle the problems themselves.[/b]

BTW, the minute we have a Nation ID card I'm moving to another country...as long as I can take my Firearms with me.


(I enjoy a good political discussion. I hope i have not offended anyone with my comments. If I have....tough. )
[/quote]

We did that once. I believe they still call it the War of Northern Aggression in the Carolinas.

Hey, I'm all in favor of anything that demands the federal government get off their asses. But I'm just careful (or paranoid) enough to avoid states in which there's an open door policy on potential abuse of power. But then I'm a descendant of only two races to actually be racially profiled to the point of imprisonment on US soil. I'm not going to go along with anything that even remotely opens that door again against anyone. That being said, if China can build the Great Wall all those centuries ago, why can't we do the same damn thing? Beats the badly patrolled open prairie free for all we've going going on now.

'Rani

[Rani]

[quote name='Charley' date='04 May 2010 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1273024150' post='466677']
I am sorry I just want to ask something. why dose everyone seem to think they dont pay taxes? to get a job that pays anything in this country you need a ss number and even if they pay for one that was produced via the black market they still pay taxes under that number.

now i know what your going to say they get paid under the table. but that is actually quite hard the only people that get paid under the table (for the most part) are earning below minimum wadge (thats why there paid under the table) and if you earn that little you dont even qualify to pay income tax regardless of where you were born.
[/quote]

They pay taxes, and never get any of the money back in benefits because they don't dare try and claim them. I have to wonder if a former employer of mine was right when he once said that without all that unclaimed money our retirement systems would have long ago been bankrupt. He believed the federal government intentionally supported illegal labor. I have nothing that proves him wrong.

'Rani

[K1024]

[quote name='Rani' date='04 May 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1273037977' post='466709']
[quote name='mushrat' date='04 May 2010 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1273023494' post='466675']
Amnesty merely means we can't do anything about you so we're going to let you stay. That is not the way. If they are going to grant amnesty to illegal aliens then lets grant amnesty to every other non-violent offender presently in jail. Why discriminate against our own citizens while telling a bunch of illegal aliens it's ok to break the law. Also, if we start granting amnesties every time it becomes an issue we don't want to really deal with, it will encourage MORE illegal aliens to enter the country so they can be here for the next great amnesty to roll around.

Does it bother me even though I had relatives in Germany forced to wear yellow Starts of Davids on their clothes? You bet. Do we need to start doing something about our borders, you bet. If your friends in AZ who are legal citizens don't like it, let them move to a friendlier state. If AZ suddenly sees a drain of legal citizens because of this law then they may have to re-think, but in the mean time, as long as the federal government want to sit on its ass then [b]I think we should support states who are trying to tackle the problems themselves.[/b]

BTW, the minute we have a Nation ID card I'm moving to another country...as long as I can take my Firearms with me.


(I enjoy a good political discussion. I hope i have not offended anyone with my comments. If I have....tough. )
[/quote]

We did that once. I believe they still call it the War of Northern Aggression in the Carolinas.

Hey, I'm all in favor of anything that demands the federal government get off their asses. But I'm just careful (or paranoid) enough to avoid states in which there's an open door policy on potential abuse of power. But then I'm a descendant of only two races to actually be racially profiled to the point of imprisonment on US soil. I'm not going to go along with anything that even remotely opens that door again against anyone. That being said, if China can build the Great Wall all those centuries ago, why can't we do the same damn thing? Beats the badly patrolled open prairie free for all we've going going on now.

'Rani
[/quote]


it would actually be much simpler than building a wall. its pretty cheap to send satillites into space, and i think we have the technology to have live video streams that are high enough resolution to watch the border. then all you need is some dudes to watch those tvs, and some unmanned drones with speakers that say "get out or the next thing youll see is the inside of a prison cell" not that hard really.

thought yall would get a kick out of this:

[img]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b158/iexiak/IMAG0081.jpg[/img]

facebook was doing a protest thing so i thought id join in...i didnt look illegal enough though so i kicked it up a notch.

[Pretender85]

That picture is great..you look like something from space